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Thread: INTj political leaders

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    Default INTj political leaders

    I just remembered that there are two very likely INTj political leaders in the public eye these days - besides Vladimir Putin, whom Russian socionists appear to type as INTj.


    Angela Merkel, German Chancellor - not so sure but I think INTj is very likely.





    Thabo Mbeki, President of South Africa - I have little doubt that he is an INTj.







    Any comments?
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Not Al Gore.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    Gore is ENTJ.

    None of those guys/gals look INTJ. Rudy Guiliani is a good example of an INTJ though: taking charge when everybody else is running for the hills, heh. The composed figure stepping out of the shadows.

    Too bad he's Republican.

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    I have not based my typing of Merkel or Mbeki on their looks.

    I can make a very good case for Mbeki as INTj based on his life and traits.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Al Gore, Angela Merkel, Vladimir Putin (and his right hand Sergei Ivanov, the minister of defence), late Francois Mitterand. No idea about Tabo Mbeki, I know noting about him.
    www.socioniko.net is no longer my site.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dmitri Lytov
    Al Gore, Angela Merkel, Vladimir Putin (and his right hand Sergei Ivanov, the minister of defence), late Francois Mitterand. No idea about Tabo Mbeki, I know noting about him.
    That's increduous. Putin is clearly psychotic.

    Al Gore is so ENTJ.... Only an ENTJ would have had so many credibility issues. Anyone who tries to make a science out of their personal relations with the people near and dear to them could only be an ENTJ.

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    Intj leader: Yesterday I cracked a hacking game online! omg! I havent showered in 50 days! I have no smell left in my left nostril because I once got to close to my armpit!

    I read my acne was going to get removed if I sat closer to the screen! the only thing happened was that my eyes burnt away! <- AND THAT'S THE STORY OF HAVE ALL THE INTJS HAVE GLASSES! <-- GEEKWARNING!
    is like a wet kiss on the cheek and a warm hug by a cute smiling girl.
    is the confetti shots on your birthday party with all your friends.
    is a way to completely rip apart the face of god and stare directly at the naked universe.
    is like over here and then over there and they are all connected and I am on amphetamine.

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    That's increduous. Putin is clearly psychotic.
    Can you please explain?

    Al Gore is so ENTJ.... Only an ENTJ would have had so many credibility issues. Anyone who tries to make a science out of their personal relations with the people near and dear to them could only be an ENTJ.
    No, it's a characteristic trait of Analysts (LII). As for Enterprisers (LIE), their thinking is rather business-like than scientific. They think in terms of processes, not "objective truth".
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    If Al Gore is INTj, and Bill Clinton, ESFp, that is interesting.

    Hillary Clinton seems ISTj to me, making her Bill's supervisor which makes sense.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    To me, Hillary Clinton seems to be ESTP, and her housebond, Bill Clinton, either ESFj or ISFp.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dmitri Lytov
    That's increduous. Putin is clearly psychotic.
    Can you please explain?

    Al Gore is so ENTJ.... Only an ENTJ would have had so many credibility issues. Anyone who tries to make a science out of their personal relations with the people near and dear to them could only be an ENTJ.
    No, it's a characteristic trait of Analysts (LII). As for Enterprisers (LIE), their thinking is rather business-like than scientific. They think in terms of processes, not "objective truth".
    Sure. When they are young. But your "Model-A" doesn't describe the effects of individuation: the sustained emergence of unconscious functions into consciousness. This process emerges as a consequence of changes in the biological processes that sustain psychological functions, and it always happens at quarter-intervals of a person's psychological life. (25%, 50%, 75%, 100%) ENTJs Gore's age have learned to think inwardly about people's motivations. Gore knows who is on his side and who isn't, and he isn't afraid to be a face for the popular causes he believes in. However, politics is a matter of imprecision and guessing for him, because he doesn't perceive the fundamental political state of the nation like Clinton does. To Clinton the story of his times is replayed in every person he meets; Gore, being a J, is likely to miss the rich filling for the frosting. He sees the form, but he can't quite get the fundamental message. This is a trait I've perceived in many ENTJs, even on this forum. They try to rehearse processes of communication, and phrases, to try to get on the good side of as many people as possible. If the people they are with like them, no problem. If they are on the fence, the right phrase may swing them. If they are against the ENTJ... then it won't matter if the ENTJ gets the people on the fence, because the majority will rule in an argument. An INTJ won't bother with this stuff: they'll say "this is the way it is, and if you don't agree with me, you are stupid." Now they might not say it aloud, but they will adhere to this principle and not bend over backward to sway the middle view in a pinch, preferring to go down with their ship of principles if that's the way it must be. Gore didn't say, "We should count the votes across Florida because it's the principled thing to do". No, instead he tried to stack the deck, and look what happened. Had he tried to count the votes across Florida, Bush might never have become president.

