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Thread: exploring the 4th and 8th functions in duality

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    Default exploring the 4th and 8th functions in duality

    My observations:

    4th function: Something we're obviously crappy at. We tend to just simply overlook things related to this aspect of reality. If for whatever reason we find ourselves focusing on it, it feels confusing and frustrating, and it seems like there's no satisfactory solution to be had. We feel helpless, like no matter what we do we're still going to have problems in this area. There's just no way to win. Might make us wonder what's wrong with us.

    8th function: Something we're proficient at and actually find sort of fun. It's not a big deal though in that we don't expect others to be good at it (and don't mind simply taking care of it for them). We've got more than enough to go around. We actually find our dual's blindness to this area endearing. It's amusing or cute. We recognize issues related to their weakness in this area as something that needs to be addressed, but at the same time we see that when they focus on it they don't get anywhere. It just stresses them out and detracts from the things we appreciate about them, their strengths. When they're simply overlooking it, it's easy enough to deal with through demonstration of our 1st and 2nd functions, and they respond well. We're basically doing it for them without making them feel bad about it or somehow flawed or lacking. When they are focusing on it, the best thing to do is generally to just encourage them not to focus on it and try to draw their attention back to their 1st and 2nd functions (or to our 1st and 2nd functions). Once they stop worrying about it, they're once again in a position to be receptive to our aid.
    Last edited by Joy; 05-10-2010 at 06:59 PM.
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    Is this based on your self typing? I always read your posts with a heavy degree of skepticism because it seems like you do this often.

    your 4th description is cool.

    The 8th function is actually a pretty big deal, joy. I mean, yeah, that description is valid too, the 8th doesnt really nitpick over little things. But if its really violated, or not met, or whatever the word is, NOT cool. Hence why the PoLR of our duals can sometimes frustrate us.
    <Crispy> what subt doesnt understand is that a healthy reaction to "FUCK YOU" is and not

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    Damn cell phone internet browser... once I have to start scrolling, it gets difficult to navigate within fields. I'll go back and edit that post to fix/complete it later.
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    Hmmm... I find that with the 8th function, I'm very competent, and almost too competent. I agree with the idea that says that you receive too much input from your eighth function, and you turn to your hidden agenda function as an alternative to keep you from focusing too much on the 8th function.

    But truth about the 4th function. I dunno, I just do my best not to deal with it, and hope I sail through on competence in other areas and sheer charm.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    My observations:

    4th function: Something you're obviously crappy at. You tend to just simply overlook things related to this aspect of reality. If for whatever reason you find yourself focusing on it, it feels confusing and frustrating, and it seems like there's no satisfactory solution to be had. You feel helpless, like no matter what you do you're still going to have problems in this area. Might make you wonder what's wrong with you.

    8th function: Something you're proficient at and actually find sort of fun. It's not a big deal though. You don't expect others to be good at it and don't mind just taking care of it for them. We actually find our dual's weakness in this area endearing. It's amusing or cute. If they're worrying about it too much though, we tell them not to. "Look, you're not getting anywhere by focusing on this. There are plenty of cool things about you, so stop feeling bad that you're not awesome at this. I actuallu find your weakness in that area attractive, so don't
    I would say PoLR is also malfunctioning - you mistakenly assess information related to it and it often comes off completely different than you wanted when you're using it (most noticeable to me with Fe, Te and Ni PoLRs, for obvious reasons, so it may not be really reliable), or you may respond in this way without realizing why, and the reactions of others to it, seemingly unfair, hurt.

    Demonstrative is something you are good at, but have very little control over. You don't really value it but can't withhold it easily. It's an obvious aspect of reality and dual's PoLR may be viewed as frustrating, but since you don't really expect them to respond to it anyway (no conscious use), there's no conflict as such.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    Hmmm... I find that with the 8th function, I'm very competent, and almost too competent. I agree with the idea that says that you receive too much input from your eighth function, and you turn to your hidden agenda function as an alternative to keep you from focusing too much on the 8th function.

    But truth about the 4th function. I dunno, I just do my best not to deal with it, and hope I sail through on competence in other areas and sheer charm.
    haha same here! (charm can go a loooong way)
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    Damn cell phone internet browser... once I have to start scrolling, it gets difficult to navigate within fields. I'll go back and edit that post to fix/complete it later.
    yeah i think they're completely hopeless

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    Yes, part of the PoLR is that it's a mental function. It's an area of self-consciousness and weakness. This is why there's variance in how the PoLR is expressed: you can have inhibited and hyper-conscious people who are fixated on not making mistakes (but make them anyway from time to time), and you can also have people who throw caution to the wind and just utterly ignore their PoLR's domain. A given individual can even manifest either style in different situations (I think... but don't hold me to that).

