Types of children of dual pairs

[Slacker]

This comes from the "Words my Baby Knows" thread in Anything Goes

I am IEE and my husband is SLI. I'm quite sure our older daughter is IEE, and there are some signs that the younger one could potentially be SLI, though she's very young so it's early yet.

Maritsa (I think I finally know how to spell her name) thinks that this is how it works with duals. What have people seen IRL? I'm trying to think of dual couples I know whose kids are old enough and whose kids I know well enough where I feel comfortable typing them. I know another SLI/IEE couple whose daughter is I believe ILI, but while I'm pretty sure of her type I wouldn't call myself absolutely sure as I don't see her often.

So give me some info from people you know very well.

[DirectorAbbie]

Dad: LSE
Mom: EII
Adopted Son: IEE

Dad: LSE
Mom: EII
Daughter: Introverted decisive?
Daughter: IEE
Son: Introvert

Dad: IEE
Mom: SLI
Son: LII
Daughter: LSE
Son: SEI
Son: SLE

No others come to mind at the moment.

[consentingadult]

I do believe (based on what I see in my dad's Delta family and my mom's Gamma family), that type is genetically inheritable. But like all other stuff that's inheritable, it's not just the parents that you inherit genes from, but also grandparents genes that may lie 'dormant' in your parents etc. Not that I'm planning to have kids, but if I were to have children with my SEI GF, I think there would still be a chance of having a Gamma child, since I might carry 'Gamma genes' from my mom.

Genetics is a complicated thing.

ETA:

my father: SLI
mother: ESI
stepfather: LSI
my dad's 2nd wife: LSE

full bother: SEE - his daughter: SEE

half brother from my mom: LSI

Half brother from my dad: LSE, his wife: LSE
half sister from my dad: EII, her husband: LSE

my dad's mother: EII

my mother's family:
dad: SEE - his mother: ESI
mother: LSI
brother: LIE
sister: SEE

[Slacker]

Genetics is a complicated thing.

This is true too.

I have a Gamma mom and a Beta dad, and my husband's parents are Alpha, so really we could still have kids of any quadra then.

[Trevor]

Daddy ESTj, Mommy INFj
Son INTj, daughter ESFp, son ENTp

Daddy ISTj, Mommy ENFj
Daughter IXXX, daughter ESTj, son ISTp>INTp

Daddy INTj, Mommy ESFj
Son INTj, daughter ?

Daddy ISTj, Mommy ENFj
Son ESTp, son ?, son ESTp, son IXXx

[Existential Potato]

I do believe (based on what I see in my dad's Delta family and my mom's Gamma family), that type is genetically inheritable. But like all other stuff that's inheritable, it's not just the parents that you inherit genes from, but also grandparents genes that may lie 'dormant' in your parents etc. Not that I'm planning to have kids, but if I were to have children with my SEI GF, I think there would still be a chance of having a Gamma child, since I might carry 'Gamma genes' frommy mom.

Genetics is a complicated thing.

Since there's no 'socionics' gene in people, you would probably have to 'type' certain traits or characteristics in genes. I wonder if there will be full time jobs like that int eh future

But yeah, without knowing all that we don't really know the chances of certain offspring so there will be outliers that might confuse us.
If it helps any, I've got gamma parents who have produced alphas and deltas, and perhaps beta too if I've got the typing of a 5 year old correct

[consentingadult]

This is true too.

I have a Gamma mom and a Beta dad, and my husband's parents are Alpha, so really we could still have kids of any quadra then.

Can you yourself trace back your 'delta-ness' to some ancestor(s)??

[consentingadult]

Since there's no 'socionics' gene in people

We don't know that as yet. Mainstream genetic science has not investigated this yet. However, based on my perceptions in real life, I think it makes a nice hypothesis. Of course, after it has been extablished whether socionics types is either fully nurture or nature, or a mix of both.

ETA: I get your point now: no specific socionics gene. That's true of course, genes typically work together, and single genes might have multiple purposes.

[Slacker]

Can you yourself trace back your 'delta-ness' to some ancestor(s)??

My dad's parents were both Delta NFs. But really there are 16 types, and if we go back far enough, we can probably find every type in everyone's ancestory.

[Slacker]

Since there's no 'socionics' gene in people, you would probably have to 'type' certain traits or characteristics in genes.

this is an interesting point too. Maybe there are a number of genes that together make up a type. OR influence type.

[consentingadult]

My dad's parents were both Delta NFs. But really there are 16 types, and if we go back far enough, we can probably find every type in everyone's ancestory.

That is true, but if I recall correctly from biology, genes don't go that far back (or was it chromosomes??). Anybody here who can explain genetics in this respect??

