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Thread: Quasi-identicals having irritating never ending discussions

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    take a second of me sarinana's Avatar
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    Default Quasi-identicals having irritating never ending discussions

    Read this and tell me what inter relation is that?


    I noticed myself having never ending discussions with my ENFp friend.
    Once we were going to this concert and we talked about random things until this IEE blurped: cartoons and TV shows are basically the same
    me: no they are not the same
    IEE: they are. if you think differently give me your arguments.
    me: for the first part animation and TV shows are not the same because....
    IEE interrupted me: let's take Married with kids and Simpsons for example
    me: I am not talking about Married with kids and Simpson I am talking about cartoons and TV shows being different as in general!
    IEE: so the Simpson and Married with kids are basically both are parodies of a stereotypical American family....
    me: hey do you even understand that I am not talking about Simpsons and....
    IEE interrupts again: so you agree that Simpsons and Married with kids are basically the same?
    me: no i do not agree with (meaning to say that animation and TV shows are the same)
    IEE interrupted me again and we kept trying to explain each other for like 20minutes... then:
    IEE: so you finally agree with me!
    me: No I do not! You are not even listening to what I am wanting to say!

    IEE: let's start from the beginning... I think Married with Kids and The Simpsons are the same and my arguments are....
    I interrupted: Can you for once listen to me! It's impossible to discuss with you, you do not listen!
    IEE: that's cause you don't know how to discuss.
    me: THE ACTUAL BEGINNING of our discussion is you saying that cartoons and TV shows are the same!!!!
    IEE: I did not said that!!! I was talking about married with kids and simpsons.
    me: yeah for the last 30 minutes you were. But everything started from your statement about animation! and then you jumped to married with kids and simpsons. i do understand what you mean about married with kids shit but all this time i was arguing on TV shows and Cartoons in general.
    IEE: There was no such statement from me!
    me: cool you even don't even remember what you are saying.
    IEE: I do remember I did not said this!
    me: enough! either you stop arguing with me or I will leave you here just now!
    IEE: how you wish
    me: i can do that!
    IEE: i know you can.
    me: this was the last word of you?

    IEE looking pissed but we ended our discussion finally.

    after 5 minutes

    IEE: i told you I did not slept enough today and I am easily irritated today. And you are irritating me.
    me: yeah yeah. do you have anything more to say?
    IEE: what?
    me: anything you like. remember when you accused for me being not eloquent when I didn't knew what to answer in your question "tell me something". Can I accuse you for this now too?
    IEE: why are you nagging me for the things I say?
    me: because you do not remember what you say!

    after this a calm break. only for a while....

    IEE: are you really a racist?
    me: Yeah of course! I've read Hitlers biography and I actually started making love to myself while reading it. (I was not being serious even tho I made myself sound like I was)
    IEE: what? are you being serious???
    me: totally serious! Hitler was awesome!
    IEE: even if you are joking it's not funny. there was nothing good about Hitler he killed so many people and etc etc etc
    me: but such a charisma! and those days does not seem so boring at least.
    IEE: No you are crazy! Would you like to be a Jew at that time?
    me: why not? i would have a chance to survive still! and my life would be way more interesting than it is right now!
    IEE: everything Hitler done was inhumane!!!
    me: well some disposal is natural. Among animals and among humans too. If mother nature is too lazy then some Hitler comes.
    IEE: Now you are immoral!
    me: I am immoral? why? I haven't done anything immoral myself.


    Well I did not really meant the things I said. I was just not expecting IEE taking me so serious and then had fun with it.


    and we have LOTS AND LOTS misunderstandings like that with him. It's even making me exhausted. but the last one was about socionics.

    me sending the link of description of ENFp to him: that's a lot like you!
    he: and what parts fit me in your opinion?
    me: almost everything. read!
    he: for example?
    me: I told you almost everything. you just need to read yourself!
    he: then tell me what does not fit me
    me: find yourself. i already closed the window.
    he: yeah it fits me as much as 50 of my acquaintances who have no similarities in themselves actually.
    me: you just don't get the theory.
    he: I can bet this description fits me as much as it fits you.
    me: you need to study the theory before splurging with such statements.
    he: ahem... you mean hypothesis not theory...
    me: IT IS A THEORY! acknowledge yourself!
    he: but wait.... oooooooooo "Currently, socionics has no academic backing and exists outside of official academia," nice
    me: that's quite a new theory that's why it is so.
    he: in a larger part of the world it's taken as hypothesis... not theory
    me: that's cause americans have their mayers briggs. why would they need another analogue?
    listen i will try to explain everything to you. cause right now you do not understand anything but only take some silly statements you find on wikipedia.
    that's what i call being superficial. the worst trait of a human in my opinion.
    he: enough of you judging me.
    <me explaining him whole ego, super ego, etc model in the simplest way I could possibly put it. remembering how hard it was for me to understand in the beginning.>
    he: I don't want to argue with you on this topic. I was never interested in socionics and I have a good reason for it. So I can't tell if this description fits me or not.
    <me finishing whole explanation>
    he: are you writing a novel?
    me: no. I AM EXPLAINING TO YOU!
    he: yeah everything is very clear to me.
    me: is it irony again?
    he: "Socionics has been called either protoscience or pseudoscience."
    me: yeah and again.....
    he: read what is pseudoscience... its the same as horoscopes (ironically he believes in horoscopes). thats not a science!
    me: yeah its better than your horoscopes where the person is born and everything is so clear! Woohoo!
    he: that's what i am trying to say... people are way too unique. and you can't define him after you asked him 30 questions. even 1000 wouldn't help.
    me: yeah you don't like structures i got it.
    he: okay I am ENFp and you are a typical Virgo. Happy now?
    me: no. cause that's not the same as horoscopes.
    he: if you will try to frame me you will get the same back. from my experiments you are a typical virgo.
    Sincerely Yours,