    The way I understand your demonstrative function interacts with your dual's PoLR is that you help alleviate strain on the PoLR by reframing that area in the HA's terms. This is how your dual can help you learn and adapt* without hurting you: any corrections you receive will be in favourable terms.

    In addition, while you're lenient with errors in the area, you can correct them. If this weren't the case, I'm sure XEIs would suffer indefinitely at the hands of their Fi-PoLR duals in the relationship sphere. These are people who can have downright NFI what they're doing. At the end of the day, though, Joy is also spot on: what many other people would see as a blunder, you totally gloss over. I quite like the crazy uninhibited antics of Fi-PoLRs I know.

    *I view duality as a self-correcting system and a therapeutic system. Two duals with chemistry there will both adapt to each other, as well as alleviate maladaptations carried over into the relationship from other sources (childhood, failed relationships, etc). In addition, dualised individuals become more resilient to unfavourable (out-of-quadra) environments and their negative influences.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    My observations:

    4th function: Something we're obviously crappy at. We tend to just simply overlook things related to this aspect of reality. If for whatever reason we find ourselves focusing on it, it feels confusing and frustrating, and it seems like there's no satisfactory solution to be had. We feel helpless, like no matter what we do we're still going to have problems in this area. There's just no way to win. Might make us wonder what's wrong with us.
    I've asked my landlord kindly to paint my popcorn ceiling 14 times (in 12 months and 2 times by phone call) without once raising my voice, but choaking on my words every time I ask because I feel embarrased not only for me because I have to resort to asking so often but also at his lack of concert and care. I'm afraid to tell my LSI brother in law about it because he has no reservations about Se and he will take a decisive action; I don't want the situation to get aggrivated and I don't like conflict.

    What's wrong with me?
    I'm getting a friend to handle it. I guess, I don't see painted popcorn ceiling of any real imporance or I would have found a solution, maybe part of this is my lack of concern for that task/ value of that task.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    8th function: Something we're proficient at and actually find sort of fun. It's not a big deal though in that we don't expect others to be good at it (and don't mind simply taking care of it for them). We've got more than enough to go around. We actually find our dual's blindness to this area endearing. It's amusing or cute. We recognize issues related to their weakness in this area as something that needs to be addressed, but at the same time we see that when they focus on it they don't get anywhere. It just stresses them out and detracts from the things we appreciate about them, their strengths. When they're simply overlooking it, it's easy enough to deal with through demonstration of our 1st and 2nd functions, and they respond well. We're basically doing it for them without making them feel bad about it or somehow flawed or lacking. When they are focusing on it, the best thing to do is generally to just encourage them not to focus on it and try to draw their attention back to their 1st and 2nd functions (or to our 1st and 2nd functions). Once they stop worrying about it, they're once again in a position to be receptive to our aid.
    yeah, I show it in my writing all the time; for me it's time; I say things like "It will happen in such and such a way.... This is the best time for that, so do this or that..." I find my dual's blindness to this area annoying, that's why I jump in and take action here. Like, when my cousin is running on the third hour of painting an f-ing door and I am starving. I say, "Stop" food is the time now. Yes, true, I am very soft about it. I tell her things like "you can't have it any better then that (in reference to the standard/or quality of the work she is reaching for" in the hopes of pulling her towards another task.
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 05-10-2010 at 07:24 PM.

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    Initial post fixed.



    I'm still exploring this topic... How often do we just flat out say "you're overlooking this, and you should do this to fix the situation" regarding our dual's PoLR? As long as our approach is still largely through our 1st and 2nd functions, maybe this wouldn't feel like a PoLR hit to them?

    Also, do we approach issues related to our 8th function differently with different types?

    And where exactly is the line between our 1st/2nd functions and our 8th function? The 8th function is unconscious, and our 1st and 2nd functions are our "default" mode of operation. No matter what we're doing, we're still processing information primarily through our ego block. However, I do think we're equally capable of focusing on our 3rd and 4th functions (as these functions are conscious). They're weak and as such we're likely to make a mess of them, but we're still capable of using them consciously.

