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Thread: Thought About Ni

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    Default Thought About Ni

    Ni proper is primarily concerned with signifier-signified relationships, i.e., meaning. More specifically, it is about how signifier-signified relationships change--internal dynamics of fields. I think the linguistic metaphor sheds light on something important about Ni (and also about why the archetype for the IEI is a lyric poet). So when we talk about Ni being about predicting the future, what will happen, etc., we're really talking about reading signs, figuring out what the meaning is going to be. Notice that it's what the meaning is going to be--Ni doesn't read signs in a 1 to 1 relationship--that's more like Ti and Fi (statics of fields). Ni reads signs in a dynamic way--how the meaning will change over time. As such, "high-level" Ni (that is, one of the most impressive or difficult skills that an Ni outlook on life helps you to master) can learn to manipulate the relationships between signifiers and what they signify, changing what the sign means. This can take the form of political rhetoric (i.e., Barack Obama), or, of course, it can take the form of poetry.

    So, yeah, I think Ni is concerned with evaluating signs. And because Ni egos are constantly focused on such evalutions, they are prone to see them when others don't. We see this in the Ni tendency to believe in "destiny" or in how things are "omens". Weak Ni (or, as Jung said, "the shadow of the opposite"--Se without Ni) will often over-rely on such beliefs, either drawing more meaning than is actually there, or believing in it too strongly (tends to be Ni-superid), or trying to ignore destiny or omens or anything like that at all (or anything where you evaluate a sign) as too mystical and "spooky" (tends to be Ni-superego).

    Also, this helps distinguish between Ni and Ne. On one of the wikisocion profiles, IEIs are noted for liking to take walks and just explore. I find myself doing this as well--frequently I start walking to one place, and just decide to keep walking for no apparent reason (that's actually one of my favorite ways to spend a day). This would seem at first to be an Ne thing--Ne is associated with experience for experience's sake, just for the sake of seeing something new, or, as India.Arie (an IEE singer) says, "how life will surprise me today". But Ni wandering can be distinguished from Ne wandering in this: Ni wants to experience new things not for their own sake, but for the sake of discerning their meaning. Ni seeks experience, new things, change, difference, for the purpose of finding new meaning, whereas it seems that Ne seeks new experiences for its own sake? (Ne egos, please correct me about this if I'm wrong). This also relates to Ni ennui. This frequently happens with IEIs (but can happen with ILIs as well, presumably), and can be seen when IEIs complain that nobody ever surprises them, that people are predictable and therefore boring, etc. + leads IEIs to be very good at interpreting people and finding what their actions signify about their motivations, and more importantly, how changing actions reflect changing motivations, especially in reactions to certain events. And IEIs often find that said actions often boil down to a few basic motivations (although this more reflects a mental rut, an IEI who doesn't recognize enough imaginative possibilities, than an inherent boredom in the world---the world, of course, is both incredibly dull and incredibly interesting). And as such, we judge that life is boring, or that people are boring, or something.

    So yeah, those are my thoughts about Ni for the day. Let me know what you think.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    More than "meaning" I would say "significance," in terms of something being either personally relevant to oneself or another, or seeing how some force will impact a course of action by way of conducive or subversive action.

    Seeking new experiences for their own sake sounds more like Se than Ne.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    More than "meaning" I would say "significance," in terms of something being either personally relevant to oneself or another, or seeing how some force will impact a course of action by way of conducive or subversive action.

    Seeking new experiences for their own sake sounds more like Se than Ne.
    yes, I agree. Se seeks new experiences and Ni gives them significance. Ne has a hard time choosing WHICH experience it wants. Si helps it choose something fun?
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Ni is concerned with the flow of time. NiFe is quite adept at using Ti; NiTe is quite adept at using Fi

    "So when we talk about Ni being about predicting the future, what will happen, etc., we're really talking about reading signs, figuring out what the meaning is going to be."

    I have a feeling this is not the case; they first seek to define a term, then they use Ti to understand how these terms fit into the scheme of things or the flow of things. Odd words that have no meaning strike a very odd reaction with IEI, for example the made up word like "bearspewingmagigi";

    I have observed the tendency to for them to tie words to actions (you say this, yet you do that; if you're going to say this then at least do that...this is where predictions come in.)
    looking for consistancies between actions and words.

