Thread for Unbiased descriptions of Alpha types

[Gilly]

So here will be the place for the UNBIASED (yes, Peter, that means you) description of other types from the point of view of the ENTp. There will be no flaming, no arguing, and absolutely NO bitching in this thread. There will also be no needlessly offensive type descriptions.

LOL what am I saying, there will be all of those things. Oh well. Just try not to.

For starters...



At first, she will seem like just another one in the crowd. She'll giggle at your jokes and pay attention to you, but after a while, you'll notice that she can actually be good for you; she begins to stand out once you make an effort to get to know her better. She's giggly, affectionate, and, above all, natural. Enter the ISFp.

The easiest way to recognize an ISFp is that, once you've gotten to know her, everything will be fun. You could sit on a log and throw sticks at a piece of dog shit with her, and it would be the time of your life.

Your first impression will most likely be one of two things. The first possibility will be one close to INFp: she will be happy-go-lucky, bubbly, and emotional. These are the Feeling subtypes. They should be approached openly and with whatever kind of outgoing behavior you can possibly muster: an open approach is not unmerited, and your assertion of interest will most likely be welcomed. However, don't be overly aggressive: unlike an INFp, she will not be attracted just by your assertion, and you will need to prove that you're "deep and interesting' before you can really catch her eye.

The second type, however, is much more reserved, and by far the less approachable type. Upon first impression, she may seem somewhat similar to the former, but it will become apparent once you observe her habits that she is actually much more withdrawn. This is the Sensory subtype. She can definitely be sociable, but tends to need her "alone time," and even when she gets to know you, will not give up her "me time" to indulge in your ideas. She can, however, be quite the gossiper: she is very receptive to your objective analyses of social situations, so use whatever cues you pick up from other people and tell her how you see things developing within your circle of friends. You will definitely need more time to crack this egg than with the former; however, a rewarding and stable relationship, friend or significant other, can be had with patience and a tactful display of interest.

No matter which subtype you encounter, if you play your cards right, you can be sure of a either a good friend who will tolerate your occasional tactlessness, and will even help you to mend the wounds that your behavior can cause. In addition, she can provide the occasional emotional recharge that you inevitably need, and your attention-seeking behavior will wane the longer you're with her, to the point that other people will be able to appreciate your real talents to a much greater extent than before. As long as you can maintain stable relations with her, you have an ace in the hole, someone who can help both you and others overcome/overlook your weaknesses, and will reward your strengths and help you develop them. After all, that's what duality's about, right?

[Gilly]

The Ebullient ESFj (Ethical subtype)

Like the ISFp, the ESFj will listen to your ideas, and often even try to coax them out of you. An ESFj will make your ideal bar/club/party-hopping friend, will introduce you to everyone they know, and, above all, give you an opportunity to spread your influence. They can be your notorious partner in crime: they'll listen to your crazy-as-fuck ideas, and, unlike others, will often have the balls and sheer love of fun to go along with them.

You can usually spot this ESFj at, or near, the center of a crowd, talking away and sharing gossip about friends. You can get their attention pretty easily by just making a stupid face or saying something outrageous, and they will most likely redirect the attention of their little group in your direction: this, as we know, is always a good thing, and can, as mentioned before, be useful for spreading your ideas and influence.

The Home-Making ESFj (Sensory Subtype)


This ESFj will remind you much more of our dear friend the ethical subtype ISFp, but is distinguishable from the ISFp by it's avid attention to other people:they have plenty of attention to give, and will always give it to you, especially if you impart them with some analysis or logical advice concerning whatever drama they have going on, be it school, family, or friendships. Where the ISFp likes to hear your analysis, the ESFj LOVES it: they will, unlike the ISFp, actively seek it out and be up front about asking you for it.

These types usually love to cook, tell stories, and generally make people comfortable, so if they offer, take advantage. You'll always end up reciprocating with advice or creative solutions to whatever they're dealing with; this they will make sure of. Be careful, though: they know how to coax what they want out of you, so be sure that you're not being manipulated. This, however, is unlikely, and you can almost always be assured of a steadfast friend in the ESFj.

[Creepy-aurora_faerie]

Sounds good.

[Fermi]

Do it better Kraus!

*pokes kraus at the side with a long, bony finger* (i'm getting quite good at these emote things )

[Fermi]

bla bla yes mommy

any ideas? the nr.1 SLE on this forum perhaps? any objections?

[Creepy-aurora_faerie]

That sounds good!
Ch-ch-ch-changes!

TURN AND FACE THE STRAIN!!!

[Fermi]

betah?