    Beyond the clouds. Beyond the sun.

    The Rebel without a cause.

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    That would be interesting if you really are EIE, since it kind of reminds me how some of my discussions with quasi-identicals go, with LIIs. The only difference is now I try to shut up because I know its pointless getting into a conversation with them.

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    Slippery when wet Simon Ssmall's Avatar
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    He makes valid points when it comes to socionics. And he was not interested in it so why you tried to explain it to him. I he is TOTALY not interested in some pseudoscience why would he try to understand it. Makes no sense. If he was curious enough then sure, but he was nowhere near it. Its like Maritsa asking SlackerMom how to explain things to her to make her understand when she is NOT INTERESTED IN IT WHATSOEVER.

    My two cents.

    As for the first part he was an ass as far as i'm concerned. Interrupting people is not cool, especially often. I do that sometimes, but I try to constantly control this so I don't think i'm that bad, but who knows. When I speak I imagine my opinion is the most interesting and important .
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  4. #4
    take a second of me sarinana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ssmall View Post
    He makes valid points when it comes to socionics. And he was not interested in it so why you tried to explain it to him. I he is TOTALY not interested in some pseudoscience why would he try to understand it. Makes no sense. If he was curious enough then sure, but he was nowhere near it. Its like Maritsa asking SlackerMom how to explain things to her to make her understand when she is NOT INTERESTED IN IT WHATSOEVER.

    My two cents.

    As for the first part he was an ass as far as i'm concerned. Interrupting people is not cool, especially often. I do that sometimes, but I try to constantly control this so I don't think i'm that bad, but who knows. When I speak I imagine my opinion is the most interesting and important .
    yea it's kind of I don't hate him and I am sure he doesn't hate me too. And I think he is a good person beside that but fuck...we just can't discuss anything with each other. Our discussions always end up with a huge irritation unless we switch from subject to subject without really analyzing them...

    The thing is I am in a relationship with him. And that makes me want him to show at least some genuine interest in the things I am interested in. I would show it. And that's why I kept explaining to him.
    But I feel like our relationship is getting nowhere... kind of like time stands still... and at the same time I can't just end it. Apart these never ending discussions there is no other reason. So I just avoid meeting him and hope maybe it will just vanish away with time.... cause I don't wanna hurt him since he disses all his ex girlfriends. And I don't want him to diss me afterward.
    Sincerely Yours,

    Beyond the clouds. Beyond the sun.

    The Rebel without a cause.

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    Slippery when wet Simon Ssmall's Avatar
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    Heh, my relationships with ENFj were one of the worst probably. There seems to be almost no common ground except a few topics, like travels and meeting new people...that's about it. If we stick to those topics then we see eye to eye if we switch to anything else then it simply leave us (or at least me) completely exhausted and frustrated.
    Looking for an Archnemesis. Willing applicants contact via PM.

    ENFp - Fi 7w6 sp/sx
    The Ineffable IEI
    The Einstein ENTp

    johari nohari
    http://www.mypersonality.info/ssmall/

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    Executor MatthewZ's Avatar
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    Cartoons and other TV shows really are the same, you know. Married with Kids and the Simpsons both capture the essence of a dysfunctional American family. Sure, some cartoons may diverge from the more "popular" genre seen in the rest of television, but it's ultimately just using different mediums to tell a story, which ultimately both can end up on our TV programming.

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    take a second of me sarinana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MatthewZ View Post
    Cartoons and other TV shows really are the same, you know. Married with Kids and the Simpsons both capture the essence of a dysfunctional American family. Sure, some cartoons may diverge from the more "popular" genre seen in the rest of television, but it's ultimately just using different mediums to tell a story, which ultimately both can end up on our TV programming.
    You Ne people...
    Cartoons are liked by the majority of kids since cartoons(not all of course) develop imagination. TV shows does not. Also there is something in Cartoons what is very hard to explain in words what TV shows lack...
    Of course the main ideas behind TV shows and cartoons can be completely the same and completely different depending on the exact examples.
    Sincerely Yours,

    Beyond the clouds. Beyond the sun.

