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Thread: The problem of educating new users

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    Default The problem of educating new users.

    We've got a bunch of new extrovert users coming in who aren't content apparently to "read the literature". Uh what do we do about this?

    It doesn't help that Wikisocion got smashed. We lost a ton of introductory information thanks to that.

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    We correct them when they say stuff that's wrong? At least extroverts make up for their unwillingness to study with their willingness to say lots of stuff.



    LII-Ne

    "Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
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    Default Hi!

    Speaking as a brand-spankin-new extrovert user, I highly recommend (nicely) pointing them to the literature that you'd like them to read. For example, I have no idea what "literature" you're even referring to, but I'm pretty likely to read it if you suggest it to me!

    Especially if it has something to do with posting in wrong forums or somesuch. Every message board ahs different established patterns that are not always immediately apparent to newcomers, no matter how intuitive old timers might consider them to be.

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    I am definitely a 7, and most likely an IEE. Stay tuned for further updates.

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    We appoint each one a tutor. I recommend assigning people a tutor who is their supervisor, mirror, or identical to ensure maximum communication ability.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Create a section in the forum focused on informing new users and possibly summarizing the longwinded literature that looks like it will take years of long lonely hours to go over, and even longer to grasp a thorough understanding of. Allow them to ask questions, argue, whatever, interaction would motivate them, and the educated users could correct them as Brilliand said.

    I'm new, not very educated in socionics, and to me trying to read a lot of the suggested literature looks "............ hahaha.... ya... riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. I'll get right on that..." Then as I try reading it, I get bored, and return to the forum to read what other people think. I don't think I'm extroverted, but I know I'd at least find information more interesting coming directly from a person. It is questionable and fallable, but then so are the inventors of the system. Jung himself could only be related to god in that he is now dead.
    Last edited by reclaimpower; 04-27-2010 at 10:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    We've got a bunch of new extrovert users coming in who aren't content apparently to "read the literature". Uh what do we do about this?

    It doesn't help that Wikisocion got smashed. We lost a ton of introductory information thanks to that.
    I have a lot of info at home and have printed almost everything out of wikisocion.

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    These newbies have to wait till Rick publishes his long awaited book

    I started to write 'Socionics for Dummies', but stopped at chapter 1, paragraph 1 when I realized no one would give a damn, let alone spend money on it
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    I have a lot of info at home and have printed almost everything out of wikisocion.
    Do you have the edit histories as well? If you don't, then you don't really have wikisocion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    These newbies have to wait till Rick publishes his long awaited book

    I started to write 'Socionics for Dummies', but stopped at chapter 1, paragraph 1 when I realized no one would give a damn, let alone spend money on it
    Depends on what he writes. I don't think he's going to change minds about socionics. Socionics just isn't notable enough because it doesn't offer enough solutions to practical problems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    We appoint each one a tutor. I recommend assigning people a tutor who is their supervisor, mirror, or identical to ensure maximum communication ability.
    You would be going on new users' self typings though .

    Wikisocion's oddness over the past few months have me coming here for answers instead. Yeah, I hope I don't infect any of you with my ignorance .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Existential Potato View Post
    You would be going on new users' self typings though .

    Wikisocion's oddness over the past few months have me coming here for answers instead. Yeah, I hope I don't infect any of you with my ignorance .
    No certainly not; most people here know as much about socionics in their head as there can be written on any site.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    Socionics just isn't notable enough because it doesn't offer enough solutions to practical problems.
    Socionics by itself isn't, but when complemented by other insights, it actually can. Sometimes it can even be very simple. Example:

    recently my GF had an ESE friend over. She organizes events for a very important dutch organization, which I know to be cramped with Gammas. In recent years, the culture in that organization has shifted to hard core gamma principles, and now this woman no longer functions, in the opinion of her superiors. Because of this, she is stressed out and on sick leave, and now she has to go to some agency for a career test, which implies she does the wrong kind of work.

    As she explained this to me, I said to her: have you considered the option that your current job is actually the perfect job for you, but that you are doing it in the wrong organization?

    There are a lot of people that need to be fixed in some way, but this woman isn't one of them. Using my knowledge of Socionics I was able to get the idea that there was something wrong with her out of her head, which was of some relief to her.

