What would happen

[discojoe]

If, instead of implementing Alpha's ideas, Beta tried implementing Gamma's?

I have no idea what I'm even talking about; it just seemed like an interesting notion, thinking about how much I enjoy the Gamma-centric economic perspectives of people like Friedman (ILI), Sowell (LIE), and Peter Schiff (LIE). I actually piss off a lot of Beta people when I talk about it, but it seems interesting that I would take to Gamma ideology instead of Alpha.

[olduser]

hm. perhaps you are SLE rather than LSI and thus your benefactor/supervisor is within gamma(and the other gamma relationship is at least complimentary, which is why you like their ideas, but in reality your benefactor would probably not like the way you expressed them) , and your supervisee is in alpha and thus in conflict. Sometimes I find this an interesting perspective when looking at people and quadra relationships.

Or another possibility may be that political/economic ideology isn't as strongly tied to quadra and type as people have discussed it to be.

[marooned]

Or another possibility may be that political/economic ideology isn't as strongly tied to quadra and type as people have discussed it to be.

that's where I place my wayward vote.

[xerx]

If, instead of implementing Alpha's ideas, Beta tried implementing Gamma's?

I have no idea what I'm even talking about; it just seemed like an interesting notion, thinking about how much I enjoy the Gamma-centric economic perspectives of people like Friedman (ILI), Sowell (LIE), and Peter Schiff (LIE). I actually piss off a lot of Beta people when I talk about it, but it seems interesting that I would take to Gamma ideology instead of Alpha.

Reaganomics?

And what makes you think Alphas are all socialists? Alphas systematized both capitalism and socialism. We pretty much wrote the book on economics.

[silverchris9]

Reaganomics, Keynsian economics, supply-side economics...

I don't think this is really a type-related thing. Of course there have been instances in which gammas have thought of an idea and betas have carried it out. That has nothing to do with type. Quadra progression is a more generalized historical thing.

[discojoe]

hm. perhaps you are SLE rather than LSI and thus your benefactor/supervisor is within gamma(and the other gamma relationship is at least complimentary, which is why you like their ideas, but in reality your benefactor would probably not like the way you expressed them) , and your supervisee is in alpha and thus in conflict. Sometimes I find this an interesting perspective when looking at people and quadra relationships.

The simplest response I have to the idea that I am SLE is that I am very insecure about whether or not I am behaving unethically. I hate the idea of someone like Diana scolding me; and I think the perception of one's supervisor is more ambivalent, since the PoLR is something you genuinely do not care about.

Or another possibility may be that political/economic ideology isn't as strongly tied to quadra and type as people have discussed it to be.

I don't think quadra means anything in terms of an individual's political views, but I do think that quadra values as a whole tend to shift society in different political directions.

Reaganomics?

And what makes you think Alphas are all socialists? Alphas systematized both capitalism and socialism. We pretty much wrote the book on economics.

I have read The Wealth of Nations, and I'm pretty sure that Adam Smith was LIE.

Reaganomics, Keynsian economics, supply-side economics...

I don't think this is really a type-related thing. Of course there have been instances in which gammas have thought of an idea and betas have carried it out. That has nothing to do with type. Quadra progression is a more generalized historical thing.

I wonder if there is sometimes an intraloop, where, say, Alpha ideas pass on to Beta, then on to Gamma, but instead of going to Delta, they are refined and sent back to Beta for reimplementation.

So in essence, to use the United States as an example, Alpha puts together Enlightenment ideas which are used to create the Constitution (which is an intermingling of all of the quadras, I think). But because the Constitution does not properly keep the federal government out of everyone's lives, Beta is able to espouse these American ideals in a shortsighted manner that erodes civil liberties.

Gamma, which wants to "clean up Beta's mess," realizes that the only way to solve this problem is through extreme measures, given the amount of corruption and degeneracy in our political institutions.

However, this approach necessitates making hard decisions that will temporarily have adverse effects on Delta-valued aspects of life, such as health care and jobs. So instead of patching up the flawed system and sending it down to Delta, Gamma loops the package back to Beta so that it can be reimplemented; in essence, it amends Alpha's Constitution before Delta can freeze everything into place.

While reading Thomas Sowell, one thing I noticed is that he seems to almost be speaking directly to Betas in his explanations about economics and social issues. He addresses the Beta misconceptions (e.g., social "justice" and "fairness" and shortsighted assumptions about the purpose of government) and he reorients them.

For example, when Betas loudly cry for using the government to solve some social problem, he calmly explains the Beta position, then he explains why their objective will only make things worse, and why they would be better off siding with him. He doesn't try to smash you to pieces, he tries to redirect your energy so that your efforts will have a better outcome. Meanwhile, Delta is saying that people like Sowell lack compassion and want to take away people's jobs and ruin their livelihood.

Of course, this is all wildly speculative and imperfect, but it is an interesting idea.

[MatthewZ]

Isn't there some theory about having the same valued irrational elements leads to similar worldviews?

[FDG]

Actually I know some ENFjs that are fervent (too fervent, from my perspective - economics isn't something you should be emotional about) supporters of self-regulating-market / libertarian positions. I gather it's got a lot to do with...how much you have studied those subjects. It's really hard not to be a free-marketer when you see how the govt, on the long run, can easily skew economic activity towards its dead-end.