    The Rebel without a cause.

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    take a second of me sarinana's Avatar
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    So you think I am ENFj? and that this relationship is quasi-identical?
    Sincerely Yours,

    Beyond the clouds. Beyond the sun.

    The Rebel without a cause.

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    Slippery when wet Simon Ssmall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarinana View Post
    So you think I am ENFj? and that this relationship is quasi-identical?
    Could be. I had similar communication problems with ENFj and INFp girlfriends.
    Looking for an Archnemesis. Willing applicants contact via PM.

    ENFp - Fi 7w6 sp/sx
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    johari nohari
    http://www.mypersonality.info/ssmall/

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    aka Slacker Slacker's Avatar
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    I also find cartoons and regular TV shows to be basically the same. Just one has drawings and one has filmed actors. But the same basic storylines, same stupid gags, same plots.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    The ENFp in the conversation has trouble understanding the meaning of things he says. That's his Ti polr. He has no idea what the words hypothesis and theory mean. In the end he compares socionics to astrology based on a thin piece of information despite knowing nothing about socionics ..
    INTp

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    El Presidente de Mi Cabeza GallopingQwerty's Avatar
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    LMAO! If you take out the interrupting and judgemental statements, I have had this IEE/IEI conversation many many times with one of my best friends.

    I'm not sure how to make it better, either. And yeah I do get exactly where he was coming from with both the "animation and TV are the same" and "Married with Kids and Simpsons" arguments.
    "Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society." Mark Twain

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    I am definitely a 7, and most likely an IEE. Stay tuned for further updates.

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    Executor MatthewZ's Avatar
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    The thing I got out of that chat is that EIEs and IEEs probably shouldn't interrupt each other in conversation.

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    take a second of me sarinana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedratXII View Post
    The ENFp in the conversation has trouble understanding the meaning of things he says. That's his Ti polr. He has no idea what the words hypothesis and theory mean. In the end he compares socionics to astrology based on a thin piece of information despite knowing nothing about socionics ..
    lol that's exactly what I told him yesterday. At first he tried to argue with me but when I told him that he is just "incapable of understanding" he got insulted and went to sleep.

    or like it got even worse before

    ENFp: that's not a theory, when it will be accepted by scientists I will check it out.
    me: it's a theory! even if your beloved wikipedia calls it so!
    ENFp: at this moment I don't have the right education to go into more detailed understanding.
    me: at this moment you are just not respecting me!
    ENFp: theory which has not been proved is called hypothesis.
    me: one is to disagree with me and stay silent and the other is to tell me that what i like is bullshit.
    ENFp: i thought we are socializing. you know..sharing our opinions. sorry if i offended you. I didn't thought I would.
    me: you think that arguing is a normal socializing?
    ENFp: you like to blame me all the time.
    me: and you like to argue all the time.
    ENFp: I like to discuss.
    me: to argue.
    ENFp: I thought we were discussing. But if you were arguing then yeah... then it's different.
    me: you were not discussing you were only criticizing my ideology.
    ENFp: it's ok that you have your own opinion which is different from mine. i m not saying that my opinion is right but I haven't seen any proofs that could change my opinion so far.
    me: one proof is that we are not getting a long!
    ENFp: maybe I will take a look at it?
    me: at what?
    ENFp: socionics (wow!!!! after 2 days of arguments he now finally decided to take a look at it!)
    me: why only now you decided to do that?
    ENFp: not now. I was reading about it for a while. Just I am interested in all the pros and not only cons.
    me: maybe you should take a look at the theory itself instead of others opinions about it?
    ENFp: not all opinions have the same weight. (WTF? I swear... maybe it's a bad translation.... but he is worse than Maritsa)
    me: how this connects to my last message?
    ENFp: for example academics, who are studying psychology for many years knows more than me or any other average head.
    me: for the gods sake why are you not trying to understand the theory?!
    ENFp: what is Jung's typology? What is socionics theory?
    me: socionics is based on jungs typology model <.....>
    ENFp: anyway... this one? Jung's Typology - Wikisocion
    me: i haven't read this one before... but this page is good.
    ENFp: and there is no criticism. Jung did not worked with socionics!
    me: of course he didn't. nobody said that.
    ENFp: I have read about Jung a lot already.


    Sincerely Yours,

    Beyond the clouds. Beyond the sun.

    The Rebel without a cause.

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    Slippery when wet Simon Ssmall's Avatar
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    I really see no problem with the things he says in your last post. If you tried to show how he is obnoxious then I failed at seeing it . Must be a quadra or whatever thing.
    Looking for an Archnemesis. Willing applicants contact via PM.

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    El Presidente de Mi Cabeza GallopingQwerty's Avatar
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    Yeah, this is the same line that happens when I try to have discussions with my IEI friend, with only a few small variations.

    As a (most likely) IEE, all I can say is... do your best not to take it personally if he's not immediately interested in doing/reading the things you give him. It really isn't about you or your relationship at all.

