Tatyana Prokofieva

[Suz]

I watched a russian news show bit on youtube about socionics last night, where Prokofieva and this other guy were sort of summarizing socionics. I liked most of it. At one point they were giving little summaries of each type and how they manifest. Granted a little blurb like those will be grossly oversimplified, but I thought she did a great job with the alphas and betas, an ok job with the gammas, but a terrible job describing the deltas. I didn't think she did justice at all to IEE.

She basically said "IEE is someone you want as a salesperson, to convince people to buy things. They are like the gypsies who are so perceptive of little aspects about people that most dont notice. Huxley was able to convince the world to accept Darwin's theory that humans originated from monkeys. Who knows if that's really true, but that belief remains to this day." first of all what a gross generalization of the roma. Secondly, IEEs are too up front to be that cunning. We are terrible with secrets! speaking for myself I would find sales to be a highly stressful ambiance, and totally against my nature. And I am really only convincing if i feel strongly about the cause myself.

Anyway, makes me wonder what Prokofieva's type is. Obviously not delta, i'm thinking. Anyone know?

[xerx]

This interview?

[Suz]

No it was one where they were all sitting down. It was a 12-part thing on youtube (i hope this link shows up ok, my work computer has an old version of IE that doesn't support youtube well):

[Gilly]

God I love the sharp sounds in Russian. All the "zzz" and "ts" and "sk"...sounds like cutting meat with a sword.

[xerx]

She self types as ILE.

[Beautiful sky]

"IEE is someone you want as a salesperson, to convince people to buy things. They are like the gypsies who are so perceptive of little aspects about people that most dont notice. Huxley was able to convince the world to accept Darwin's theory that humans originated from monkeys. Who knows if that's really true, but that belief remains to this day."

That's true of the IEE I've met

Tatyana is a P type...that's all I can see. She looks like an ILE

[Suz]

ILE makes a lot of sense considering her perspective on the types.

And maritsa, we all know how you type

[FDG]

Wow, I'd be extremely offended, a type compared to gypsyes? That's rather horrible, esp. coming from an eastern european...

[Pa3s]

God I love the sharp sounds in Russian. All the "zzz" and "ts" and "sk"...sounds like cutting meat with a sword.

Yeah, it sounds cool and it's not even hard to read if you got the Cyrillic alphabet. But grammar is a real pain! Someone said the sound of Russian would be similar to German, well I don't know... I guess I can't judge this.

[Suz]

Wow, I'd be extremely offended, a type compared to gypsyes? That's rather horrible, esp. coming from an eastern european...

I know, moreover she seemed to compare the type to the bad stereotypes of gypsies (even to call them gypsies is already derogatory--they call themselves roma). I AM really offended. She did not do justice to the essence of IEE at ALL. She was going on and on about the EIIs being such awesome psychologists, whereas IEE is the one called "psychologist"!!

[Galen]

She basically said "IEE is someone you want as a salesperson, to convince people to buy things. They are like the gypsies who are so perceptive of little aspects about people that most dont notice. Huxley was able to convince the world to accept Darwin's theory that humans originated from monkeys. Who knows if that's really true, but that belief remains to this day."

Wow, Russians are terrible at socionics

[Sol]

Obviously not delta, i'm thinking. Anyone know?

she thinks her is ENTP. maybe it is so

[Sol]

Someone said the sound of Russian would be similar to German, well I don't know... I guess I can't judge this.

There are more closer in sound, - Russian is one of Slavonic languages (outside of ex-USSR, the most close is Bulgarian).

[Rick]

I was a poor salesman. You can't just give an IEE some crap to sell and expect him to convince people to buy it. An IEE can only sell what he believes in and decides to sell. Of course, that is true of many types. The successful IEEs I know would never be interested in selling anything other than their personal hobby topics that they believe in strongly.

I can give her some slack because she had to formulate her thoughts on the fly, which usually leads to oversimplifications.

Apparently Prokofieva does not believe in evolution! "That belief remains to this day" -- my goodness, how silly of us moderns to "believe" that humans might be genetically related to apes. I am curious what her version of the story is.

Unfortunately, socionics, as a pseudo/quasi/pre-science, has attracted a lot of people in Russia/Ukraine who have arbitrarily rejected various areas of established science, particularly big stuff like evolution. This attitude makes it easier for them to feel good about operating outside of the scientific community using non-scientific methods. This seems to be true of many or most of the big names in socionics.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

I was a poor salesman. You can't just give an IEE some crap to sell and expect him to convince people to buy it. An IEE can only sell what he believes in and decides to sell.

This may come as a suprise to you but you are not the benchmark of all IEEs.

fwiw, and on that, i've known some good IEE salespeople, and by salespeople I mean in this first case the literal sense. Those ones have had good skills of 'connection' for want of a word.

Also - perhaps saleperson doesn't have to be meant in the literal sense. Some SLIs can be quite stubborn for instance, and IEEs are one of the few people who can 'sell' something to them to get them to oblige/change their behaviors, thoughts w/e it is etc.

The successful IEEs I know would never be interested in selling anything other than their personal hobby topics that they believe in strongly.

