View Poll Results: How would you rate Barrack Obama, as a person and president?

Voters
13. You may not vote on this poll
  • 10

    1 7.69%
  • 9

    0 0%
  • 8

    0 0%
  • 7

    5 38.46%
  • 6

    1 7.69%
  • 5

    3 23.08%
  • 4

    1 7.69%
  • 3

    0 0%
  • 2

    2 15.38%
  • 1

    0 0%
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 40 of 44

Thread: Barrack Obama (Betas Only)

  1. #1
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    3w4 sx/so
    Posts
    24,757
    Mentioned
    91 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Barrack Obama (Betas Only)

    What is your take on Barrack Obama? Rate him as a president and a person, and, if you are compelled, elaborate upon your opinion.

  2. #2
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    3w4 sx/so
    Posts
    24,757
    Mentioned
    91 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I rate him a 4. He is a complete puppet, that's for sure, and likely has little clue what he is doing on his own. He has some undeniable charisma, and I think he represents a proper, or at least honest, step towards the notion of the US President as a total figurehead, which can at least be seen as decent historical progress. However I think in that sense he is a step in the direction of "let's see how badly we have to dick around before we need to make some real changes again." So I suppose he's necessary and appropriate for America now; let's just hope he doesn't fuck it up too too much, and that next time round we are able to choose the readily available candidate who might actually make some progress at the reigns of this country: Ron Paul.

  3. #3
    Crispy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    2,097
    Mentioned
    17 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Sorry about not being a beta but I heard someone say RON PAUL! FUCK YEAH!
    ILI (FINAL ANSWER)

  4. #4
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    3w4 sx/so
    Posts
    24,757
    Mentioned
    91 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Damn straight. I think Ron Paul is definitely some Ti type, probably ILE-Ti 6w5 so/sp.

  5. #5
    Haikus
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    MI
    TIM
    IEI-Ni
    Posts
    10,060
    Mentioned
    223 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    I guess he's a 6. I agree with almost everything he says in fact, it seems like he repeats a lot of what I think. So I just think he's sort of a person with above average intellect and not much else. I think he's just a person who is as smart as everyone of us here.

    I guess what pisses me off is that, with all the political heads ranting and raving and going on and on about shit and the latest drama scare tactics of the week, the actual core world has actually changed very little. If I go out in society and just....live life, America is still the same Te-valuing, enneagram 3-valuing, extroverted-valuing, career-orientated, cover-up-your-feelings-for-the-sake-of-productivity nation that is always was. OMG HE ACTUALLY HAS A UNIQUE EMOTION, GIVE HIM A PROZAC SO HE CAN BE OUR SLAVE!

    So 'Change We Can Believe In' is more like Change We Can Stick Up Our Asses. Because in all truth things change very, very slowly- so slowly you don't realize them, despite all the ranting and raving. All the political BS talk is like just some mind control trick to keep people in place and stuck so they can control you better. The more you meditate and calm the shit down and go through life without any attachments, the more the illusions sort of all melt away and you can see more of how reality really is.

    The economy isn't even really that much different. It's all sort of a ruse. I mean seriously, it's the exact same society as it was years ago. And Obama's empty threats at 'taking down the big shots at Wall Street' is very pathetic, just an obvious ploy to keep the sheeple in line.

    All these naive middle class people talking about the economy are not knowing what they're talking about and watching stocks and just, going on about things when they don't know what they're talking about, it's just so sad. They're only being their own worst enemies and they don't even care, because they're attracted to the drama of it all. It's just BORING to me though. I never want to hear the word 'economy' again.

  6. #6
    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    UK
    TIM
    SLE-Ti
    Posts
    9,169
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I think he's a better man than he is a president, probably through no fault of his own. He's an EIE, and they're good orators, good at getting people to follow them into battle etc., but at the heart of it, they have way more idealism than practicality. I really do think getting LIEs to run countries is a good idea. Preferably with morally rigorous ESI wives.

  7. #7
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    3w4 sx/so
    Posts
    24,757
    Mentioned
    91 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    He is not a fucking EIE. Go to hell.

  8. #8
    crazedrat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    moon
    Posts
    4,885
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    The economy is the same - and that is a miracle. If you knew anything about the economic crisis you would realize that. 2 years ago, by all expert opinions, the dollar should have been completely worthless by now.
    INTp

  9. #9
    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    3,107
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I don't really have a sense of what he's doing as a policymaker, if anything (but I certainly don't think he has any less influence on policy than George Bush Jr. did). But as a politician, as a public figure, I rate hm at least a 7. He's charismatic and obviously intelligent. That said, I really cannot tell what actual influence he has on policy except as someone who a) has some control over his own staff (he seems like a fairly effective leader in that regard), and b) can stand on a platform and say, "The American People(tm) want THIS!" And I think that is an important and useful role.

