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Thread: Reducing People to Intentions

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    Default Reducing People to Intentions

    I'm wondering, is this an Ni-ego/IEI thing, or just a general "smart/insightful people" thing? I've noticed that in a lot of arguments on the forum, but also in suspected Ni-egos that I've met, Ni-egos tend to ignore actions, character, and argument in favor of intention. For example, during a party a few days ago, I had a friend who sort of took charge of the party, helped people who had had too much to drink or had relationship/hook-up drama, etc. But another friend, who is clearly beta, and who I suspect is a badass-ish IEI or EIE, commented that he wasn't really being helpful so much as "playing the hero." That is, because his intention wasn't totally pure and selfless, friend #2 sort of downplayed the effect of what friend #1 was doing. Now, I understand the motive for this kind of thing; maybe friend #1 was being kind of annoying, kind of trying to be the savior of the party, but nevertheless I find this fairly typical of the way in which Ni egos (myself included), will tend to emphasize intentions/psychology/etc., over other factors when evaluating behavior, especially behavior we're opposed to. So, what do you think? Ni-related, or just smarts-related?
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

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    It could be Ni ego. At least it's something my EIE and LIE parents do. But they aren't always right, and therefore it kind of drives me crazy. You can't assume you know what other people are intending. You can guess, but no, it isn't about being smart, it's about making assumptions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    I'm wondering, is this an Ni-ego/IEI thing, or just a general "smart/insightful people" thing?
    I'm not sure if it's -ego related but, maybe it is because in my experience, I've had -egos suspicious about other's intentions (Actually, only SiTe and TeSi, so this might be an NiFe and FeNi thing) since they can't figure them out very easily. But either way, I found it interesting that you relate it to "smarts." I don't think it at all relates to intelligence, I think in moderation with observing other qualities, such as actions, character, and words, is actually more of the smarts bit, but doesn't necessarily do with education. In the end, that person diminished the effect of what your first friend was doing because to THEM it seemed like they were playing hero, and even if they did have some self-satisfaction from it, who cares? What they did was genuinely nice and helpful, and if you were one of those people who needed a little lift-up, you would have been appreciative. I think it's disturbing that someone's self-verified psychoanalysis trumps every other aspect of a person. What would be the actual intelligent thing to do is to combine that with their actions and character, and see what it all amounts to. In the end, does it matter whether they were playing hero or not? Weren't people actually benefiting from what that friend was doing? Now if this friend was being overall negative, and you had to solve the problem, sure, I could understand this perspective a little more. But it seems like there was no real reason to chastise them.
    Last edited by Mattie; 05-06-2010 at 03:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    I'm wondering, is this an Ni-ego/IEI thing, or just a general "smart/insightful people" thing? I've noticed that in a lot of arguments on the forum, but also in suspected Ni-egos that I've met, Ni-egos tend to ignore actions, character, and argument in favor of intention. For example, during a party a few days ago, I had a friend who sort of took charge of the party, helped people who had had too much to drink or had relationship/hook-up drama, etc. But another friend, who is clearly beta, and who I suspect is a badass-ish IEI or EIE, commented that he wasn't really being helpful so much as "playing the hero." That is, because his intention wasn't totally pure and selfless, friend #2 sort of downplayed the effect of what friend #1 was doing. Now, I understand the motive for this kind of thing; maybe friend #1 was being kind of annoying, kind of trying to be the savior of the party, but nevertheless I find this fairly typical of the way in which Ni egos (myself included), will tend to emphasize intentions/psychology/etc., over other factors when evaluating behavior, especially behavior we're opposed to. So, what do you think? Ni-related, or just smarts-related?
    I tend to view people's actions as selfish in general, more or less consciously, but always motivated by gain (whether it's on the instinctual level of species' survival, seeking immediate reward impulsively or clear forwarding of personal interest).

    I realize it's not always applicable, and there are some people I believe are genuinely altruistic at times. I also avoid speaking of this perception to them or in their presence.

    There's always a possibility that since we Ni people always consider long-term effect, including how it would influence us and cost/benefit analysis, we judge others by ourselves...

    Quote Originally Posted by Diana View Post
    They also make up intentions that have nothing at all to do with the person in question to justify their attitudes towards them. That's not "insight" it's plain dishonesty and purposeful blindness. Nothing against you Chris, but that's something that really annoys me, people inventing motives for others and claiming it's some great "insight" when it's just them being a moron for their own purposes.
    I think you're misinterpreting "Ni insight" here. It's not "insight" in people's minds, feelings or genuine intentions, but "insight" as in seeing implicit consequences of their actions, which it's hard to believe them oblivious to - thus the supposition that they are as aware of potential benefit and it's their motive.