    Focusing primarily on our 1st function means pulling our attention away from our 3rd function, and focusing primarily on our 2nd function means pulling attention away from our 4th function. Similarly, focusing on our 3rd and 4th functions means pulling attention away from our 1st and 2nd functions. Our dual is like, "Ew, no. Don't do that. You're just making a mess. I like it better when you focus on your 1st and 2nd functions."

    The interaction of the 3rd and 7th functions is a bit different though in that our 3rd function is something we feel compelled to do, and the 7th function is something we tend to just ignore. I actually think that these two functions play out differently than the 4th/8th in duality in that sometimes our duals might have a point when they bring up things related to their 3rd/our 7th functions. A little bit of back and forth on the subject results in finding a good balance. Through this "back and forth" we ultimately we each end up going back to focusing on our 1st functions again and together finding the solution there (maybe in this way it really isn't all that different from the 4th/8th functions after all), but the 3rd/7th functions can't be ignored entirely.
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    Hmmm... I find that with the 8th function, I'm very competent, and almost too competent. I agree with the idea that says that you receive too much input from your eighth function, and you turn to your hidden agenda function as an alternative to keep you from focusing too much on the 8th function.
    Interesting. I've not heard this before, but in a way it makes a lot of sense. My problem with it though is that the 8th function is supposed to be unconscious.

    But truth about the 4th function. I dunno, I just do my best not to deal with it, and hope I sail through on competence in other areas and sheer charm.
    LOL

    I love it. My two xEI friends (yes, I recently made another irl xEI friend, a new coworker) do this. And it often works for them! It works so well in fact that sometimes it baffles me. And sometimes it backfires, of course. It certainly works on me every time though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian View Post
    *I view duality as a self-correcting system and a therapeutic system. Two duals with chemistry there will both adapt to each other, as well as alleviate maladaptations carried over into the relationship from other sources (childhood, failed relationships, etc).
    Exactly. I recently explained this to a dual friend, saying that a huge part of the theory of Socionics is that when you spend a lot of time around people who don't value the same things you do, you end up becoming psychologically unbalanced because you focus on your weaknesses instead of your strengths. Being around a dual is psychologically balancing because your dual sees you using your weak functions and is like, "eh, no good. I like it better when you focus on your strong areas." He said that he can definitely see how duality is psychologically balancing and asked if there's anything that he focuses on too much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    I've asked my landlord kindly to paint my popcorn ceiling 14 times (in 12 months and 2 times by phone call) without once raising my voice, but choaking on my words every time I ask because I feel embarrased not only for me because I have to resort to asking so often but also at his lack of concert and care. I'm afraid to tell my LSI brother in law about it because he has no reservations about Se and he will take a decisive action; I don't want the situation to get aggrivated and I don't like conflict.

    What's wrong with me?
    I'm getting a friend to handle it. I guess, I don't see painted popcorn ceiling of any real imporance or I would have found a solution, maybe part of this is my lack of concern for that task/ value of that task.
    You obviously do think the ceiling is important or you wouldn't be worrying about it so much.

    Why does it even need to be painted? Is it just a crappy color and you want it changed, or was there a water leak? If the issue is water, then the most important thing here is making sure that the problem has been corrected so you don't end up with further water damage and mold.

    And what makes her responsible for painting it? Did she say she would before you moved in? Does the lease state that the landlord will paint the ceiling upon the tenant's request?

    And why don't you just paint it? I mean, the materials couldn't possibly cost that much, and it would save you from having to deal with the landlord. Plus it'll get done faster. If there's water staining, use a few coats of Kilz over it before you apply the regular paint or the stain will just bleed through.
    Last edited by Joy; 05-12-2010 at 03:13 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    You obviously do think the ceiling is important or you wouldn't be worrying about it so much.

    Why does it even need to be painted? Is it just a crappy color and you want it changed, or was there a water leak? If the issue is water, then the most important thing here is making sure that the problem has been corrected so you don't end up with further water damage and mold.

    And what makes her responsible for painting it? Did she say she would before you moved in? Does the lease state that the landlord will paint the ceiling upon the tenant's request?

    And why don't you just paint it? I mean, the materials couldn't possibly cost that much, and it would save you from having to deal with the landlord. Plus it'll get done faster. If there's water staining, use a few coats of Kilz over it before you apply the regular paint or the stain will just bleed through.
    the person who lived there before I rented it painted the place in patches so it's uneven; I like even. I tried painting on my own, but the activity is very draining for me physically; I can only paint about 10 minutes per day and then I am burned out. That would take me 32.5 days on my own...ughh well.

