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Thread: Combining Reinin dichotomies

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    Default Combining Reinin dichotomies

    An INTj can be defined by using Jungian dichotomies:
    INTj = introverted*intuitive*thinking*judging.

    Using Reinin dichotomies there are several other possibilities of defining an INTj:
    INTj = farsighted*obstinate*static*result
    INTj = merry*judicious*result*strategic

    I wonder how many possible definitions there are. To answer this question we must know which dichotmies are depending on each other. I found 13 dependencies:

    farsighted * obstinate = democratic
    farsighted * static = strategic
    farsighted * emotivist = asking
    farsighted * merry = result
    obstinate * static = emotivist
    obstinate * strategic = asking
    obstinate * judicious = result
    static * democratic = asking
    static * negativist = result
    democratic * strategic = emotivist
    democratic * judicious = merry
    strategic * negativist = merry
    emotivist * negativist = judicious

    Questions:
    1.) Are combinations missing or wrong?
    2.) What is the mathematical reason for the number 13?
    3.) Does this have any use?

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    An INTj can be defined by using Jungian dichotomies:
    INTj = introverted*intuitive*thinking*judging.

    Using Reinin dichotomies there are several other possibilities of defining an INTj:
    INTj = farsighted*obstinate*static*result
    INTj = merry*judicious*result*strategic

    I wonder how many possible definitions there are. To answer this question we must know which dichotmies are depending on each other. I found 13 dependencies:

    farsighted * obstinate = democratic
    farsighted * static = strategic
    farsighted * emotivist = asking
    farsighted * merry = result
    obstinate * static = emotivist
    obstinate * strategic = asking
    obstinate * judicious = result
    static * democratic = asking
    static * negativist = result
    democratic * strategic = emotivist
    democratic * judicious = merry
    strategic * negativist = merry
    emotivist * negativist = judicious

    Questions:
    1.) Are combinations missing or wrong?
    2.) What is the mathematical reason for the number 13?
    3.) Does this have any use?
    You're missing a lot of it. The way that everything reinin work is logical equality and XOR logic.

    Look at the wiki entry for the explaination.

    You have 4 tiers of dichotomies.
    1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th.
    0th Tier = Type
    1. (null/nonnull)
    1st Tier = Jungian Foundation
    2. E (extroversion/introversion)
    3. N (intuitive/sensing)
    4. T (logical/ethical)
    5. P (irrational/rational)
    2nd Tier
    6. EN (carefree/farsighted)
    7. ET (obstinate/compliant)
    8. EP (static/dynamic)
    9. NT (aristocratic/democratic)
    10. NP (tactical/strategic)
    11. TP (constructivist/emotivist)
    3rd Tier
    12. ENT (positivist/negativist)
    13. ENP (reasonable/resolute)
    14. ETP (subjectivist/objectivist)
    15. NTP (process/result)
    4th Tier
    16. ENTP (questioner/declarer)

    Reinin dichotomies - Wikisocion

    So take carefree and farsighted and the math would be.
    EN or IS = Carefree
    ES or IN = Farsighted

    Mathmatically this would be
    EN = 0 XOR 0 = 0
    IS = 1 XOR 1 = 0

    ES = 0 XOR 1 = 1
    IN = 1 XOR 0 = 1

    I hope this make things clearer for you.

    Any 4 non-colliding reinin dichotomy can represent a type because something like.

    ENT is simply EN * T.

    So Carefree and Farsighted * Logical and Ethical = Positivist and Negativist.

    So if someone is Positives or Negativist.
    They are
    Carefree + T = Positivist
    Farsighted + F = Positivist

    Carefree + F = Negativist
    Farsighted + T = Negativist

    Also the notation you see is 0 based so
    ENTP = 0000
    ISFJ = 1111

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    You're missing a lot of it. The way that everything reinin work is logical equality and XOR logic.
    I'm aware of that, of course.

    When I write
    farsighted*obstinate=democratic
    I could also write
    carefree/farsighted*yielding/obstinate=democratic/aristocratic
    or to make it more obvious
    carefree*yielding=democratic,
    farsighted*obstinate=democratic,
    carefree*obstinate=aristocratic,
    farsighted*yielding=aristocratic
    .

    I thought that was obvious. So the question is not how the Reinin dichotomies work.

    Nevertheless, your explanation is good so you are certainly able to think about the questions I ask in the OP...
    Last edited by JohnDo; 04-26-2010 at 08:43 PM.

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    I'm aware of that, of course.