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    Yes I think part of maturity is learning not to assume anything about other people's intentions and to give people the benefit of the doubt. I have been guilty about thinking I "know" something about why people are doing this or that and occasionally I've been wrong. So I try not to do that in a negative way, even when I might be prone to suspect something. Sometimes I do the opposite now and assume they have good intentions. I do think it's natural for Ni types to immediately go into "where is this coming from and what does it mean" mode.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    I find that Beta NFs are often uncannily accurate in their observations regarding people though - even if they know relatively little about the person, so I think they're often making very educated guesses.
    "Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."

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    Quote Originally Posted by look.to.the.sky View Post
    But either way, I found it interesting that you relate it to "smarts." I don't think it at all relates to intelligence, I think in moderation with observing other qualities, such as actions, character, and words, is actually more of the smarts bit, but doesn't necessarily do with education. In the end, that person diminished the effect of what your first friend was doing because to THEM it seemed like they were playing hero, and even if they did have some self-satisfaction from it, who cares? What they did was genuinely nice and helpful, and if you were one of those people who needed a little lift-up, you would have been appreciative. I think it's disturbing that someone's self-verified psychoanalysis trumps every other aspect of a person. What would be the actual intelligent thing to do is to combine that with their actions and character, and see what it all amounts to. In the end, does it matter whether they were playing hero or not? Weren't people actually benefiting from what that friend was doing? Now if this friend was being overall negative, and you had to solve the problem, sure, I could understand this perspective a little more. But it seems like there was no real reason to chastise them.
    I think it does matter whether they were 'playing hero or not' .. makes the difference between an idiot and a genuine person. Looking simply at whether a person's actions is benefiting people seems a cold approach and would make for a cold, fake society. And evaluating every aspect of a person's character at a party on the spur of the moment is hardly feasible.. therefore not the intelligent thing to do - nor is it fun. :-p You're also being way too subjective re your definition of intelligence.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubicon View Post
    I find that Beta NFs are often uncannily accurate in their observations regarding people though - even if they know relatively little about the person, so I think they're often making very educated guesses.
    Truth. And dude was kind of playing a hero. And... I think it does represent a kind of intelligence to accurately guess people's motivations. I mean, that's basically what Shakespeare did--although he did it on a much grander scale--and he was hyper-intelligent. And it's not really "making it up"--those elements are definitely there in people's psyches, there is usually a "gain" related motivator, as Aiss said, and when it's not obvious, it's often psychological, like, what does this do for my self-image, related. So I have to defend the process a little. That said, what redbaron said is totally true. I often find myself having a strong opinion about something, but reminding myself that I don't guess right 100% of the time, and me remembering that there's a good chance that I'm wrong has saved my butt more than once, when I could have said something really harsh and been wrong. But then again, I've also held back on guesses that were right.

    But nice to know that people agree that it is generally an Ni-related thing. Certainly I think it has to do with the interactions of abstract forces over time, and shows how Ni is time-related, but not solely concerned with time. That is, the process of motivation is something that inherently unfolds in time, something that is inherently dialectical (although there's more than two forces at work, but I think you all get my point), but guessing people's motivations has more to do with observing a present event and working backwards than guessing a future outcome.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    Truth. And dude was kind of playing a hero. And... I think it does represent a kind of intelligence to accurately guess people's motivations. I mean, that's basically what Shakespeare did--although he did it on a much grander scale--and he was hyper-intelligent. And it's not really "making it up"--those elements are definitely there in people's psyches, there is usually a "gain" related motivator, as Aiss said, and when it's not obvious, it's often psychological, like, what does this do for my self-image, related.
    Yeah.. An EII guy made an observation that I was "a good person" at a party once.. because I was helping out with the dishes. lol He said it seriously, like he'd just made an accurate assessment of my character. I found it mildly annoying/amusing, because I was actually just helping out to escape the boring chitchat in the living room. haha I found it annoying that he'd label helping out with the dishes as a good act in itself, no matter what the intention. And also that he probably saw a female in a kitchen as a good thing it itself.. but perhaps I'm assuming too much about his thought processes now. :-p
    "Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubicon View Post
    Yeah.. An EII guy made an observation that I was "a good person" at a party once.. because I was helping out with the dishes. lol He said it seriously, like he'd just made an accurate assessment of my character. I found it mildly annoying/amusing, because I was actually just helping out to escape the boring chitchat in the living room. haha I found it annoying that he'd label helping out with the dishes as a good act in itself, no matter what the intention. And also that he probably saw a female in a kitchen as a good thing it itself.. but perhaps I'm assuming too much about his thought processes now. :-p
    Huh. I like that. It really pinpoints what annoys me about those sorts of compliments. It's like, you're not really complimenting anything that matters. You're just complimenting the sort of boring, irrelevant stuff. I mean, that's OK, if the intent/internal stuff lines up with the action/external stuff, but if not, it's kind of like, don't mention it... no, really, don't mention it.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

