The Pluses and Minuses

[silverchris9]

Okay, I need someone to clear up a few questions for me about the plus and minus version of socionics, you know, with -Se and +Se, etc. So, I get that it can be useful insofar as it basically denotes which other function the IM in question is blocked with. But after that I really don't get it, so I have questions.

1) Why + and - as the symbols? What is the rule governing which Se (blocked with Ti or blocked with Fi) is + and which one is -? Or are the symbols just arbitrary, and it would be just as easy to label it *Se and ^Se?

2) What is the deal with one's superid functions being different + and - than one's dual's ego functions? That is, when I tried to read up a little on the plus-and-minus-socionics, I was very confused by the fact that IEI superid is, I think, +Se and -Ti, whereas SLE ego is, I think, -Se and +Ti. What does that signify/mean/imply?

3) How do I know how to assign + and -? Like, how would I figure out if it's Beta Ni is + and Gamma Ni is -, or Beta Ni is - and Gamma Ni is +?

[Aiss]

1) Why + and - as the symbols? What is the rule governing which Se (blocked with Ti or blocked with Fi) is + and which one is -? Or are the symbols just arbitrary, and it would be just as easy to label it *Se and ^Se?

Symbols. Plus is expanding, Minus is reducing. Also IIRC, in model B -Se is in fact "-Se/+Si", etc. (these have fancy descriptions somewhere there, methinks).

For rule, see answer to (3).

2) What is the deal with one's superid functions being different + and - than one's dual's ego functions? That is, when I tried to read up a little on the plus-and-minus-socionics, I was very confused by the fact that IEI superid is, I think, +Se and -Ti, whereas SLE ego is, I think, -Se and +Ti. What does that signify/mean/imply?

IEI's superid is -Se +Ti. Blocks have the same polarity, always. There's no +Se -Ti.

3) How do I know how to assign + and -? Like, how would I figure out if it's Beta Ni is + and Gamma Ni is -, or Beta Ni is - and Gamma Ni is +?

SF and NT blocks have +NS and -TF - that is, internal with external results in plus irrational and minus rational. ST and NF have -NS and +TF.

The easier way to remember is that Democratic quadras have (+) irrational and (-) rational elements, Aristocratic quadras (-) irrational and (+) rational.

[silverchris9]

Symbols. Plus is expanding, Minus is reducing. Also IIRC, in model B -Se is in fact "-Se/+Si", etc. (these have fancy descriptions somewhere there, methinks).

For rule, see answer to (3).

Oh, yeah, that's right. What do "expanding" and "reducing" mean? I mean, generally, I'm sure in actuality they're as complicated as every term in socionics.

IEI's superid is -Se +Ti. Blocks have the same polarity, always. There's no +Se -Ti.

Cool. I must have remembered that wrong. But -Se = -Se/+Si?

SF and NT blocks have +NS and -TF - that is, internal with external results in plus irrational and minus rational. ST and NF have -NS and +TF.

The easier way to remember is that Democratic quadras have (+) irrational and (-) rational elements, Aristocratic quadras (-) irrational and (+) rational.

Got it! Thanks.

Now, what is the use of this system besides having a fancy way to say Beta Ti and Alpha Ti? Which, if I apply the rule correctly is +Ti (beta) and -Ti (alpha).

[silverchris9]

There's a typo in that article (it says - = rather than ). How do I go in and fix it?

[Aiss]

What typo?

Now, what is the use of this system besides having a fancy way to say Beta Ti and Alpha Ti? Which, if I apply the rule correctly is +Ti (beta) and -Ti (alpha).

+Ti means Beta-or-Delta Ti, so it's a fancier way of saying "Ti blocked with Se". I, for one, appreciate the simplicity and elegance of it.

Also, from my point of view it seems to make sense that democrats expand perception and aristocrats expand judgment. Another thing about plus/minus is that it's in sync with process/result dichotomy (+ base element is process, - is result), called evolutionary/involutionary in context of forms of thinkings. Process/result also means "in right supervision ring"/"in left supervision ring", and in this way +/- is also related to quadra progression (+ elements progressively and - elements regressively).