    For example: my IEI friend has been offended for weeks that I am not interested in joining her writing group, and keeps saying that I do not respect her or take her seriously because I haven't done it. The reality of the situation for me is that I don't have time to add another activity to my weekly plate right now, plus it is not my goal to become a published writer (as hers is) so this is not an activity that revs my engine. I understand that she keeps asking me because she wants to share an important part of her life, and it upsets her when she thinks I am shrugging her off because she thinks I am devaluing something that is precious to her... but I dearly wish she would see that my disinterest has absolutely nothing to do with her and everything to do with my own lack of free time and different goals/projects that I am already trying to work on.

    Plus there's the problem that, if I feel like she is pushing me too hard to do or think something that she wants, my automatic reaction is to push back even harder to make her stop doing that. Which of course never works, because she takes it as me not respecting what she is saying and then she pushes even harder. When we get into that cycle, the only way to get around it is to not even talk about whatever the trigger issue was to begin with (which is not a permanent solution).

    In your case... I see where you're coming from, but I'm also seeing places where you're really pushing him to do something or think something the same way you do. And it reads like you're feeling hurt and possibly betrayed when he resists or tries to come at it from a different angle. I know it's not easy, but you might really benefit from taking a step back, taking a deep breath, and letting him get into it on his own if he chooses to (and accept it if he never does).

    I guarantee that if you let him approach it his way on his terms, he'll be a lot more receptive to your point of view. And you'll both be way less stressed out.
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    I am definitely a 7, and most likely an IEE. Stay tuned for further updates.

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    nvmd

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    ... that's what you get for asking Ti from Ti-PoLR?

    Looks like the reason these arguments you're posting go on for so long is because you're both only providing arguments which are convincing to yourselves, and not to the other person, who devalues them.

    I find this snippet (from Wikipedia) works for showing the difference between theory and hypothesis, even if it's not a formal definition:

    A hypothesis is the application of a theory or theories to new conditions which has yet to be tested while a theory is a prediction based on the results of previous observations or experiments. It is not, however, uncommon for a theory to produce predictions that are later confirmed or proven incorrect by experiment. By inference, a prediction proved incorrect by experiment demonstrates the hypothesis is invalid. This either means the theory is incorrect, or the experimental conjecture was wrong and the theory did not predict the hypothesis.
    By this socionics' model of personality is a theory, as it was based on empirical observation. Intertype relations are arguably largely hypothetical, since they're based on theoretical model - but descriptions of how these relations usually work are probably based on observation, which might have confirmed the original hypothesis or not.

    So hypothetically it would be better to give IEE a definition instead of taking it personally. Of course, hypothetically it would be highly unlikely for IEI and unlikely for EIE to do so (Fe >> Te). Theoretically, you two have all functions in correcting attitude and out-of-sync "vital rings". Hypothetically, you two are going to keep arguing in circles.

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    take a second of me sarinana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    ... that's what you get for asking Ti from Ti-PoLR?

    Looks like the reason these arguments you're posting go on for so long is because you're both only providing arguments which are convincing to yourselves, and not to the other person, who devalues them.

    I find this snippet (from Wikipedia) works for showing the difference between theory and hypothesis, even if it's not a formal definition:



    By this socionics' model of personality is a theory, as it was based on empirical observation. Intertype relations are arguably largely hypothetical, since they're based on theoretical model - but descriptions of how these relations usually work are probably based on observation, which might have confirmed the original hypothesis or not.

    So hypothetically it would be better to give IEE a definition instead of taking it personally. Of course, hypothetically it would be highly unlikely for IEI and unlikely for EIE to do so (Fe >> Te). Theoretically, you two have all functions in correcting attitude and out-of-sync "vital rings". Hypothetically, you two are going to keep arguing in circles.
    Thank you, Aiss
    Sincerely Yours,

    Beyond the clouds. Beyond the sun.

    The Rebel without a cause.

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    take a second of me sarinana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GallopingQwerty View Post
    Yeah, this is the same line that happens when I try to have discussions with my IEI friend, with only a few small variations.

    As a (most likely) IEE, all I can say is... do your best not to take it personally if he's not immediately interested in doing/reading the things you give him. It really isn't about you or your relationship at all.

    For example: my IEI friend has been offended for weeks that I am not interested in joining her writing group, and keeps saying that I do not respect her or take her seriously because I haven't done it. The reality of the situation for me is that I don't have time to add another activity to my weekly plate right now, plus it is not my goal to become a published writer (as hers is) so this is not an activity that revs my engine. I understand that she keeps asking me because she wants to share an important part of her life, and it upsets her when she thinks I am shrugging her off because she thinks I am devaluing something that is precious to her... but I dearly wish she would see that my disinterest has absolutely nothing to do with her and everything to do with my own lack of free time and different goals/projects that I am already trying to work on.

