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    Default Real life observations of ESTjs

    Did you find them to be interesting or boring people overall? Do we appear too blunt and commanding? How do you perceive us to be?
    ESTJ


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    I know a few. Actually, all of them are females.

    The first one, I hate. She's a stupid bitch.
    The second one's alright. She wears her pants all too high, though.
    The third one is one of my good friends. We compete a lot in gym class. Apparently, she has a 4km long penis.

    I definately know some male ESTjs too, but I just can't think of any off the top of my head.
    , Se-sub
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    Hey! What does your name mean? I find estjs to be a lot more fun with enfps around but they can be quite entertaining on their own. However, our one-on-one interaction can be boring as we both tend to get caught in repetitive cycles.

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    I know two. One is more commanding (Te subtype maybe) other is "softer" and more into aesthetics and stuff but still ESTj (Si subtype maybe). I have worked with one and spent leisure time with the other.

    I respect them. I can spend time with them. I can work with them. I can have good discussions with them. I think ESTjs could use more humor though and some ability to be "goofy" when there is no need to be serious and commanding (leisure time). I guess this varies from ESTj to ESTj. More imagination needed too!

    Then I hate it when they have "closed" their mind i.e. have come to conclusion and bluntly dismiss every opinion which contradicts theirs. ENTjs do this too. Actually other types with Te can go into this mode (INTp, ISTp). Usually even discussing about subjects at this point is annoying. There is always another way to look at the subject so "locking" into one view and refusing to consider others gets on my nerves

    I can have pretty heated arguments/fights with ESTjs in these situations but they are often short-lived and so far I haven't been able to have an argument that would spoil the relations for more than a day

    At workplace one thing I like is the ability to make decisions and stick to them. I have a tendency of wanting to change a decision a bit each day and my ESTj workmate was good help at keeping us "grounded" and made sure we kept the decisions and steadily worked towards the selected goal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    Hey! What does your name mean? I find estjs to be a lot more fun with enfps around but they can be quite entertaining on their own. However, our one-on-one interaction can be boring as we both tend to get caught in repetitive cycles.
    My name can mean a number of things such as keeping things where they belong or justifying the past. I do like to use profane jokes even if it may startle the person. I do tend to get more laid back if the right moment arises depending on the person I'm with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Transigent
    One thing I find annoying about Delta ST's is that they seem to have a "psychoanalysis" bent that they use personally to guide themselves in personal interaction that is just about ALWAYS incorrect.
    Yeah that is basically why I am trying to avoid analyzing people period. It doesn't really interest me, however if the need arises I may go into this mode. Though, this is when I feel the most vulnerable and it results in me being skeptical of most people and basically ignoring them.
    ESTJ


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    I was married to an ESTj. He is great overall in a lot of ways, but rather small minded (and I'm not saying that's related to type) and controlling. We get along now that I don't have to live with him. He has a lot to learn, but he's a VERY devoted father. He really does do his best.
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    I had a boss who was an ESTj - I was the secretary for two managers at work and he was one of them. I'm not sure what type the other one was.

    He was a great boss. A lot of people at work didn't get along with him but I did. He was very professional and well organized. The problem he had with other people is that they would make mistakes on his projects and try to cover the mistakes up rather than coming clean. Then he would lose his temper. I found that so long as you were really upfront with him and didn't try to hide anything he was great to work for.
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    i like estj's. my favorite was a female that was wound very tight. she was very charming. some people think i am very J, but she was super J. very catholic. she thought i was weird and tried to fix me. too bad i did better than her in all of our classes together.
    LII
    that is what i was getting at. if there is an inescapable appropriation that is required in the act of understanding, this brings into question the validity of socionics in describing what is real, and hence stubborn contradictions that continue to plague me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    "you seem to have an everpresent paranoia."
    "you just have low self-esteem."
    then
    "you probably don't care."
    "you don't want to talk to me."

    bla bla bla.
    this is how a lot of ENTjs appear to me. they seem to come up with these bullshit observations as such.
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    I briefly dated an ESTj. I remember how we met. At a dance club. He asked me to dance. Then from there he got...um...territorial. Making sure that noone got into my space, noone else could ask me to dance, sit next to me, etc. Not even my friends (who were male). On the one hand, it was attractive, cuz I tend to like guys who can take charge, on the other it was ammusing to watch, and yet on the other it was a bit annoying as it left me with none of my friends to talk to. (I was not very assertive at that time and didn't know what to say to him.)