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[krieger]

I would say it actually emphasizes more subtle differences while retaining basic similarity (i.e. -Ni is still closer to +Ni than to either flavour of Ne, making Beta and Gamma meet there).

Under the model B, delta is said to favor +Te and -Ti. So that means the similarity between delta and alpha would be attributed to the judging rather than perceiving axis.

Also, between ESTj and INTj, for example, instead of basing the relation on shared valued (both Si/Ne valuers), they would base it on a shared strength (Te+/Ti- strength).

[Aiss]

And also Plus and minus - Wikisocion.

[krieger]

+ means left in the sequence N T S F N relative to the function it is paired with
- means right in said sequence relative to the function it is paired with

NT: N+ T-
ST: T+ S-
SF: S+ F-
NF: F+ N-

The main reason they are useful is that they allow you to explain the small cycle Reinin dichotomies in terms of function properties:
Taciturn: +Object, -Field
Narrator: +Field, -Object
Aristocrat: +Judging, -Perceiving
Democrat: +Perceiving, -Judging
Process: +Accepting, -Creating (or producing, creative, or whatever)
Result: +Creating, -Accepting
Positivist: +Empowering, -Limiting (yes, you need Limiting/Empowering for this one too)
Negativist: +Limiting, -Empowering

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

I think it's all bullshit, frankly. It has no core ground for me. The +Se/-Se model B function theory. Hitta likes it but I mean, I never really saw the point. It has just like no objective oomph holding everything together.

[Crispy]

Well... Is it accurate?

[silverchris9]

Oh, okay. You guys have definitely demonstrated that it is valid and potentially useful, but I don't really like or care about the Reinin dichotomies right now, so I'm going to continue to ignore the pluses and minuses. But at least I'll understand what other people mean when they use them!

[stanprollyright]

+/- is redundant but it can be a good way to think about the differences in the way elements are used based on what they are blocked with.

[tcaudilllg]

My belief is that +/- refers to whether when using a function we ask ourselves how it applies to us or the world first. Although the subjective position is always '+', minus functions always refer to the subjective position first. Plus functions always refer to the objective situation first, and then the subjective position as the means to do something about it. This is why '+' is involved in the "process" of taking action, while '-' tries to see the "result" of actions already taken.

Basically,
+ = process ("what should be done, what I'm going to do")
- = result ("what I have done, what happened because of it")

However, it's more complex than that, because subtype comes into the equation as well. "Result" and "process" most often describe how accepting subtypes use the functions; producing subtype use +,- differently.

+/- (producing subtype)
+ = "What I may do, how the world will change"
- = "what is the situation is, how I can cope"

[JohnDo]

Why do people people on this forum always complicate the easy things?
+ just means you strive for something.
- just means you avoid something.


+Ti = organization and logic
-Ti = avoiding chaos and logical mistakes

+Te = efficiency and stability
-Te = avoiding financial disasters

+Fi = good relations
-Fi = avoiding bad relations

+Fe = having fun
-Fe = avoiding misery

+Ni = taking risks
-Ni = avoiding danger

+Ne = breakthroughs and revolutions
-Ne = avoiding stagnation

+Si = having comfort
-Si = avoiding discomfort

+Se = striving for power
-Se = avoiding powerlessness




Examples:

* Betas want to have fun, no matter if it causes misery for themselves or others (+Fe).
* Alphas also have fun, of course, but they rather try to avoid misery for themeselves and others (-Fe).

*Alphas strive for revolutions and scientific breakthroughs (+Ne).
*Deltas also like unusual ideas but they rather try to avoid complete stagnation (-Ne).

*Gammas take risks no matter if it causes a global economy crisis (+Ni).
*Betas also take risks sometimes but they tend to avoid dangerous situations (-Ni).

[krieger]

The +/- signs also emphasize the use of types rather than functions, because it weakens the notion that similarity between adjacent quadras can be attributed to shared functions.

