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Thread: Gun Control Wisdom

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Default Gun Control Wisdom

    From our good friend Toby Ziegler.



    "... if you combine the populations of Great Britain, France, German, Japan, Switzerland, Sweden Denmark and Australia, you'll get a population roughly the size of the United States. We had 32,000 gun deaths last year. They had 112. You think it's because Americans are more homicidal by nature or do you think it's because those guys have gun control laws?"
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    I wonder how many of those gun deaths were self-defense?



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    "Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    In my opinion, guns are irrelevent to crime. There's always been crime throughout history, sometimes at greater levels than our culture, and sometimes at lesser levels. The real factor behind crime levels (including murder) is the level of order present in a society, and how effectively that order is maintained (whether by law enforcement, social norms, etc.).

    All guns do is remove brute force from the equation, by making killing a person a matter of point-and-click, thereby removing the advantages that strong men once had over weaker men. Whether or not crimes are committed is still a matter of whether any negative consequences of committing the crime are immediate, unpleasant, and inescapable, or distant, mild, and easily avoidable.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Most gun deaths in the US are suicides.

    -insert obligatory "correlation does not imply causation" line here-

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    whatever, Americans just suck at dodging bullets.
    asd

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    Snomunegot munenori2's Avatar
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    Or we aim better.
    Moonlight will fall
    Winter will end
    Harvest will come
    Your heart will mend

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    Actually, I think Americans /are/ more homicidal by nature.

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    the flying pig Capitalist Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MatthewZ View Post
    -insert obligatory "correlation does not imply causation" line here-

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    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    when you see the booty Galen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Say View Post
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

    http://forum.socionix.com/
    It's pretty cool

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    "... if you combine the populations of Great Britain, France, German, Japan, Switzerland, Sweden Denmark and Australia, you'll get a population roughly the size of the United States. We had 32,000 gun deaths last year. They had 112. You think it's because Americans are more homicidal by nature or do you think it's because those guys have gun control laws?"
    How many of those deaths were in inner cities and committed with illegal guns? America has a huge problem with inner city gang violence, but the vast majority of the rest of the country is very safe. Towns with guns typically have very low crime rates.

    Also, why the fuck would you ever let your government disarm you? Are you fucking insane?

    ALSO, I don't believe those numbers. Especially not in Switzerland, where a huge number of people own assault rifles.

    ALSO, do you grasp how stupid it is to include deaths committed with illegal guns in the numbers of American gun deaths? If it's illegal, that means that banning guns won't solve the fucking problem, since the GUN WAS PURCHASED ILLEGALLY i.e. brought into the country by smugglers and sold on the black market. Why do people not INSTANTLY see this? Why do I have to explain it EVERY FUCKING TIME?

    (Not calling you stupid, btw. I just get pissed off by hearing this same argument over and over)
    Last edited by discojoe; 04-26-2010 at 04:07 PM.

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    lol, the title should read "Biased Gun Control Wisdom." There will always be people for and against gun ownership... The argument will always be able to be spun how each side wants it to be... bleh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinocchio View Post
    discojoe: hand over your guns to the government and be a good citizen. You're almost a murderer.
    I'm actually getting a concealed carry permit in a couple of months.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinocchio View Post
    See your mugshot on the news.
    Florida actually has pretty lenient gun laws regarding self defense. I doubt anything I do will result in my being arrested.

    In any case, stfu with your socialistic nonsense, as if there is any rational wisdom in giving total power to the state.

    "How to Ruin an Economy and Turn it into a Police State," by the Alpha Quadra.

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    I've carried for nearly 8 years now and nobody I know has ever seen my firearm other than when I'm at home and put it away, or I've actually been out shooting. This is pretty much the case with 99.9% of the people who have concealed weapons permits. It's only the idiots who don't know shit about firearms and think it's cool to be "strapped" who end up doing stupid or illegal shit most of the time.

    "How to Ruin an Economy and Turn it into a Police State," by the Alpha Quadra.
    *not all Alphas fwiw.

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    the flying pig Capitalist Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    "How to Ruin an Economy and Turn it into a Police State," by the Alpha Quadra.
    a/k/a Das Kapital and the Communist Manifesto.

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    Last I checked Mao, Lenin, Stalin, Hitler and Caesar Augustus weren't Alphas and Adam Smith was certainly ILE.
    You can do anything with a bayonet except sit on it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    Last I checked Mao, Lenin, Stalin, Hitler and Caesar Augustus weren't Alphas and Adam Smith was certainly ILE.
    Missed Hitler is ENTp type...
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 04-28-2010 at 04:39 AM.

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    the flying pig Capitalist Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    Last I checked Mao, Lenin, Stalin, Hitler and Caesar Augustus weren't Alphas and Adam Smith was certainly ILE.
    Marx was, though. And I've heard ENFj for Hitler and Stalin before. Also, Adam Smith was a plagiarist and I don't care for anything that illegitimate "father" has to say. Richard Cantillon is a much more original author of the same era, IMHO, and a whole generation sooner than Smith.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Say View Post
    Marx was, though. And I've heard ENFj for Hitler and Stalin before. Also, Adam Smith was a plagiarist and I don't care for anything that illegitimate "father" has to say. Richard Cantillon is a much more original author of the same era, IMHO, and a whole generation sooner than Smith.
    What are you getting at? My point was that the Alpha quadra (all quadras if you care to generalize) isn't exclusively tied to one particular ideology.
    You can do anything with a bayonet except sit on it.