    That night should have given me a clue, but when it comes to people, I tend to naively hope for the best. I mean, generally people do things with good intentions...despite the actual subsequent effects.

    He was in Alcoholics Anonymous. And very much into the "leave it to the higher power" thing. I have always personally had trouble with this thought. On the one hand, I understand how it can be helpful to the person using it, on the other hand, it removes any sense of obligation/responsibility for one's actions. He'd preach to me, and then turn around and contradict what he was preaching. It wouldn't have bothered me if his preaching was along the lines of he himself is trying to follow these things...but it came out more of a I should be the one following these things....but only when he wants me to.

    His first attempts at changing me involved my going out to dance clothes. We were going to go out dancing one night, and I wore a knee length black skirt (long slit, though) and a netted top with a very nice shirt type bra underneath. The netted holes were so small that really all one saw was an illusion of seeing through it. (I only like to show a certain amount..hehe) Anyhoot, he hated it, was embarrassed by it. Nevermind that it was less showing than when he met me. He took me to a movie instead. Midway I was so pissed about not going dancing that I demanded to be taken home.

    Sexually, I was never accepted for myself. He had been married for about 20-odd years and they still got together once in a while. He kept expecting and demanding that I respond to him the same way that his ex-wife did. I couldn't. The things he did didn't do anything for me. And he wouldn't accept any suggestions from me. He's the one that called me a Prude simple because I wouldn't watch porn movies with him.

    I could never stay at his house like he wanted because of the dense smoke smell and his cats. I was severely allergic to cats and..I'm sorry...smoking stinks! He'd tell me to get over it.

    I personally found him to be a bit too loud and overbearing. But then, I tend to prefer introverts, so any loudness or such would be perceptually magnified in my head.

    I did admire him when he worked on his hobbies. I've got a thing for builders and craftsman. And, well, I like automobile mechanics. He likes rebuilding cars and such. I enjoyed watching him when he did that.

    Unfortunately, I think we met up while he was going through some kind of crisis. He was finally realizing that him and his ex-wife were not going to be getting back together (after 5-7 years of divorce) and he had lost his job (because his attitude had become too loud and overbearing). So I think I had caught him at his worst instead of his normal.

    When he finally pulled himself together, he called me, asked me to give him another chance. I declined. I was fearful to make the attempt, and by then, I had realized that I really wanted an introvert instead of an extrovert. (Extroverts tend to overstimulate my brain, giving me a splitting headache. Introverts are quite a bit more soothing for me to be around.)

    All around, I think that if something has worked in the past for an ESTj, then they expect that it will work again, despite any situational differences/changes. I think that what they envision in their head, they expect to happen, and will make attempts to force it to conform to their guidelines. This can be a good thing....and a bad thing, depending on the circumstances.

    I wouldn't mind being friends with ESTj. Actually, I think it would be kind of fun. I still remember how broadly he smiled when he was happy, and how willing he was to care for someone. But I would never again be in a more intimate relationship with one.
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    Anndelise,

    What you described sounds more like an ESTp.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Anndelise,

    What you described sounds more like an ESTp.
    I have reread what I wrote trying to find out what about it makes you think ESTp. I can't find anything that says ESTp and NOT ESTj.

    I have dated and come close to dating ESTps. And it usually doesn't go anywhere because I don't fall for their salesmen tactics (and they are GOOD at those tactics).

