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Thread: Freedom and other words

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    Quote Originally Posted by ananke View Post
    Different types use the same words to express different values.

    How would your quadra/other quadras define words like :
    - Freedom
    - Creativity
    - Judgemental
    - Successful
    For alpha:

    FREEDOM: Being able to decide on your own terms what to do and how you'll live your life rather than having someone else dictate those terms for you.

    CREATIVITY: Being able to synthesize disparate elements to create something new. Thinking outside the box. I think alphas emphasize the originality aspect of creativity moreso than other quadras.

    JUDGEMENTAL: Someone who is quick to come to conclusions on things even with insufficient evidence. Someone who is holds firmly to their opinion and is unwilling to appreciate or accept other points of view.

    SUCCESSFUL: This one is the hardest of the four to describe. I see it primarily as living a life that gives you personal fullfillment. Also, having made a positive impact on others and society. Its more than just having alot of money and prestige, which I think is more in line with beta/gamma, although it can certainly include that. After all if you make more money, its easier to be able to do the things sometimes that would bring you fullfillment.
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    I think Warrior-Librarian's descriptions of Freedom and Creativity are Great. For Judgemental and Successful I'm going to make a few changes

    JUDGEMENTAL: Someone who is quick to come to conclusions on things even with insufficient evidence or justification. Someone who is holds firmly to their opinion and is unwilling to appreciate or accept other points of view.

    (I think more than just evidence, there needs to be sound reasoning. People can have evidence against someone based on unfounded principles, which I consider to be judgemental.)

    SUCCESSFUL: I see it primarily as living a life that gives you personal fullfillment.

    (I really think that alone is the fundemental definition of success for Alphas. In my opinion, Alpha definitions of Judgement and Success are based on an underlying emphasis on Freedom and Creativity. We want people to be free to live their lives and emphasize the individual. As a by-product judgement is based on limiting the restriction of the individual and success is about recognizing the individual and their personal fulfillment.
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    I like your definitions, WL.

    I'd say

    FREEDOM: Deciding which commitments to take on board, and having flexibility to negotiate the terms based on changing needs of the various parties.

    CREATIVITY: Developing !!NEW AND EXCITING!! ways of looking at, thinking about, or doing things. Newness and change in thought. Kicking the status quo to the curb and doing the impossible!

    JUDGEMENTAL: I like WL's definition here.

    SUCCESSFUL: Being content, and then some: being happy, all within a comfortable existence. If you cut the hassle out of your life, you're a lot more successful at life than business suits with 7-figure incomes.

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    Not sure I'm speaking for my quadra, but I'd say..
    Freedom
    - WL's definition
    Creativity
    - being able to create as many options out of a limited number of resources as possible
    Judgmental
    - not allowing for the existence of various contexts/intents etc
    Successful
    - a person succeeding in what they want to do
    "Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."

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    My "personal" definitions, rather than Alpha:

    Freedom: The ability to choose

    Creativity: The ability to see possible choices

    Judgmental: Of assigning different levels of value to the choices of oneself and/or others

    Successful: Of having completed one's goal or goals

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    Freedom: the capacity to do as one chooses. This is a somewhat beta-influenced description insofar as it does relate to power/capacity/etc. However, I think the capacity to do as one chooses is more than "I'm strong and I can push you around if I want," because that's stupid. The capacity to do as one chooses is the capacity to do difficult things: if I lift weights, I gradually develop the freedom to lift really heavy weights, whereas I was not free to do so before I started lifting weights. But that's sort of an idiosyncratic personal definition.

    Creativity: the capacity to surprise. Again, focus on power/capacity. But this is basically stolen directly from Emerson, or Harold Bloom on Emerson.

    Judgmental: Tending to judge prematurely, inaccurately, and overzealously, especially in a moral sphere. Excessive focus on one undesirable element of behavior or personality.

    Successful: Having achieved personal aims of reasonable difficulty (that is, if your aims are to sit on your couch and sponge off your parents, well, that's not really reasonably difficult, unless your mom is like, Medea.)
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ananke View Post
    Different types use the same words to express different values.

    How would your quadra/other quadras define words like :
    - Freedom
    - Creativity
    - Judgemental
    - Successful
    Not speaking for the entire quadra, but I'd define them as:

    freedom: Unrestricted in ability to act according to your desires. Basically, if you want to do something, you're able to attempt it without crippling external restrictions hindering you.

    creativity: mental flexibility. Ability to draw on existing resources to create what one needs or desires.

    judgemental: ranking a person's worth based on choices they make that are contrary to or overstep your standards or boundaries. It's impossible not to be judgemental in some way. Everyone has limits on what they find permissible or desireable. Judgement isn't always a negative.

    successful: achieving what you set out to achieve.