    Plus there's the problem that, if I feel like she is pushing me too hard to do or think something that she wants, my automatic reaction is to push back even harder to make her stop doing that. Which of course never works, because she takes it as me not respecting what she is saying and then she pushes even harder. When we get into that cycle, the only way to get around it is to not even talk about whatever the trigger issue was to begin with (which is not a permanent solution).

    In your case... I see where you're coming from, but I'm also seeing places where you're really pushing him to do something or think something the same way you do. And it reads like you're feeling hurt and possibly betrayed when he resists or tries to come at it from a different angle. I know it's not easy, but you might really benefit from taking a step back, taking a deep breath, and letting him get into it on his own if he chooses to (and accept it if he never does).

    I guarantee that if you let him approach it his way on his terms, he'll be a lot more receptive to your point of view. And you'll both be way less stressed out.
    This post was very true. I kind of realize what is wrong myself... but only after each argument we have and it's already too late.
    Sincerely Yours,

    Beyond the clouds. Beyond the sun.

    The Rebel without a cause.

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    take a second of me sarinana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ssmall View Post
    I really see no problem with the things he says in your last post. If you tried to show how he is obnoxious then I failed at seeing it . Must be a quadra or whatever thing.
    it's not obnoxious. it's hard to explain. But I feel like he is messing everything up. All his sentences are messed up. Even when we talk in reality and don't argue I kind of get myself bored listening to him since he uses way too many words, descriptions, epithets, synonyms, etc which are totally random and seem unimportant and i just get the impression like I will never hear the main point.
    Kind of like "Oh something really interesting happened to me once! you see I did this and the person A was there, but then I decided to do this, and so I came to place A, and there I met this person D.... oh do you know that person D did this and then he met this person C <....15minutes talking about that person...>
    me: so what was the interesting thing what happened to you?
    he: what interesting thing?
    me: um never mind....
    Sincerely Yours,

    Beyond the clouds. Beyond the sun.

    The Rebel without a cause.

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    Linas's Avatar
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    those shitty deltians. my dad always pisses me off with his talks... it's hard to listen to those talks... he's my conflictor, afterall...

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    ._. Aiss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarinana View Post
    it's not obnoxious. it's hard to explain. But I feel like he is messing everything up. All his sentences are messed up. Even when we talk in reality and don't argue I kind of get myself bored listening to him since he uses way too many words, descriptions, epithets, synonyms, etc which are totally random and seem unimportant and i just get the impression like I will never hear the main point.
    Kind of like "Oh something really interesting happened to me once! you see I did this and the person A was there, but then I decided to do this, and so I came to place A, and there I met this person D.... oh do you know that person D did this and then he met this person C <....15minutes talking about that person...>
    me: so what was the interesting thing what happened to you?
    he: what interesting thing?
    me: um never mind....
    That's my experience with ESEs.

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    take a second of me sarinana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    That's my experience with ESEs.
    From my experience ESEs just generally talk about boring things (not always but usually). Like my ESE teacher she likes getting into personal talks with her students and so whenever I have those personal talks with her she doesn't jump from one idea to another like this guy. It's more like she starts telling the story and after 3minutes I already get what she wanted to say and what's the main point but she keeps on going into more and more details without an end. And I try to tell her politely since she is my teacher like "yeah I understood now let me goooo" but she simply does not listen. It just feels like she takes too much of my time and that's kinda annoying. I swear she could make a one hour speech about an orange.
    And then I know this younger ESE. She is more easier to shut up. Hangs out with betas mostly and does not let herself speak so free.
    Sincerely Yours,

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    ._. Aiss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarinana View Post
    From my experience ESEs just generally talk about boring things (not always but usually). Like my ESE teacher she likes getting into personal talks with her students and so whenever I have those personal talks with her she doesn't jump from one idea to another like this guy. It's more like she starts telling the story and after 3minutes I already get what she wanted to say and what's the main point but she keeps on going into more and more details without an end. And I try to tell her politely since she is my teacher like "yeah I understood now let me goooo" but she simply does not listen. It just feels like she takes too much of my time and that's kinda annoying. I swear she could make a one hour speech about an orange.
    And then I know this younger ESE. She is more easier to shut up. Hangs out with betas mostly and does not let herself speak so free.
    Yes, it's not so much random ideas as having to follow every digression and describe it in detail. And then repeat it in other words. Then maybe do it again. So perhaps I didn't get what you were saying about IEE really. I understood it as this lengthy never getting to the point thing.

  26. #26
    take a second of me sarinana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    Yes, it's not so much random ideas as having to follow every digression and describe it in detail. And then repeat it in other words. Then maybe do it again. So perhaps I didn't get what you were saying about IEE really. I understood it as this lengthy never getting to the point thing.
    IEE: starts talking about some thing then jumps to something else and maybe to something even more different again and again until he gets lost himself in what he wanted to say. Yet I think he doesn't think so. Or it just doesn't make sense to me.
    The actual point is left unknown.
    ESE: starts talking about some thing then goes into details, then into more details then repeats it in other words with different details.
    The actual point is clear after few minutes. Yet I think ESE thinks I am so stupid (and having lots of free time) that I need to know every single detail to understand her.
    Sincerely Yours,

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    The Rebel without a cause.