    "He doesn't do this, so why should you do that?" They try to find universal laws that govern Ti? Detailed study of one of the parameters of the external world.
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 06-02-2010 at 10:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    Also, this helps distinguish between Ni and Ne. On one of the wikisocion profiles, IEIs are noted for liking to take walks and just explore. I find myself doing this as well--frequently I start walking to one place, and just decide to keep walking for no apparent reason (that's actually one of my favorite ways to spend a day). This would seem at first to be an Ne thing--Ne is associated with experience for experience's sake, just for the sake of seeing something new, or, as India.Arie (an IEE singer) says, "how life will surprise me today". But Ni wandering can be distinguished from Ne wandering in this: Ni wants to experience new things not for their own sake, but for the sake of discerning their meaning. Ni seeks experience, new things, change, difference, for the purpose of finding new meaning, whereas it seems that Ne seeks new experiences for its own sake? (Ne egos, please correct me about this if I'm wrong).
    Ne seeks out unassimilated information (i.e. what it doesn't understand), which often means anything mysterious and unknown. The harder and more conceptual something is, the more I want to learn it.

    Understanding a concept allows us to define its regularities and fit it within a logical (or ethical) framework. As soon as that happens, we lose interest and find something entirely new. This can seem overly capricious and irresponsible to Se quadras.

    Any inherent "meaning" should belong to the concept itself and not to us, since our view of meaning is more objective. An Ni dominant's personal meaning and significance permanently redefines the universe in his own image; it's too subjective, and loses him the opportunity to understand spontaneous possibilities and the true workings of the universe around him. (That's why I get along with ILIs so much. Their plodding and meticulous thinking allows them to cast a net over many possibilities).

    The fact that two Ni dominants can arrive at completely different answers, and that ideological wars can break out within Ni quadras (usually prompted by adherence to a Ti or Fi system), is enough proof that Ni is too relativistic.

    I suppose that Ni quadras say the same about Ne. That Ne is too relativistic because it's willing to work with too many possibilities and doesn't adhere to anything of personal significance.
    Last edited by xerx; 06-02-2010 at 10:18 PM.
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    That said, my Ni is strong enough that I enjoy doses of Ni in moderation.
    You can do anything with a bayonet except sit on it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    That said, my Ni is strong enough that I enjoy doses of Ni in moderation.
    So you study people's actions?

    Fi studies people's feelings.

    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    Ne seeks out unassimilated information (i.e. what it doesn't understand), which often means anything mysterious and unknown. The harder and more conceptual something is, the more I want to learn it.
    yes it does. Odd ball information that others find out of the blue and just weird sometimes. And, we strive at nausium to talk about it with as many people as we can, until we have a sense of what the hell it is..then, once we have understood it, we get bored of it.

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    Well, Fi is more giving than Fe is. Fe is more selfish, emotional connections based more on what others are doing for you, then what you are doing together. You can tell this easily with Fi music, how it's much more sharing and gliding over more raw, personal feelings.

    I would consider Ni simply as the most clearest, translucent idealistic function, and the function that is able to connect and synthesis multiple ideas and wishful scenarios together.

    Ne seeks out unassimilated information (i.e. what it doesn't understand), which often means anything mysterious and unknown. The harder and more conceptual something is, the more I want to learn it.
    I'm the opposite. I simply want to know what I do know even better. Ni is just...like a direct beam of sunlight like that. INFps get even more romantic because we refuse to focus on information and situations that subjectively feel useless to us.

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    Also, this helps distinguish between Ni and Ne. On one of the wikisocion profiles, IEIs are noted for liking to take walks and just explore. I find myself doing this as well--frequently
    I LOVE to do this. However, I live in a sort of closed off and ghetto area, and sometimes people look at me weird when I do that. Like 'god why isn't this nut out there working like us...' But I love to just sort of, travel through the world at a safe distance and suck up the sights and sounds all that, and safely explore without getting lodged up in a system or institution that in the long-run is a useless veil, that I sense so easily with my Ni. In fact, I often critically judge people as using their time uselessly. I know they do it to me too though so I don't really have much pity on them for that.

    I often want things to be messier in an artistic way. You know that boxed in ennegram 3, Te-valuing way that American society is constructed? Oooh nothing pisses me off more then that. And then I actually like when an accident or 'something wrong' happens because it challenges people not to be controlled so much. And it sort of riles them up and stirs them up inside and forces them to be a bit more social and a little less 'economical' and I just like that.

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    Existentialism always struck me as the epitome of an -based philosophy.

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    Existentialism seems too obvious for me. Of course the individual is responsible for what is meaningful to us. When an institution or a group or even one other person tries to tell us what we should find meaningful, we all instinctively rebel.

    If I met a philosopher in real life, I'd tell him to go lighten up and suck a cock. At least, I'd be thinking that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    Existentialism seems too obvious for me. Of course the individual is responsible for what is meaningful to us. When an institution or a group or even one other person tries to tell us what we should find meaningful, we all instinctively rebel.

    If I met a philosopher in real life, I'd tell him to go lighten up and suck a cock. At least, I'd be thinking that.
    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    So yeah, those are my thoughts about Ni for the day. Let me know what you think.
    ^ how do you two feel about passing your moods onto others?