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    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    Huh. I like that. It really pinpoints what annoys me about those sorts of compliments. It's like, you're not really complimenting anything that matters. You're just complimenting the sort of boring, irrelevant stuff. I mean, that's OK, if the intent/internal stuff lines up with the action/external stuff, but if not, it's kind of like, don't mention it... no, really, don't mention it.
    exactly
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubicon View Post
    I think it does matter whether they were 'playing hero or not' .. makes the difference between an idiot and a genuine person. Looking simply at whether a person's actions is benefiting people seems a cold approach and would make for a cold, fake society. And evaluating every aspect of a person's character at a party on the spur of the moment is hardly feasible.. therefore not the intelligent thing to do - nor is it fun. :-p You're also being way too subjective re your definition of intelligence.
    I think what is more cold and fake is thinking you can grasp a person on the spot and pass judgment I mean, I see value in it, I'm not going to soapbox on how this sort of insight is inferior or something. I don't don't agree with this being tied to intelligence, because that's saying is inherently intelligent, and, well, there's a lot to argue that. The intelligence comes in the understanding and application of the information you are observing, not what you observe per se. You can have a very unique but unintelligent observation.

    But as I think about it, I think this is an behavior, mostly looking at some comparisons with -egos. I was questioning it at first because I believe myself to have this ability, but as this discussion shows, I don't necessarily put as much weight into it as others. Which would fit, for convenience's sake.

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    Yes, we have strong Ni but dont' value it. And there's a relationship between the two functions.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by look.to.the.sky View Post
    I think what is more cold and fake is thinking you can grasp a person on the spot and pass judgment I mean, I see value in it, I'm not going to soapbox on how this sort of insight is inferior or something. I don't don't agree with this being tied to intelligence, because that's saying is inherently intelligent, and, well, there's a lot to argue that. The intelligence comes in the understanding and application of the information you are observing, not what you observe per se. You can have a very unique but unintelligent observation.

    But as I think about it, I think this is an behavior, mostly looking at some comparisons with -egos. I was questioning it at first because I believe myself to have this ability, but as this discussion shows, I don't necessarily put as much weight into it as others. Which would fit, for convenience's sake.
    I question bringing intelligence into this discussion, as most people consider, unless confronted with undeniable evidence, their way of thinking to be superior. This is probably one of the reasons neither conflict nor supervision tend to be good relations, as one's base function is what they perceive as "right", and the other lacks it, can be oblivious to it, is often unable to grasp the "obvious" - therefore might be seen as deficient, unless a person knows better than to judge others by what they're good at themselves, and considers their strengths as well. What's described in this thread is exactly focused on understanding and application, not just observation of intentions, because such thing doesn't happen, at least not with alone. Yet it doesn't necessarily make it intelligence-related.