[Gilly]

The thing is, if you actually OBSERVE people, you CAN see similarities between neighboring quadra members that are very clearly related to their shared functions; I've had quite a few friends for whom I've teetered between SLE and SEE, especially my best friend; he's SEE, which is clear to me at this point in knowing him and knowing Socionics, but there are so many similarities between he and clear-cut SLEs that I know, right down to the bodily movements, that I can't feel bad for wavering a bit.

[Aiss]

The +/- signs also emphasize the use of types rather than functions, because it weakens the notion that similarity between adjacent quadras can be attributed to shared functions.

I would say it actually emphasizes more subtle differences while retaining basic similarity (i.e. -Ni is still closer to +Ni than to either flavour of Ne, making Beta and Gamma meet there).

[xerx]

The thing is, if you actually OBSERVE people, you CAN see similarities between neighboring quadra members that are very clearly related to their shared functions; I've had quite a few friends for whom I've teetered between SLE and SEE, especially my best friend; he's SEE, which is clear to me at this point in knowing him and knowing Socionics, but there are so many similarities between he and clear-cut SLEs that I know, right down to the bodily movements, that I can't feel bad for wavering a bit.

I would say it actually emphasizes more subtle differences while retaining basic similarity (i.e. -Ni is still closer to +Ni than to either flavour of Ne, making Beta and Gamma meet there).

These.

[xerx]

Okay, I need someone to clear up a few questions for me about the plus and minus version of socionics, you know, with -Se and +Se, etc. So, I get that it can be useful insofar as it basically denotes which other function the IM in question is blocked with. But after that I really don't get it, so I have questions.

1) Why + and - as the symbols? What is the rule governing which Se (blocked with Ti or blocked with Fi) is + and which one is -? Or are the symbols just arbitrary, and it would be just as easy to label it *Se and ^Se?

+ =>> evolution. rapid social progress.
- <<= involution. careful social progress with periodic regression.

2) What is the deal with one's superid functions being different + and - than one's dual's ego functions? That is, when I tried to read up a little on the plus-and-minus-socionics, I was very confused by the fact that IEI superid is, I think, +Se and -Ti, whereas SLE ego is, I think, -Se and +Ti. What does that signify/mean/imply?

I think it's that you're receptive to your dual's output but generate the opposite sign.

So IEI would be receptive to -Se in their superid, but generate +Se if they ever try to use that function. There's some theoretical + - + - cycle in Model A that I kind find an explanation for.

It seems to suggest that semi-dual relations aren't all they're cut out to be, since you can sort of generate your semi-dual's base function and don't need it "as much" as your dual's.

3) How do I know how to assign + and -? Like, how would I figure out if it's Beta Ni is + and Gamma Ni is -, or Beta Ni is - and Gamma Ni is +?

+ = process.
- = result.
These are described here.

there is also another convention that Stratievskaya likes to use. Don't quote me on that though.
+ = positivist.
- = negativist.

And rarely you'll see +/- refer to mental/vital in Model A, respectively.

[Hitta]

Dur... I just saw this so I'm going to respond and have a lot of people disagree with me so here it goes.

Introverted
-Ti= Analysis, understanding why, getting to the core, understanding how everything fits together
+Ti= Common sense intelligence, accepting law of the land, systematization of a standard

+Fi= Universal compassion, non-discriminatory, equality, fear of focused intimacy, Mother Teresa complex
-Fi= Focused compassion, romantic idealism, flaw finding, need for perfect mate

+Ni= Views self as just a cog in society, ability to immerse identity with society, ability to lose identity into the group, spiritual neutrality
-Ni= Views self as "different", need for originality, spiritual thinking, imagination, wants to push the envelope

+Si= Need to explore the senses, ability to spiritualize the senses, exploration/sexual exploration
-Si= Neutrality to senses, sensual adaptability, apathy to changes in bodily state

Extraverted

+Te=Inability to accept results, obsessive compulsive behavior(the area of ocb depends on the perceiving function), economical perfection, constant adjustment (see-saw effect).
-Te= Focused, goal oriented, ability to set limits, knows what one wants.