    If someone is upset, does it cause you to be upset?

    Would a depressive atmosphere make you feel depressed just for being in it?

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    Everybody passes their moods onto others...so I don't feel anyway about it either way. Just a natural thing to me. Are you bothered about something Maritsa?

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    ^ how do you two feel about passing your moods onto others?

    If someone is upset, does it cause you to be upset?

    Would a depressive atmosphere make you feel depressed just for being in it?
    I don't necessarily take on the emotions that other people feel, as in getting sad when others are sad, but I do always have some kind of emotional reaction towards observing the experience of emotion in another; for example I am often pissed off by another's seeming indifference or undeserved happiness, or excited by their fear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    Any inherent "meaning" should belong to the concept itself and not to us, since our view of meaning is more objective. An Ni dominant's personal meaning and significance permanently redefines the universe in his own image; it's too subjective, and loses him the opportunity to understand spontaneous possibilities and the true workings of the universe around him. (That's why I get along with ILIs so much. Their plodding and meticulous thinking allows them to cast a net over many possibilities).
    er... Ni-egos have strong, unconscious Ne for a reason. these possibilities which may seem overlooked to you, are viewed from the Ni pov as abstract fragments that either possess larger, contextual relevancy, or not. they lose individual meaning in this context -- one that is defined not by recursive processes perceived via the environment, but by conceptual processes that underlie concrete forms. 'meaning', in this sense, isn't simply to be found in some subjective well of fatalism, but in the conviction that the images, etc. that function in continuity, bear a meaning unto external reality.

    The fact that two Ni dominants can arrive at completely different answers, and that ideological wars can break out within Ni quadras (usually prompted by adherence to a Ti or Fi system), is enough proof that Ni is too relativistic.
    so relativistic that neither side will budge in a clear disagreement? its relativism belies a stronger need to actualize things in tangible form; without this assumption, the process would be completely pointless.

    contrast it to... Ne. what is relative here, is the environment, basically; as it is seen through a subjective lens. abstractions spawn as context shifts. the process is more about expanding and dividing, rather than refining and condensing, context, with an endless conceptual assimilation. this pattern is accounted for in Ne/Si'ers ability to better let differences in ideas exist respectively, rather than write them off because they don't fit within an established boundary.
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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    er... Ni-egos have strong, unconscious Ne for a reason. these possibilities which may seem overlooked to you, are viewed from the Ni pov as abstract fragments that either possess larger, contextual relevancy, or not. they lose individual meaning in this context -- one that is defined not by recursive processes perceived via the environment, but by conceptual processes that underlie concrete forms. 'meaning', in this sense, isn't simply to be found in some subjective well of fatalism, but in the conviction that the images, etc. that function in continuity, bear a meaning unto external reality.
    Nevertheless, when the dye is cast and those possibilities are merged into a hierarchy of tight concision, most other "lesser" permutations become overlooked.

    I'm describing it from an Ne POV though, so don't feel offended. I'm sure to Ni egos it's a superior method to arrive at the truth.

    so relativistic that neither side will budge in a clear disagreement? its relativism belies a stronger need to actualize things in tangible form; without this assumption, the process would be completely pointless.
    No, probably not. I'm describing the worst case scenario of complete dissonance. My experience is that in any quadra, tangible proof will outweigh metaphysical speculation.

    contrast it to... Ne. what is relative here, is the environment, basically; as it is seen through a subjective lens. abstractions spawn as context shifts. the process is more about dividing, rather than distilling, context, and an endless kind of conceptual assimilation. this pattern is accounted for in Ne/Si'ers ability to better let differences in ideas exist respectively, rather than write them off because they don't fit within an established boundary.
    I don't quite understand what you're saying. I'm fairly sure Gammas allow many differences in ideas to exist in their environment, even if they don't agree with them.

    Unless you mean as part of one's own thought process, in which case no one allows differences in ideas to exist because of cognitive dissonance. The closest would be someone who says there are "unaccounted for" possibilities and doesn't take a certain stand on an issue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    Nevertheless, when the dye is cast and those possibilities are merged into a hierarchy of tight concision, most other "lesser" permutations become overlooked.
    fair enough. there will always be cases where alternatives are sacrificed by 'necessity' for an idea's condensation. I guess it's a continual error that both sides see: lack of relevancy, and lack of conceptual expansion.

    I'm describing it from an Ne POV though, so don't feel offended. I'm sure to Ni egos it's a superior method to arrive at the truth.
    I don't really consider it a matter of truth, per say; it's easy to chalk it up to that, but ultimately, doing so just falls back into the trap that socionics accounts for.

    No, probably not. I'm describing the worst case scenario of complete dissonance. My experience is that in any quadra, tangible proof will outweigh metaphysical speculation.