[Fermi]

I'll remove the "!!!" though..


so entp think that, eh? (trying to sound ontopic)

[Fermi]

They should do one on ESTPs!

We will do one in return! (lie) hihihi

[Fermi]

damn ghetto-girl! What does the scizzle niszzle fizzle mean?!

[Gilly]

The ESTp

At first glance, you will see the ESTp as one of two things.

Some ESTps will appear to be more confident, assertive versions of yourself. These are most liekly the Thinking Subtypes. They seem ideal in a way. However, upon closer inspection, you will se that they possess neither your ability for lateral combinatory thinking, nor (usually) your wide-ranging and diverse knowledge base. They can be just as intellectual as you, but will probably not have the background knowledge that you have obtained through your extensive "skimming" of so many topics. They make a great pair for a good intellectual discussion (as long as you can hold each others' attention), and comradarie should never be ruled out.

The other type of ESTp will give you a more negative impression. He will seem like an over-aggressive, beer-chugging frat brat with little tact. This is the sensory subtype. He usually doesn't possess the intellectual capabilities of the former, but is usually more successful in bullying other people around and making himself seem manly. Beware: he's well aware of one of your weaker spots, and will take full advantage of it if you give him reason to. However, at heart, he has no desire to do you ill will, and if you have the patience for him, he can be useful in the same way that the ESFj is. He often has many acquaintances, and you can use them, if you get his attention, to once again spread your ideas and influence.

ESTps can be of good use to ENTps: the two will often have similar goals or motivations, but do not often work well together, because they have a hard time overlooking each others' weaknesses. However, with effort, the two can make fairly good friends, and will pass time well together, as long as there isn't an Fe type nearby; if this is the case, they will usually end up competing for attention, and relations could potentially turn sour.

[Gilly]

Can you guys cut the bullshit? I want to actually have a serious thread for once.

[Joy]

If we cut the bullshit it will smell even worse.

[Gilly]

If we cut the bullshit it will smell even worse.

Oooo, it stings.

Why are you and joy so cranky today?

[Joy]

If we cut the bullshit it will smell even worse.

Oooo, it stings.

Why are you and joy so cranky today?

I'm not cranky at all.

[ScanDave]

I would say the ESTp one is dead on from my experiences.

Awesome job so far.

[Expat]

The most insightful was the ESFj one.

The ISFp one wasn't very objective. While I'd recognize the ESTp and ESFj from your descriptions, even if I didn't know who they were about, I don't think I'd have recognized the ISFp. I know that you see them as your duals, and I, as conflictors - - but your description seemed to be more about your infatuation with them than about ISFps as a type.

I'm not sure that writing about your dual was the best place to start. Why don't you try the ISFj? I'd be very interested. Be hard on your conflictor.

[Creepy-]

Edited for straightness.

[Gilly]

The most insightful was the ESFj one.

The ISFp one wasn't very objective. While I'd recognize the ESTp and ESFj from your descriptions, even if I didn't know who they were about, I don't think I'd have recognized the ISFp. I know that you see them as your duals, and I, as conflictors - - but your description seemed to be more about your infatuation with them than about ISFps as a type.

I'm not sure that writing about your dual was the best place to start. Why don't you try the ISFj? I'd be very interested. Be hard on your conflictor.

When you ARE infatuated with one, it's hard to be insightful rather than flattering :wink:

I'll give it a good rebuffing when I'm feeling more objective.

[Gilly]

ISTj

Sensory subtpye

Upon first impression, you might be worried that you've run into your conflictor, the dreaded ISFj. The outwardly brusque manner and hard-working nature are, at first, a turn off to those of us who value our greater potential above the nitty-gritty stuff. However, once you've talked to her, you will realize that the ISTj is much better suited to interaction with you than your conflicter. She may be a bit over-the-top sometimes, but is usually grounded, and can either be handled or dealt with fairly easily.

Logical Subtype

These types will more likely be appealing to your better side in the beginning. They often will share some intellectual interests with you, and discussions can be interesting and stimulating, especially because, more often than not, they will have much different points of view, but will be able to relate them in a language you understand. The shared interest in finding the "essence" of things can make for good intellectual discourse (if you catch her in the right mood).

Sensory Subtype

The sensory subtypes are less likely to be your friends. They will seem passive-aggressive and somewhat pretentious to you. They aren't afraid of stepping on your toes once in a while; don't let them. Push back if you have to. They aren't the intellectual equals of the logical subtypes, but often have more extensive knowledge than you on a particular subject. Discussions can definitely be interesting, but you won't change their mind about anything without overhwelming evidence, and in the end they will end up trying to come back at you. The key is to not let them step on you; if you can do this, you can have victory over the sensory-subtype ISTj.