    When I moved in, I asked the landlord to do it after I purchased the colors, because I did not want him to paint the place without my supervision. No water stains at all, just a mix of odd colors on the ceiling. I wanted to supervise the quality of the work that was going to be performed (it's kinda in my nature).

    I can't tell the difference between what is trivial and important. What is important...gosh I have no idea, at least in this case...more important to have it painted or not?

    Filatova on both of us as EII
    "This is why people often exploit him. (damn Se PoLR; the landlord is taking advantage of me I know it) He needs such a partner, submitting to whom, he can shield himself from excessive chores. ...Often he cannot distinguish between a triviality and what is really important. He knows what he can do but does not know what he needs to do."
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 05-10-2010 at 08:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    Demonstrative is something you are good at, but have very little control over. You don't really value it but can't withhold it easily.
    This is true of the way I experience , my 8th function. I'm good at thinking about how events and processes will unfold, seeing the patterns with the events, and predicting what may happen in the future. It's not something I really value, but I do it all the time. I can't really prevent myself from not doing it.
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    Excellent description, Joy. I particularly noticed the following comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    We actually find our dual's blindness to this area endearing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Don't listen to Joy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    Don't listen to Joy.
    aw, c'mon, you know these descriptions are quality!
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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    aw, c'mon, you know these descriptions are quality!
    The OP is full of shit that Joy got from me. I can remember explaining it to her.

    Plagiarism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    The OP is full of shit that Joy got from me. I can remember explaining it to her.

    Plagiarism.
    then we SHOULD listen to her, if she's espousing your wisdom.
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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    then we SHOULD listen to her, if she's espousing your wisdom.
    If she's stealing my observations, then she's not credible and you shouldn't listen to her, regardless of whether the information in this topic happens to be valid.

    (For the record, I don't really think that Joy isn't credible in terms of socionics, nor do I care that she blatantly stole my observations and passed them off as her own in this topic.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by thePirate View Post
    The 8th function is actually a pretty big deal, joy. I mean, yeah, that description is valid too, the 8th doesnt really nitpick over little things. But if its really violated, or not met, or whatever the word is, NOT cool. Hence why the PoLR of our duals can sometimes frustrate us.
    This might be true. I tend to ignore Si except for matters of my own personal comfort and the comfort of those who are in my care, like pets or sick people.

    ENFjs probably would appreciate my Si usage as far as keeping a clean house and staying healthy is concerned, as it is done in an Se sort of way, but I can picture them doing something really fucking annoying like playing loud music when I am trying to study, which instantly makes me super irritable.

    LIKE JOY WHEN SHE FUCKING COMES IN AND OPENS A WINDOW AND MAKES IT COLD AND THEN SHE STARTS WATCHING DUMB YOUTUBE VIDEOS AND SINGING TO THEM EVEN THOUGH HER SINGING VOICE SOUNDS LIKE SHIT BECAUSE SHE IS TONE-DEAF AND HAS NO RANGE AT ALL AND IT PISSES ME OFF BECAUSE I CAN'T CONCENTRATE WHEN THERE IS MUSIC PLAYING OR ANY KIND OF NON-RHYTHMIC SOURCE OF NOISE LIKE STUPID KIDS LAUGHING AND BUMPING INTO SHIT. GOD DAMMIT EVERYONE STFU.

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    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    If she's stealing my observations, then she's not credible and you shouldn't listen to her, regardless of whether the information in this topic happens to be valid.

    (For the record, I don't really think that Joy isn't credible in terms of socionics, nor do I care that she blatantly stole my observations and passed them off as her own in this topic.)
    Your memory of the conversation fails you. I was the one who brought it up, and you simply agreed with me. The terms endearing, cute, and amusing came out of my mouth. And this is stuff I had observed before that conversation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    Your memory of the conversation fails you. I was the one who brought it up, and you simply agreed with me. The terms endearing, cute, and amusing came out of my mouth. And this is stuff I had observed before that conversation.
    My memory does not fail me.

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    Very well.

    I would like to take this opportunity to officially recognize discojoe's contribution to this topic. I would also like to thank him for acknowledging that I'm Se dominant. While he has been discussing Socionics with me with the premise that I'm SLE for a while now, this is the first ime he's actually made mention of my type as Se dominant on this forum.
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    That said, I don't care about "credit" and my type is irrelevent to this topic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    Very well.