[Gilly]

I don't think Beta necessarily so much impliments Alpha's ideas as they are simply the consequence of Alpha's approach: they see the impracticality and lack of self-sustainability of Alpha's quasi-Castalian mentality, and are the next step in progression of distillation and hardening for action and real-world implimentation. Beta should, in theory, always be working towards Gamma, placing more emphasis on the "necessary evil," if you will, of Te/Fi implimentation, through Se/Ni revelations of necessity and relevance and subsequent action, while maintaining a core Fe/Ti axis perspective in terms of pointing out broad-scope social flaws and attempting to draw support for necessary action in changing dominant ideologies.

hm. perhaps you are SLE rather than LSI and thus your benefactor/supervisor is within gamma(and the other gamma relationship is at least complimentary, which is why you like their ideas, but in reality your benefactor would probably not like the way you expressed them) , and your supervisee is in alpha and thus in conflict. Sometimes I find this an interesting perspective when looking at people and quadra relationships.

Or another possibility may be that political/economic ideology isn't as strongly tied to quadra and type as people have discussed it to be.

He's Se subtype of LSI, which is in the peak Se/Ni axis, of Beta, and thus closer to Gamma than Alpha. And no, it's not; economics is one area where right and wrong are pretty black and white; the results speak for themselves.

[Ezra]

If, instead of implementing Alpha's ideas, Beta tried implementing Gamma's?

I have no idea what I'm even talking about; it just seemed like an interesting notion, thinking about how much I enjoy the Gamma-centric economic perspectives of people like Friedman (ILI), Sowell (LIE), and Peter Schiff (LIE). I actually piss off a lot of Beta people when I talk about it, but it seems interesting that I would take to Gamma ideology instead of Alpha.

Agreed. Jesus Christ, why implement what doesn't work. Alphas know fuck all, Gamma is where it's at. You want something to work, who you gonna call? Alpha? No. Alphas know how to party. Gammas know how to work shit. And we're the ones who get shit done. Deltas... put them in the call centres and in middle management. They will serve the party well.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[discojoe]

I'm ever fascinated by the fact that no one notes that discojoe is an SEE. From Ti-PoLR to Ti-Base is a long way to go .

You're retarded.

[MatthewZ]

My favorite economists are Gamma NTs, so I can't blame anyone for incorporating those ideas. Of course, so are some of my least favorites.

I'm in favor of incorporation of ideas I agree with and not in favor of ideas I don't agree with. On the fundamental level, I don't care what quadra the best solution comes from.

[Linas]

my two unnecesarry cents: economic is the bitch of life, in the first place. but good economic system is something we should all seek, and try to contribute to, even a little.

[Ezra]

my two unnecesarry cents: economic is the bitch of life, in the first place. but good economic system is something we should all seek, and try to contribute to, even a little.

Are you a communist?

[Gilly]

You're retarded.

You should read my post for an answer
instead of throwing goblets at the court jester.

[Linas]

Are you a communist?

Sort of, with tendencies to anarchy, romance, etc.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[somavision]

"The king effectively rules, the jester tells the truth."

I tell the truth objectively, who are you?

[discojoe]

I don't think Beta necessarily so much impliments Alpha's ideas as they are simply the consequence of Alpha's approach: they see the impracticality and lack of self-sustainability of Alpha's quasi-Castalian mentality, and are the next step in progression of distillation and hardening for action and real-world implimentation. Beta should, in theory, always be working towards Gamma, placing more emphasis on the "necessary evil," if you will, of Te/Fi implimentation, through Se/Ni revelations of necessity and relevance and subsequent action, while maintaining a core Fe/Ti axis perspective in terms of pointing out broad-scope social flaws and attempting to draw support for necessary action in changing dominant ideologies.

But do you think that sometimes Beta Fe/Ti is misdirected and can be resorted by Gamma and sent back to Beta?

It seems like Thomas Sowell is almost talking to Betas, saying, "It doesn't make sense to implement something that doesn't work. Here's what you should be doing, now start over."

It's like he's unconsciously worried about making a haphazard attempt at fixing something that is fundamentally broken and will be made permanent by Delta.

I know that sounds like reaching, but it's just conjecture anyway, so whatever.

[xerx]

The system is designed to shift to gamma anyway. Gammas come, rest control from the betas and implement their own reforms. If you game the system to their advantage, they'll just take power more quickly away from you.

Gulenko agrees.

+Se = durability and resistance. Defense of themselves and their position. Power is not easy to acquire, as they must face against Beta's Se. But once it is seized, they manage to hold on in spite of all attempts to restore the previous balance. They respect protection, the ability to rebuff and not to allow power out of arm's reach.

[Edit: And I hope people realize the irony of saying alphas know "fuck all" using a sociological theory invented by an alpha.]

[Aiss]

But do you think that sometimes Beta Fe/Ti is misdirected and can be resorted by Gamma and sent back to Beta?

It seems like Thomas Sowell is almost talking to Betas, saying, "It doesn't make sense to implement something that doesn't work. Here's what you should be doing, now start over."

It's like he's unconsciously worried about making a haphazard attempt at fixing something that is fundamentally broken and will be made permanent by Delta.

I know that sounds like reaching, but it's just conjecture anyway, so whatever.

I've always seen Betas more as destroying the previous order so the new one can be created rather than planning or something - "rebellious teenager" with often a radical viewpoint - this enables them to fight against something, but at the same time makes it impossible to replace it, because radicalism (+Ti) tends to get out of hand. Once it happens, Gamma +Se takes over.

Alpha sees potential for change, Beta deconstructs the old thing, Gamma constructs new thing, Delta guards it. <- this sort of thing.