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    ._. Aiss's Avatar
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    I agree, especially with the point about ESEs explaining and repeating things as if I was stupid. Which on the other hand would probably make them better at tutoring.

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    Breaking stereotypes Suz's Avatar
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    Just to describe my reactions to reading the dialogues above for a purely typing purpose, in particular the Hitler discussion, i found myself wholeheartedly agreeing with the IEE and being pretty appalled at the things you said, even with my knowledge that you said those things in jest. My thought is that it was a Fi-valuing (IEE) vs Fi-unvaluing (you) miscommunication. So I agree with EIE or IEI for you, actually.
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    hm, lol, i cannot decide, whenever my ex was eii or iei... but she seems to enjoy getting on my tail with her bullshit talkings, like:

    her: bla-bla, so did that, and did that, bla-bla-bla
    me: (UHGRRRRRRRR, how can she not apriacate my company and start talking random stuff about how her day was amazing...)


    she could be eii. plus my dad loved her, they could be duals...

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    El Presidente de Mi Cabeza GallopingQwerty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarinana View Post
    This post was very true. I kind of realize what is wrong myself... but only after each argument we have and it's already too late.
    Sigh... yeah, ain't that the truth. My friend and I only seem to get around it when we're both being a lot more careful about repeating back what we think the other person is saying (i.e. You've just said that you hate cheesecake. Are you saying that you hate all cheesecake in general, or that your stomach is upset after that last piece of cheesecake and you only hate it temporarily?).

    And that can be pretty silly sometimes, so the side benefit is that we both start laughing at the ridiculousness of it all.
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    I am definitely a 7, and most likely an IEE. Stay tuned for further updates.

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    El Presidente de Mi Cabeza GallopingQwerty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarinana View Post
    IEE: starts talking about some thing then jumps to something else and maybe to something even more different again and again until he gets lost himself in what he wanted to say. Yet I think he doesn't think so. Or it just doesn't make sense to me.
    The actual point is left unknown.
    The point is only left unknown to you. One of the downsides of thinking in concentric circles instead of straight lines is that sometimes it is difficult to see where someone else might get lost when you're making all these connections in your head.

    My IEI friend and I often have discussions like:

    IEI: I really want to have a kid, but I can't do it. I just don't have the money or the time, or even a car! Plus I want to go to school and I need a job, and I can't do any of these things with a baby.

    IEE: Tons of people have kids without a car, I see them on the train every day! And there are some jobs that have daycares at the company, we should research those. Or maybe you could move into one of those community houses they have here with a bunch of single parents, then rent is cheaper and you have help babysitting. Oooh, maybe you could go to school full time and open a side childcare company? Then you get free daycare and a job at the same time! And eventually you could hire people to help you when it gets bigger, and then you have the company and income without having to work all the time. Yeah, this could work.

    IEI: You're not getting it, I know other people do this stuff but *I* can't do it. And why the heck would I start a company??

    IEE: It could work, stop being so negative! You could live in this community house and watch all their kids while they're at work, and get paid, and then do night classes and someone in the house can watch your kid. And you wouldn't even need a car because work, home and childcare is all in one spot! Hey I have a friend who did this, let me get you her number. You remember Amy, right?

    IEI: But I need a car to get to the grocery store, and what if there's an emergency? I just can't do this. And... why am I talking to Amy?

    IEE: So live near an urban area with a hospital and stores! Hmm, maybe even take the kid volunteering on weekends, that would be a great character builder. Want to come with me this weekend to see how it works? I'll call Bob, he can get you a visitor pass. Let's do that today, after we call Amy. She'd be thrilled to help you set up the same kind of company that she did! Did you know that she also makes cupcakes for local shows now too?

    IEI: Argh, you're not listening! I just can't do this!

    +++++++++++++++++++

    And this goes on and on and on, because I am completely missing the fact that she just really feels overwhelmed and wants to talk out her fears and concerns. And by the end of the conversation I am frustrated because I have come up with brilliant answers to all of her questions, and she is frustrated because she has no idea why I'm volunteering her to open a daycare and move across town when all she wanted to do was talk about how afraid she is to have a kid on her own.

    Is either person right or wrong? Nope. Just not walking the same path, and it takes work from both people to get to the same place again. The IEE needs to take a step back and think about *all* of the possible meanings of what the IEI is saying (and ask which one is meant if there's any question), and the IEI needs to work on clarifying exactly what they're trying to say without feeling personally attacked if they haven't quite managed it yet.

    And, sometimes, there will be conversation topics where both people are equally bad at communicating with each other. Those you might want to just let go and talk about with other people.
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  32. #32
    take a second of me sarinana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GallopingQwerty View Post
    The point is only left unknown to you. One of the downsides of thinking in concentric circles instead of straight lines is that sometimes it is difficult to see where someone else might get lost when you're making all these connections in your head.