    I would like to take this opportunity to officially recognize discojoe's contribution to this topic. I would also like to thank him for acknowledging that I'm Se dominant. While he has been discussing Socionics with me with the premise that I'm SLE for a while now, this is the first ime he's actually made mention of my type as Se dominant on this forum.
    hilarious formal post. I'm picturing you curtsying now. Or... shaking hands or something.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    Very well.

    I would like to take this opportunity to officially recognize discojoe's contribution to this topic. I would also like to thank him for acknowledging that I'm Se dominant. While he has been discussing Socionics with me with the premise that I'm SLE for a while now, this is the first ime he's actually made mention of my type as Se dominant on this forum.
    where did you see that

    if he took SLE as a premise, Im guessing it was because he either didnt care to examine it, or for the sake of logical debate

    I could be wrong tho, either way you are no SLE.
    <Crispy> what subt doesnt understand is that a healthy reaction to "FUCK YOU" is and not

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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    hilarious formal post. I'm picturing you curtsying now. Or... shaking hands or something.
    *japanese-style bow*
    @thePirate: I have no interest in anything you have to say to or about me, and I don't need your help communicating with discojoe. Kindly fuck off.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    *japanese-style bow*
    @thePirate: I have no interest in anything you have to say to or about me, and I don't need your help communicating with discojoe. Kindly fuck off.
    I respect beta logic, of which I have seen none from you.
    <Crispy> what subt doesnt understand is that a healthy reaction to "FUCK YOU" is and not

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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    hilarious formal post. I'm picturing you curtsying now. Or... shaking hands or something.
    It wasn't hilarious at all. Repair your sense of humor.

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    I thought these were pretty good Joy
    You've touched on some points that are not generally discussed a lot, like the attraction to your duals vulnerability to their 8th function. I'd say the dominant function is what attracts you to your dual, but it's their 8th function that signals a protective instinct which leads to receptiveness on both sides. Without that it's harder to "act your type" since there's always this fear that your incompetence in your 8th function will be used against you (aka PoLR hit)
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    Yep. It's really nice not to have to worry about blunders in this area. They'll let you know if there's a problem, and they'll help you fix it. And for smaller oversights, they'll think it's funny/endearing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marie84 View Post
    You've touched on some points that are not generally discussed a lot, like the attraction to your duals vulnerability to their 8th function. I'd say the dominant function is what attracts you to your dual, but it's their 8th function that signals a protective instinct which leads to receptiveness on both sides. Without that it's harder to "act your type" since there's always this fear that your incompetence in your 8th function will be used against you (aka PoLR hit)
    I like this, especially what's bolded. I do like talking about different functions in varying relationships as well, I'm glad Joy brought it up I found that the demonstrative function is something you actively use, but only when needed. I view interaction at needing a balance of all IEs, and while there's not a lot of value attached to the demonstrative function, it comes out instinctively around those you trust or are intimate with in short bursts. There are times where your relationship will need the perspective of the demonstrative, and you will help your dual when they struggle with it while not making them feel insecure. From personal experience, I don't think a relationship with an XiTe would work without the subtle use and prompting of through an XeFi's demonstrative. It is used in conjunction to support the creative IE's pursuits, and therefore isn't seen as hostile/useless to the dual. So, taking Marie's observation into perspective, dual and illusionary (don't like that term, but oh well) relations need an expression of each other's demonstrative and a mutual tenderness in this area (doesn't have to seem that gushy, I'm going for a more tactile description) creates trust and room for a closer relation. In my life, I can feel this with -creatives, and there is something that I can't quite get from TeSi or SiFe.

    I find that the vulnerable IE is one that feels the most wrong to a type. That is because it actively goes against what you are actively trying to achieve through the creative. The role IE seems to be the one you're more unaware of, maybe akin to an alien sort of feeling? The few TiSe I've encountered I have had more of a "How could you possibly get to that conclusion? What is this foreign type of thinking that seems to be against every method I try?" while with SeTi (and at times, NeTi) I feel like they know better but are going in the complete wrong direction. In my experiences, I do agree with the description, as I have an NeTi best-friend, and sometimes in conversations I feel outright dumb because I cannot understand why or how she could have reached this conclusion when I feel like mine is completely thought out and makes perfect sense (and this is strictly to vs matters, I don't feel this way in normal conversation or debates typically). I don't know if the either of us will ever visit an art museum together ever again because of how frustrated with one another we got, and it was a pure vs battle.