    There is a big difference between feeling as if one is being manipulated towards something, and another to be pushed/forced into that direction. (ESTp doing the manipulating, ESTj doing the pushing.)
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    I got the impression of a rather self-centered and pushy guy, and a Gulenko Aggressor as well. That is not my interpretation of ESTjs especially as INFjs are their duals.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    I got the impression of a rather self-centered and pushy guy, and a Gulenko Aggressor as well. That is not my interpretation of ESTjs especially as INFjs are their duals.
    Yes, but as I mentioned, he was going through some kind of crisis. His changing behaviors at work causing him to lose his job. The overcoming alcoholism. The finally realizing him and the ex-wife were never going to get back together. etc.

    When viewing the behaviors I mentioned from this light, it smacks to me of someone who's world is crumbling and trying to hold it together, by whatever means necessary.

    As for the Gulenko Aggressor...he wasn't sexually aggressive really...just had developed a pattern of action/expected response that wasn't fitting with the current situation, and didn't yet know how to change. (Yet another area of his life falling apart?)
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    Default Butting In

    I would not rule out ESTJs though.
    He seems to have his share of personal problems.
    I am not sure about his type, but jerks come in all shapes, and types. :wink:
    I would also caution you not to take those Gulenko's erotic attitudes too literally. Sometimes INFJs can be somewhat kinky too. Those traditional (MBTI) ESTJ descriptions, much favored by Rocky, are not always wrong either.
    "Arnie is strong, rightfully angry and wants to kill somebody."
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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    As for the Gulenko Aggressor...he wasn't sexually aggressive really...just had developed a pattern of action/expected response that wasn't fitting with the current situation, and didn't yet know how to change. (Yet another area of his life falling apart?)
    Well, my interpretation is that to be an Aggressor doesn't necessarily mean he's going to be sexually aggressive in the common understanding of the term; I think that his expecting you to change according to his patterns, rather than trying to please you, is already an indication of that:

    He kept expecting and demanding that I respond to him the same way that his ex-wife did. I couldn't. The things he did didn't do anything for me. And he wouldn't accept any suggestions from me. He's the one that called me a Prude simple because I wouldn't watch porn movies with him
    .


    Some other things that you said:

    He'd preach to me, and then turn around and contradict what he was preaching.
    Socionics irrational.

    His first attempts at changing me involved my going out to dance clothes. We were going to go out dancing one night, and I wore a knee length black skirt (long slit, though) and a netted top with a very nice shirt type bra underneath. The netted holes were so small that really all one saw was an illusion of seeing through it. (I only like to show a certain amount..hehe) Anyhoot, he hated it, was embarrassed by it. Nevermind that it was less showing than when he met me. He took me to a movie instead. Midway I was so pissed about not going dancing that I demanded to be taken home.
    That also suggests irrationality to me. ESTjs care a lot about how they and their partners look and dress, but in my experience so far they are less aggressive and impulsive abou it. By contrast, the type so far most likely to open hit my PoLR in such things is the ESTp.

    There is a big difference between feeling as if one is being manipulated towards something, and another to be pushed/forced into that direction. (ESTp doing the manipulating, ESTj doing the pushing.)
    ESTps use whatever level of will make them achieve their goals. They are pushy with people they think they can/must push around, they are manipulative ie bullshitters with those they feel they must, and they kiss the ass of those with clear power over them and who won't listen to bullshit.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Default Re: Butting In

    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousSoul
    I would also caution you not to take those Gulenko's erotic attitudes too literally. Sometimes INFJs can be somewhat kinky too.
    Yes, kinky in an Infantile way I know what I'm talking about.

    Back to the main point of the thread - -

    I've met several ESTjs, I even dated one, on-off, ages ago. She was logical subtype and I considered ENTj for her, but she was too concerned about how things, people, and herself, looked. She even "made" me grow a beard (in a gentle way) and she cared a lot about how I dressed, but she was never aggressive or openly critical about it. Once I took her to the opera in a neo-classical opera house and she was far more interested in the building and decoration rather than in the opera itself. She was fond of looking at our image in the mirror and saying things like "we're such a good-looking couple". Her base function was , I'm pretty sure, but it was really the detail-oriented of ESTjs. For long-term plans, she needed orientation from others, but then she'd plunge into it with lots of energy.