[Slacker]

That is true, but if I recall correctly from biology, genes don't go that far back (or was it chromosomes??). Anybody here who can explain genetics in this respect??

Well then I've got some explaining to do to my husband about my younger daughter's red hair.

[Beautiful sky]

Well then I've got some explaining to do to my husband about my younger daughter's red hair.

So you have dual pair kids in a dual pair relationship; isn't that just beautiful?

That is true, but if I recall correctly from biology, genes don't go that far back (or was it chromosomes??). Anybody here who can explain genetics in this respect??

Too complicated; you can always take a class.

[consentingadult]

Well then I've got some explaining to do to my husband about my younger daughter's red hair.

I wouldn't like to be in your shoes right now

[Gilly]

I'm a perfect mix: EJ from my mom (LSE), NF from my dad (EII).

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Trevor]

I think I could handle having kids of any type, just not Rationals. I think I'm gonna search for a method to avoid this til the time comes.

lobotomy?

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[The Exception]

My dad's parents were both Delta NFs. But really there are 16 types, and if we go back far enough, we can probably find every type in everyone's ancestory.

Also, if you go back far enough you'll find we're all related to each other.

[Galen]

My grandma is LSE and I almost think my grandfather was EII. Most of their kids are pretty delta-ey, although my mom is ISFp so it's not fool-proof. Also my ENTp friend's parents are Se-ESTp and Ni-INFp.

[Existential Potato]

If genetic traits determine socionic type, then it would be interesting to see these same traits in our ancestral predecessors, or at least see how they evolved. This would imply some sort of socionic applicability to animals, or if they are different genes then some sort of gene-based system to do with certain types of animals. The possibilities are enormous, but who is going to be convinced of socionics (and gene pre-determination of type) enough to fund a project to obtain the proof for all this in the first place anyway .

And this is only if genes are the only factor in type. Where all the environment advocators at

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Existential Potato]

And there's an enormous possibility that you're an ILE.

Heh, I wish. I have to say though, I envy the alpha Ti+Ne in the ego block. It's as though you've got Ne for ideas, the Ti for theory creation and foundation, but as a bonus you've got Ne to also check your logic, making theory creation and analyzation much more sound and reasonable. I guess that's why you guys are natural 'heavy researchers' according to wikisocion.

I wonder if I could eventually genetically engineer my babies to make them Alpha...

[Beautiful sky]

Heh, I wish. I have to say though, I envy the alpha Ti+Ne in the ego block. It's as though you've got Ne for ideas, the Ti for theory creation and foundation, but as a bonus you've got Ne to also check your logic, making theory creation and analyzation much more sound and reasonable. I guess that's why you guys are natural 'heavy researchers' according to wikisocion.

I wonder if I could eventually genetically engineer my babies to make them Alpha...

Don't attach that type of value to them; how about INFj's are awsome at law; we kick ass. You want your kids stuck doing research? How about the next chemist ESTp or the next physicist as ESFp? Veterinary doctor at ESFj?

[Trevor]

No. Lobotomy can transform an Irrational into a Rational (some sort of moving vegetable). Irreversible stuff.

Or, alternatively, you can remove their ratio; and voila, irrationals.

[consentingadult]

If genetic traits determine socionic type, then it would be interesting to see these same traits in our ancestral predecessors, or at least see how they evolved. This would imply some sort of socionic applicability to animals, or if they are different genes then some sort of gene-based system to do with certain types of animals. The possibilities are enormous, but who is going to be convinced of socionics (and gene pre-determination of type) enough to fund a project to obtain the proof for all this in the first place anyway .

And this is only if genes are the only factor in type. Where all the environment advocators at

the environment advocators can still conribute: there is a lot, lot more to personality than just psychological type.

[Aiss]

ESE + LII resulted in ILI, possible ESI and some other intutive irrational. So Alphas with little Gammas.

That is true, but if I recall correctly from biology, genes don't go that far back (or was it chromosomes??). Anybody here who can explain genetics in this respect??

The process of creating gametes is called meiosis. You might want to check this out for more details. In general, it's not only that chromosomes are divided into two sets, but DNA is also exchanged between homologue chromosomes, and then there are mutations.

So for example genes located on the same chromosome will usually be inherited together, but not always. You can get any version of the gene your parent had, although some combinations have significantly lower probability than others. You don't get the exact chromosome of your parent, but a crossover of their pair of homologue chromosomes. (X/Y being an exception, I think.)

Gene in itself just codes a protein. Whether it will be produced (gene expression) depends on many other factors. There are different enzymes involved in processes such as hormone synthesis, and then there's varying sensitivity to hormones. What's taught about genetics in schools is mostly related to X/Y chromosomes, which are either-or and simply inherited, or illnesses related to too many or too few chromosomes. These are "easy" examples, and rather exceptions.