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    Quote Originally Posted by look.to.the.sky View Post
    I think what is more cold and fake is thinking you can grasp a person on the spot and pass judgment
    You say that the ability seems to be inherent in Ni people, so that statement doesn't seem to make much sense. If they can grasp a person on the spot, then it'd be odd if they didn't first think they can. :-p And how is an innate judgment something fake?
    Quote Originally Posted by look.to.the.sky View Post
    I mean, I see value in it, I'm not going to soapbox on how this sort of insight is inferior or something. I don't don't agree with this being tied to intelligence, because that's saying is inherently intelligent, and, well, there's a lot to argue that. The intelligence comes in the understanding and application of the information you are observing, not what you observe per se. You can have a very unique but unintelligent observation.
    I don't see how grasping a person on the spot (assuming it's correct) is much different to grasping a logic puzzle on the spot ... and if one is considered proof of intelligence, why not the other?
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    I think the OP is related to both Ni and Fe, but that the significance of Fe in this is huge. I see calling people out on what are seen to be their "underlying motives" (as in the example in the OP) as largely Fe related.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I think the OP is related to both Ni and Fe, but that the significance of Fe in this is huge. I see calling people out on what are seen to be their "underlying motives" (as in the example in the OP) as largely Fe related.
    yes. I think it's sometimes hard to isolate functions in the behavior of any type without looking at what the function is blocked with.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    yes. I think it's sometimes hard to isolate functions in the behavior of any type without looking at what the function is blocked with.
    Yeah, I wouldn't even say reducing people to intentions is Ni and Fe. But I would say that Chris's example was strongly Fe related simply because the intention was defined as a role (i.e. "the hero", "the intellectual", "the funny guy" etc.).

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    This surprises me quite a bit, actually. I tend to reduce people to intentions as well, so to say that it is mostly a Ni+Fe realm seems untrue.

    But to me, action is also important.

    Actions and intentions can be evaluated separately.

    If I may use Rubicon's example: if I observe Rubicon doing the dishes, when nobody else is, I would say she was "good person" due to her actions, regardless of her intention. One should take into account the multitude of actions she could have chosen just to avoid contact with the people in the room, many which involve not being of any help at all. Essentially, I evaluate helping someone as "objectively" good.

    After such a comment, if she were to then explain to me that her intentions were not so good, I would simply state that at least the course of action she chose is "noble", even though she may be "subjectively not good".

    But in order to evaluate a person's character holistically, both the subjective and objective must be taken into consideration. But one can always comment on instances, just as the aforementioned EII did.
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    I don't judge the "quality" (good or bad) of an individual by the actions (washing dishes) they take. I could care less if anyone washed the dishes, that to me, does not make a "good" person. I find admirable the noble actions of an individual in evaluating the quality of them being good or bad. These noble actions include helping many, not washing dishes.

    Objects are not important to me; people are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Diana View Post
    They also make up intentions that have nothing at all to do with the person in question to justify their attitudes towards them. That's not "insight" it's plain dishonesty and purposeful blindness. Nothing against you Chris, but that's something that really annoys me, people inventing motives for others and claiming it's some great "insight" when it's just them being a moron for their own purposes.
    I agree here.
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 05-06-2010 at 11:01 PM.

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    An IEE believes that everything around them signals intent. (particularly the creative subtype)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    I question bringing intelligence into this discussion, as most people consider, unless confronted with undeniable evidence, their way of thinking to be superior.
    That was my argument, I was saying I didn't think this was smarts/intelligence related, in response to the OP's question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rubicon View Post
    You say that the ability seems to be inherent in Ni people, so that statement doesn't seem to make much sense. If they can grasp a person on the spot, then it'd be odd if they didn't first think they can. :-p And how is an innate judgment something fake?I don't see how grasping a person on the spot (assuming it's correct) is much different to grasping a logic puzzle on the spot ... and if one is considered proof of intelligence, why not the other?
    Intelligence is fishy because that's where you get into what is intelligence, and different types of intelligences. This topic's example is blocked with (as Loki pointed out and I agree with), and the overall application of this does follow under "emotional intelligence," if you will, but it's a part of something bigger. You can't relate only certain IEs to intelligences because they are all just the observation of information, as well as the other points Aiss makes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I think the OP is related to both Ni and Fe, but that the significance of Fe in this is huge. I see calling people out on what are seen to be their "underlying motives" (as in the example in the OP) as largely Fe related.
    Agreed with for the most part, I don't really see this behavior too much in blocked with , there are similarities, but the evaluations it makes it too far from a focus.

    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    An IEE believes that everything around them signals intent. (particularly the creative subtype)
    Sorta, I would say, personally, that I have an instinctive part of my brain that tries to predict intent, but I never hold it to a final conclusion. I come to a decision but always have the door open so to speak.

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    Quote Originally Posted by look.to.the.sky View Post
    Sorta, I would say, personally, that I have an instinctive part of my brain that tries to predict intent, but I never hold it to a final conclusion. I come to a decision but always have the door open so to speak.
    Would you say that you pick up on suggestions of intent that are familiar, but you aren't sure if the context is lined up as you think it is?