Either of these types might be mistaken for a new and improved INTj at first, complete with analytical abilities, and social skills to boot. However, conflicts arise when you disagree in discussion, and the ISTj is unable to see your point of view. The best way to be productive, in this case, is to not be aggressive with them, and let them be stubborn in their ways; it's going to be painful, but if you try to get them to see things your way, they will only clam up and shut down.

[Gilly]

INTj

Not gonna lie: at first, he might seem like a pansy. He might also seem like that braniac you might kinda like to know better. Best case scenario: he's the semi-confident guy your friends know who seems like he would make for an interesting conversation. And he most certainly will: He's your mirror, the INTj.

The first type of INTj has strengths very comparable to your own, and might even seem like another ENTp at first. If he's outgoing enough, you most likely WILL mistake him for an ENTp. This is the intuitive subtype, your ultimate "pal." He's interested in the same things as you, can be social if he's willing to try, and will often see things your ways, or at least can be easily convinced to do so. He makes a good "deflector:" bounce your ideas off him, and see what he comes up with. He'll often be able to iprove upon them, and perhaps even help you understand them better.

The second type of INTj, the logical subtype, is basically good for doing your math homework. Kidding aside, he, too, can make a great conversation partner: his ultimate ability in your eyes is his ability to make you see the other side of the coin. His logic is VERY well developed, and he can easily help you see holes in your arguments. You might be slightly intellectually threatened by him at first, but as you get to know him, you will realize that the two of you have very complimentary abilities, and make a great team for any kind of debate or analytical work.

The great similarities, combined with just enough difference to make things run smoothly, makes the mirror relationship between the INTj and ENTp very desireable. The one possible source of friction comes in the rational/irrational dichotomy. The ENTp can seem unstable or whimsicle to the INTjs; likewise, the INTj may appear drab and too "planned" for the ENTp's tastes. However, their differences in approach tend to be made up for by the similarities in content and viewpoint; these are really only minor annoyances, rather than true causes of disharmony. There is seldom any kind of mistrust or ill-willed competition between the two, and in the case of either, conflicts are usually resolved or quickly forgotten because of their compatability.

[Expat]

I liked the ISTj and INTj ones, very to the point --

A couple of observations.

On ISTjs:

The best way to be productive, in this case, is to not be aggressive with them, and let them be stubborn in their ways; it's going to be painful, but if you try to get them to see things your way, they will only clam up and shut down.

That's also precisely the nature of the "illusion" part of ENTj-ISTj relationship, but with one difference -- it is possible to make them see your point of view if you overwhelm them with logic grounded on verifiable facts, but at the cost of leaving them confused and disorientated.

On INTjs: very positive I just missed possible friction due to the rational/irrational thing, which is my main problem when dealing with INTps, but perhaps it doesn't apply to all mirrors.

[FDG]

That's also precisely the nature of the "illusion" part of ENTj-ISTj relationship, but with one difference -- it is possible to make them see your point of view if you overwhelm them with logic grounded on verifiable facts, but at the cost of leaving them confused and disorientated.

Yep. They also get emotional sometimes, and at that point I feel a bit guilty..when they're really disorientated.

Acutally, I had to take data from the kms counter of my car and give my dad a comparison report in order to convince him that the route he was taking to work was not the shortest one. Gilligan, I know it's painful, but you coul try somethig like that.

[Gilly]

ISTj description updated (sensory subtype)

[Gilly]

INFj

The first type of INFj may remind you a bit of a tender-hearted INTj. He may possibly share many interests with you, but has vastly differing motivations, from both yourself and INTjs, for gathering knowledge on them. His most distinguishing characteristic is his ability to smooth over tough relations with other people; he is VERY tactful, and will not hesitate to point out that you, indeed, are not. This is the intuitive subtype. Though you may share interests, his mind does not work the same way: he sees things in terms of black-and-whtie ethicality, and is not afraid to tell you when you've toed the line.

The second time is something more akin to a less viral ISFj. He will be affable, albeit not extremely outgoing, and always giving people the benefit of the doubt. This is the ethical subtype. He rarely shares your interests, except in a passing sort of way; he may have some kind of background knowledge of something that interests you, but he is usually too focused on his relationships with other people to delve as deeply into an intellectual pusuit as you do. He is less likely to call you on being unethical; rather, his opinion of you will simply diminish, and he will give you a very clear signals, without telling you outright, that he does not think highly of you.