    I don't quite understand what you're saying. I'm fairly sure Gammas allow many differences in ideas to exist in their environment, even if they don't agree with them.
    yes, this is correct. I think these tendencies are the most pronounced in betas and deltas, respectively. with gammas, the attitude has an unassuming self-containment. where betas' objective boundaries become rigidly structured, gammas are more personally connected, and so, the approach is more: you either agree or not -- without any broader implications about 'who you are.' alphas being the other side, where disagreements in ideas can exist, but will always be contextualized in some form, so that the 'truth' can be weighed in some manner, if not concretely defined, as in beta (deltas basically take the stance of pure individual freedom, more or less).

    but basically what I was saying about Ni/Se, is that the reason why the context can seem more limited to Ne/Si'ers, and less mutable overall, is because of the 'need for Se' -- namely, the existence of basic and essential variables whose existence is concrete and unchanging.

    the idea is, refining contours until they surround the form that initially spawned them.

    Ne/Si is more about expanding boundaries of the environment to filter localized abstractions that arise; so that, in the end, all works in one, broader cycle, without limitations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    er... Ni-egos have strong, unconscious Ne for a reason. these possibilities which may seem overlooked to you, are viewed from the Ni pov as abstract fragments that either possess larger, contextual relevancy, or not. they lose individual meaning in this context -- one that is defined not by recursive processes perceived via the environment, but by conceptual processes that underlie concrete forms. 'meaning', in this sense, isn't simply to be found in some subjective well of fatalism, but in the conviction that the images, etc. that function in continuity, bear a meaning unto external reality.



    so relativistic that neither side will budge in a clear disagreement? its relativism belies a stronger need to actualize things in tangible form; without this assumption, the process would be completely pointless.

    contrast it to... Ne. what is relative here, is the environment, basically; as it is seen through a subjective lens. abstractions spawn as context shifts. the process is more about expanding and dividing, rather than refining and condensing, context, with an endless conceptual assimilation. this pattern is accounted for in Ne/Si'ers ability to better let differences in ideas exist respectively, rather than write them off because they don't fit within an established boundary.

    IN ENGLISH?

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    ^ lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by mercutio View Post
    IN ENGLISH?
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    You guys are retarded. You need to learn to use language, not just speak it.

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    scream of death
    INTp

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    Ni = intuition = future

    Ni = manipulation of objects in the future

    I don't really know why Ni is concerned with finding meanings and symbolism... but I'm sure someone else can answer that.

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    Well, Fi is more giving than Fe is. Fe is more selfish, emotional connections based more on what others are doing for you, then what you are doing together. You can tell this easily with Fi music, how it's much more sharing and gliding over more raw, personal feelings.
    No... that's bullshit. Pretty much anyone can be selfish or giving. And technically, Statics are more "selfish" than the Dynamics since they are more concerned with their own convictions and feelings. Why are they called Infantiles - because they are like spoiled brats at heart. Why are they called Aggressors - because they go after what they want. Why are they called Caretakers - because they have no choice but to take care of those around them. Why are they called Victims - because they are the victims of their environment.

    Well actually, Fe IS about giving people what they want, that's what it does. Fe is about boosting people's emotions, making people happy... it's not like all Fe types always do that, but that's part of what Fe is...

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedratXII View Post
    scream of death
    No shit.

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    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    More than "meaning" I would say "significance," in terms of something being either personally relevant to oneself or another, or seeing how some force will impact a course of action by way of conducive or subversive action.
    The first thing, about "personally relevant" would make it more specific to NiFe, I think, but yeah, that would be accurate for NiFe, I suppose, since meaning is sort of floating out there and significance is more tied to an individual, a consciousness, etc. I like the word "meaning" though, because it goes along with my language metaphor better. .

    Seeking new experiences for their own sake sounds more like Se than Ne.
    Yes, apparently it is.


    I have a feeling this is not the case; they first seek to define a term, then they use Ti to understand how these terms fit into the scheme of things or the flow of things. Odd words that have no meaning strike a very odd reaction with IEI, for example the made up word like "bearspewingmagigi";
    Oh, see, I think the process, as it unfolds in Ni egos, is much more intuitive and instantaneous than that. For instance, on the TV show Bones, even though Bones herself is a generic NT type, in several episodes, there's a part where she looks at all the evidence, considers all the facts (Te), and then suddenly puts together a narrative of what happened in her mind (Ni). It's not like a gradual process of defining this and then fitting it into a schematic. It's a sudden "moment" of putting the pieces together into a whole, or, to use Gilly's term, identifying the significance of each individual bit of information to the as of yet undefined whole.

    I have observed the tendency to for them to tie words to actions (you say this, yet you do that; if you're going to say this then at least do that...this is where predictions come in.)
    looking for consistancies between actions and words.