    There is something charming about this vulnerable/demonstrative interaction when it comes to relations, and makes me wonder about how it relates to other interactions. I remember when someone told me that I tend to be attracted to grouches, which isn't necessarily true, but whenever another NeFi comments about related issues with SiTe being "cute," I have to agree, even if it seems like a generalization. I really like this topic, I wonder how this manifests differently in illusionary relations?

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    My experience with illusionary has been that they all find your PoLR endearing 9and you theirs), but the way they "correct" you is with their 1st, 2nd, 7th, and 8th functions. Because you can relate to their use of your/their 1st and 7th functions, it sort of hits you in a way that's easy for you to grasp. Sure, it's better to just get your 5th function fulfilled by your dual, but when they do it, you're pretty much dependent on them to provide that aspect of their perspective. With illusionary, they approach it in a way that you can more readily adopt as your own.
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    Quote Originally Posted by look.to.the.sky View Post
    I really like this topic, I wonder how this manifests differently in illusionary relations?
    I am really glad this topic was brought up as well, thanks Joy! And sky's question above is my million dollar question as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    My experience with illusionary has been that they all find your PoLR endearing 9and you theirs), but the way they "correct" you is with their 1st, 2nd, 7th, and 8th functions. Because you can relate to their use of your/their 1st and 7th functions, it sort of hits you in a way that's easy for you to grasp. Sure, it's better to just get your 5th function fulfilled by your dual, but when they do it, you're pretty much dependent on them to provide that aspect of their perspective. With illusionary, they approach it in a way that you can more readily adopt as your own.
    I'm confused because when you put it that way, it sounds like an illusionary interaction feels better than duality. What makes illusionary inferior to duality?
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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    I'm confused because when you put it that way, it sounds like an illusionary interaction feels better than duality. What makes illusionary inferior to duality?
    Not to undercut Joy's response to this, but there is only a sense of "superiority" in Socionics because of the cohesion of duality, and therefore, everything is seemingly less effective. With everything else equal and barring outside influences, duality will be (over the long term) the easiest and most equalizing relation you can have. This is because of where the IEs are placed that there isn't any butting of IEs. Outside of Socionics and in the real world, the fact of duality > anything else is a mistake since there are too many other factors to influence relationships.

    What is interesting about this conversation concerning duality vs illusionary is that they share the same vulnerable/demonstrative interaction, but the other half is completely different. Your illusionary might be called as such because it seems like in the beginning, the relationship is easier to get into than with a dual (and from personal experience, this rings true. It's easier for me to jump into relationships of any kind with NiTe than SiTe) because you share certain strengths and have half of your valued functions lined up. Like how this topic is going, maybe a connection is developed through the vulnerable/demonstrative perspective, and seeming to have strengths in each other's leading IE as well seems to make for an easier relationship. The problem is long term; eventually need for your suggestive IE's needs will be asked for, and consequently, that's each other's role IE. So while illusionary seems to be better/as good as duality at first, Socionics predicts there will be a long term conflict with the role/suggestive interaction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    My experience with illusionary has been that they all find your PoLR endearing 9and you theirs), but the way they "correct" you is with their 1st, 2nd, 7th, and 8th functions. Because you can relate to their use of your/their 1st and 7th functions, it sort of hits you in a way that's easy for you to grasp. Sure, it's better to just get your 5th function fulfilled by your dual, but when they do it, you're pretty much dependent on them to provide that aspect of their perspective. With illusionary, they approach it in a way that you can more readily adopt as your own.
    Yes, it's easier to get it because id is strong, but accepting functions are in attitude of correction - - etc. - and that can be irritating in longer term.

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    The two intertype relations that are probably warmest and easiest in the beginning are illusionary and activity. Focusing on illusionary...

    Illusionary is easier than duality in the beginning because your PoLR is being covered, your hidden agenda being met, and creative function being appreciated. It can seem perfect. You can identify with their reasoning in a lot of ways. Only as time goes by does it become clear that something's missing... not only are you not getting you dual seeking needs met, but your role is also needed, and you don't need your ignoring function from someone else... And the same applies for them.