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    Freedom: without being subject to any undue restraints or restrictions and knowing that you won't be hung, imprisoned, for your choices
    Creativity: thinking outside the box
    Judgmental: criticism without perspective
    Successful: when you can live with yourself and not be stressed out about finances or physical things in life

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    Pinocchio, if you had you would have found and even greater obvious pattern.

    For example,

    Vero, Rubicon, Warrior's are virtually the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinocchio View Post
    VS.




    Interesting. Apparently, the people I type as Fi or Fi-valuers define success in connection to their persona, to the self, or self-sufficiency. Fe/Fe-valuers to what they want, what they like or makes them happy, without being an inside matter. Makes sense, I'd say.
    So you now type me as an Fi-valuer now after just telling me you thought I was LSI (an Fe valuer)? Your inconsistency is funny.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinocchio View Post
    Interesting. Apparently, the people I type as Fi or Fi-valuers define success in connection to their persona, to the self, or self-sufficiency. Fe/Fe-valuers to what they want, what they like or makes them happy, without being an inside matter. Makes sense, I'd say.

    I would not exclude some Betas an Deltas to be the other way around, though, namely Beta NFs and Delta STs, just based on my observations, not the theory.
    Silverchris clearly is in the "accomplish something" group, though he gave another restriction: that it be "reasonably difficult." "Personal fulfillment" and "contentment" could also be synonyms. Dynamicism's could be -valuing and Maritsa's -valuing, though I'm not too sure about those.

    I find Gulanzon's answer most pleasing, though I agree more with Rubicon/Matthew/Squark: Success is succeeding at whatever you're trying to do (without silverchris's requirement that your goal be good enough).
    Last edited by Brilliand; 06-17-2010 at 02:30 AM. Reason: Punctuation error



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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    Vero, Rubicon, Warrior's are virtually the same.
    No, I don't think so.. because I don't agree that personal fulfillment is relevant in terms of success. I mean you could succeed in what you were aiming to do, and simultaneously be hit with an overwhelming feeling of "omg I feel so empty, life is meaningless" which drives you to suicide .. but I'd still classify that as success. :-p
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubicon View Post
    No, I don't think so.. because I don't agree that personal fulfillment is relevant in terms of success. I mean you could succeed in what you were aiming to do, and simultaneously be hit with an overwhelming feeling of "omg I feel so empty, life is meaningless" which drives you to suicide .. but I'd still classify that as success. :-p
    And then, of course, there's being successful in killing oneself. Over 80% of suicide attempts don't succeed. Depressed people tend not to be very good at finishing what they start.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MatthewZ View Post
    And then, of course, there's being successful in killing oneself. Over 80% of suicide attempts don't succeed. Depressed people tend not to be very good at finishing what they start.
    Yeah. Vicious cycle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinocchio View Post
    Lol, this is one of the funnies things to think about .
    And here I figured that there would be at least 5 posts before someone would prove more morbid than I.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinocchio View Post
    Yes, depends... that looks a bit contradictory. I think people usually choose between the two, either great aims (externally evaluated by everyone) or personal aims (internal evaluation), this combination sounds unfamiliar to me.

    silverchris agrees with the view that we know that some things relate to some quadras, and we may be biased towards them when we identify with those quadras. In this case it is the view that Betas are content after accomplishing great deeds, or difficult tasks. He knows better this one, I don't know what to say, both are plausible and my choice is based on the probability that the "difficulty" to be the bias than the other way around.
    No, he just wants to allow for plenty of freedom without justifying lazy slobs, which Rubicon, Matthew and I have boldly done. That "he's identifying with X quadra, so we need to ignore all of his behavior that's related to that quadra" view is dangerous, imo... a worse selection bias than the problem that it's trying to correct.

    By the way, I wonder if we should make an exception for changing your goal after you have already succeeded. If the new goal and the old goal are mutually exclusive, then this results in an instant failure - a retroactive one, in the mind of that person. <further contemplation snipped> No, that creates insoluble logical conundrums. Original intent it is.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    By the way, I wonder if we should make an exception for changing your goal after you have already succeeded. If the new goal and the old goal are mutually exclusive, then this results in an instant failure - a retroactive one, in the mind of that person. <further contemplation snipped> No, that creates insoluble logical conundrums. Original intent it is.
    I went on a journey inside your mind.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubicon View Post
    I went on a journey inside your mind.
    Huhwhat? My browser's page history says I didn't edit that post.