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    the flying pig Capitalist Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    What are you getting at? My point was that the Alpha quadra (all quadras if you care to generalize) isn't exclusively tied to one particular ideology.
    I agree, and I'm sure discojoe would, too. I took his post as a joke. On the other hand, if we did care to generalize, one could say that collectivism seems to appeal to Alphas and Deltas whereas individualism would appeal more to the remainder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Say View Post
    I agree, and I'm sure discojoe would, too. I took his post as a joke. On the other hand, if we did care to generalize, one could say that collectivism seems to appeal to Alphas and Deltas whereas individualism would appeal more to the remainder.
    You're free to believe that I'm either lying, not self aware or do not understand the nature of collectivism, but I personally despise any form of collectivism, forced or otherwise. So I disagree with your premise.
    You can do anything with a bayonet except sit on it.

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    the flying pig Capitalist Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    You're free to believe that I'm either lying, not self aware or do not understand the nature of collectivism, but I personally despise any form of collectivism, forced or otherwise. So I disagree with your premise.
    I believe you. It was never my premise that it's a rule for X type to adhere to Y philosophy, I thought we were speaking in generalities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Say View Post
    I believe you. It was never my premise that it's a rule for X type to adhere to Y philosophy, I thought we were speaking in generalities.
    Ok.
    You can do anything with a bayonet except sit on it.

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    the flying pig Capitalist Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    Ok.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Say View Post
    I agree, and I'm sure discojoe would, too. I took his post as a joke. On the other hand, if we did care to generalize, one could say that collectivism seems to appeal to Alphas and Deltas whereas individualism would appeal more to the remainder.
    Wasn't Thomas Jefferson like, the quintessential LII? Alpha NTs can reason themselves into almost any position.

    Intuitively, though, I would say that collectivism = aristocractic (Beta/Delta), and individualism = democratic (Alpha/Gamma).
    Quaero Veritas.

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    the flying pig Capitalist Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    Intuitively, though, I would say that collectivism = aristocractic (Beta/Delta), and individualism = democratic (Alpha/Gamma).
    Yeah, that makes more sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Say View Post
    You can do anything with a bayonet except sit on it.

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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Say View Post
    Yeah, that makes more sense.
    I would say it's something like this:

    Alpha = Libertarian (Government should be limited, so I can do as I please. Social issues are my personal business.)
    Beta = Statist (Government should be powerful, to create an ideal society for our people. Social issues should be determined by the group.)
    Gamma = Capitalist (Government should be powerful, to promote a free market where I can succeed. Social issues are my personal business.)
    Delta = Populist (Government should be limited, so our people can do as we please. Social issues should be determined by the group.)

    [Edit: of course, not everyone in a quadra will have these beliefs, since political beliefs are strongly influenced by upbringing and culture, but quadra members should display at least some leanings or tendencies toward these positions.]
    Last edited by Krig the Viking; 04-28-2010 at 06:28 AM.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    I'm a libertarian individualist. Collectivism is a prime cause of many evils throughout human history.

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    I tend to think of the various political tendencies as survival strategies for different political situations. Alpha Libertarian government is great during peacetimes, but war necessitates strong central planning and national unity, i.e., Beta Statism. Similarly, Gamma Big-Business Capitalism is great for when the nation is rich, but Delta Populist strategies become more necessary in times when survival is in question.

    Interestingly, the initial political division in America seems to have been quite clearly between Alpha Libertarians (the Jeffersonians) and Gamma Business Capitalists (the Hamiltonians), having just fought a major Democrat vs. Aristocrat war (literally).
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Capitalism is even better for a poor nation than a rich nation.

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    My thinking on this is heavily influenced by Walter Russel Meade's political theory (link).

    In my opinion:

    Jeffersonian = Alpha
    Wilsonian = Beta
    Hamiltonian = Gamma
    Jacksonian = Delta
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    My thinking on this is heavily influenced by Walter Russel Meade's political theory (link).

    In my opinion:

    Jeffersonian = Alpha
    Wilsonian = Beta
    Hamiltonian = Gamma
    Jacksonian = Delta

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    Quote Originally Posted by Say View Post
    Of the several different things you could be trying to say with that vomiting icon, I am incapable of determining which one you intend.
    Quaero Veritas.

  38. #38
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    Thats actually a very interesting argument, but to prove anything substantial you'de have to look at the breakdown, and explore the reasons why in more depth.

    Honestly I don't think gun control laws are responsible for increased gun related deaths, nor do I think Americans are more homicidal (maybe a little bit but not to that extreme).

    I think the true cause for this statistic is probably something else.

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    the flying pig Capitalist Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    Of the several different things you could be trying to say with that vomiting icon, I am incapable of determining which one you intend.
    Mostly to that arbitrary distinction of socio-political philosophies, and especially as they are limited to US politics. But to each their own. . .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Say View Post
    Mostly to that arbitrary distinction of socio-political philosophies, and especially as they are limited to US politics. But to each their own. . .
    It's certainly a distinction of socio-political philosophies, but what makes you say it's an arbitrary one?
    Quaero Veritas.

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