The way brain is formed probably depends not only on child's genes, but also on conditions inside mother's womb. This factor isn't insignificant. Even if sociotype is determined mostly by genetics, it's probably still complex enough to allow for any result.

In other words, I doubt it very much that socionics can be clearly related to genetics. And even if it could be, note that it's just a theory. Zoologists constructed phylogenetic trees based on obvious external traits of animals - today many of these are known to be "false relations", in that the species which look similar aren't necessarily closely related. It could turn out that Jungian functions are about as real as phlogiston or ether.

[Blaze]

interesting idea. not sure if it plays out or not...i've heard of many families on this forum where the kids are in a conflicting quadra with their parents, is this because the parents are from different quadras?

my parents are duals LSE & EII

kids: ILE, LII, IEE.

IEE married an EII. LII is about to marry an ESE. i was married to an SLE...now i'm with an IEI. my kids are ESE & ILE.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[The Exception]

Hehe... so what do you think your type is? You must be certainly an internal Ne type - ILE, IEE, EII.

I vote ILE for Mr. Potatohead.

[Suz]

That is true, but if I recall correctly from biology, genes don't go that far back (or was it chromosomes??). Anybody here who can explain genetics in this respect??

Genes go back as far as you can trace them.

OK quick genetics 101 lesson:

There are many different patterns of inheritance, the simplest and most obviously straightforward being Mendelian autosomal dominant and autosomal recessive. For each gene that a person has, it comes in a pair, either the same or of the alternate.

say you're looking at inheriting blue eyes:

Gene A = brown eyes (the dominant phenotype)
Gene a = blue eyes (the recessive phenotype)

Say mom has brown eyes and dad has blue eyes.

Mom's genotype could be AA or Aa (for the dominant gene you only need one of the pair to be that gene, to express that phenotype).

Dad's genotype is aa for sure (recessive phenotype only shows up if both genes are present)

So, if Mom's genotype is AA, there is a 25% chance they will have a kid with blue eyes. If Mom's genotype is Aa, there is a 50% chance their kid will have blue eyes.

There are also such patterns of inheritance as incomplete penetrance (which is more like how skin color is inherited), gene linkage, X-linkage, etc which are way beyond the scope of a rudimentary explanation.

Obviously socionics heritability is a LOT more complicated than the blue eyes scenario, and obviously does not happen by a simple Mendelian autosomal pattern. Heck I'll bet there are a whole bunch of genes involved in expression of each particular sociotype. And I wouldn't be surprised if there is an incomplete penetrance sort of thing involved. Moreover, I do believe that sociotype is multifactorial, and not purely genetic. For one, my identical twin sister and I (who share an identical genome) are pretty obviously different sociotypes.

My mother: likely SEE
My father: not sure, I think SLE
Sister: LII or EII
Me: IEE

[tiny_dancer]

I don't think there's a link.

But to answer your question, of dual couples I know whose kids I am also certain of -

SLE-IEI
Kids: ESE, SEE

SLI-IEE
Kids: IEI, EII

For the rest of them, their kids are either too young to type, or I don't know their kids well enough, or they don't even have kids yet...

[3RainbowSprinkles]

just to add more info, but i have no thoughts on the topic. It has definitly stricken my interest, but there just seems to be no form of similarities.


grandma and grandpa: ESFJ-ISTJ
kids (oldest to youngest): ISFJ, ISTJ, ESTJ, ESTP, ISFJ

mom and dad: ISFJ-ISTP
me: ENFP
my lover: ISTP
our kids: ??? to be seeeeennnn

aunts and uncle: ISFJ-ESTP
kids: ESFP, ESFJ and one is too young

aunt and uncle: ISFJ-ISTJ
kid: ESTJ
(dating an ENFP)


HOWEVER, ive had theories about different parts of the world and common temperaments. It know its such a huge generalization considering all the different types of people there can be and how each type can manifest differently, however if you look at what traits certain regions of the world appreciate--it could be that some temperaments are more common within certain races/cultures than others. I'm chinese, and i'd say that for the chinese people your more likely to find NT's (intellectuals, keeping emotions out of the equation) or SJ's (mostly gamma quadra) because chinese people are all about helping out and helping the 'greater good' of our people.

then, maybe for whites in america it would be something like NF's (those idealistic/creative types) which makes up our demand for super stars and block busters/striving for the hollywood life and SJ's (the whole home on the range) "for liberty and justice for all" keeping safe in the woods type all-american life style.

maybe this plays some sort of role in which traits you may be more likely to end up with because of your race/culture?