This might be possible, but what of the ones who do believe in what they sell? Maybe that's what Prokofieva was referring to, i'm not *quite* sure of your criticism here.

I can give her some slack because she had to formulate her thoughts on the fly, which usually leads to oversimplifications.

Yeah, even with some thought i'm not sure it is the easiest to summarise a type with so few words, even with many of them like eg type descriptions in a way which will please everyone.

Apparently Prokofieva does not believe in evolution! "That belief remains to this day" -- my goodness, how silly of us moderns to "believe" that humans might be genetically related to apes. I am curious what her version of the story is.

I'm curious - where do you get this from?

Huxley was known as Darwins Bulldog, and Huxley is typically typed as IEE.

As far as I know evolution is a theory, now to clarify, I think it's the most likely theory there is and it sure does make a lot of sense - and as time has passed the evidence to support evolution grows and grows - however, it is still a theory - i'm not quite sure how it is 'proved', maybe there's something to that now that i'm not aware of.

However - ESP. at the time that Darwin released his Origin of Species, it sure was more of a 'theory' then than what it is now. Huxley took on board this theory and was able to push it to such an extreme that there are many people who believe this theory so utterly that there's no doubt in them for it. Now if that isn't a salesperson then tell me what is!

So, to clarify, where exactly does Provokieva say that she does or doesn't believe in evolution? What she says is, "Huxley was able to convince the world to accept Darwin's theory that humans originated from monkeys. Who knows if that's really true, but that belief remains to this day." - Prokofieva is not saying whether SHE PERSONALLY believes in it either way, she is stating a fact - that who knows it if it really is true, but people believe it is true (and Darwin played a huge part in this).

I suppose an anology is that thousand or two years ago, people believed in for instance, polytheism, like the ancient germanic and celtic tribes - of course back then the evidence supported that it was most likely the case - but there is a difference between absolutely believing in something and acknowledging it is the most likely.

And I use the religion analogy to show how some people believe in evolution.

Unfortunately, socionics, as a pseudo/quasi/pre-science, has attracted a lot of people in Russia/Ukraine who have arbitrarily rejected various areas of established science, particularly big stuff like evolution. This attitude makes it easier for them to feel good about operating outside of the scientific community using non-scientific methods. This seems to be true of many or most of the big names in socionics.

Well, here you go - you jump to believe that Prokofieva doesn't believe or think evolution is the most valid explanation for species, to put her into some crack-pot label of someone who automatically rejects various areas of established science, and...the implication along with it is that Prokofieva doesn't use scientific methods and feels good about operating outside any scientific method.

Shame on you Rick if I may say so - this is a problem I see in you unfortunately - jumping to conclusions about things then carrying on from that projection. I suppose I felt like commenting on it because i've seen you do it before, and because I get the *impression* that people listen to you, and it's just...unethical to me from a factual and an ethical stance to make such accusations about people like you do here based on not really looking at things....unless perhaps I am missing something?

Anyway, i'm not entirely sure you do it on purpose...but it does make me think it is wise to take with pinch of salt that which you report back from meetings/discussions etc with other socionists, Russian or otherwise of course, although esp Russian of course due to difficulty for most of us to obtain sources etc.

Well, for better of worse I thought it should be said, lol.

[Suz]

I was a poor salesman. You can't just give an IEE some crap to sell and expect him to convince people to buy it. An IEE can only sell what he believes in and decides to sell. Of course, that is true of many types. The successful IEEs I know would never be interested in selling anything other than their personal hobby topics that they believe in strongly.

I can give her some slack because she had to formulate her thoughts on the fly, which usually leads to oversimplifications.

Apparently Prokofieva does not believe in evolution! "That belief remains to this day" -- my goodness, how silly of us moderns to "believe" that humans might be genetically related to apes. I am curious what her version of the story is.

I actually identify very strongly with the part in bold u stated Rick. To be convincing, I have to truly believe in the product or the message i'm delivering, and feel strongly that these products/messages will contribute to people's benefit somehow. I can't just fake it. I tend to speak in sort of a monotone to begin with (and i'm definitely not too eloquent).

I too sort of had the similar thought as you Rick, that Prokofieva didn't believe in evolution. It was more how she put it than what she said, that made Huxley out to be a pusher of a ridiculous theory. I mean, I can't say i'm completely 100% sure about the entire theory of evolution either. But she is making a conjecture from this that the IEE characteristic is to convince people to believe things that aren't necessarily true, in a dishonest sense. And I think that's a misrepresentation. If Huxley was so convincing about it, that means he must have believed in it himself.

[Suz]

Also - perhaps saleperson doesn't have to be meant in the literal sense. Some SLIs can be quite stubborn for instance, and IEEs are one of the few people who can 'sell' something to them to get them to oblige/change their behaviors, thoughts w/e it is etc.

Now this makes a lot of sense, cyclops, and I think is likely true from my experience. (remains to be seen though. . .)

I think though, that Prokofieva just doesn't really understand the essence of IEE, from the analogies she made. I dont think she captured SLI that well either. That is purely my point. Of course, if she's ILE, she can't be expected to know these types as well as we do. Which is why I asked what her type was.