    When I write
    farsighted*obstinate=democratic
    I could also write
    carefree/farsighted*yielding/obstinate=democratic/aristocratic
    or to make it more obvious
    carefree*yielding=democratic,
    farsighted*obstinate=democratic,
    carefree*obstinate=aristocratic,
    farsighted*yielding=aristocratic
    .

    I thought that was obvious. So the question is not how the Reinin dichotomies work.

    Nevertheless, your explanation is good so you are certainly able to think about the questions I ask in the OP...
    Sounds like a math problem... and it's pointless if you don't also include the 1st tier dichotomies.

    It's some sort of factorial/combination problem likely. I'll do some research since I haven't done this sort of math for a bit.

    It's probably something like this...

    You can pick any of the 15 dichotomies initially, after that you can pick 14, at this point you can only pick from two more on the list because all the other one will be redundant. The last dichotomy will be only a single one.

    So 15 * 14 * 2 * 1 = 420. I'm not sure I'm right, but it's something like this the solution, or it could be more complex.
    Last edited by mu4; 04-26-2010 at 09:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    Sounds like a math problem... and it's pointless if you don't also include the 1st tier dichotomies.
    Good point. Might be true...

    farsighted * logical = negativist
    farsighted * rational = judicious
    farsighted * obstinate = democratic
    farsighted * static = strategic
    farsighted * emotivist = asking
    farsighted * merry = result
    obstinate * intuitive = negativist
    obstinate * rational = merry
    obstinate * static = emotivist
    obstinate * strategic = asking
    obstinate * judicious = result
    static * intuitive = judicious
    static * logical = merry
    static * democratic = asking
    static * negativist = result
    democratic * introverted = negativist
    democratic * rational = result
    democratic * strategic = emotivist
    democratic * judicious = merry
    strategic * introverted = judicious
    strategic * logical = result
    strategic * negativist = merry
    emotivist * introverted = merry
    emotivist * intuitive = result
    emotivist * negativist = judicious
    merry * intuitive = asking
    judicious * logical = asking
    negativist * rational = asking
    result * introverted = asking

    So if I made no mistake there are 29 dependencies + the 11 original ones = 40.

    Explanations...?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    You can pick any of the 15 dichotomies initially, after that you can pick 14, at this point you can only pick from two more on the list because all the other one will be redundant. The last dichotomy will be only a single one.

    So 15 * 14 * 2 * 1 = 420. I'm not sure I'm right, but it's something like this the solution, or it could be more complex.
    No, it is much more complicated. If you pick farsighted first you can't pick introverted or intuitive anymore: IN*I makes no sense...

    The last dichotomy is not fix, either:
    INTj = farsighted*obstinate*static*result
    INTj = farsighted*obstinate*static*merry

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    I wonder how many possible definitions there are.
    product(16-2^x, for x=0 to 3)/4! = 15*14*12*8/24 = 840 possible definitions

    That's including the first-tier dichotomies, though.



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    i'll tear down the sky Mattie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    An INTj can be defined by using Jungian dichotomies:
    INTj = introverted*intuitive*thinking*judging.
    I don't think this is completely accurate, but we've already had this discussion. Just for the sake of understanding where each other is coming from, I would say that type is better defined as in the leading function and in the creative, taking into account the rest of the IE placements that occur because of these first two's positions. This might include N and T but not necessarily I and J.


    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    3.) Does this have any use?
    It's just more shorthand for figuring out or categorizing types. These are qualities that are taken out of context, and when assembled, do not imply its original context. So something like this might be useful to gain an idea of how the types are alike and different in certain aspects, but that's about it...
    Last edited by Mattie; 04-26-2010 at 10:13 PM.

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    Perhaps with should replace "defined" with "identified." We are counting the ways to identify a type using different combinations of Reinin dichotomies.

    Now for an explanation of my previous post:

    If we include the null dichotomy, there are a total of 16 dichotomies, one of which (the null dichotomy) is automatically redundant - that is, with 0 base dichotomies, we can derive 1 Reinin dichotomy. With 1 base dichotomy, we can derive 2 Reinin dichotomies (null and that one dichotomy); with 2 base, we can derive 4. The dichotomies that are not yet redundant are all of the 16 that have not yet been derived. Thus, the number of non-redundant dichotomies is (16-2^(number of base dichotomies)). That's 8 dichotomies to choose from when choosing your 4th dichotomy.

    Now, NIjT for INTj isn't really a different system, it's just rearranged. We need to account for this by dividing by the number of ways to rearrange 4 letters, which is 4 factorial, or 24.