<--- this face is so damn cute!

[Slacker]

Thanks for the input, everyone. My thoughts are that it's more complicated than just genetic, or genetic in that way, or something. Like, even if it were genetic, there could be a Delta gene, or an introverted/extraverted gene, or a rational/irrational gene, or an NF gene, or an Ni or Ne gene, or a gene to value a certain IE, etc. Or some combination. Or maybe it's only partially genetic, and partially made up of other factors.

And I don't think there's any way to know anyway, at least not at the moment.

[Beautiful sky]

My grand mother on dad's side is ESTj
My grand father on dad's side is ISTp

All of their kids are either ESTj or ISTp. They had 10.00 and one who died at a young age.

[Aiss]

All of their kids are either ESTj or ISTp. They had 10.00 and one who died at a young age.

Moments like these are exactly what makes me wonder if Maritsa is a bot. Then again, who'd store number of kids using real numbers...

[Slacker]

My grandma and grandpa were ESE/SEI and had 8 kids, all different types.

[Beautiful sky]

Moments like these are exactly what makes me wonder if Maritsa is a bot. Then again, who'd store number of kids using real numbers...

Sorry Aiss; I am not very good at jokes I guess; that was meant to be an economic reflection like they say in the US that average household has 2.53 kids...lol

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Genes go back as far as you can trace them.

OK quick genetics 101 lesson:

There are many different patterns of inheritance, the simplest and most obviously straightforward being Mendelian autosomal dominant and autosomal recessive. For each gene that a person has, it comes in a pair, either the same or of the alternate.

say you're looking at inheriting blue eyes:

Gene A = brown eyes (the dominant phenotype)
Gene a = blue eyes (the recessive phenotype)

Say mom has brown eyes and dad has blue eyes.

Mom's genotype could be AA or Aa (for the dominant gene you only need one of the pair to be that gene, to express that phenotype).

Dad's genotype is aa for sure (recessive phenotype only shows up if both genes are present)

So, if Mom's genotype is AA, there is a 25% chance they will have a kid with blue eyes. If Mom's genotype is Aa, there is a 50% chance their kid will have blue eyes.

There are also such patterns of inheritance as incomplete penetrance (which is more like how skin color is inherited), gene linkage, X-linkage, etc which are way beyond the scope of a rudimentary explanation.

Obviously socionics heritability is a LOT more complicated than the blue eyes scenario, and obviously does not happen by a simple Mendelian autosomal pattern. Heck I'll bet there are a whole bunch of genes involved in expression of each particular sociotype. And I wouldn't be surprised if there is an incomplete penetrance sort of thing involved. Moreover, I do believe that sociotype is multifactorial, and not purely genetic. For one, my identical twin sister and I (who share an identical genome) are pretty obviously different sociotypes.

My mother: likely SEE
My father: not sure, I think SLE
Sister: LII or EII
Me: IEE

Last I checked, there were 16 genes identified with eye colour, probably more now.

Eh, this seems to talk about it some more:

Eye color - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Oh, yeah your right in what you're saying overall i'd say, just thought it would be interesting incase some parents get a fright when babys eye colour don't match.

So yeah, even something like eye colour is complex, who can say how complex when comes to the structure of the brain, likely much much more.

-----------------

Re CA - not sure, i'd need to think some more, eh, well, from shorthand memory, from chromosmal pov, in case of males anyway, Y chromosome analysis is used in 'origin' tests, eg is someone Germanic, Celtic etc. Apparently Y chromosome doesn't change so much, and can even be used to identify a certain common father in from the past (eg Genghis Khan) and others, who due to advantages for various reasons had more opportunity to sow their wild oats. Well, maybe i'll remember or bother to read up on whole scoop of it.

[Suz]

Last I checked, there were 16 genes identified with eye colour, probably more now.

Eh, this seems to talk about it some more:

Eye color - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Oh, yeah your right in what you're saying overall i'd say, just thought it would be interesting incase some parents get a fright when babys eye colour don't match.

So yeah, even something like eye colour is complex, who can say how complex when comes to the structure of the brain, likely much much more.

-----------------

Re CA - not sure, i'd need to think some more, eh, well, from shorthand memory, from chromosmal pov, Y chromosome analysis is used in 'origin' tests, eg is someone Germanic, Celtic etc. Apparently Y chromosome doesn't change so much, and can even be used to identify a certain common father in from the past (eg Genghis Khan) and others, who due to advantages for various reasons had more opportunity to sow their wild oats.

Well sure, i was just using "blue eyes" as a very oversimplified easy-to-understand hypothetical illustration. I am totally not surprised that eye color inheritance is much more complex.