    Speaking of the role of the President historically, that's been kind of a funny path. Because we've spent 200 years giving the President more power every year, practically, and it's as if by giving the President all the powers, we've given him no powers, because it's impossible for one human being to possibly to do everything that the Office of the President is theoretically supposed to do. But he has to look like he does everything. And the only way to look like you do everything is to actually do nothing, or at least, comparatively little. But don't I think he's absolutely a puppet... like I said, no more than Bush, and not much more than Bill Clinton.

    As a person, I bet Obama's a really smart guy. I don't know if we'd be bffs for ever and ever and ever, but I bet he'd be good to have a conversation with.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

  10. #10
    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    3,107
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by crazedratXII View Post
    The economy is the same - and that is a miracle. If you knew anything about the economic crisis you would realize that. 2 years ago, by all expert opinions, the dollar should have been completely worthless by now.
    But not really the president's miracle, I don't think. The path was dictated, essentially, by the Bush administration (once you start stimulus packages, you're not going to stop), and then... I mean, Obama made the car czar thing happen. I guess he didn't make any major missteps in the immediate handling of the crisis, unless you believe doing the stimulus at all was a mistake, and if it was a mistake, it certainly wasn't a mistake that was going to be corrected when a rather far right Republican left office for a rather far left Democrat who somehow seems like a centrist. And as for the long term consequences of the regulatory bill, well, I'll leave that for historians or myself-in-ten-to-twenty-years to determine.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

  11. #11
    Creepy-Pied Piper

    Default

    Removed at User Request

  12. #12
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2005
    TIM
    D-LSI-Ti 1w9 sp/sx
    Posts
    11,586
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    He is one of the worst, most out-of-touch presidents we have ever had, and his presidency seem like it has merely galvanized the conservative ideology against liberalism and will possibly result in conservative domination of Washington for the next couple of decades.

  13. #13
    what is essential is invisible to the eye fox's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Space
    TIM
    ILI
    Posts
    12,802
    Mentioned
    367 Post(s)
    Tagged
    9 Thread(s)

    Default

    Decent person, heart seems to be in the right place, a visionary, amazing charisma, inflated ego, seems emotionally driven from his past. Not an ideal leader, imo.
    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    betas should be kept in zoos for children to stare and throw pop corn at.

  14. #14
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2005
    TIM
    D-LSI-Ti 1w9 sp/sx
    Posts
    11,586
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Starfall View Post
    Decent person, heart seems to be in the right place, a visionary, amazing charisma, inflated ego, seems emotionally driven from his past. Not an ideal leader, imo.
    He is emotionally vacant to the point that it's disturbing to listen to him talk. I don't see how you can make any determination about his heart other than that he has none, but is rather a soulless automaton.

  15. #15
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    3w4 sx/so
    Posts
    24,757
    Mentioned
    91 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    He is emotionally vacant to the point that it's disturbing to listen to him talk. I don't see how you can make any determination about his heart other than that he has none, but is rather a soulless automaton.
    Yes. Thank you.

    I wanted to be president of the united states when I was in high school. Then I got to college, and realized that it would not be I who was president, but rather merely my face and voice.

  16. #16
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    3w4 sx/so
    Posts
    24,757
    Mentioned
    91 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    He is one of the worst, most out-of-touch presidents we have ever had, and his presidency seem like it has merely galvanized the conservative ideology against liberalism and will possibly result in conservative domination of Washington for the next couple of decades.
    This is probably too extreme...I think he is enough of a populist that he will most likely be forced into doing at least a few redeeming things during his presidency, maybe pull a Jimmy Carter and end the Iraq War in the last 24 hours of his term or some shit.

  17. #17
    jughead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    NC
    TIM
    IEI
    Posts
    883
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    you beta rationals are always liking crazy ass moves with lots of dramatic Ni and se.
    You obviously don't like him and this is a backlash at him for possibly being IEI and if so the easiest type to change him to would be EII and blacklist him.
    But, frankly the only president I've lived with (which is only 3 that i can remember in my lifetime) who I've liked has been clinton because he did seem more like a real person despite being a politician who covers his ass.
    It could be a generation gap too.
    Then again he could be EII and you detest his unvalued Fe and Ni saying he's a souless robot.