    "He doesn't do this, so why should you do that?" They try to find universal laws that govern Ti? Detailed study of one of the parameters of the external world.
    This I do believe is a typical Beta NF trait, although it is a trait not many beta NFs possess. Beta NFs expect this kind of consistency, and that is more related to Ti: this assertion is statically tied to this action, and if you fail to enact that link, then there's something wrong with you, not with the static Ti "link" between the assertion and the action. But I think what I'm talking about is a bit different that what you're talking about. I would term what you're talking about more expectation than prediction, maybe an overly specific distinction, but I hope you get the idea?



    Ne seeks out unassimilated information (i.e. what it doesn't understand), which often means anything mysterious and unknown. The harder and more conceptual something is, the more I want to learn it.

    Understanding a concept allows us to define its regularities and fit it within a logical (or ethical) framework. As soon as that happens, we lose interest and find something entirely new. This can seem overly capricious and irresponsible to Se quadras.
    Ah! So here's the difference. Both Ne and Ni are seeking meaning. But Ne is seeking meaning in the outside world to be fit into a system (as you said, either logical or ethical, and points for noting that introverted judging elements are inherently systematic in nature--statics of fields, what is always true about relationships, but also attempting to pursue their unchangingness, as in Ti-egos trying to never deviate from what logic dictates, or Fi-egos trying to have a relationship that is solid and unshakeable.). Ni is seeking the outside world to inspire it to find meaning in an interior world (that is, in the "internal images", as Jung says), for the purposes of knowing what action to take (extroverted judging functions are about "how to do" something, generally). Or, to put it another way, NiXe says "I understand this concept when it allows me to make a better decision in the moment than I would otherwise have taken" On the other hand NeXi says, "I understand this concept when I have fit it into a cohesive and coherent system with other concepts." NiFe says that it understands a person when it can cause any change in their interior world (i.e., Fe, internal dynamics of objects) that it desires. NeFi says that it understands a person when it can explain any of their actions in terms of the unchanging laws about how relationships between human beings work (i.e., Fi, internal statics of fields). Of course, this is painting with broad strokes, but I think it is true generally or archetypally, although it does not consciously play out like this in real life.

    Any inherent "meaning" should belong to the concept itself and not to us, since our view of meaning is more objective. An Ni dominant's personal meaning and significance permanently redefines the universe in his own image; it's too subjective, and loses him the opportunity to understand spontaneous possibilities and the true workings of the universe around him. (That's why I get along with ILIs so much. Their plodding and meticulous thinking allows them to cast a net over many possibilities).
    Yes, that is the difference between Ni and Ne: Ne wants the mystery and the meaning "on the outside" so to speak; Ni wants it "on the inside". More accurately, Ne routes the mystery and meaning through the outside. When exploring mystery, they are exploring something outside themselves. Ni routes the mystery and meaning through the inside. When exploring mystery, we are exploring something inside ourselves, insofar as we emphasize the mental image, or idea, of the thing, more than the thing itself. That mental image, obviously, is inside our minds. Of course, when you are exploring an object, you are exploring both the object external to the self and the mental image internal to the self. The difference is all in emphasis, and quadra differences on this score essentially amount to both sides shouting, "You put the emPHAsis on the wrong syLLAble!"

    The fact that two Ni dominants can arrive at completely different answers, and that ideological wars can break out within Ni quadras (usually prompted by adherence to a Ti or Fi system), is enough proof that Ni is too relativistic.
    Oh, silly! That happens because there are multiple things that are true about any given object, and Ni-egos (and people in general) tend to arrive at partial object knowledge, paradoxically enough. Even though for Plato there was no difference between saber and conocer, I find that in real life (as opposed to in Plato's dialogues/system), people studying, say, human nature, can obsessively see the glory of human nature--we find this in, say, Whitman, who is constantly celebrating how wonderful people are--or they can obsessively see the horror of human nature--we find this in, say, Samuel Beckett. The superior perspective (and the perspective we see advanced frequently by Shakespeare in hero-villains like Iago, Edmund, Hamlet) is to understand the wedded whole from which the two partial knowledges are split off (because we could not understand the whole without first breaking it into parts; yet to understand the parts separately is not to understand the wedded whole, to know parts =/= to know whole). But the point is that Ni disagreements arise from the essential subjectivity of the universe, which is that contradictory propositions are both true, man is both good and evil, and to such a degree that you would assume that the good would banish the evil or that the evil would banish the good. But the opposites are forcefully wedded, and that is the universe's violent concision, or at least the universe as we know it now. Man enacts that subjectivity by emphasizing one side or the other of the dichotomy--this is where Ni disagreements arise from. But one can achieve what I like to call Shakespeare objectivity (which has some relation to Harold Bloom's "detachment") wherein one resolves the dichotomy into its original unity, and thereby achieves a larger measure of knowledge.