    My IEI friend and I often have discussions like:

    IEI: I really want to have a kid, but I can't do it. I just don't have the money or the time, or even a car! Plus I want to go to school and I need a job, and I can't do any of these things with a baby.

    IEE: Tons of people have kids without a car, I see them on the train every day! And there are some jobs that have daycares at the company, we should research those. Or maybe you could move into one of those community houses they have here with a bunch of single parents, then rent is cheaper and you have help babysitting. Oooh, maybe you could go to school full time and open a side childcare company? Then you get free daycare and a job at the same time! And eventually you could hire people to help you when it gets bigger, and then you have the company and income without having to work all the time. Yeah, this could work.

    IEI: You're not getting it, I know other people do this stuff but *I* can't do it. And why the heck would I start a company??

    IEE: It could work, stop being so negative! You could live in this community house and watch all their kids while they're at work, and get paid, and then do night classes and someone in the house can watch your kid. And you wouldn't even need a car because work, home and childcare is all in one spot! Hey I have a friend who did this, let me get you her number. You remember Amy, right?

    IEI: But I need a car to get to the grocery store, and what if there's an emergency? I just can't do this. And... why am I talking to Amy?

    IEE: So live near an urban area with a hospital and stores! Hmm, maybe even take the kid volunteering on weekends, that would be a great character builder. Want to come with me this weekend to see how it works? I'll call Bob, he can get you a visitor pass. Let's do that today, after we call Amy. She'd be thrilled to help you set up the same kind of company that she did! Did you know that she also makes cupcakes for local shows now too?

    IEI: Argh, you're not listening! I just can't do this!

    +++++++++++++++++++

    And this goes on and on and on, because I am completely missing the fact that she just really feels overwhelmed and wants to talk out her fears and concerns. And by the end of the conversation I am frustrated because I have come up with brilliant answers to all of her questions, and she is frustrated because she has no idea why I'm volunteering her to open a daycare and move across town when all she wanted to do was talk about how afraid she is to have a kid on her own.

    Is either person right or wrong? Nope. Just not walking the same path, and it takes work from both people to get to the same place again. The IEE needs to take a step back and think about *all* of the possible meanings of what the IEI is saying (and ask which one is meant if there's any question), and the IEI needs to work on clarifying exactly what they're trying to say without feeling personally attacked if they haven't quite managed it yet.

    And, sometimes, there will be conversation topics where both people are equally bad at communicating with each other. Those you might want to just let go and talk about with other people.
    On this side the IEI seems more obnoxious. Or maybe you have missed some additions beside hers "your not listening?" so yeah. your ideas sounds good and I would value that in her place unless she really told you the reasons why she couldn't do that.


    ok I think me and the ENFp are on break. Today he called but I did not answered since I was busy with my artwork. But I guess he wanted to meet me to break up or whatever. When he came back home I texted him and again we can't talk normally!
    me: sorry i did not answered. i did not hear you calling.
    he: no problem
    me: what you wanted?
    he: nothing
    me: so why you called?
    me: hey why are you not answering?
    he: what do you want to hear?
    me: why you called
    he: i dont remember
    me: wtf? how can you not remember?
    he: is this a rhetorical(!!!?) question?
    me: well if i am right you called me not ages ago.
    he: i called because i wanted to meet you.

    now why it takes for IEE 30 minutes to answer such a simple question????
    Sincerely Yours,

    Beyond the clouds. Beyond the sun.

    The Rebel without a cause.

  33. #33
    Logical vegetable Existential Potato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    Just to describe my reactions to reading the dialogues above for a purely typing purpose, in particular the Hitler discussion, i found myself wholeheartedly agreeing with the IEE and being pretty appalled at the things you said, even with my knowledge that you said those things in jest. My thought is that it was a Fi-valuing (IEE) vs Fi-unvaluing (you) miscommunication. So I agree with EIE or IEI for you, actually.
    The tone and demeanor of the conversation are lost to us, so it's not clear whether the IEE was being difficult on purpose or if he was genuinely surprised. I found it hilarious and his reaction off-beat, though unsurprising.

    Those Ne user conversations are funny. My LSI friend and I often joke about Ne, accusing it of silly options and exaggerated 'what if' sequences.

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    El Presidente de Mi Cabeza GallopingQwerty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarinana View Post
    On this side the IEI seems more obnoxious. Or maybe you have missed some additions beside hers "your not listening?" so yeah. your ideas sounds good and I would value that in her place unless she really told you the reasons why she couldn't do that.
    That might also be her low self-esteem coming through, she really does believe that she is the only one who can't do things sometimes. But really the point was more about how I was focused on random brainstorming instead of just listening to her concerns, and we both felt like the other person wasn't getting what we were saying.