  18. #18
    Blaze's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    5,725
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    ^truth

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

  19. #19
    crazedrat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    moon
    Posts
    4,885
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    What I think about Obama is tainted by the knowledge he is functioning in a corrupt political system. He's very good at convincing you hes genuine.. but I'm weary of how much I can really trust that. His position just implies to me corruption. Most of the problems I have with him are different than the typical criticisms thrown his way, which seem ignorant. I don't like that he uses his mastery of speech to brainwash people. In terms of his policy decisions.. I agree with the broad strokes of what he's trying to do, because I think the changes are necessary. But when it comes down to execution of said task he sort of fails. The best example is with the lack of oversight on bailouts and overspending. Bailouts were necessary to some degree to avoid catastrophic breakdown of the economy, but their execution was a disaster. Alot of the funds were wasted and overspent. Also, there was too much reliance on bailouts and not enough compromise. There should of been more mergers and government buyouts happening. I also think we should of fell on our faces a little harder than he let us.. the economy should of tanked a little bit. Instead it just seems the same .. which is unnatural, considering.
    Last edited by crazedrat; 06-06-2010 at 03:43 PM.
    INTp

  20. #20
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2005
    TIM
    D-LSI-Ti 1w9 sp/sx
    Posts
    11,586
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by crazedratXII View Post
    What I think about Obama is tainted by the knowledge he is functioning in a corrupt political system. He's very good at convincing you hes genuine.. but I'm weary of how much I can really trust that. His position just implies to me corruption. Most of the problems I have with him are different than the typical criticisms thrown his way, which seem ignorant. I don't like that he uses his mastery of speech to brainwash people. In terms of his policy decisions.. I agree with the broad strokes of what he's trying to do, because I think the changes are necessary. But when it comes down to execution of said task he sort of fails. The best example is with the lack of oversight on bailouts and overspending. Bailouts were necessary to some degree to avoid catastrophic breakdown of the economy, but their execution was a disaster. Alot of the funds were wasted and overspent. Also, there was too much reliance on bailouts and not enough compromise. There should of been more mergers and government buyouts happening. I also think we should of fell on our faces a little harder than he let us.. the economy should of tanked a little bit. Instead it just seems the same .. which is unnatural, considering.
    lol

  21. #21
    crazedrat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    moon
    Posts
    4,885
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    lol free market autistic
    INTp

  22. #22
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2005
    TIM
    D-LSI-Ti 1w9 sp/sx
    Posts
    11,586
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by crazedratXII View Post
    lol free market autistic
    lol kid who isn't familiar with reality but pretends he is even though he's not fooling anybody

  23. #23
    crazedrat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    moon
    Posts
    4,885
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Please, educate me..
    INTp

  24. #24
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2005
    TIM
    D-LSI-Ti 1w9 sp/sx
    Posts
    11,586
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by crazedratXII View Post
    Please, educate me..
    Happily.

    Bailouts create moral hazard. If a bank knows it will receive a government bailout in case of insolvency, it will be less hesitant to issue loans to high risk customers, which is exactly what the government wants them to do. Those high risk people are often minorities whose votes can be bought with favors, so it is politically advantageous for politicians to pass a law that results in banks issuing loans to these people. These loans, many of which will be defaulted on, are financed with money that could have been invested in something that creates jobs. Instead, it is squandered on unsustainable handouts so that corrupt bureaucrats can get reelected.

    As to the economic catastrophe that you claim was averted by the bailouts, what you're not considering is the fact that we would already be in full recovery if there had never been any bailouts or artificially low interest rates. It would have been a sharp dip that probably would have lasted around a year and a half. In the Depression of 1920, which was more severe than the Great Depression, the government cut spending and taxes. A year and a half later the economy was in full swing.

    So now, instead of having the whole mess behind us, we've got this massive deficit, slow recovery, and a precariously positioned currency all looming before us. A bailout is like a massive fix of heroin to a recovering addict: "Well if we didn't administer the heroin, he would be experiencing horrible withdrawal symptoms." Yes, but withdrawal is precisely what he needs to go through to overcome his addiction. At this rate, you're just postponing the inevitable and wasting money to do so.