Both types of INFjs share one defining characteristic in the eyes of an ENTp: you can't change their minds about anything. No matter how clearly you logically refute something, they will always maintain their viewpoint, and although they may be able to see your side of the coin, they will never acknowledge that which does not fit with their standards. This, combined with their ability to comprehend your lack of tact, is what necessitates the ENTp's wariness of an INFj in a situation in which supervision is a likely problem. You can always argue back and refute them, but more often than not, others will sympathize with their views on your lack of "proper" behavior.


Supervision:

The INFj is your supervisor. This basically means that she can see your blind spot.

For you, Fi is like that clump of hair that sticks out of the back of your head that you can't see in the mirror no matter how hard you try, and you can't fix it, but you know it's there. Having Fi PoLR is like, only you have an innate lack of understanding of social norms concerning proper behavior, psychological distance, and behavior around certain people. You are known for acting "unceremoniously." Unlike others, who either don't always notice or are willing to overlook, the INFj will ALWAYS notice, and usually point out (especially the intuitive subtypes) that you are behaving "unethically" or "improperly." The feeling of being supervised is something akin to the feeling you would have upon waking from one of those AWESOME dreams we all have about going to school naked: half embaressment, half helpessness, all shittiness.

So if you're a psychological masochist, go ahead and befriend an INFj. But remember that you're going to be subjected to constant criticism by someone you absolutely CANNOT convince to go away, someone your friends will scorn you for insulting in response, and someone who is just sensitive enough to both your weaknesses and your retorts that she will make you feel downright aweful by the end of any negative interaction.

[Creepy-]

Re: INFj

The 3rd paragraph doesn't read easily (though the message isn't obscured).

Aside from that, I think you've captured the ethicality very well. It's interesting to read your type descriptions, I read things I've never noticed before and in some places it seems incomplete. Enlightening

[Gilly]

INFj updated (Supervision)

[Jonathan]

Expat: The ISFp one wasn't very objective. While I'd recognize the ESTp and ESFj from your descriptions, even if I didn't know who they were about, I don't think I'd have recognized the ISFp. I know that you see them as your duals, and I, as conflictors - - but your description seemed to be more about your infatuation with them than about ISFps as a type. ,,, I'm not sure that writing about your dual was the best place to start. Why don't you try the ISFj? I'd be very interested. Be hard on your conflictor.

That is a really good point. I used to think that duals are the best for describing each other, but now I'd like to see everybody describe their conflictor type. That would be so enlightening.

[Jonathan]

PS....what I'd really be interested in is Expat's description of ISFp and Gilligan's description of ISFj. (Personally, I can't find any fault in either of those types.)

[Expat]

Smilingeyes has already written an ISFp profile from an ENTj point of view, in the Te thread in the Gamma forum. I agree with it, I may write another one from another point of view

[Jonathan]

You're talking about "New type descriptions - the Te thread." http://the16types.info/forums/viewto...?t=575&start=0?

That's a really good thread. I guess that at least shows I'm not an ENTj.

If someone came to me with lots of emotion, wanting to feel better about life's troubles, I would probably enjoy it, because it's nice to feel something for a change...makes life interesting...and also I would think I could probably help them by getting down to the essence of their problem, or just listening.

Also, I would overlook the content of what they were talking about and focus on the fact that the person's paying attention to me. The knottier the problems the person discusses, the more interesting.

[Gilly]

The INTp

This is a person who, upon first approach, will appear in one of two variations. The first will appear upright, usually somewhat outgoing, sometimes even mannerly, and will usually give you the impression that they are hiding something. This is the logical subtype. It's quite possible that the two of you will get along fabulously at first: it's not uncommon for INTps and ENTps to share similar interests and pursuits, such as logic, political science, and religion. Unlike you, they tend to have a kind of elitism about their opinions: they assume that they have explored all the possiblities, and have found the best one. You will be likely to play the devil's advocate and try to disturb their image of how they think things "are." Their "absolute certainty" attitude is likely to piss the hell out of you, and chances are you will open up all possible flaws in their arguments and make them feel bad about their opinions. However, in return, they will likely criticize you for being "wishy washy" and unsure of your own opinions, which, let's be honest, is true.

The other subtype, the intuitive, is much more likely to be persuaded to see things your way. However, they have a different kind of opinionated elitism: they give the impression, even moreso than the logical, that they are hiding something, or aren't saying everything on their minds. This is usually a defense mechanism, and the easiest way to expose them is to call them out up front and tell them to be straight with you. If they do, they will likely open up a vulnerable spot that is easy to attack; while it may be tempting to go for it, especially in an argument, don't: once you've proven them wrong, you really don't need to do anything more, and you've probably got enough enemies already. These types are more likely to attack you for your "unoriginality" or lack of creativity in formulating your opinions: again, this is true sometimes, but in reality it's an ad hominem attack that is meant to provoke. Just smile and remember that you are right.