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    I can't speak for an entire quadra, so here's my take on those words:

    Freedom: A lack of restraint applied by either external or internal force.
    Creativity: The ability to apply or recreate an object/idea to serve a different purpose than the object/idea was originally intended for.
    Judgmental: Judging someone or something negatively.
    Honestly, that's always how I've come to understand the word. Historically whenever someone has said "I'm not judging you" I've always interpreted it as "I'm not making a negative judgment about you."
    Successful: Having met or surpassed one's intended goal or goals.
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    Freedom - rationale
    Creativity - meaning
    Judgmental - closed-minded or mentally sick (possibly due to physical handicap)
    Successful - content

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    Huhwhat? My browser's page history says I didn't edit that post.
    oh just the desultory turn your mind took... nvm :-p
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    That "he's identifying with X quadra, so we need to ignore all of his behavior that's related to that quadra" view is dangerous, imo... a worse selection bias than the problem that it's trying to correct.
    Potentially an interesting thought experiment, but yes, ultimately a "dangerous" method of typing. I'm pretty sure I'm IEI but I did type myself ENFP in MBTI, for what that's worth. And it is possible that I added the difficulty marker because I believe myself to be IEI. But I think it is more likely that I explicitly stated the difficulty marker because I believe myself to be IEI, whereas I would have believed it regardless. Because whether I'm IEI or IEE or QXZ, if your goal was walking across the room, and you attained your goal of walking across the room, well, I'm just not that impressed with you.

    I would hate a definition of successful that ties you down to feeling happy. Lots of successful people are unhappy. It's silly to pretend that Bill Gates isn't successful just 'cause he's not happy, or much less that say, Hart Crane isn't successful just 'cause he was so unhappy that he killed himself. Of course he was successful, he was overwhelmingly successful.

    In fact, I would say the level of difficulty of the goal, rather than the level of happiness resultant from it (almost any consequentialist marker for anything will tend to be trash, imo) is the best measure of the level of success.

    A lazy bum can't be successful (without changing so that he is no longer a lazy bum). That's, like, the definition of lazy bum.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    In fact, I would say the level of difficulty of the goal, rather than the level of happiness resultant from it (almost any consequentialist marker for anything will tend to be trash, imo) is the best measure of the level of success.

    A lazy bum can't be successful (without changing so that he is no longer a lazy bum). That's, like, the definition of lazy bum.
    I can agree with that - the harder the goal, the greater the degree of success, on a sliding scale. However, looking at success as a binary thing (successful vs. not successful), I prefer to see it as the different between zero success and any success at all, whereas you seem to set a threshold - too small of a success doesn't count. While I wouldn't really like to count small successes either, I'm wary of thresholds because different people tend to set them differently. If you're going to view successes as great or small, you pretty much have to keep it as a sliding scale, not a binary system.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinocchio View Post
    It happens when you're tired .
    Hence me checking my browser's page history. :wink:



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    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    I can agree with that - the harder the goal, the greater the degree of success, on a sliding scale. However, looking at success as a binary thing (successful vs. not successful), I prefer to see it as the different between zero success and any success at all, whereas you seem to set a threshold - too small of a success doesn't count. While I wouldn't really like to count small successes either, I'm wary of thresholds because different people tend to set them differently. If you're going to view successes as great or small, you pretty much have to keep it as a sliding scale, not a binary system.
    Hmmm. That's kind of a good point. I might agree. But I think it's really a question of whether you are more uncomfortable with letting people who don't deserve to get in to the successful category get in (aristocratic? beta?) or shutting out people who deserve to get in to the successful category (democratic? alpha?).
    Not a rule, just a trend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    Hmmm. That's kind of a good point. I might agree. But I think it's really a question of whether you are more uncomfortable with letting people who don't deserve to get in to the successful category get in (aristocratic? beta?) or shutting out people who deserve to get in to the successful category (democratic? alpha?).
    You seem to be looking at this in terms of making the category as useful as possible, whereas I'm focusing on making the category as valid (or perhaps, precise) as possible. I think this is a difference between ST and NT, and by extension, Aristocratic and Democratic.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    You seem to be looking at this in terms of making the category as useful as possible, whereas I'm focusing on making the category as valid (or perhaps, precise) as possible. I think this is a difference between ST and NT, and by extension, Aristocratic and Democratic.
    I'd buy that.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

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