    Here's another analogy. Suppose you're trying to quit smoking because it's unhealthy and because you're broke. You are barely making ends meet and have been maxing out credit cards to pay for cigarettes (this actually does happen with smokers). The best thing for you to do is to go cold turkey, enduring the week or two of cravings in order to get past the addiction and stop spending thirty dollars a week on cigarettes. So you decide that you'll quit and use the would-be cigarette money to pay down your credit card debt. However, before you can begin your marathon, your financially strapped mother maxes out two credit cards on fifty cartons of Marlboro Reds and gives them to you for free, saying that she had to do it so that you wouldn't have to go through the unpleasant experience of nicotine withdrawal. Sure, now you don't have to feel like shit for two weeks, but it's at the expense of your longterm health and money that your mother doesn't have. And now that you know your mother will bail you out, you are less careful about how you spend your own money, since you're not the one paying paying the consequences, which further destabilizes your mother's financial situation.

  25. #25
    crazedrat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    moon
    Posts
    4,885
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    The bailout is more like antibiotics with terrible side effects administered to a patient with a severe infection.
    The financial crisis was a different matter than the great depression. For one thing, we live in a global economy nowdays. If the dollar had bottomed out other countries would of pulled their money out of it. Had that happened, the dollar would of inflated like crazy, and it would never fully recover. The prospect of a full, quick recovery you're giving isn't real. China was discussing openly about moving onto a silver standard. They had concrete plans to that and could have had it happen in about a month. They didn't, and the bailouts are responsible for that.
    Also, in comparing immediate decline Vs. gradual decline, there are some advantages to gradual decline which you didn't mention. It's true, generally, a gradual decline gives a bigger dip over time. But since this dip happens slowly it allows for people and organizations to adjust to the changes with planning and precision, which is invaluable compared with a catastrophic change. Basically it's like losing your home suddenly vs. being told you'll lose it in six months. The time you have to plan for contingencies is invaluable, and it's the same for the corporations.
    INTp

  26. #26
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2005
    TIM
    D-LSI-Ti 1w9 sp/sx
    Posts
    11,586
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    OK, before I correct all of that nonsense, I want to be clear about something: I don't think you actually know anything about economics. I think you literally make everything up on the spot, without any hard knowledge about economics or history, depending on your ability to make what you say sound plausible. Put more simply, you make up Ti arguments on the spot, hoping that if they are coherent enough, people will agree with you. Once again, you're ignoring whether or not your "data" applies to reality.

    Also, criticizing me by saying things like "I consider myself an expert after reading one biased book" is just your Te PoLR. First of all, even if I did only read one biased book, knowledge is knowledge, correct is correct, and I am correct. Second, I've so far read approximately a dozen books on economics, several of them by Keynesians. Third, I am an economics major and I go out of my way to learn more about the subject -- far beyond the curriculum in the classroom. I am still not an expert, but I know far more than the likes of you.


    The financial crisis was a different matter than the great depression. For one thing, we live in a global economy nowdays. If the dollar had bottomed out other countries would of pulled their money out of it. Had that happened, the dollar would of inflated like crazy, and it would never fully recover. The prospect of a full, quick recovery you're giving isn't real. China was discussing openly about moving onto a silver standard. They had concrete plans to that and could have had it happen in about a month. They didn't, and the bailouts are responsible for that.
    It's really hard to respond to these types of paragraphs in which you basically just jump all over the place, making random intuitive leaps that have little justification. For instance, the first three sentences are almost totally disjointed and have no obvious logical relationship to one another. (Also, the constructions "would of" and "should of" are grammatically nonsensical. What you mean to say are "would have" and "should have." I've already corrected you on this once before. You should be able to remember something so easy and basic.)

    Anyway, the fact that the financial crisis was "a different matter" from the Great Depression isn't a meaningful statement. Obviously both events were different from one another, but that isn't helpful when trying to determine the kinds of policies needed to correct both situations. Neither is it helpful to say that we live in a global economy now as opposed to the days of the Great Depression. Both assertions are just isolated data fragments (that may or may not be true) with no consequential purpose. The rest of the paragraph is pretty much the same series of baseless unrelated assertions disguised as a point-by-point thesis.

    For one thing, we live in a global economy nowdays.
    OK... and? Does basic economics only apply to isolated nations but not to the planet as a whole?

    If the dollar had bottomed out other countries would of pulled their money out of it.
    Why would the dollar have bottomed out as a result of good fiscal policy? If anything, the dollar is at much greater risk of bottoming out now as opposed to two years ago.

    Had that happened, the dollar would of inflated like crazy, and it would never fully recover.
    Why would it need to fully recover? Part of our country's fiscal problem is that the dollar's reserve status allows us to endlessly refinance our debt instead of pay it off. The problem with doing this is that foreign countries will eventually stop buying our securities, though it is impossible to predict exactly when this will happen.