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    Quote Originally Posted by look.to.the.sky View Post
    Agreed with for the most part, I don't really see this behavior too much in blocked with , there are similarities, but the evaluations it makes it too far from a focus.
    That's because we talk to people less.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    Would you say that you pick up on suggestions of intent that are familiar, but you aren't sure if the context is lined up as you think it is?
    No, I usually don't have doubts in my mind about it, I'm usually sure enough about the signals that I get, but I know that there's room for error, surprising behavior, and my own expectations that may alter my evaluations. Of course, I'm not constantly thinking this in my mind obviously, but something in the back of my brain is like "Hmm, well didn't that seem like this... Oh, yeah, definitely, that's what that is, but let's just make sure..." Then after I leave, think about it more, then wait for more input. It's not like I'm unsure, but I don't want to make the wrong move. But I'll let my actions be influenced enough and see if the reception works out.

    ETA:
    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    That's because we talk to people less.
    I think it just has to do with what sort of information is observed under than
    Last edited by Mattie; 05-07-2010 at 12:34 AM.

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    I dunno - I think when people attempt to read someone's intentions, they usually do it in light of what they would do in a similar situation. Sometimes it says far more about them than it does about the person they're supposedly "reading." Some people read malintent and selfishness into every person and situation they encounter.

    As for silverchris's story, the friend could be a douchebag, or the person commenting could just be a bitter asshole.

    I don't think that every action is motivated by personal interest. There are a whole lot of times that I've just helped someone because they needed help. What harm does it do me to give somebody a ride if they're stranded after a party? Or help a coworker if he's facing an all-nighter at the office? Jesus.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I think the OP is related to both Ni and Fe, but that the significance of Fe in this is huge. I see calling people out on what are seen to be their "underlying motives" (as in the example in the OP) as largely Fe related.
    Definitely, this is more than . ESEs and SEIs do this a lot too, in particular characterizing actions as an expression of someone's motivations. Like "so and so just did that because ..." As an LII I am very conservative about judging what people's motivations are.

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    Motives are always a blind spot for me. They make me nervous because I can't see them clearly.

    Yeah it would seem that this is EII's forte, with particular emphasis on the D.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aixelsyd View Post
    By some aspect of definition, Ni is about pulling information and filling it in where information is missing, based on what information that has been gathered.
    I have never seen this definition before, it sounds overly general. Any "internal" information element does this to some extent. Intentions are usually in the area of people, so ethics is the main culprit. Understanding what's going through a person's head in any given moment is , internal dynamics of objects.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aixelsyd View Post
    Introverted intuition - Wikisocion

    I am using that idea because I believe it is true and am elaborating on ways it can and does sometimes manifest.
    If you do this yourself, perhaps you are IEI and not ILI?

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    Quote Originally Posted by aixelsyd View Post
    Introverted intuition - Wikisocion

    I am using that idea because I believe it is true and am elaborating on ways it can and does sometimes manifest.

    And I disagree about Fe. Fe is understanding what is going on by such things as expression, tone, etc. How it practically manifests is by assessing facial expression, vocal intonation, and external cues which give off data which indicates one's present emotional state.
    ok, I agree but it's about more than that. Fe is used to understand how internal, frequently changing (dynamic) qualities of a person or thing (object) manifest through external signals: actions, expressions, etc. This includes emotions but lots of other stuff too.

    You don't need to be adept at Fe to read someone's intentions which can be indicated by concrete actions which do not necessarily indicate Fe.
    I am speaking from personal experience. ILIs rarely ever say things like "oh, he's just saying that because he's still pissed off about X", but SEIs do a lot. Usually the kind of thing we're talking about here involves some kind of judgement of a person's emotional state. If it doesn't then it might even be related to (what a person is trying to get out of a situation).

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    The more generalized I move this in my mind, the more I can say that the info from any of the eight IEs is valuable in discerning people's intentions.