    She was far more adventurous than the usual image of Sjs, which is why I considered ENTj for a while, but no way she had a PoLR and creative function, so ESTj logical subtype makes the most sense.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    I know two female ESTjs (one in her 30s with 2 small children, one in her late 60s with 3 grown sons). They both share the following qualities (which might or might not be typical for all ESTjs):

    Very energetic.

    Sensible and efficient. Do what needs to be done, no unnecessary fuss and botheration. Able to prioritize. No compulsive housewifery.

    The face they present to the world is serious and result-oriented. But both love being with people and are actually very kind (in a low-key, fair-minded sort of way). It seems they get along with almost everybody and find something to talk about with a great variety of people.

    I would call both of them tactful and considerate (which doesn't quite fit what people say about ESTjs in general). One of them (f.expl.) had to move from London to Yorkshire because of her husband's job, and at first she was very homesick and found her new home terribly bleak and depressing. So when the natives asked her how she liked their town, she'd say "oh, the fudge here is much better than ours down South."

    Very matter-of-fact. No sulks, no preening display of achievements, no bullying, no endless frettings meant to fish for sympathy, no "oh helpless little me" talk, no manipulation, no charm campaigns, no mental armwrestling, no using hammers to crack walnuts. Bliss. Very relaxing. What you see is what you get.

    Both are housewives, but very... what's the word? Urbane? I meet an ESTj once every week so our toddlers can play together, and with other Mums usually you can talk about nothing but diapers, baby shoes, toys (wood or plastic?), which playgrounds are the best... they're so absorbed in their own small world that they can't see anything else. With her it's different. Once we talked about LANs for an entire afternoon.

    Un-patronizing.

    I get along very well with both of them. They're refreshing, matter-of-fact, open-minded, sweet, kind, and cheerful. I find them fun to be with, but that may be because I'm an ENFp.

  19. #19
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    ESTjs are ok, though my relationships with them have more turmoil that I would like.

    My youngest brother is ESTj, and while I love him and everything - we have the most spectacular fights in the house (which is an achievement considering we all have tempers + ADHD ). I have had a few ESTj peers as well.

    They are generally nice guys, but I find they are overly uptight about trivial details like punctuality (however I might only find it trivial because of my own type). Also I get annoyed when they cheat (which happens often in trivial settings like board games, etc.) and then keep reminding everyone of their "moral superiority" and acting like it's the most evil thing when other people cheat. Also they're too impatient.

    Keep in mind they're my conflictor (or maybe supervisee lol), so my description is quite biased. Don't take it personally

    However, they seem very organised (which is envious). They seem pretty sincere, too.

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    Default Re: Butting In

    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousSoul
    I would not rule out ESTJs though.
    He seems to have his share of personal problems.
    Yes, he doesn't sound like the ESTjs I know. They care a lot about other ppl ("caring" attitude) the problem is that they have a very patronizing "I'm the father and you are my teenage kid" kind of attitude with most ppl.

    But the personal situation can hit ESTj hard which could make him very different. When stressed ESTjs lose their caring attitude and become more like aggressors. Maybe he was under constant stress and this made him behave in aggressor style.

    One thing that usually helps to differentiate ESTps and ESTjs is that ESTps pretty much always have an optimistic attitude towards future where ESTjs may be pessimistic and skeptical. As far as my friends and family is concerned...if ESTps lose their optimism and positive attitude (which rarely happens) they become total "vegetables" incapable of doing anything. They trust their ability to "survive" any situation so much that if they lose confidence in this ability their world comes down faaaast. ESTjs instead are always a bit pessimistic and skeptical (especially about other ppl) but can still work steadily towards their goals maybe cursing more and becoming more aggressive when the stress level goes up.

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