    The prospect of a full, quick recovery you're giving isn't real.
    Except you've presented no evidence to back up your position on this issue.

    China was discussing openly about moving onto a silver standard. They had concrete plans to that and could have had it happen in about a month. They didn't, and the bailouts are responsible for that.
    If China did that, it would be good for us, because we would be forced to save money and actually produce goods. Cause and effect wins.

    Also, in comparing immediate decline Vs. gradual decline, there are some advantages to gradual decline which you didn't mention. It's true, generally, a gradual decline gives a bigger dip over time.
    And a longer dip. Everyone is worse off in the end (i.e., there is no net benefit).

    But since this dip happens slowly it allows for people and organizations to adjust to the changes with planning and precision, which is invaluable compared with a catastrophic change.
    That makes sense in theory, but in practice the result of gradual declines is that more people are worse off because the precise adjustments made by companies are made with the idea of weathering the storm in mind, not with bouncing back from recession into economic growth. This leads to greater and longer-lasting joblessness and economic stagnation. It is far better for everyone in society if the economy is allowed to make its sharp dip and rebound quickly and decisively. The market as a whole adjusts to recessions better and more efficiently by itself than it does when the government intervenes.

    Basically it's like losing your home suddenly vs. being told you'll lose it in six months. The time you have to plan for contingencies is invaluable, and it's the same for the corporations.
    That analogy is bogus. Corporations have plenty of time to watch and analyze the market as well as preemptively formulate contingency plans in the event of fiscal emergencies. This goes back to what I was saying about moral hazard, where companies that expect the government to bail them out are more likely to act recklessly instead of practicing good fiscal policies. You're basically saying it's better to use taxpayer money to subsidize bad behavior in the banking system than to let these banks operate under the powerful incentive of self-preservation, which they don't need to worry about when Big Bro promises to come to the rescue if banks run out of money.
    Last edited by discojoe; 06-08-2010 at 11:05 PM.

  27. #27
    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    EII land
    TIM
    EII INFj
    Posts
    22,740
    Mentioned
    531 Post(s)
    Tagged
    6 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    He is emotionally vacant to the point that it's disturbing to listen to him talk. I don't see how you can make any determination about his heart other than that he has none, but is rather a soulless automaton.


    This is why I think he's Fe valuing and Se ego block holder

    Ne PoLR would suggest that he is skeptical of new and novel ideas/possibilities and leans towards creating systems, wouldn't you think?

    Soulfull automations would be more likely of feeler types...like Redbaron and myself, something of Fi and Fe holders right?
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 06-08-2010 at 07:32 PM.

  28. #28
    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    3,107
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Um, DJ, I read your first post, and it seems awfully full of analogies and metaphors itself. I understand that you consider yourself more knowledgeable about economics than crazed, and you probably are, but... I dunno, your criticism of him seems to basically boil down to I'm right and you're wrong. Actually your posts are both very Ni-heavy as well as Ti-heavy: you're trading modes of conceptualizing an occurrence as much as you're trading logical arguments.

    Also, some of the things you stated very factually, especially
    As to the economic catastrophe that you claim was averted by the bailouts, what you're not considering is the fact that we would already be in full recovery if there had never been any bailouts or artificially low interest rates.
    seem to me to be subject to heavy debate, not just in the general population and the politicians, but among economists. I suppose you subscribe to a particular system or school of economics that makes this prediction (now that I think about it, economics is a very Gamma NT type of field. If any of my ILI friends liked math, I would tell them to go become economists), but certainly there are other schools, even if, for one reason or another, you consider them to be erroneous?

    Anyway, I think crazed is right in a couple of regards, but especially this: economics is predicated on rational behavior. But in a global economy, or, whatever the label, an economy (and a media) that is more thoroughly interdependent than in the 1920s and 30s, the potential for irrational behavior is significantly multiplied. Regardless of what logical economic theories posit, the potential of a more severe global reaction was there, and we cannot say with any certainty what would or would not have happened had America used different fiscal and monetary policy, if only because people are more unpredictable than economic theory.