One thing that is common to both ILIs is their approach to the issues that you share common interest in. They tend to have two opinions on everything: one is a logically connected, well thought-out viewpoint that is completely defensible and often logically consistent. The other, however, pertains more to their inner sense of romance and individuality, and is more likely an opinion that appeals to their own uniqueness and ability to be themselves (the logical subtype will lean more heavily on the former, and the intuitive the latter).

This, however, is a somewhat bedeviled view to take. The INTp is, more often than not, an artistic and unique individual, and although your pride may get in the way (both of you), you could both stand to learn a few things from each other. If cooperation is possible, great productivity and enlightenment for both parties is completely possible.

[implied]

very nice!

[Jonathan]

Their "absolute certainty" attitude is likely to piss the hell out of you, and chances are you will open up all possible flaws in their arguments and make them feel bad about their opinions. However, in return, they will likely criticize you for being "wishy washy" and unsure of your own opinions, which, let's be honest, is true.

The other subtype, the intuitive, is much more likely to be persuaded to see things your way. However, they have a different kind of opinionated elitism: they give the impression, even moreso than the logical, that they are hiding something, or aren't saying everything on their minds. This is usually a defense mechanism, and the easiest way to expose them is to call them out up front and tell them to be straight with you. If they do, they will likely open up a vulnerable spot that is easy to attack; while it may be tempting to go for it, especially in an argument, don't: once you've proven them wrong, you really don't need to do anything more, and you've probably got enough enemies already. These types are more likely to attack you for your "unoriginality" or lack of creativity in formulating your opinions: again, this is true sometimes, but in reality it's an ad hominem attack that is meant to provoke. Just smile and remember that you are right.

If the people on these forums who consider themselves are INTp really are, I don't think this description really fits. It seems that most INTps are quite open to logical argument, not really bothered if someone finds a problem with their reasoning. Anyhow, in Socionics, is supposed to be the kind of thinking that's readily adaptable to new information.

If anything, it's the people who consider themselves INTjs who are very defensive and combative if you find a problem with what they've said. That doesn't necessarily fit most people's view of what is supposed to be like, but it appears to be so in Socionics.

Also, I wouldn't think of INTps as the type to criticize someone as wishy-washy. Maybe ENTjs are the ones who do that.

Of course there's a certain degree of dispute about who the *real* INTps and INTjs are.

[Creepy-]

My philosophy teacher was INTp.


<edited for subjectiveness>

[Jonathan]

Upon first impression, you might be worried that you've run into your conflictor, the dreaded ISFj.

By the way, why is it that so many people here are so ready to pounce on their conflictor type? It's as if the theory has told people that they should hate their conflictor, and so they talk about that type as if that person is odious in some way.

In reality, it seems that the conflict relation in Socionics is something much more subtle. It has been pointed out that conflict partners often attract at first, but problems show up later.

One of the SF types is probably my conflictor, but I can't really find much bad to say about any of them. All SFs are usually so nice and caring; and in work situations they don't mind doing the boring stuff; and they don't have their own creative idea of what to do to conflict with yours....so what's the problem?

What is it that you have against ISFjs anyhow?

[Gilly]

It's called hyperbole, dipshit. I get along fine with ISFjs.

[Jonathan]

Well, it's not only you....other people on the forums talk about their conflictor types in negative terms too.

[Creepy-]

Well, it's not only you....other people on the forums talk about their conflictor types in negative terms too.

Don't worry about it so much. I've just come to realize that for me to go about things in a reasonable manner, I have to stay away from ESFps - my conflicts. Sometimes I celebrate that realization quite a bit. Furthermore, I accentuate it for the sake of Socionics discussion, because it is an area that- for me, in my personal experience- really highlights a strong point of Socionics theory. Socionics has helped me to undersatnd why I don't get along with my conflict, or my near-conflicts, and I have actually improved my interaction with some people of those types. Part of it is understanding the reasoning as to why we just don't mix too well. But enough about me.

[Jonathan]

Don't worry about it so much. I've just come to realize that for me to go about things in a reasonable manner, I have to stay away from ESFps - my conflicts. Sometimes I celebrate that realization quite a bit. Furthermore, I accentuate it for the sake of Socionics discussion, because it is an area that- for me, in my personal experience- really highlights a strong point of Socionics theory. Socionics has helped me to undersatnd why I don't get along with my conflict, or my near-conflicts, and I have actually improved my interaction with some people of those types. Part of it is understanding the reasoning as to why we just don't mix too well. But enough about me.

Really? I'm very interested about that. How would your describe relationship with ESFps and how the conflict component comes into play?