    LII-Ne

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    No, it is much more complicated. If you pick farsighted first you can't pick introverted or intuitive anymore: IN*I makes no sense...
    The last dichotomy is not fix, either:
    INTj = farsighted*obstinate*static*result
    INTj = farsighted*obstinate*static*merry
    You can, but you can't pick the both of them together.

    You can pick Farsighted and Intuitive, but you can't pick farsighted intuitive and introverted together.

    Because Farsighted and Intuitive means the same as Introverted Intuitive.

    But you can pick both of those together, just the third and others are excluded at this point.

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    product(16-2^x, for x=0 to 3)/4! = 15*14*12*8/24 = 840 possible definitions

    That's including the first-tier dichotomies, though.

    I think this is right.
    Thanks for the math.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    I think picking the 2nd dichotomy, doesn't exclude all but to 2 of them but all but 4 of them.
    If I pick E/I and N/S as my first two dichotomies, which 4 remain?

    If E/I, N/S and T/F are my first three dichotomies, which 1 other one is the only one left? j/p? Static/Dynamic?



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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    If I pick E/I and N/S as my first two dichotomies, which 4 remain?

    If E/I, N/S and T/F are my first three dichotomies, which 1 other one is the only one left? j/p? Static/Dynamic?
    I think I was wrong there too, still trying to figure it out the other way. I was in the ballpark(combination/factorial), just didn't know the formula off the top of my head.

    I have a problem in math where I usually have to derive the formula rather then memorize it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    I think I was wrong there too, still trying to figure it out the other way. I was in the ballpark(combination/factorial), just didn't know the formula off the top of my head.

    I have a problem in math where I usually have to derive the formula rather then memorize it.
    I provided an explanation in the last post of the previous page, if that helps.



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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    I provided an explanation in the last post of the previous page, if that helps.
    Got it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    You can, but you can't pick the both of them together.

    You can pick Farsighted and Intuitive, but you can't pick farsighted intuitive and introverted together.
    You are right. farsighted*introverted=intuitive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    product(16-2^x, for x=0 to 3)/4! = 15*14*12*8/24 = 840 possible definitions

    That's including the first-tier dichotomies, though.
    Yes, that's correct I think...

    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    Now for an explanation of my previous post:

    If we include the null dichotomy, there are a total of 16 dichotomies, one of which (the null dichotomy) is automatically redundant - that is, with 0 base dichotomies, we can derive 1 Reinin dichotomy. With 1 base dichotomy, we can derive 2 Reinin dichotomies (null and that one dichotomy); with 2 base, we can derive 4. The dichotomies that are not yet redundant are all of the 16 that have not yet been derived. Thus, the number of non-redundant dichotomies is (16-2^(number of base dichotomies)). That's 8 dichotomies to choose from when choosing your 4th dichotomy.
    Interesting. There is even a much easier way to explain it without null/nonnull:

    First we pick one of the 15 dichotomies. Then we pick one of the remaining 14. One dichotomy can be derived from them so there are only 12 possibilities for the third dichotomy. With these 3 dichotomies we can derive 4. So 15-3-4=8 possibilities for the fourth dichotomy.

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    I thought it was more complicated. Nevertheless, let's see how to derive a dichotomy from two others...

    Every dichotomy can be derived from 7 pairs of 2 dichotomies. 7*15 / 3 = 35

    farsighted * introverted = intuitive
    farsighted * logical = negativist
    farsighted * rational = judicious
    farsighted * obstinate = democratic
    farsighted * static = strategic
    farsighted * emotivist = asking
    farsighted * merry = result
    obstinate * introverted = logical
    obstinate * intuitive = negativist
    obstinate * rational = merry
    obstinate * static = emotivist
    obstinate * strategic = asking
    obstinate * judicious = result
    static * introverted = rational
    static * intuitive = judicious
    static * logical = merry
    static * democratic = asking
    static * negativist = result
    democratic * intuitive = logical
    democratic * introverted = negativist
    democratic * rational = result
    democratic * strategic = emotivist
    democratic * judicious = merry
    strategic * intuitive = rational
    strategic * introverted = judicious
    strategic * logical = result
    strategic * negativist = merry
    emotivist * logical = rational
    emotivist * introverted = merry
    emotivist * intuitive = result
    emotivist * negativist = judicious
    merry * intuitive = asking
    judicious * logical = asking
    negativist * rational = asking
    result * introverted = asking

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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    3.) Does this have any use?
    no.

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