    Also, something I think (from my admittedly small knowledge of economics) that some economists tend to ignore is the idea that even given the potential or expected risks, there are some economic conditions that we simply cannot accept, even for a short time. Even if something seems to be the more rational option, to some degree we are ethically unable to allow things to get as bad as they could, and perhaps should get, in order to "fix the system." To me, it's like the difference between 400,000 people eating one or two meals a day but surviving, and 4,000 people starving to death (okay, that's a melodramatic example, but you get the drift). Or it's like those morality questions: if you have to push Bob onto the train tracks and let him get run over in order to save Suzy and Jacob, do you do it? You might say yes in theory, but then when you physically have to push Bob into the oncoming train? Isn't it a little bit like that when you're a politician in Washington, and you have to let all the companies fail and people lose jobs, etc., and not attempt to do something to help on the grounds that well, it'll make the whole economy healthier when we get out of this. To continue an earlier metaphor, isn't it possible to die of withdrawal symptoms?

    I guess that was really just another list of ways we might try to conceptualize the financial crisis, but hopefully it was a moderately coherent one.

    Second, I've so far read approximately a dozen books on economics, several of them by Keynesians.
    Really? Do you find any of their conclusions or ideas useable or do you tend to reject the whole Keynesian way of thinking? This is a subject I'm interested in myself, since I'm not really prepared to be a for real Milton Friedman economic libertarian (I don't know if that's the right term for Milton Friedman, but you get the idea), but I suppose I can see problems with usual government economic policy since the New Deal (which has been heavily Keynesian, no?)

    (Also, the constructions "would of" and "should of" are grammatically nonsensical. What you mean to say are "would have" and "should have." I've already corrected you on this once before. You should be able to remember something so easy and basic.)
    I really like betas. Is it bad to like fighting? I dunno. But seriously, betas are just so much better than every other quadra. Sigh. (disclaimer: yes, of course I know there is no best quadra. It's just fun to say).
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

  29. #29
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2005
    TIM
    D-LSI-Ti 1w9 sp/sx
    Posts
    11,586
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    Um, DJ, I read your first post, and it seems awfully full of analogies and metaphors itself. I understand that you consider yourself more knowledgeable about economics than crazed, and you probably are, but... I dunno, your criticism of him seems to basically boil down to I'm right and you're wrong. Actually your posts are both very Ni-heavy as well as Ti-heavy: you're trading modes of conceptualizing an occurrence as much as you're trading logical arguments.
    I'm really sort of at a loss as to how to explain things to crazedrat. If I explain things in terms of A > B > C, his response is basically along the lines of "You don't know that. The universe could explode at any second, so there is no objective truth, except for the things that I arbitrarily have decided are correct." He basically randomly takes a side, then justifies it by saying that objective reality is an illusion. If he's going to outright refuse to be realistic, there's not a whole lot I can say or do, except be mean to him as punishment for being ignorant.

    Also, some of the things you stated very factually, especially


    seem to me to be subject to heavy debate, not just in the general population and the politicians, but among economists. I suppose you subscribe to a particular system or school of economics that makes this prediction (now that I think about it, economics is a very Gamma NT type of field. If any of my ILI friends liked math, I would tell them to go become economists), but certainly there are other schools, even if, for one reason or another, you consider them to be erroneous?
    Sorry, no gray line here for you to hide behind. I subscribe to Austrian economics, also known as economics. The other so-called "schools" are utter nonsense, and I can fully and irrefutably elaborate on precisely why this is the case.

    Anyway, I think crazed is right in a couple of regards, but especially this: economics is predicated on rational behavior. But in a global economy, or, whatever the label, an economy (and a media) that is more thoroughly interdependent than in the 1920s and 30s, the potential for irrational behavior is significantly multiplied. Regardless of what logical economic theories posit, the potential of a more severe global reaction was there, and we cannot say with any certainty what would or would not have happened had America used different fiscal and monetary policy, if only because people are more unpredictable than economic theory.
    Please list an example of precisely what you mean by "irrational behavior" and how the potential for it has increased because of global economics. I think you are inventing terms and ascribing to them whatever meaning you choose so as to control the discussion, a common INFp tactic, I have observed.

    Also, something I think (from my admittedly small knowledge of economics) that some economists tend to ignore is the idea that even given the potential or expected risks, there are some economic conditions that we simply cannot accept, even for a short time.
    Like what? Be extremely specific. Remember that you are talking about economic conditions.

    Even if something seems to be the more rational option, to some degree we are ethically unable to allow things to get as bad as they could, and perhaps should get, in order to "fix the system." To me, it's like the difference between 400,000 people eating one or two meals a day but surviving, and 4,000 people starving to death (okay, that's a melodramatic example, but you get the drift).
    Well, I wouldn't outright abolish medicare since doing so would kill people, but you could easily phase it out in an ethical manner that minimizes the negative impact. Similarly, there are all kinds of practical, ethical ways to fix broken aspects of the economy. It's not always a matter of biting the bullet, though it is that way in the matter of this country's fiscal situation.