    Quote Originally Posted by sarinana View Post
    ok I think me and the ENFp are on break. Today he called but I did not answered since I was busy with my artwork. But I guess he wanted to meet me to break up or whatever. When he came back home I texted him and again we can't talk normally!
    *snip*

    If he really was just calling on the off chance that you might be able to hang out and then you weren't available, it's entirely possible that he found something else to do and then forgot why he called you. The fact that he didn't leave a message tells me that it wasn't an important event for him, so it might be easy to forget when addressed a couple of hours later.

    ... honestly it kinda sounds like maybe a break is a good idea for you guys, with the little bit of info you've given. If you're getting this frustrated over a short text exchange, this might not be the relationship for you. Just a thought, I could be wrong...
    "Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society." Mark Twain

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    I am definitely a 7, and most likely an IEE. Stay tuned for further updates.

  35. #35
    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
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    Circle-talking is exhausting. Sometimes when this happens to me I take a break and find someone to talk to where it won't happen, where we can relate and communicate easily and agree, to sort of "recharge" myself. It's kind of like a sanity check, almost - "I'm not crazy; there are people who do get what I'm saying and think I'm reasonable". And then I can go back to the other person feeling a little more stable again at least.
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  36. #36
    Slippery when wet Simon Ssmall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarinana View Post
    now why it takes for IEE 30 minutes to answer such a simple question????
    Either he doesnt want to answer on the phone and that question is not that simple or
    It was not important and he forgot.
    Looking for an Archnemesis. Willing applicants contact via PM.

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  37. #37
    take a second of me sarinana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by he died with a felafel View Post
    i concur
    Well I hope he will leave me. Or just move on.
    We got attracted to each other very quickly but after that we were not going anywhere and our relationship now is still not promising.
    We have many common interests like music, books and Tim Burton movies, etc. But when we try to discuss about our interests, even those we have in common we end up disappointed.
    In the period of four months we did not even managed to take each others clothes off! It can't get any worser.
    Sincerely Yours,

    Beyond the clouds. Beyond the sun.

    The Rebel without a cause.

  38. #38
    Breaking stereotypes Suz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Existential Potato View Post
    The tone and demeanor of the conversation are lost to us, so it's not clear whether the IEE was being difficult on purpose or if he was genuinely surprised. I found it hilarious and his reaction off-beat, though unsurprising.

    Those Ne user conversations are funny. My LSI friend and I often joke about Ne, accusing it of silly options and exaggerated 'what if' sequences.
    Oh no, I dont think the IEE was being difficult at all. It was a sincere reaction, reflecting confusion about Sarinana's views and an underlying hope that she really didn't endorse those kinds of views. I would have reacted the same exact way (and not to be difficult or lay on a guilt trip either, at least not intentionally).

    I think the problem is that IEE's (and possibly delta's in general, or delta NFs) are careful about what we joke about, and we dont like to joke about such things where a lot of people have suffered. I do realize that some people do joke like that, however I personally believe that every joke reveals an element of truth about the person.
    Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx

  39. #39
    take a second of me sarinana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post

    I think the problem is that IEE's (and possibly delta's in general, or delta NFs) are careful about what we joke about, and we dont like to joke about such things where a lot of people have suffered. I do realize that some people do joke like that, however I personally believe that every joke reveals an element of truth about the person.
    Eh it might be the same how I react to most of Si humor(or at least I think it's Si). The kind of humor where you have to focus on a persons physical experience. I can give one example I got from this SLI guy: I just don't see anything funny about it.
    Or the same SLI sent me a picture of a man who hung himself on dick. Not that it didn't made me laugh but also I got super annoyed by that picture to the point that I did not talked with that SLI for several days.

    And IEE takes some of my jokes too personal. Like we were chatting and I showed him this picture and I don't know how it was possible but he got upset! And I only showed this picture cause I thought it was funny.

    + Being able to make one another laugh is one of the most important things in a relationship. I don't remember this IEE making me laugh nor he finds me funny. That's sad. Probably one of the most boring relationships I ever had.
    Last edited by sarinana; 05-04-2010 at 05:51 PM.
    Sincerely Yours,

    Beyond the clouds. Beyond the sun.

    The Rebel without a cause.

  40. #40
    take a second of me sarinana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by he died with a felafel View Post
    Gee, you're hoping poor IEE will do all the dirty job, tsk tsk tsk . Looks like unwittingly i put extra emphasis on that one phone call, when in reality, who knows, maybe IEE just wanted to chat. I was just trying to say i doubt he forgot what he wanted to say.

    But hey, Sari, i think Minde has a point above re. circular conversations though, may be worth a try.

    And how slow of IEE taking 4 months to take his clothes off, what the hell was he wearing, his entire wardrobe?

    Yeah Minde is right. But once I find a person with whom I can re-charge myself why would I want to come back to the first one? It's not like we are coworkers or anything similar that I would have to see him everyday. For now I just avoid meeting him.
    Sincerely Yours,

    Beyond the clouds. Beyond the sun.

    The Rebel without a cause.

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