    I suppose that Ni quadras say the same about Ne. That Ne is too relativistic because it's willing to work with too many possibilities and doesn't adhere to anything of personal significance.
    Eh. I guess. But I'm fine with other ways of doing things, really. I just don't choose to do them that way. If I have my way, I'll be like shakespeare and transcend type through type.

    Well, Fi is more giving than Fe is. Fe is more selfish, emotional connections based more on what others are doing for you, then what you are doing together. You can tell this easily with Fi music, how it's much more sharing and gliding over more raw, personal feelings.
    Yeah, it is. While certainly a given person can be either selfish or selfless depending on their ideals, there is a fundamental selfishness to Fe, because Fe is about the emotion, the change for its own sake, and thinks that the internal change is more important than keeping the relationship solid, keeping people comfortable. I see this all the time with my SEE brother (semi-duality is really a bitch, because each one expects the other to be their dual because it just seems so much like it). He wants to avoid the raw feelings for the sake of keeping people from being upset, for the sake of maintaining the quality of the relationship, whereas I would rather upset the relationship for a while for the sake of expressing myself, and yes, there is something truly selfish about wanting to express one's self (feel the extremes of internal change) rather than focusing on how that self-expression is going to impact your relationship to another human being, and so I can't argue when he says I'm selfish in that way, 'cause it's true. But I kind of have to assume that it's valid in its own way, even if sometimes it is excessive (tcaud-I-think has this idea of transcendent and immanent, and I feel like the idea of transcendence is like settling, moderating your behavior, letting things be; I want to go past all limits and all time, I don't want to moderate myself, I want to pursue my way so far that it becomes okay, I don't know).
    I would consider Ni simply as the most clearest, translucent idealistic function, and the function that is able to connect and synthesis multiple ideas and wishful scenarios together.
    . Only IEIs would find that the most simple explanation. And yet I agree with you, it is a lot simpler to just understand what it is that way than to do it in this long explanatory way. But I dunno, I think it's worthwhile to elaborate on what you mean, even if it is all just elaboration on a simple statement like that.


    I LOVE to do this. However, I live in a sort of closed off and ghetto area, and sometimes people look at me weird when I do that. Like 'god why isn't this nut out there working like us...' But I love to just sort of, travel through the world at a safe distance and suck up the sights and sounds all that, and safely explore without getting lodged up in a system or institution that in the long-run is a useless veil, that I sense so easily with my Ni. In fact, I often critically judge people as using their time uselessly. I know they do it to me too though so I don't really have much pity on them for that.
    Oh, see, that's why I like living in NYC, because there's always somewhere that's safe to walk 'cause there are people out, but I'm scared to walk at home (Texas), b/c a) the streets aren't built for pedestrians and b) I just can't walk very far before I'm afraid I'll be walking in the hood and it won't be safe. I know, I'm being pussyish, but hey. That's how life should be, I think. You should get to explore the world without being tied down. It's so funny how all the ideas that I try to be so logical and poetry with are also so obvious. Like it took me a long and tortured time to work out my doctrine about not getting tied down to systems or institutions, and they are all a veil, and it's better to not get tied down in them, even if you can't see past the veil, don't pretend that the veil is better than what's behind it, because that's just silly.
    I often want things to be messier in an artistic way. You know that boxed in ennegram 3, Te-valuing way that American society is constructed? Oooh nothing pisses me off more then that. And then I actually like when an accident or 'something wrong' happens because it challenges people not to be controlled so much. And it sort of riles them up and stirs them up inside and forces them to be a bit more social and a little less 'economical' and I just like that.
    lol. I have a big dramatic theory about this too, about how Iago had his idea of the Good destroyed or whatever, but it just seems silly to have big dramatic ideas when things are so obvious. But it's important to be able to express yourself well. But it's more important to know than to say, ultimately. That's what I think anyway.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

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    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
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    ^ how do you two feel about passing your moods onto others?

    If someone is upset, does it cause you to be upset?

    Would a depressive atmosphere make you feel depressed just for being in it?
    Hell no. I choose how I feel. Or at least, other people don't get to choose how I feel. I do freely pass my moods on to others. Other people should be like me; they should be able to submit to or resist others' emotional pressure at will. But I understand that Fi people are wired the exact opposite way, to see empathizing as an inherent good and therefore, since we're going to empathize with whatever you put out there, you should control what you put out there. I have some really close friends who are Fi egos and I really feel for them, because I know just like my way of life, my preferred way of going about things, has its challenges, their way of doing things brings its challenges too. I would really like to write a play about an Fi ego. I think she'll be a girl. I'm also going to write a play about a female SLE, like every other male IEI poet/dramatist. She's going to be a wife rather than a mother, though. Maybe I'll be like Charles Dickens and put them in the same play. But I won't be so simplistic as to make one good and one evil. Maybe it'll even be like King Lear and they'll never speak directly to one another, just like Edmund and Lear never speak directly to one another.