[Beautiful sky]

I was a poor salesman. You can't just give an IEE some crap to sell and expect him to convince people to buy it. An IEE can only sell what he believes in and decides to sell. Of course, that is true of many types. The successful IEEs I know would never be interested in selling anything other than their personal hobby topics that they believe in strongly.

I can give her some slack because she had to formulate her thoughts on the fly, which usually leads to oversimplifications.

Apparently Prokofieva does not believe in evolution! "That belief remains to this day" -- my goodness, how silly of us moderns to "believe" that humans might be genetically related to apes. I am curious what her version of the story is.

Unfortunately, socionics, as a pseudo/quasi/pre-science, has attracted a lot of people in Russia/Ukraine who have arbitrarily rejected various areas of established science, particularly big stuff like evolution. This attitude makes it easier for them to feel good about operating outside of the scientific community using non-scientific methods. This seems to be true of many or most of the big names in socionics.

You are not IEE, you don't have the social/interpersonal skills or the warmth that IEE exhude, you've done a great job at not being able to type people well and have made me very mad...

SLI and IEE can sell your underware, that's how good they are with people and how fun they are.

[Marie84]

You are not IEE, you don't have the social/interpersonal skills or the warmth that IEE exhude, you've done a great job at not being able to type people well and have made me very mad...

SLI and IEE can sell your underware, that's how good they are with people and how fun they are.

How dare he not ooze the external supply of you so desperately value, stupid Rick and his Te values!

[Suz]

How dare he not ooze the external supply of you so desperately value, stupid Rick and his Te values!

[Suz]

You are not IEE, you don't have the social/interpersonal skills or the warmth that IEE exhude, you've done a great job at not being able to type people well and have made me very mad...

SLI and IEE can sell your underware, that's how good they are with people and how fun they are.

Being good with people doesn't necessarily mean pushing people to buy things. In fact, having a sense of being good with people also has an underlying current of not wanting to cheat them, Maritsa.

[Sol]

socionics, as a pseudo/quasi/pre-science

Socionics is hypothesis. Socionics is not a science until its theories will get an experimental proof. But it's not pseudo-science because there is no proof that its theories are wrong.

attracted a lot of people in Russia/Ukraine who have arbitrarily rejected various areas of established science, particularly big stuff like evolution.

I do not know anyone in socionics who disagree with evolution theory, and I doubt that Prokofieva does so. I do not know facts, that reasonable part of people who is known in typology have "rejected various areas of established science", - most there are adequate, and your assertion "this seems to be true of many or most of the big names in socionics" is totally bullshit.

using non-scientific methods

Science is what proven objectively. Almost everything in Jungian typology is non-scientific still. And any theory of connection types with evolution is not an exclusion.

Non-scientific content in socionics exists because to make experiments wich could proof or disproof socionics theories and methods money are needed. There are many psychologists who knows about Jungian typology and socionics, interested in it, but they need significant money and time to research typology.

[Rick]

To follow up on my post and the comments on it:

1) My impression was that Prokofieva's comment on evolution was intended to cast doubt on the theory and suggest that Huxley and Darwin might not have been correct after all, but that Huxley still did a good job at convincing people of it.

2Cyclops:
Systems of explanations in science are called "theories." That doesn't mean that scientists are not sure of them. Evolution is as well-supported an explanation as exists in science. Prokofieva is not the only prominent socionist I've heard cast doubt on evolution theory. Maybe many ILEs, IEIs, and ILIs are predisposed to concocting alternative theories, who knows.

2) I maintain that socionics is pseudoscience as defined by Wikipedia (Pseudoscience - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). I disagree with Sol that "Non-scientific content in socionics exists because to make experiments wich could proof or disproof socionics theories and methods money are needed." If all socionists were given $1 million to conduct experiments, what would change? Socionics as it exists is inherently unprovable, and no amount of money can change that.

To engage professionally in a pseudoscientific field, one must develop a worldview that somehow justifies asserting things that are unprovable in principle. In my opinion, many professional socionists develop a skeptical attitude towards academic science in general, to help justify their choice of profession. I've seen plenty of this at the socionics conferences in Kiev. Those who have a truly scientific approach typically do not choose to earn money with socionics.

[silke]

Anyway, makes me wonder what Prokofieva's type is. Obviously not delta, i'm thinking. Anyone know?

Prokofieva types as ILE and supposedly her husband is her dual, SEI. They got married before she knew anything about socionics, and that was something that sparked her interest in it. She is good friends with Udalova, SLI, they raised their kids together, and began researching socionics together back in late 80s-early 90s when there was no available material about it. On their types: http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t...ory:Socionists

[Kalinoche buenanoche]

tatyannnaagjhhh reminds me of a nice junior high teacher who once got starry eyed by my handwriting
she said that it was very mature for 13

i was supposefly the best student of the class and the comment made me feel extra pressured to live up to best studebt thung uhuhuh next year it all changed because classes merged and i was not best student anymore but was thought of as the ex best student ;;;>>>>

[Delilah]

She looks LII to me, tho can't exclude ILE (i was reading smth of her recently and having a hard time making sense of it, not to say that it makes no sense just that it seemed not easy to understand from my own lense)