    The example in the OP however seems to take the form of "so and so is purposefully coming across X way but it's for the sake of appearing as X and what he's really up to is Y, and I see through this charade and want to expose his act." It's a focus on someone coming across a certain way, assuming an intentionality to it of a role (i.e. "playing the hero") and this role/appearance is felt to not be genuine as to his real intentions (I suspect that Fe info is what gives this feeling that it's not genuine). I think that Fe is sensitive to these readings of appearances even if Ni is doing some of the assigning of underlying motives as to what someone is "really" up to. Fe notices how one is coming across with such acuity that it concerns itself with this in general (and it notices very subtle things in how people are acting that can tell it that something is off, and when paired with the delving powers of Ni this can manifest as total certainty as to what others are really up to). Coming across in a way one isn't and putting forth a disingenuous act seems to be a cardinal sin in Beta (as Fe can also help one in putting forth a convincing act and getting others to believe it is real, I can see why those with Fe in the ego would also be highly sensitive to this kind of deception). Fe seems to be very concerned in the realm of appearances and reading between the lines. And I kind of feel that Fi/Te valuers might find this offensive (i.e. assuming intentions and then calling people on them in a way that seems accusatory while dismissing that there isn't really any outward evidence in things they actually said or did that justifies the inconsiderateness of calling one's motives into question as though they are of bad character).

    However as the focus of the OP was on jumping to root of the matter behind what one is doing in general and noticing intentions behind actions rather than simply the actions at face value, I do see Ni as probably very relevant to this. I don't know how to make a case though that it would be more relevant to this than other IEs. I think that what Ni can probably do is that when one asks themselves why someone is doing something, answers will fly into the opening and fill up the space (well they'll actually just fly in anyway as with all of the pattern data already there, answers will simply come). But wouldn't Ne do that too? I could probably rule out Se in this as I think Se would be more focused on the actions themselves and some kind of outward evaluation. I guess in short I would say that Fe, Fi, Ne and Ni most jump to (possible) intentions beneath actions over actions themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by look.to.the.sky View Post
    Agreed with for the most part, I don't really see this behavior too much in blocked with , there are similarities, but the evaluations it makes it too far from a focus.
    I think the difference is that, very generally speaking, while Beta NFs evaluate people's intentions, Gamma NTs evaluate people's intelligence. For example:

    Beta NF: "You claim to be altruistically helping that person, but surely you must realize (using Ni) that this action will benefit you, so therefore you must be lying and acting selfishly."

    Gamma NT: "You claim to be intelligent, working on that project, but any intelligent person like me would realize (using Ni) that your actions will have negative practical consequences, therefore you must be stupid and incompetant."

    Of course there would be some overlap between the two, but I think this is the general focus of the two groups.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Intention is Fi. It is signaled by which options are partaken of given a selection of choices. The option selected reflects, theoretically, a desire to partake of potentials enabled by the selection in the future. This in turn can signal "drive".

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    Quote Originally Posted by look.to.the.sky View Post
    No, I usually don't have doubts in my mind about it, I'm usually sure enough about the signals that I get, but I know that there's room for error, surprising behavior, and my own expectations that may alter my evaluations. Of course, I'm not constantly thinking this in my mind obviously, but something in the back of my brain is like "Hmm, well didn't that seem like this... Oh, yeah, definitely, that's what that is, but let's just make sure..." Then after I leave, think about it more, then wait for more input. It's not like I'm unsure, but I don't want to make the wrong move. But I'll let my actions be influenced enough and see if the reception works out.
    Oh I'm interested now. Give me an example, like sometime you thought a person had X intentions, and how you figured out that your guess was right (or wrong).

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    Oh I'm interested now. Give me an example, like sometime you thought a person had X intentions, and how you figured out that your guess was right (or wrong).
    Funny enough, just after I posted this, I had a 'strange' phone call that immediately involved what is at hand in this topic. Talk about strange! Unfortunately there is a bit of context I have to give (Deltas don't mind, we're used to long stories about relationships, aren't we? )

    I received a phone call from a friend, and let's just say for simplicity that we are both good friends and friends with benefits. It's not really that one-dimensional, but it's not the focus here. So the night before, we basically had a really emotional day because we were basically going on a 'break' because he thinks that he and his best friend (Types involved, for the curious, are me as NeFi, him as SiTe, and his best friend is TeSi) are going to start to get romantic and she has been feeling jealous about me around him (it isn't public how intimate we are, but anyone could tell we were close). So we had a long conversation that ended in him saying we needed to put distance between one another and I wouldn't be seeing him for a while because of all this stuff, and had an emotional goodbye, and I thought that was that.