    And this is not the only person I helped using Socionics.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    The main problem with "educating" people on socionics is that its a system of analytical gestalts, not simply defined parameters; the understanding of types, functions, and relations is experiential rather than technical.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Existential Potato View Post
    You would be going on new users' self typings though .
    Sure. If they're wrong, it's their problem.

    For those who are so new to socionics they haven't even considered self-typing themselves, I volunteer to tutor them in the basics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    We appoint each one a tutor. I recommend assigning people a tutor who is their supervisor, mirror, or identical to ensure maximum communication ability.
    That doesn't ensure that each of those three people know what they're talking about or agree on all points.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    Sure. If they're wrong, it's their problem.

    For those who are so new to socionics they haven't even considered self-typing themselves, I volunteer to tutor them in the basics.
    Whoooohoooooo! So I know I'm IEE... but I see several other letters after peoples' types in their sig files. What am I missing, and what test is everyone else taking? 'Cause the ones I've found just say IEE at the end.
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    I am definitely a 7, and most likely an IEE. Stay tuned for further updates.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aixelsyd View Post
    We have a winner.
    I've been here all along.

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    Some people will choose to put their subtype (see Subtype - Wikisocion) in their signature. For instance, IEE can theoretically be an IEE-Ne (IEE-) subtype or IEE-Fi (IEE-) subtype. The most common denotation of subtypes are either of the two ego IM elements for a given type.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tereg View Post
    Some people will choose to put their subtype (see Subtype - Wikisocion) in their signature. For instance, IEE can theoretically be an IEE-Ne (IEE-) subtype or IEE-Fi (IEE-) subtype. The most common denotation of subtypes are either of the two ego IM elements for a given type.
    Awesome! So... how do I find out which one I am?
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    I am definitely a 7, and most likely an IEE. Stay tuned for further updates.

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    I do seem to remember a test someone made that actually gave subtype results. I'll need to search for it to find it though. If I remember correctly, it was actually a decent test.

    Otherwise, it's sort of a self-evaluation based on subtype descriptions that are available.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tereg View Post
    I do seem to remember a test someone made that actually gave subtype results. I'll need to search for it to find it though. If I remember correctly, it was actually a decent test.

    Otherwise, it's sort of a self-evaluation based on subtype descriptions that are available.
    And then there's also the perspective of there not being a subtype, of the current popularized notion of subtypes. To my knowledge, subtypes aren't part of the cannon, and aren't something I personally agree with. Talk about education :wink:

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    Default W00t!

    I believe I have figured it out. I am an IEE-Fi!

    Does that sound like a person getting ready to ambush someone coming around a corner to anyone else, or is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by look.to.the.sky View Post
    And then there's also the perspective of there not being a subtype, of the current popularized notion of subtypes. To my knowledge, subtypes aren't part of the cannon, and aren't something I personally agree with. Talk about education :wink:
    Understandable I can definitely see that being an issue, as I'm sure there are more than two singular subtypes for all IEEs everywhere. After reading the two available, though, I find that I definitely fall hard into one camp and not at all in the other.

    Sigh... so much for being an individual.
    Last edited by GallopingQwerty; 04-28-2010 at 06:52 AM. Reason: didn't realize look.to.the.sky had responded too!
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    I am definitely a 7, and most likely an IEE. Stay tuned for further updates.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    We've got a bunch of new extrovert users coming in who aren't content apparently to "read the literature". Uh what do we do about this?

    It doesn't help that Wikisocion got smashed. We lost a ton of introductory information thanks to that.
    Your like the old professor who shakes his fist at all the young students because they don't read up on the class material.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    We appoint each one a tutor. I recommend assigning people a tutor who is their supervisor, mirror, or identical to ensure maximum communication ability.
    I that idea!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Existential Potato View Post
    You would be going on new users' self typings though .
    .
    Oh true.:frown:

    Perhaps a general list of a consensus of good 16types tutors would be useful.
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    educating is frustrating since everybody thinks he knows best.

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    Educating new users?!?

    I have trouble enough with educating old ones...