+Fe= Isolated intimacy to the right person , focused relationships, exclusive.
-Fe= Fear of isolated intimacy, inclusive, neutral behavior, equality, non-judgmental, hard time showing different people different emotions/behaviors

+Ne= Views society as bland, feels separated, need to add something new to the world.
-Ne= Views society as being special, wants to be apart of the network, feels everything is perfect just the way it is

+Se= Willpower, routine, neutral to conditions,
-Se= Aggression, force, change, need to better things

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[krieger]

That's Ne+Ti and respectively Se+Ti. It's simply Ti applied to different things by different types.

lol; you just figured that out.

Part of the theories Hitta propones also claims Delta values Ti-, Alpha values Ni-, etc. It considers functions opposite in i/e and opposite in +/- "two sides of the same coin" or something like that.

My further take on it is that it puts INTj next to ESTj and ENFj, much in the same way a lot of people put INTj in a sequence between ISTj and INFj when discussing things like (quasi) type change. ISTj and INTj on one hand, and INTj and ESTj on the other, are equally far apart this way.

[krieger]

In other words, if Hitta's (or whomever he parrots) theories are right, and you want to create a "type change" cycle to represent temporary shifts in behavior, you might as well put

INTj --(shared Te+/Ti-)-> ESTj --(shared Se+/Si-)-> ISFj --(shared Fe+/Fi-)-> ENFj --(shared Ne+/Ni-)-> INTj

as

INTj --(shared Ti)-> ISTj --(shared Se)-> ISFj --(shared Fi)-> INFj --(shared Ne)-> INTj

Interestingly enough the former goes backwards on the quadra cycle relative to the latter.

Another way to simulate Hitta's claims without accepting his presentation is to attribute behaviors of progressivism to the Ti/Fe axis and conservatism/responsibility to the Te/Fi axis. You roughly end up attributing the same traits to the same types that way (at least where his idea of Ne+ vs. Ne- values are concerned).

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[krieger]

I'm writing this in a bit of a tired mental state so I should probably clarify my last post a bit...

What I meant to say is that Ne+/Ni- values in Hitta's model coincide with Ti/Fe values in the conventional model.
Likewise, Ti+/Te- values coincide with conventional Se/Ni values...
etc.

You can attribute each of his trait descriptions to a correlating conventional value group to get the same set of practical claims.

The only difference would be that the traits would be attributed to values relating to the opposite in Rational/Irrational compared to the conventional model. Ne+/Ni- values are the same as Ti/Fe values except in that they supposedly describe something "irrational" rather than "rational".

[tcaudilllg]

Hitta you're parroting what Gulenko says. There is a clear dividing line running down the characteristics you're mentioning in each of those functions.

[tcaudilllg]

That's Ne+Ti and respectively Se+Ti. It's simply Ti applied to different things by different types.

My god... he CAN be taught!

Forum IQ level... rising!

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[krieger]

Another thing about those shared function things...

Taciturn/Narrator is always equal between two types that share a "opposite side of coin" function. For example, Te+ and Ti- are both manifest in Taciturn types, whereas Te-/Ti+ are manifest in Narrator types.

A good way to name the functions may be:
Te+/Ti- = Tt (Taciturn Logic)
Te-/Ti+ = Tn (Narrator Logic)
Si-/Se+ = St (Taciturn Sensing)
Si+/Se- = Sn (Narrator Sensing)
Fe+/Fi- = Ft (Taciturn Ethics)
Fe-/Fi+ = Fn (Narrator Ethics)
Ni-/Ne+ = Nt (Taciturn Intuition)
Ni+/Ne- = Nn (Narrator Intuition)

One could also use a set of alternative symbols for left and right in the INTj -> ESTj -> ISFj -> ENFj -> INTj sequence. Cup (v) and hat (^) are my respective suggestions.

In the sequence INTj -> ESTj -> ISFj -> ENFj -> INTj, Taciturn/Narrator occupies the spot that Static/Dynamic would be in in the sequence INTj -> ISTj -> ISFj -> INFj -> INTj.

So, if anything in Hitta's model has merit, Taciturn/Narrator might have to be viewed as something on the same level as Static/Dynamic. Interestingly, this allows me to reject Object/Field (which I do) while still believing in Taciturn/Narrator.