    Or it's like those morality questions: if you have to push Bob onto the train tracks and let him get run over in order to save Suzy and Jacob, do you do it? You might say yes in theory, but then when you physically have to push Bob into the oncoming train? Isn't it a little bit like that when you're a politician in Washington, and you have to let all the companies fail and people lose jobs, etc., and not attempt to do something to help on the grounds that well, it'll make the whole economy healthier when we get out of this. To continue an earlier metaphor, isn't it possible to die of withdrawal symptoms?
    Either/or fallacy. Fuck off.

    I guess that was really just another list of ways we might try to conceptualize the financial crisis, but hopefully it was a moderately coherent one.
    No, it wasn't. It was really annoying to read.

    Really? Do you find any of their conclusions or ideas useable or do you tend to reject the whole Keynesian way of thinking? This is a subject I'm interested in myself, since I'm not really prepared to be a for real Milton Friedman economic libertarian (I don't know if that's the right term for Milton Friedman, but you get the idea), but I suppose I can see problems with usual government economic policy since the New Deal (which has been heavily Keynesian, no?)
    Keynesianism is 100% coherent, but it doesn't apply to the actual way that the economy operates. I read about it so that I can more eloquently refute it.

  30. #30
    what is essential is invisible to the eye fox's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Space
    TIM
    ILI
    Posts
    12,802
    Mentioned
    367 Post(s)
    Tagged
    9 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    there's not a whole lot I can say or do, except be mean to him as punishment for being ignorant.
    lol
    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    betas should be kept in zoos for children to stare and throw pop corn at.

  31. #31
    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    EII land
    TIM
    EII INFj
    Posts
    22,740
    Mentioned
    531 Post(s)
    Tagged
    6 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    I'm really sort of at a loss as to how to explain things to crazedrat.
    Hummm...interesting...


    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    If I explain things in terms of A > B > C, his response is basically along the lines of "You don't know that. The universe could explode at any second, so there is no objective truth, except for the things that I arbitrarily have decided are correct."
    algorythms....


    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    He basically randomly takes a side, then justifies it by saying that objective reality is an illusion. If he's going to outright refuse to be realistic, there's not a whole lot I can say or do, except be mean to him as punishment for being ignorant.


    I don't think he says thet objective reality is an illusion as much as he says that his reality is the only objective reality to consider.

  32. #32
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2005
    TIM
    D-LSI-Ti 1w9 sp/sx
    Posts
    11,586
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    I don't think he says thet objective reality is an illusion as much as he says that his reality is the only objective reality to consider.
    But his counter-arguments always amount to "Yeah, but what if everyone gets AIDS? Then what?" Unless what I say neatly plans for every possible contingency, it is worthless in his mind. He has no common sense, no concept of when to stop nitpicking at nothing and finally admit that something is correct.

    Basically, he denies what is real because his filter for determining what does and does not make sense is extremely narrow, to the point that reality almost becomes meaningless.

  33. #33
    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    EII land
    TIM
    EII INFj
    Posts
    22,740
    Mentioned
    531 Post(s)
    Tagged
    6 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    But his counter-arguments always amount to "Yeah, but what if everyone gets AIDS? Then what?" Unless what I say neatly plans for every possible contingency, it is worthless in his mind. He has no common sense, no concept of when to stop nitpicking at nothing and finally admit that something is correct.

    Basically, he denies what is real because his filter for determining what does and does not make sense is extremely narrow, to the point that reality almost becomes meaningless.
    sure, logic is either things that are objective or subjective right?...objective reality is real reflection of reality based on logic...subjective is only that which makes sense to the person, even if the logic itself is meaningless and not real.

    Two realities, two logics

    One that's real and one that exists in the person's head...

  34. #34
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2005
    TIM
    D-LSI-Ti 1w9 sp/sx
    Posts
    11,586
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    sure, logic is either things that are objective or subjective right?...objective reality is real reflection of reality based on logic...subjective is only that which makes sense to the person, even if the logic itself is meaningless and not real.

    Two realities, two logics

    One that's real and one that exists in the person's head...
    Uh, yeah, that actually makes sense.

    Also, crazedrat is consciously aware of his own belief that there is no objective reality, and he uses this belief to discount what I say in order to justify siding with whatever system he happens to prefer.