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    I have trouble enough with educating old ones...
    educating them in... your magical VI abilities that you never care to explain or provide evidence for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by look.to.the.sky View Post
    And then there's also the perspective of there not being a subtype, of the current popularized notion of subtypes. To my knowledge, subtypes aren't part of the cannon, and aren't something I personally agree with. Talk about education :wink:
    I don't think it matters if you agree or not. We have articles now that describe Gulenko's subtype theory in detail, and behaviors from amongst ourselves that we can attribute to the existence of subtypes. I don't think those are in dispute. Verdict: facts trump opinion, and we now have the facts, like as not.

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    You can see how type interaction plays out in your real life. Just live your life and meet people. You will notice the type playing out in the back of your mind at all times. It really does work. Nobody can teach you anything, you have to do it all yourself. If you learn anything, you are the one that's opening your mind up to accurately comprehending the information, so really the teacher isn't doing anything.

    A "teacher"'s job is that of a life coach or therapist, they are there to help you realize what you want to learn and guide you toward it. You won't learn or retain anything that you don't subjectively want. It will just be forgotten. This is so interesting but just try it out. Have somebody try to teach you something you're not interested in, that BORES YOU to tears. You will retain the egoic psychological ideal way of the teaching but won't be able to actually utilize it to anything, as it doesn't invoke personal passion.

    You also won't be able to morph/judge/compare the information with actual corporeal reality. It will just be lost in a nebulous cloud in your head, and you won't truly understand how this information has a relationship with all other things. Therefore, getting As on tests IS FUCKING POINTLESS.

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    I haven't read through the entire thread, but something I've thought of before from an administrative point of view is having some sort of subforum that is dedicated toward Socionic learning. The idea being that a person who is new to Socionics can go to that forum and get information either in the form of articles, FAQs... basically places or literature that a person can refer to if they are new to Socionics.

    I have this sort of fuzzy idea in my head, but I'm not sure how to make it come to fruition. Is that basically what you think can be used to enhance the learning process at least as far as this forum goes?
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    Descriptions might grasp the subtype better than a test in many cases, but I'm just putting it out there. And I also like the meged subtype descriptions. From www.socionics.org

    IEE


    Advisor terminal (intuitive)

    Very sociable, temperamental, lively person. Initiator of many cases, however, differs a great restlessness and changeability. The man is very creative, but it is scattered and undisciplined. Able to throw out their frustration on the authorities, does not consider the chain of command. On the surface - often having a full rounded shape. The clothing may be demonstrable, bright. sometimes even shrill.



    Advisor of the initial (ethical)

    He sees in people hidden attraction and attachment, prefers to work on a short psychological distance (as opposed to the terminal). He loves to give advice, tends to psychoanalysis, with bets on the manifestation of the people of their positive qualities. It can stand up for others, defending their interests, stand up for themselves is difficult. Externally, more lean and elegant. The clothing would prefer a free style, soft tone.


    Are all of these descriptions still in wikisocion? I think they were better.

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    Interacting with others naturally just allows you to understand the type things in a uhh organic way. You can get a lot of information by reading about it, and it's really good but without putting it into perspective by just, seeing how it plays out in 'real life' you will be like the sheltered dork that did all his homework but was just 'going through the motions' and didn't know what he wanted out of life.

    It's just like, you can read about riding a bike all day. But until you actually try it out, you won't actually understand. Same concept.

    I think both tools are helpful though. Just most people in this society put too much emphasis on 'book knowledge.'

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    Quote Originally Posted by tereg View Post
    I haven't read through the entire thread, but something I've thought of before from an administrative point of view is having some sort of subforum that is dedicated toward Socionic learning. The idea being that a person who is new to Socionics can go to that forum and get information either in the form of articles, FAQs... basically places or literature that a person can refer to if they are new to Socionics.

    I have this sort of fuzzy idea in my head, but I'm not sure how to make it come to fruition. Is that basically what you think can be used to enhance the learning process at least as far as this forum goes?
    A basics topic would have helped me when I first came here, saying things like 'when we say NF we mean this' and 'when people describe types they sometimes use this system, and there are variations like substituting 'x' for a possible function etc etc'.

    At the very least, this would have let me understand half of what you guys were saying

    edit; yeah bullets, people should really interact with people on the forum to better understand the functions, but it's like you're speaking a whole different language when you try to read unknown letter combinations

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    I didn't mean like that. I don't mean have discussions about socionics with people, I mean just talk to people about whatever naturally, and as you socialize understand how the functions are working internally to yourself. And you will like, be fascinated with what you find.