    Then last night, he calls me. We didn't even mention anything about what happened, he had me on speaker when he was cooking with his brother nearby, so it was just chit-chatting about random things. So, the first thing in my mind is "WTF?" figuring I wasn't going to hear from him in a long time. After a while, I started to notice that in my mind, I was forming questions as to what his intentions were for this phone call, and it wasn't that I was in the dark, it was that I wanted to find out by forming the possible reasons why and then eliminating the possibilities as I got clues. I want to get the right frame of mind for how to handle this, and make moves if necessary. I was trying to think "Is this his way of saying he still cares and is sorry?" or "Is he feeling remorseful?" I think a little knowledge of how SiTe tend to work their relationship is needed as well, as there are some things I overlook as significant (until I realized the pattern) that he does to show that he cares. I know that he has an underlying motive, but that it is changing constantly, little parts being added while others are chipped away, so trying to pin him down to one frame of mind is pointless (and would anger him).

    Overall, I feel like the process of figuring out intention is very different for me compared to how silver is describing it. I'm fine not completely knowing the intention and like it to organically piece itself together, but I still do pay attention to it, as it can provide useful context. So when a guy I find attractive randomly gives me his number, it's not coming to conclusions to what his motive was (flirting, looking for sex, just being interested) but opening up the realm of possible motives (i wonder if he meant it this way, isn't he usually a shy person, i think i'll wait and see what the first text/call is like) for me to then piece together later. Motives can be easily switched in and out until the appropriate one fits. Any other NeFi relate to any of this?

    /windbag

    ETA: I lied.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    I think the difference is that, very generally speaking, while Beta NFs evaluate people's intentions, Gamma NTs evaluate people's intelligence.
    I don't think it has to do with people's motive vs intelligence, that seems a little unequal, don't you think? If it's vs , it would have to be qualitative information vs quantitative information, or a similar, more balanced comparison.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    ok, I agree but it's about more than that. Fe is used to understand how internal, frequently changing (dynamic) qualities of a person or thing (object) manifest through external signals: actions, expressions, etc. This includes emotions but lots of other stuff too.

    I am speaking from personal experience. ILIs rarely ever say things like "oh, he's just saying that because he's still pissed off about X", but SEIs do a lot. Usually the kind of thing we're talking about here involves some kind of judgement of a person's emotional state. If it doesn't then it might even be related to (what a person is trying to get out of a situation).
    I think you're mixing emotional impulses ("he's still pissed off about X") and long term benefit ("he'll gain this by it, so that's probably why he's doing it").

    The point of being related to it is that the consequences of the action are often seen as obvious. So if helping others at one's own cost will benefit a person in the long term, their intentions are questioned - it isn't a sacrifice, but investment. Such as "playing hero" to gain in group's eyes, even if it wasn't the case. This is different from the example you give.

    The other issue is that the keyword seems to be "say".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana View Post
    They also make up intentions that have nothing at all to do with the person in question to justify their attitudes towards them. That's not "insight" it's plain dishonesty and purposeful blindness. Nothing against you Chris, but that's something that really annoys me, people inventing motives for others and claiming it's some great "insight" when it's just them being a moron for their own purposes.
    Oh ya there was that argument a while back where you got owned and your intentions got revealed.. Yeah I remember that.
    INTp

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    ^I'm butting in. I thought that thread was a good example of you and Gilly completely misunderstanding and misinterpretting Diana (or perhaps partially understanding and then twisting everything) and ganging up on her and accusing her of intentions she (imo) probably didn't have. (actually misrepresenting is possibly a better word)

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    Quote Originally Posted by look.to.the.sky View Post

    Overall, I feel like the process of figuring out intention is very different for me compared to how silver is describing it. I'm fine not completely knowing the intention and like it to organically piece itself together, but I still do pay attention to it, as it can provide useful context. So when a guy I find attractive randomly gives me his number, it's not coming to conclusions to what his motive was (flirting, looking for sex, just being interested) but opening up the realm of possible motives (i wonder if he meant it this way, isn't he usually a shy person, i think i'll wait and see what the first text/call is like) for me to then piece together later. Motives can be easily switched in and out until the appropriate one fits. Any other NeFi relate to any of this?
    That bolded bit is the difference, to me. I mean, that's the difference between Ni-ego and Ni-superid: as an Ni ego, I would say that if you guess right the first time, why keep looking at alternatives? I mean, you know, have a little confidence in your guess. But then in practice, I have subconscious Ne, because I don't always say my guess the first time, and I do allow for other information that might change the model. But I never have a shifting wheel of models like an Ne-ego might. I use a little Ne but I don't think it's that important. You use a little Ni but you don't think it's that important. Makes sense to me.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

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    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

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