    Sometimes I intentionally act happy around people who are in a bad mood not to make them feel better, but to make them feel worse, like I'm flaunting how just because they're in a bad mood, doesn't mean I have to be. I know it's mean though, so I should probably stop doing it. I don't do that often.
    in this sense, isn't simply to be found in some subjective well of fatalism, but in the conviction that the images, etc. that function in continuity, bear a meaning unto external reality.
    so relativistic that neither side will budge in a clear disagreement? its relativism belies a stronger need to actualize things in tangible form; without this assumption, the process would be completely pointless.
    I don't really consider it a matter of truth, per say; it's easy to chalk it up to that, but ultimately, doing so just falls back into the trap that socionics accounts for.
    Preach!

    (If I had an organ, I would be playing church music right now. And if I had a fat black lady, I would tell her to run around the sanctuary.)

    Seriously, just +4000 for both of your two posts.

    My experience is that in any quadra, tangible proof will outweigh metaphysical speculation.
    You make me want to cry. Go read Don Quixote. Truth always triumphs over facts.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    Sometimes I intentionally act happy around people who are in a bad mood not to make them feel better, but to make them feel worse, like I'm flaunting how just because they're in a bad mood, doesn't mean I have to be. I know it's mean though, so I should probably stop doing it. I don't do that often.
    I have caught myself doing this also. With an IEE friend/acquaintance (or she might be EII). Like she'll be standing there all mopey and there will be someone else there too and I'll intentionally start throwing around the positive Fe with the other person, right in front of delta NF. She's free to join in of course but since she's mopey, she doesn't. Which is fine by me--I don't feel bad about it but I'm sure as heck not gonna be brought down to her miserable mood.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    I don't like the idea of "meaning" because the word is too specific. Sure, Ni can encompass personal meaning, but really Ni is about subjective significance within the context of a personal timeline or events that are relevant to a specific course of development. I think "meaning," indicating a sense of personal purpose, is one thing that at least partially falls under this category (although I think it could be equated to the other internal fields function, Fi, as well), but it's far too limited a term.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9
    That's how life should be, I think. You should get to explore the world without being tied down.
    especially by yourself! you could easily walk through a hood; you're black. also, it's weird, but I believe that if you are certain of your own movement (in general), the potential consequences of specific directions of action more or less vanish, leaving whatever does happen, a matter of... destiny. this is why the crack addict I met didn't kill me. seriously though, as long as you're within yourself, it won't matter if you're on the block with dboys or in some bourgeois haven, because the effects of your trek will always tie back to that guiding force.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    Well actually, Fe IS about giving people what they want, that's what it does. Fe is about boosting people's emotions, making people happy... it's not like all Fe types always do that, but that's part of what Fe is...
    You're not being raw or pure enough. Yes, when Fe is somebody's primary or leading function it's like that. But even if it's their creative function, Fe really isn't like that.

    In my opinion it's important to understand what the functions mean before you structure them. I was talking more of 'Pure Fe' or 'Pure Fi', without them existing in a person yet.

    I just notice a lot of people getting all complex while they are incorrect about the foundation. So they just neurotically confuse themselves a great deal. I think the issue is, everybody is still confused about what the functions mean objectively. I'll try to write an article about what 'External Dynamics of Objects' really means, and things like that.

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    lol raw and pure
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    Well actually, Fe IS about giving people what they want, that's what it does. Fe is about boosting people's emotions, making people happy... it's not like all Fe types always do that, but that's part of what Fe is...
    Fe is not just about making people happy; it's about inspiring whatever emotion is seen as necessary or beneficial, given a specific goal. Rational functions do things for a reason, to accomplish a specific purpose.

    It's interesting, though, what you say about Ni types being victims of their environment, not in the sense that they are all "woe is me" and shit, but more that they embody a reaction to their environment in some form.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    No... that's bullshit. Pretty much anyone can be selfish or giving. And technically, Statics are more "selfish" than the Dynamics since they are more concerned with their own convictions and feelings. Why are they called Infantiles - because they are like spoiled brats at heart. Why are they called Aggressors - because they go after what they want. Why are they called Caretakers - because they have no choice but to take care of those around them. Why are they called Victims - because they are the victims of their environment.
    you're starting to sound like Maritsa here