  35. #35
    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    EII land
    TIM
    EII INFj
    Posts
    22,740
    Mentioned
    531 Post(s)
    Tagged
    6 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    Uh, yeah, that actually makes sense.

    Also, crazedrat is consciously aware of his own belief that there is no objective reality, and he uses this belief to discount what I say in order to justify siding with whatever system he happens to prefer.
    Yeah if you don't have a good handle on objective reality and don't want to then you can only live and base your conclusions on your personal feelings for things...his personal feelings. That's neither a value of Te nor a ego block function of Te...What's left is to live life on concepts/IDEAS which are Se and Ne... or Si and Ni...

    Not types...
    ESTj, ENTj
    INFj, ISFj

    ESFp, ENFp
    INTp, ISTp

  36. #36
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2005
    TIM
    D-LSI-Ti 1w9 sp/sx
    Posts
    11,586
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Yeah if you don't have a good handle on objective reality and don't want to then you can only live and base your conclusions on your personal feelings for thing...these personal feelings. That's neither a value of Te nor a ego block function of Te...
    I agree with the gist of what you're saying, but I think Te types can also fall into the trap of being so "practical" that they see no point in trying to fix anything.

    I believe that crazedrat is also a typical, emotionally unstable liberal who is practically incapable of rational thought.

    Here's an interesting study from Zogby:


    Who is better informed about the policy choices facing the country—liberals, conservatives or libertarians? According to a Zogby International survey that I write about in the May issue of Econ Journal Watch, the answer is unequivocal: The left flunks Econ 101.

    Zogby researcher Zeljka Buturovic and I considered the 4,835 respondents’ (all American adults) answers to eight survey questions about basic economics. We also asked the respondents about their political leanings: progressive/very liberal; liberal; moderate; conservative; very conservative; and libertarian.

    Rather than focusing on whether respondents answered a question correctly, we instead looked at whether they answered incorrectly. A response was counted as incorrect only if it was flatly unenlightened.

    How did the six ideological groups do overall? Here they are, best to worst, with an average number of incorrect responses from 0 to 8: Very conservative, 1.30; Libertarian, 1.38; Conservative, 1.67; Moderate, 3.67; Liberal, 4.69; Progressive/very liberal, 5.26.

    Americans in the first three categories do reasonably well. But the left has trouble squaring economic thinking with their political psychology, morals and aesthetics.
    crazedrat's response will some nitpicky bullshit about how Zogby can't know what it means to be economically unenlightened.

  37. #37
    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    EII land
    TIM
    EII INFj
    Posts
    22,740
    Mentioned
    531 Post(s)
    Tagged
    6 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    I agree with the gist of what you're saying, but I think Te types can also fall into the trap of being so "practical" that they see no point in trying to fix anything.

    I believe that crazedrat is also a typical, emotionally unstable liberal who is practically incapable of rational thought.

    Here's an interesting study from Zogby:
    Emotional thought is still thinking based on feelings. INFp, when you think about it, is at the extreme end of all things "irrational"

    Essencially you can't enlighten anyone who you can't emotionally convince to follow suit.

  38. #38
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2005
    TIM
    D-LSI-Ti 1w9 sp/sx
    Posts
    11,586
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    Emotional thought is still thinking based on feelings. INFp, when you think about it, is at the extreme end of all things "irrational"
    Perhaps, but to be fair to them, INFps like strrrng and my friend Katelyn are capable of rising above the circumstances of their own minds to see things from Te perspectives when the time calls for it. crazedrat seems incapable or unwilling to do so.

  39. #39
    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    EII land
    TIM
    EII INFj
    Posts
    22,740
    Mentioned
    531 Post(s)
    Tagged
    6 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    Perhaps, but to be fair to them, INFps like strrrng and my friend Katelyn are capable of rising above the circumstances of their own minds to see things from Te perspectives when the time calls for it. crazedrat seems incapable or unwilling to do so.
    only because you don't have the tools to make such an attempt come to fruition...it's emotional

    capability and willingness are there for everyone, language and conveying is different.

    Loosing your temper over it, or over trying it, is not going to help you..lol.

  40. #40
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2005
    TIM
    D-LSI-Ti 1w9 sp/sx
    Posts
    11,586
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    Loosing your temper over it, or over trying it, is not going to help you..lol.
    My biggest vice is that I lose my temper easily. I really wish I could debate crazedrat over stickam or in person; it's much easier for me to communicate verbally, and I tend to get pissed having to write out long responses.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •