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Thread: Has Arizona gone completely nuts?

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    Default Has Arizona gone completely nuts?

    First they passed a law enabling cops to racially profile Hispanics and to arrest any immigrant, legal or not, who was not carrying around their papers with them. Now they've outlawed the teaching of ethnic history classes (goodbye Black History Month!), and moreover, accused teachers of these classes of fomenting rebellion. Are they going to declare the supremacy of the Aryan race next?

    No seriously, this is insane.

    Now are there anti-melting pot radical, crazy teachers in the world? Absolutely, I had one in college and hurriedly dropped the class when she started with her multiculturalism rhetoric. But the reaction by Arizona is at best an overreaction, and at worst completely wrongheaded and even illegal. The scary thing about it is, we've seen it before. In Kansas before the rational center finally rebelled and kicked out the crazy school board officials who were insisting that creationism be taught alongside evolution. It's a phenomenon that is becoming gradually worse: as liberals leave the small states for the cities, the small states are becoming increasingly red. For a while, this didn't mean anything. But now the right-wing fringe has realized that the out-flux is persistent, and that this enables them to seize absolute power in the small states. Arizona has an overwhelmingly Republican legislature. One wouldn't think this would be an issue but, the Rockefeller Republicans are an endangered species and today, most of the people running in red states today are outright loony if not plain stupid. As such, their thinking is getting increasingly erratic and even dictatorial.

    I'm concerned that if there is not a strong response by the federal government against Arizona and soon, other red states will follow suit in abandoning social responsibility and attacking the rights of their citizens. It's worth noting that the government can do something: the U.S. code specifically prohibits the denial of rights and enables the prosecution of those who conspire to enable the same.

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    El Presidente de Mi Cabeza GallopingQwerty's Avatar
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    I'm worried about it, too. This is similar to what happened around the time the Japanese internment camps started gaining favor during WWII, only we're targeting Mexican people instead of those of Middle Eastern descent (which would make more sense because we're actually fighting them, but I digress here since that whole war doesn't make any sense either).

    Here in California we often hear arguments for similar types of rules because we have tons of Mexicans here... there are even designated areas of the city for day laborers who wait around to get picked to climb into whatever pickup truck says they'll hire them for the day, no questions asked.

    That law will never get passed here, though, because honestly our state economy would never survive the sudden loss in labor.
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    -edit- nevermind. it isn't worth it to get into a discussion on this.
    Last edited by bg; 05-13-2010 at 10:26 AM.

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    It's McCarthy all over again. The government needs to recognize the threat and neutralize it.

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    Racial profiling is fine.

    Go away, tcaudilllg. No one likes you and you contribute nothing to society.
    Last edited by discojoe; 05-13-2010 at 03:30 PM.

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    My husband is an immigrant. If we go to Arizona and he isn't carrying his green card, can he be arrested? Or does him being white and English-speaking make it OK?

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    Another question. I have a neighbor who is an immigrant from Mexico. He's a cardiologist and is pretty wealthy. Would they likely get arrested if they weren't carrying documentation in Arizona? I'm thinking yes for them, but no for my husband for some reason. It's pretty scary, kind of Nazi-ish. (And I completely disagree with "Godwin's Law", I think people use that to try to excuse them when they know they're stepping into that kind of fascist territory.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mariella View Post
    My husband is an immigrant. If we go to Arizona and he isn't carrying his green card, can he be arrested? Or does him being white and English-speaking make it OK?
    According to the bill, yes. The officer can actually arrest anyone they suspect, by any criterion they conceive of, of being in the country illegally. That means they can use racial profiling or whatever. All the bill says is "if there is reason to suspect, then an arrest may be made".

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    According to the bill, yes. The officer can actually arrest anyone they suspect, by any criterion they conceive of, of being in the country illegally. That means they can use racial profiling or whatever. All the bill says is "if there is reason to suspect, then an arrest may be made".
    Technically they could, but it sounds like that law was made to target people of a specific ethic group that he isn't a part of. I doubt it would ever be used against him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    Racial profiling is fine.

    Go away, tcaudilllg. No one likes you and you contribute nothing to society.
    Care to take a vote on that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mariella View Post
    Technically they could, but it sounds like that law was made to target people of a specific ethic group that he isn't a part of. I doubt it would ever be used against him.
    Probably not. But if you're a Hispanic, this law basically says you are a second-class citizen.

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    I think some of these recent foolish acts have been committed because people are generally getting rather upset with the federal government and its recent policies, and are overcompensating thoughtlessly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    Racial profiling is fine.

    Go away, tcaudilllg. No one likes you and you contribute nothing to society.
    Would be easier if you could get them to wear yellow bands on their arms.
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    There is a lot more to this than you folks are probably aware of.

    And no... it is not racism.
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    Racial profiling is perfectly fine when you know that the people you're looking for are of a particular race. It would be stupid to mandate that police needed to meet a quota of white people just to make it "fair" for Mexicans who don't respect our laws.

    However, I think that the best solution for this problem is to simply impose monetary sanctions on those who employ illegal immigrants, as that would take away much of the incentive for these people to come here in the first place.

    To the question of banning ethnic "diversity" education in our schools, I am completely in favor of such legislation, since education of this kind is just watered-down bullshit to make minorities feel like their culture has contributed more to Western Civilization than it really has. Politics has no place in the school system, and mandatory politically motivated curriculum should absolutely be banned, though colleges should be free to offer whatever electives they wish to teach.

    Instead of "black history," students should learn history.

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    I'm at a friend's house on her computer so I can't respond fully at the moment, but quickly...

    Please keep in mind the current state of politics in the US and the impossibility of getting a non skewed interpretation from either side of any action that is taken. I'm fairly certain that Tcaud reads, trusts, and bases his views on information from the Left which is no more trustable in this climate as a 100% reliable source as is information coming from the Right.

    The citizens of Arizona are not nazis. We are aware of the problems and issues that come out of this law, and ARE working through addressing them as things progress. Arizona has a massive Hispanic population (legal citizens) and there is absolutely no way that every Hispanic seen on the street will be (or even can be) stopped and harrased for their "papers". It's just not going to happen, and it IS NOT in the slightest the intent of this law or how it will be practiced on the streets.

    @SlackerMom... in both cases, if not US citizens and not in possesion of proof of legal immigrant status both COULD be at least detained I think, but would be able to very easily fix the situation without penalties by providing that documentation to the courts at a later date (much like getting pulled over with proof of drivers insurance and getting the charge dropped by providing that proof later (which is standard procedure in Arizona courts)


    The reality of this situation is that the police and citizens are well aware of the slippery slope, the national media focus, and the concerns over this law. People are not going to be harrased for their documentation unless there is OBVIOUS reason to suspect them. If you are wearing grimy just walked 100 miles through the desert clothing and do not speak a word of English, you fall into that category. If not, there is a 99% chance that you are not even going to be looked at with a second glance.

    Yes, this sort of this is not pretty and there are dangers that need to be kept in mind and worked out as it is implimented in the real world. But action needs to be taken, the feds are not taking those actions in any way that is resolving this problem, so we as a state are being left with the ugly (but nessesary) task of doing it for ourselves or at least creating enough of a ruccus that the feds do their job and deal with it for us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldanen View Post
    White history month is every month, baby.
    First, please don't condescendingly refer to me as baby.

    Second, the purpose of history class is not to teach about "white" or "black" history; rather, it is to learn about the important events that have shaped society so that people will have a solid foundation of contextual knowledge with which to judge current events. Adding a particular race's history into the curriculum for the purpose of "fairness" is not conducive to actual learning, especially given how politically motivated the curriculum is. Why am I being forced to learn something just to make a group of people feel better?

    Third, there is not any equivalent, official or de facto, of "white history month." In my college history class, I learned about Western Civilization, and the curriculum, for blatantly politically correct purposes, constantly mentioned African Civilization and women. So it's not like our classes don't already inject black history into the curriculum.

    Fourth, you may wish to consider why a hypothetical history class would primarily talk about the history of Caucasian peoples. Might it have something to do with societal contribution?

    By the way, my role model is a black person, so I'd like to offer you a preemptive STFU in the event of any racism accusations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    However, I think that the best solution for this problem is to simply impose monetary sanctions on those who employ illegal immigrants, as that would take away much of the incentive for these people to come here in the first place.
    Holy crap, I actually agree with discojoe on something?? I had to double check that a few times

    But, yes. I think it is incredibly unfair to keep punishing the people who are coming here because they can make better lives for themselves and their families without punishing the people who go under the radar to offer them those opportunities without going through legal channels.

    For example, I used to work for a company in Oakland that employed 99% illegals from the day labor sections of town. He literally saved tens of thousands of dollars every 6 months because he didn't pay taxes on any of them, didn't pay for benefits, didn't pay overtime or holiday pay. This company is the reason I get pissed off when I see those email forwards ranting about how illegal immigrants are making tons of money because they don't pay any of that from their checks: they don't, but they also don't get even half of what they *should* be paid if they were citizens. But that doesn't matter to them in the short run, because they're still making way more here on a crappy salary than they did when they were starving back home... so they come here.

    So who should be punished: the person trying to feed their family, or the company taking advantage of that desire to save themselves money? This is America, land of capitalism, so... of course it's the immigrants instead of the business drawing them in. Because it's all about making as much money as you can, as long as you're here legally.

    Sigh.

    Re: Black History month, I know it's not PC to say but I think they either need to start dedicating every month to another culture as well or they need to let it go. After all, we don't have Irish Indentured Servant month, and they were a problem long after black people were set free.

    Just sayin'.
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    Hard to believe this kind of thing surprises people, as it's not like racial profiling isn't already present in other states as an unwritten guideline.

    Anyway, all of a school's classes are on a political agenda; the removal of black history would only end up angering folks and wouldn't solve any of the problem, as it would be replaced with more BS.

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    The way I heard it, the law allows police to ask for identification from people they have already stopped for other reasons (speeding, jaywalking, murder, etc.), and whom they have reason to believe may be an illegal immigrant (i.e., something more substantial than "He looks kinda Hispanic"). It does not allow them to just stop people randomly on the street for no reason, it just allows them to ask for proof of immigration status in addition to driver's license, etc.

    At least, that's what I heard, I haven't really looked into it.

    [Edit: The real problem, of course, is the overly high minimum wage and heavy tax burden that makes it worth it for employers to risk breaking the law to hire illegal immigrants.]
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    The way I heard it, the law allows police to ask for identification from people they have already stopped for other reasons (speeding, jaywalking, murder, etc.), and whom they have reason to believe may be an illegal immigrant (i.e., something more substantial than "He looks kinda Hispanic"). It does not allow them to just stop people randomly on the street for no reason, it just allows them to ask for proof of immigration status in addition to driver's license, etc.

    At least, that's what I heard, I haven't really looked into it.
    I wish that were true for all officers.

    Truck driver forced to show birth certificate claims racial-profiling | Phoenix News | Arizona News | azfamily.com | Featured Videos
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    The way I heard it, the law allows police to ask for identification from people they have already stopped for other reasons (speeding, jaywalking, murder, etc.), and whom they have reason to believe may be an illegal immigrant (i.e., something more substantial than "He looks kinda Hispanic"). It does not allow them to just stop people randomly on the street for no reason, it just allows them to ask for proof of immigration status in addition to driver's license, etc.

    At least, that's what I heard, I haven't really looked into it.

    [Edit: The real problem, of course, is the overly high minimum wage and heavy tax burden that makes it worth it for employers to risk breaking the law to hire illegal immigrants.]
    It's infuriating to me that the minimum wage law has priced legal residents out of work, while illegal immigrants swoop in to fill the supply shortage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    [Edit: The real problem, of course, is the overly high minimum wage and heavy tax burden that makes it worth it for employers to risk breaking the law to hire illegal immigrants.]
    I'll agree with the crappy tax structure, but not the overly high minimum wage part. At least here in CA, it's just about impossible to live on minimum wage as it is. If they cut it down even further we'd have even more problems with poverty and people with jobs forced to live on the streets than we already do.
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    Higher minimum wage salary = Less people receiving any wage salary.
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    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    It's infuriating to me that the minimum wage law has priced legal residents out of work, while illegal immigrants swoop in to fill the supply shortage.
    Oh c'mon man, they don't "swoop", they're just willing to take the crappy jobs for crappy pay. I have friends who have been out of work for a year and they still wouldn't take the pay that the day laborers would.

    So again I ask, whose fault is it? The folks who will take any work so they can feed their families, or the employers who deliberately go after them to save money?
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    Quote Originally Posted by GallopingQwerty View Post
    Oh c'mon man, they don't "swoop", they're just willing to take the crappy jobs for crappy pay.
    OK, put aside the word swoop.

    The reality of minimum wage is that it prices people out of work. Yeah, it's good for the people who find a job, but when you're on the inside looking out, things usually look pretty good.

    There are plenty of people who would be willing to work crappy jobs for crappy pay, but they can't because the law says that they must be hired for a minimum wage. This is why illegal immigrants find it so lucrative to come here. Minimum wage is essentially a subsidy of illegal immigration.

    I have friends who have been out of work for a year and they still wouldn't take the pay that the day laborers would.
    That's because many Americans will not work low paying jobs on principle, but there are still many who will.

    So again I ask, whose fault is it? The folks who will take any work so they can feed their families, or the employers who deliberately go after them to save money?
    Minimum wage is the fault of the government.
    Last edited by discojoe; 05-13-2010 at 11:36 PM. Reason: typo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crispy View Post
    Higher minimum wage salary = Less people receiving any wage salary.
    wage =/= salary.

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    Either way, this law in AZ is a direct result of people being afraid and angry. It's so much easier to point to people who have no legal recourse and say "Hey, this whole mess is THEIR fault! Get 'em!" when it's really the result of a shoddy system and decades of abusing that system.

    This law should not exist as it does: it is target the wrong people, and only creates a bigger tax burden on AZ than they already have. Plus it has the dubious distinction of not solving any of their problems at all, and in fact adds new ones involving harassing legal citizens because their skin is brown (which will equal loads of lawsuits, thus further taxing the system).

    If they really want to solve their problems, they need to target the folks who have actually done them harm and move with that.
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    I always though Black History Month was sort of insulting. I just wish history would be taught as it is. It doesn't need to revolve solely around old white guys however, so I agree on that. The history books I had in high school were retarded... war and old white guys were the key focus... other than that there might be a page on "what were black people doing in the 1920s?" or something, which I found even more insulting than not including that page. The problem is that the old white guy history is considered the "real" history and everything else seems to be considered "minority issues" and I don't understand why these distinctions are needed. I also don't understand why "US History" in the classes I took in high school seemed to mostly only be about presidents and wars... I mean it's a retarded representation of history considering that history is literally everything that happened in the past... I'd probably be more interested in reading people's diaries from a time period than reading "and then president X did this, and then X law was passed, and then tensions rose in X location and then X conflict broke out" I mean that could be covered on a timeline... it's a look at history as a series of wars and political actions, which is fine, I'd just rather it be titled that.

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    Boyfriend and I (non-citizen permanent resident and resident alien, respectively) will be traveling through Arizona soon. He will have to get a new copy of his green card to be safe in case for some reason we get checked. I will be right in between visas and might not have my new visa then. This is normally not a problem, but I might very well run into police officers who are not familiar with all the specifics of visa types (I am speaking from experience).

    I don't think anyone who is IS a citizen can quite comprehend how stressful these situations can be even for immigrants with legal papers. You make a tiny mistake (a document is missing a signature, for example) and it opens a HUGE can of worms. I understand that people in Arizona are not Nazis, but I would not move there after this law has been passed. Just knowing that I would have to carry my passport and legal documentation around permanently just in case (also because people often assume I am Hispanic when I am in the Southwest).

    The law will inconvenience, and probably worse, a lot of legal immigrants in Arizona and is overall just a complete idiocy.
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    As for Ethnic Studies, I have yet to hear a reasonable argument in favor of banning Ethnic Studies AND ENGLISH TEACHERS WITH AN ACCENT.

    As an English teacher with an accent, I feel profoundly discriminated against.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I always though Black History Month was sort of insulting. I just wish history would be taught as it is. It doesn't need to revolve solely around old white guys however, so I agree on that. The history books I had in high school were retarded... war and old white guys were the key focus... other than that there might be a page on "what were black people doing in the 1920s?" or something, which I found even more insulting than not including that page. The problem is that the old white guy history is considered the "real" history and everything else seems to be considered "minority issues" and I don't understand why these distinctions are needed. I also don't understand why "US History" in the classes I took in high school seemed to mostly only be about presidents and wars... I mean it's a retarded representation of history considering that history is literally everything that happened in the past... I'd probably be more interested in reading people's diaries from a time period than reading "and then president X did this, and then X law was passed, and then tensions rose in X location and then X conflict broke out" I mean that could be covered on a timeline... it's a look at history as a series of wars and political actions, which is fine, I'd just rather it be titled that.
    You can't teach all of history. Even in a comprehensive multi-part Western Civ class, you need to eventually pick and choose which topics to cover and which to omit.

    So the question becomes, why should we spend less time on World War I in order to talk about black history? Why should I learn less about the Industrial Revolution in order to learn about what was going on in Africa at the time?

    Yes, we should learn about the most relevant aspects of black American history, like Martin Luther King Jr., etc., but we shouldn't have this bloated month of learning in which students are forced to learn information that, if it were about white people, would be considered unimportant and not worth spending valuable school time on.

    This is why teachers should be the sole arbiters of their curriculum, with parents overseeing what is being taught. In a perfect world, politicians wouldn't even be allowed to talk about changing school curriculum.
    Last edited by discojoe; 05-13-2010 at 11:29 PM. Reason: typo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    Boyfriend and I (non-citizen permanent resident and resident alien, respectively) will be traveling through Arizona soon. He will have to get a new copy of his green card to be safe in case for some reason we get checked. I will be right in between visas and might not have my new visa then. This is normally not a problem, but I might very well run into police officers who are not familiar with all the specifics of visa types (I am speaking from experience).

    I don't think anyone who is IS a citizen can quite comprehend how stressful these situations can be even for immigrants with legal papers. You make a tiny mistake (a document is missing a signature, for example) and it opens a HUGE can of worms. I understand that people in Arizona are not Nazis, but I would not move there after this law has been passed. Just knowing that I would have to carry my passport and legal documentation around permanently just in case (also because people often assume I am Hispanic when I am in the Southwest).

    The law will inconvenience, and probably worse, a lot of legal immigrants in Arizona and is overall just a complete idiocy.
    Police officers are already heavy handed assholes. I doubt this law will actually result in a net increase in people being treated like children by law enforcement agents.

    And I seriously doubt that you're going to be shipped off to Mexico for looking Hispanic. Yeah, you might catch some shit from a cop (keyword: might) but I don't think you really have reason to complain about this one law whose enforcement will probably not result in the kinds of blatant discrimination you're talking about -- at least not in levels greater than those that already occur in the southern and southwestern United States.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    As for Ethnic Studies, I have yet to hear a reasonable argument in favor of banning Ethnic Studies AND ENGLISH TEACHERS WITH AN ACCENT.

    As an English teacher with an accent, I feel profoundly discriminated against.
    My best economics teacher so far has been an Iranian immigrant with hilariously broken English. He arrived dirt poor, thirty years old, not knowing a single word of English besides hotdog. He learned English, went to school, married an attractive white woman (only including that for lulz) and got a doctorate in International Trade & Finance.

    He doesn't whine or complain about discrimination, which he probably does experience, but rather is grateful for being in a country where he is actually allowed to go to school and earn a PhD and not have to wait in line for his family's weekly chicken or worry about the secret police knocking on his door in the middle of the night (which does happen there). He brought his aunt here and she broke down in tears after taking one step inside a generic grocery store.

    I think people who come here from nanny states feel like they're not being properly babied and coddled, whereas people who come here from police states are wowed and amazed and grateful to Allah for all the freedom and prosperity at their fingertips.

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    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    And I seriously doubt that you're going to be shipped off to Mexico for looking Hispanic. Yeah, you might catch some shit from a cop (keyword: might) but I don't think you really have reason to complain about this one law whose enforcement will probably not result in the kinds of blatant discrimination you're talking about -- at least not in levels greater than those that already occur in the southern and southwestern United States.
    I expect discrimination to occur, but only time will tell. I don't like the idea that someone who stops me for speeding can ask me for my immigration documents. I also find it a bit frightening that when they think they are not in order, they can take me in. This is especially relevant in my current situation in which I am switching from one visa to the next.
    I complain not only for my sake. It is a total bitch to deal with law enforcement when it comes to immigration issues and yes it is likely to occur more frequently when police officers know that THEY can be subject to complaints if they don't check on people.

    He doesn't whine or complain about discrimination, which he probably does experience, but rather is grateful for being in a country where he is actually allowed to go to school and earn a PhD and not have to wait in line for his family's weekly chicken or worry about the secret police knocking on his door in the middle of the night (which does happen there). He brought his aunt here and she broke down in tears after taking one step inside a generic grocery store.

    I think people who come here from nanny states feel like they're not being properly babied and coddled, whereas people who come here from police states are wowed and amazed and grateful to Allah for all the freedom and prosperity at their fingertips.
    I don't want to be babied or coddled, but I also don't want to be singled out and harassed. I was granted legal stay because institutions consider my background an asset, not because I begged to be let in. It's a give and take. I like it here very much, but it's not the world's single and almighty nation of prosperity and freedom. It suits my career goals and it's a fun place to live.

    Plenty of Iranians get Ph.Ds in Iran and plenty of U.S.-Americans do not because they don't have the opportunity. And there are grocery stores in Iran, you know...?
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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    A general note about history.
    What is considered history or what is given priority as historically significant is not static, nor is it universal.
    When a national or region selects possible curriclum, it is shaping a collective national identity, a shared inclusive narrative.

    If a curriculum focuses on white people, who for centuries had the privilage of writing history, particularly in the US, then this can help maintain and reinforce and a national narrative that excludes Black people.

    There are other examples, for instance the Irish. There are two reasons that differentiates the Irish american narrative from the African american narrative. Firstly the Irish did not have their personal or cultural identities, stripped when being bought over to the US as slaves. And shared skin culture allows for easier assimilation into the established cultural narrative.

    Due to the circumstances in which many Black Americans where bought to the U.S., as a race has had it's contributions vastly underepresented.
    And whilst I realsise that the topic was relating to "A history month in the U.S." similar projects happen elsewhere, for example in the U.K.

    This change in emphasis and perspective on educating and understanding 'history', is in fact about shifting the national identity to make it more inclusive, fairer and equal.

    And history is always political, whether it is selected by teachers or politicians. If a teacher is given free licence to choose a curriculum, his or her choice will be as much shaped by his or her politics as any government.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bionicgoat View Post
    I'm at a friend's house on her computer so I can't respond fully at the moment, but quickly...

    Please keep in mind the current state of politics in the US and the impossibility of getting a non skewed interpretation from either side of any action that is taken. I'm fairly certain that Tcaud reads, trusts, and bases his views on information from the Left which is no more trustable in this climate as a 100% reliable source as is information coming from the Right.

    The citizens of Arizona are not nazis. We are aware of the problems and issues that come out of this law, and ARE working through addressing them as things progress. Arizona has a massive Hispanic population (legal citizens) and there is absolutely no way that every Hispanic seen on the street will be (or even can be) stopped and harrased for their "papers". It's just not going to happen, and it IS NOT in the slightest the intent of this law or how it will be practiced on the streets.

    @SlackerMom... in both cases, if not US citizens and not in possesion of proof of legal immigrant status both COULD be at least detained I think, but would be able to very easily fix the situation without penalties by providing that documentation to the courts at a later date (much like getting pulled over with proof of drivers insurance and getting the charge dropped by providing that proof later (which is standard procedure in Arizona courts)


    The reality of this situation is that the police and citizens are well aware of the slippery slope, the national media focus, and the concerns over this law. People are not going to be harrased for their documentation unless there is OBVIOUS reason to suspect them. If you are wearing grimy just walked 100 miles through the desert clothing and do not speak a word of English, you fall into that category. If not, there is a 99% chance that you are not even going to be looked at with a second glance.

    Yes, this sort of this is not pretty and there are dangers that need to be kept in mind and worked out as it is implimented in the real world. But action needs to be taken, the feds are not taking those actions in any way that is resolving this problem, so we as a state are being left with the ugly (but nessesary) task of doing it for ourselves or at least creating enough of a ruccus that the feds do their job and deal with it for us.
    According to reports, traffic across the border of every kind is at a standstill. Business between Arizona and Mexico has stopped. It's like Arizona become a different country all of a sudden.

    "We as a state, we as a state"... there is no state, only the country. There is no state identity. That's a legacy that needs to be abolished. Creating such nationalist furor where there normally isn't any... that's what right wing extremists like Brewer do. Brewer is creating situations that are forbidden by the constitution. The judges need to step up and do something. It just takes one judge to strike down this law so... where is it?