    Well actually, Fe IS about giving people what they want, that's what it does. Fe is about boosting people's emotions, making people happy... it's not like all Fe types always do that, but that's part of what Fe is...
    Fe is like any IE, it gives what it gives and not everyone will be receptive to it. But you're right that Fe's are talented at conveying positive emotions and influencing them in others (who are receptive to it), but Gilly is also right in stating that Fe can be utilized outside of creating positive emotions too
    EII INFj
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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    I have caught myself doing this also. With an IEE friend/acquaintance (or she might be EII). Like she'll be standing there all mopey and there will be someone else there too and I'll intentionally start throwing around the positive Fe with the other person, right in front of delta NF. She's free to join in of course but since she's mopey, she doesn't. Which is fine by me--I don't feel bad about it but I'm sure as heck not gonna be brought down to her miserable mood.
    you're friend is likely more Fi dominant > creative. IEE's tend to contribute more with their Fe demonstrative, unless they're in a bad mood of course
    But she probably doesn't care one way or another when you're bring "Fe happy" unless you're using it evily like silverchris dose on upset people just to annoy them
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marie84 View Post
    Fe is like any IE, it gives what it gives and not everyone will be receptive to it. But you're right that Fe's are talented at conveying positive emotions and influencing them in others (who are receptive to it), but Gilly is also right in stating that Fe can be utilized outside of creating positive emotions too
    I think a generalized aspect of Fe is the creation, emulation and maintenance of any emotion, ranging from negative to positive and anything in between or not even belonging in the aforementioned spectrum. It's a powerful function (especially combined with Ni).
    Ceci n'est pas une eii.




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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    I have caught myself doing this also. With an IEE friend/acquaintance (or she might be EII). Like she'll be standing there all mopey and there will be someone else there too and I'll intentionally start throwing around the positive Fe with the other person, right in front of delta NF. She's free to join in of course but since she's mopey, she doesn't. Which is fine by me--I don't feel bad about it but I'm sure as heck not gonna be brought down to her miserable mood.
    Sounds like how I react to FeSi when I'm pissed: if someone tries to comfort or console me, I just turn them aside and remain contained. Not to bust your balls on the whole Alpha SF thing, but your reaction reminds me of exactly what happens when I'm around an SEI and am pissed off/in a bad mood: they will maybe try to include me or cheer me up, and I will rebuff them, wanting to be in my own space, so they go and start chatting up the next closest person like nothing is wrong. I don't expect them to want to take on my burdens, but I appreciate a bit of respect, and the obvious passive-aggressive note of taking out their feelings of not being appreciated for their efforts just makes me angrier.

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    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Sounds like how I react to FeSi when I'm pissed: if someone tries to comfort or console me, I just turn them aside and remain contained. Not to bust your balls on the whole Alpha SF thing, but your reaction reminds me of exactly what happens when I'm around an SEI and am pissed off/in a bad mood: they will maybe try to include me or cheer me up, and I will rebuff them, wanting to be in my own space, so they go and start chatting up the next closest person like nothing is wrong. I don't expect them to want to take on my burdens, but I appreciate a bit of respect, and the obvious passive-aggressive note of taking out their feelings of not being appreciated for their efforts just makes me angrier.
    Oh, but it's not taking out the feelings of not being appreciated. That's completely different. FeSi is like "are you okay? Is something wrong?" and then you have to smile at them for them to go away and cluck over how you're not actually okay in the corner with their girlfriends. Or I guess they do that really obvious, "oh, you're alright, okay" fake thing if you refuse to give them an emotional reaction, and then they very obviously "go about their business" while waiting for you to "open up." This, or at least if it's the same thing I'm describing, is more like, kick-you-while-you're-down emotionally (I don't know how it works, I just know that if you act a certain kind of happy around someone who is miserable, it just sort of grinds on them), and is kind of vindictive.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Sounds like how I react to FeSi when I'm pissed: if someone tries to comfort or console me, I just turn them aside and remain contained. Not to bust your balls on the whole Alpha SF thing, but your reaction reminds me of exactly what happens when I'm around an SEI and am pissed off/in a bad mood: they will maybe try to include me or cheer me up, and I will rebuff them, wanting to be in my own space, so they go and start chatting up the next closest person like nothing is wrong. I don't expect them to want to take on my burdens, but I appreciate a bit of respect, and the obvious passive-aggressive note of taking out their feelings of not being appreciated for their efforts just makes me angrier.
    But I never try to comfort or console. I'm just saying that instead of turning to her and asking if she's okay and thus either allowing her bad mood to bring me down or trying actively to turn her mood around, I would more likely ignore her and chat up the next person. There is no passive aggressiveness involved whatsoever. And I haven't the slightest need to be appreciated in that regard.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Ok. Well it reminded me of that phenomenon anyways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Ok. Well it reminded me of that phenomenon anyways.
    you're right that that's exactly what a FeSi would do.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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