    Duality is better not only because all of your needs are being met and your Role being minimized, but also because you share the same values. However, because the dual seeking function is something you're so unaware of and helpless in that you are completely dependent on your dual's jusgement in this area. It takes trust, basically... and trust takes time.
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    HEY LET'S EXPLORE

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    Quote Originally Posted by look.to.the.sky View Post
    Not to undercut Joy's response to this, but there is only a sense of "superiority" in Socionics because of the cohesion of duality, and therefore, everything is seemingly less effective. With everything else equal and barring outside influences, duality will be (over the long term) the easiest and most equalizing relation you can have. This is because of where the IEs are placed that there isn't any butting of IEs. Outside of Socionics and in the real world, the fact of duality > anything else is a mistake since there are too many other factors to influence relationships.

    What is interesting about this conversation concerning duality vs illusionary is that they share the same vulnerable/demonstrative interaction, but the other half is completely different. Your illusionary might be called as such because it seems like in the beginning, the relationship is easier to get into than with a dual (and from personal experience, this rings true. It's easier for me to jump into relationships of any kind with NiTe than SiTe) because you share certain strengths and have half of your valued functions lined up. Like how this topic is going, maybe a connection is developed through the vulnerable/demonstrative perspective, and seeming to have strengths in each other's leading IE as well seems to make for an easier relationship. The problem is long term; eventually need for your suggestive IE's needs will be asked for, and consequently, that's each other's role IE. So while illusionary seems to be better/as good as duality at first, Socionics predicts there will be a long term conflict with the role/suggestive interaction.
    Thanks to both you and Joy for explaining. . .i find these phenomena so fascinating!

    To put the issue to rest re: my perspective on the awesomeness of duality though. I know a lot of newbies here regard duality as this idealized magical state of flawless interactions. I discovered socionics only because I experienced duality. That experience was by FAR not flawless. It was actually quite painful at times, and continues to be. And you're dealing with a human being who most certainly has faults.

    The CORE of the matter though, is that duality IS awesome. Not because it's flawless, not because it's anything ideal or superhumanly perfect. Even when there is no mutual attraction and/or things dont work out in a friendship or romantic sense for whatever outside influence, the fact is that if you get close enough to experience the duality and to recognize this person as your dual, you are able to feel it's a very unique interaction--of comfort, relief, and safety is the best way I can put it but does not quite capture the entire effect.

    Everything Aushra described on duality is true. Now people sometimes tend to overextrapolate those things into some unattainable ideal, and read further into them than they should, but that's a whole other issue. I also think that people who tend to do this are people who haven't experienced duality yet and just have a concept of it in their minds. I dont think Aushra exaggerated or idealized duality at all. She just described the socionics meat of it.

    That said, i think i would be happy with an activity partner. NOT illusionary. I was once attracted to my illusionary (an ILI I worked with). He was not a very physically attractive guy, but I loved the Te and the lack of Se from him. However, I did experience a lot of Si-associated hurts from him, that I remember to this day (this was something like 3-4 years ago). For example, on numerous occasions he would just get food for himself or forget about meals period, and not even care about whether I was hungry (often i was just too busy to get food and he was in charge of me, so yes I would be bitter about it). I found that incredibly egotistical and selfish of him, especially when he would get food and sit down and eat it in front of me while I was ravenously hungry. but now I realize that it was simply because Si was his POLR. he was oblivious my need for Si. After a while i learned that I have to make sure i get food, so I would order food, and would make sure to include him, but he never seemed to value that. In fact I felt like almost like he looked down upon the importance i was attaching to getting food.

    Another example was when we would be working a 30 hour shift, he would go to bed and get sleep while I was slaving away dealing with a million problems, not even offering to help me out and not really seeming to care whether I got any sleep. At one point the fact came up and he was surprised to hear that I didn't get any sleep, and didn't really seem to care too much.

    In retrospect I do think he sort of would have liked to see more Se coming from me in general, even just as coworkers, not even for attraction purposes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post

    Illusionary is easier than duality in the beginning because your PoLR is being covered, your hidden agenda being met, and creative function being appreciated.
    All this applies to dual relations as well. Both the dual and the illusionary will have your PoLR function in the 8th position so for them, even though its unvalued, its a strong function so they can effectively cover it for you. For both the illusionary and the dual, your hidden agenda function is their creative function, so no problems in getting your hidden agenda met. Also, your creative function is the hidden agenda for both illusionary and dual, so they will appreciate it.

    This fails to explain why illusionary is easier than duality in the beginning.
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