    I actually read the law. I've read the entire text of the law. It says only that the cop needs to have "reasonable suspicion" a person is in the country illegally before stopping them, without outlining the definition of reasonable. It's not the good guys, but the bad guys that matter: good cops will not use this power, bad cops now can. That was Brewer's entire intent: to empower sociopaths to act on their urges and rationalize their integration into society without appropriate checks and balances. Because as a sociopath, that's what Brewer does.

    It's a matter of probably a couple months before we hear of a Rodney King-style report of how the police are abusing this new-found power. And it's not just in Arizona -- 12 other states are considering similar legislation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    wage =/= salary.
    You know what I meant! Minimum wage is bad etc.
    ILI (FINAL ANSWER)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crispy View Post
    You know what I meant! Minimum wage is bad etc.
    Sorry, I was just being academic. From an economics standpoint, it is important to differentiate between wages and salaries, though they are basically the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by somavision View Post
    Due to the circumstances in which many Black Americans where bought to the U.S., as a race has had it's contributions vastly underepresented.
    And whilst I realsise that the topic was relating to "A history month in the U.S." similar projects happen elsewhere, for example in the U.K.
    Well I think if I were black I might feel rather singled out and given some sort of "you're so special because of your ethnicity" award during that entire month, and once again I wouldn't be able to simply be a person and think of myself as simply a person without all these constant reminders that I'm actually not a person, but a black person (a person who always comes with a caveat). This is generally why I find it insulting, and I find it as an excuse to not actually fix problems of representation by just throwing it in on the side as though that makes it all better (kind of like the two pages of "what were black people doing during such and such time?" in a history book). And it needn't be black history month--I would feel this way as a member of any "group" that has a special day/month devoted to it. I mean other people might feel differently about this, but anyway. And maybe I am under-representing the purpose/meaning of a cultural identity (which can be powerful and a source of strength/identity) as I don't personally feel attached to any such identity and like feeling I don't have to have one. My feeling of it being insulting though rests on how I think I would feel in such a situation and how I could understand one might feel. Of course having history taught to me that completely neglected the history of those of my ethnic group as though we don't exist at all and never did except in mere snippets would also feel unfair and insulting... but I might rather be invisible than directly insulted by having a special month that I'm supposed to feel proud about and that again ties me as belonging to a group, where I can never be free of it. Of course being invisible often comes at a high price: the price of not mattering... and so in the end, it is far worse.

    This is getting really off topic. I didn't really want to say much on the actual topic as I'm not quite sure what has happened (I consistently neglect to watch/read the news) and I know that tcaudilllg tends to exaggerate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    I expect discrimination to occur, but only time will tell. I don't like the idea that someone who stops me for speeding can ask me for my immigration documents. I also find it a bit frightening that when they think they are not in order, they can take me in. This is especially relevant in my current situation in which I am switching from one visa to the next.
    I complain not only for my sake. It is a total bitch to deal with law enforcement when it comes to immigration issues and yes it is likely to occur more frequently when police officers know that THEY can be subject to complaints if they don't check on people.

    I don't want to be babied or coddled, but I also don't want to be singled out and harassed. I was granted legal stay because institutions consider my background an asset, not because I begged to be let in. It's a give and take. I like it here very much, but it's not the world's single and almighty nation of prosperity and freedom. It suits my career goals and it's a fun place to live.

    Plenty of Iranians get Ph.Ds in Iran and plenty of U.S.-Americans do not because they don't have the opportunity. And there are grocery stores in Iran, you know...?
    The short answer is that the Republican Party has selected a new minority to pick on: Hispanics.

    What you need to do is point out to your Hispanic friends, and remind them that it is imperative that they show up and the polls in November.

    As for Brewer, I think a prison cell is the best place for her, and for the people who voted for this legislation. The dynamic is changed and it's time for progressives and liberals to exercise a strong hand to safeguard their rights against their fanatical enemies.

    BG, you don't seem to understand, probably because you don't know enough police: the sliding down the slippery slope has already begun. You see it in Kim's feelings now -- it's a revival of the civil rights struggles of the 60s. These rationalizations are how tragedy begins. One rationalization follows another, until eventually people have rationalized killing each other. We'll wait and see if Arizona gets its act together in November, or I'm afraid it will be necessary to do some house cleaning in America, the military way. I personally don't want to have to face this forever. I want a settlement, a moment where the Discojoes of the world feel cowed and powerless. Personally I think there should be internment camps for suspected racists. They are the real plague infecting society.

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