    Just letting reality take its course, the functions come out and play. They are rooted down very subconsciously in our brains. Socioncs is a very internal process, you don't actually have to discuss what's going on or force it, they come out completely on their own via all social exchanges.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Existential Potato View Post
    A basics topic would have helped me when I first came here, saying things like 'when we say NF we mean this' and 'when people describe types they sometimes use this system, and there are variations like substituting 'x' for a possible function etc etc'.

    At the very least, this would have let me understand half of what you guys were saying
    Oh yes, yes, YES! I am by no means a stupid person, but walking into this forum as a brand new person is rather like the moment I went to Barcelona for the first time and realized that most people did not, in fact, speak the Castilian Spanish I'd so painstakingly learned before flying over. What? You mean I'm only going to catch every third word and hope someone's nice enough to slow down and speak English once in a while so I get what they're talking about? Ooooo-kay.

    A good friend asked me to come here, and I'm not sorry I did but oh good lord it's going to take me ages to squeeze in reading the pile of books everyone else seems to have already covered years ago. A small overview, even if it's just a collection of helpful links to specific info (including what the heck all the colored shapes mean), would be absolutely fantastic.

    And it might even slow the flow of idiotic threads I would otherwise start! Maybe.
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    I am definitely a 7, and most likely an IEE. Stay tuned for further updates.

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    Things new users absolutely must know:
    • strong/weak and what it means
    • valued/unvalued


    I'd like to add MBTI to the list but without authority to hammer a position home, it's impossible to overcome resistance of "descriptionalists".

    We need that people be versed in the basic concepts believed in by Augusta's students.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    educating them in... your magical VI abilities that you never care to explain or provide evidence for?
    Yeah, that's exactly what I mean. Some old forum members like labcoat still don't understand the basics of Socionics:

    1.) There is no evidence for socionics at all. It is not science but protoscience which means there is no evidence. If you want evidence socionics is no good for you...
    2.) How should it be possible to provide evidence for my V.I. methods?! I just type people I know in person and look for patterns. Then I use pictures of celebrities as examples. What else should I do? Just learn to use subtypes and you will see...
    3.) What should I explain concerning my V.I. methods?! The explanation goes "I type and look for patterns". Discussing about the types of celebrities is in most cases a pointless exercise. If my typings are right or wrong is not even important, it is meaningless. The celebrities I listed are just examples so that people can see what I mean when talking about a "circular face" or a "rectangular face".

  39. #39
    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    Yeah, that's exactly what I mean. Some old forum members like labcoat still don't understand the basics of Socionics:

    1.) There is no evidence for socionics at all. It is not science but protoscience which means there is no evidence. If you want evidence socionics is no good for you...
    2.) How should it be possible to provide evidence for my V.I. methods?! I just type people I know in person and look for patterns. Then I use pictures of celebrities as examples. What else should I do? Just learn to use subtypes and you will see...
    3.) What should I explain concerning my V.I. methods?! The explanation goes "I type and look for patterns". Discussing about the types of celebrities is in most cases a pointless exercise. If my typings are right or wrong is not even important, it is meaningless. The celebrities I listed are just examples so that people can see what I mean when talking about a "circular face" or a "rectangular face".
    If there is no evidence in socionics, you have no basis for claiming that you are better able to educate others than the other way around. You have just admitted that you are a dogmatist.

  40. #40
    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    Yeah, that's exactly what I mean. Some old forum members like labcoat still don't understand the basics of Socionics:

    1.) There is no evidence for socionics at all. It is not science but protoscience which means there is no evidence. If you want evidence socionics is no good for you...
    2.) How should it be possible to provide evidence for my V.I. methods?! I just type people I know in person and look for patterns. Then I use pictures of celebrities as examples. What else should I do? Just learn to use subtypes and you will see...3.) What should I explain concerning my V.I. methods?! The explanation goes "I type and look for patterns". Discussing about the types of celebrities is in most cases a pointless exercise. If my typings are right or wrong is not even important, it is meaningless. The celebrities I listed are just examples so that people can see what I mean when talking about a "circular face" or a "rectangular face".
    Do what I am doing now; one person VI's a group of college students; another person assesses exams, writen one.

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