    Hillary an ESTP? As if, she's an ENTJ. SOLID ENTJ.

    As for Putin, yes, he is psychotic. ESxx, to be precise. Compare him to Jung's description of the Extrovered Sensor type. Yes, I'm afraid you have a "nut", if you pardon the expression, at the helm of your nation. If you pay attention, you'll find that the relations between the United States and his administration these days follow the relation pattern for ESxx with any extroverted sensory type. (consider Bush is an ESTP) This is the proxy relation: the one acts as a proxy for the other. ...Actually, I'll get back to you on this one... but think on it. The answers may surprise both of us.

    But as for Putin's behavior as an ESxx, a logical person wouldn't try to roll-back democratic reforms, or jail political opponents, or seize control, bit-by-bit, of the media. A feeling person would be conscious of the effects of these efforts on people's emotional states. He doesn't seem to care. Too, he appears to be a genius: nothing is stopping him from carrying out his "reforms" in Russia. Resistance exists, that we in other nations can clearly deduce. However, it finds itself unable to effectively organize itself. Given that the resistance must consist of both feeling and thinking people, it must be a fundamental characteristic of Putin that allows him evade their efforts to trap him or discredit him. Seeing the world in terms of archetypal constructs, as opposed to symbols or forms, would allow him to percieve anything that might be perceived by anybody as a "silver bullet" to his rule well before it could be recognized for what it could be and aimed at him. It will undoubtably be a person with corresponding powers--probably an intuitive genius--who is the face of Putin's downfall.

    I suspect that Putin's ascent reflects the existence of unreasonable demands on Russia to adapt to Western culture without the according respect by the West for its own. Consider the rise of Saddam Hussein in Iraq, and Hitler in Germany, under similar circumstances. The rise of Putin's antithesis will correspond to a change of behavior by the West.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dmitri Lytov
    To me, Hillary Clinton seems to be ESTP, and her housebond, Bill Clinton, either ESFj or ISFp.
    I think I can see your reasoning about Bill Clinton, and rather than and . That makes sense, but I have problem seeing him as ISFp or ESFj in his overall behavior.

    My reason for thinking that Hillary is ISTj rather than ESTp is that she's been described as very cold on a personal level, even with her daughter. She's not playful.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by Dmitri Lytov
    To me, Hillary Clinton seems to be ESTP, and her housebond, Bill Clinton, either ESFj or ISFp.
    I think I can see your reasoning about Bill Clinton, and rather than and . That makes sense, but I have problem seeing him as ISFp or ESFj in his overall behavior.

    My reason for thinking that Hillary is ISTj rather than ESTp is that she's been described as very cold on a personal level, even with her daughter. She's not playful.
    Intuitive subtype ENTJs have a tendency to appear cold hearted.

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    If any thing I'd say logical subtype is more cold (sensing>feeling). And I would agree that Hillary seems ENTJ to me.
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    tcaudillg, your criteria of socionic types of politicians are non-socionic, but rather stereotypical (NT are good, SF are bad, etc.) and, frankly speaking, sometimes illogical. For example you write:

    a logical person wouldn't try to roll-back democratic reforms, or jail political opponents, or seize control, bit-by-bit, of the media
    What about Joseph Stalin or Harry Sergueyevich Truman? They were both T, and even more, TJ.

    The way you describe Russia seems strange, very far from what we Russians see here. Thanks God you did not write about white bears walking down Russian streets (in fact many of American movies show Russia in such a way that Russians do not recognize themselves - who in the world are those bastards who write movie scripts?). If you want to discuss Russian policy, let's open a different topic in a non-socionic section of this forum.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dmitri Lytov
    tcaudillg, your criteria of socionic types of politicians are non-socionic, but rather stereotypical (NT are good, SF are bad, etc.) and, frankly speaking, sometimes illogical. For example you write:

    a logical person wouldn't try to roll-back democratic reforms, or jail political opponents, or seize control, bit-by-bit, of the media
    What about Joseph Stalin or Harry Sergueyevich Truman? They were both T, and even more, TJ.

    The way you describe Russia seems strange, very far from what we Russians see here. Thanks God you did not write about white bears walking down Russian streets (in fact many of American movies show Russia in such a way that Russians do not recognize themselves - who in the world are those bastards who write movie scripts?). If you want to discuss Russian policy, let's open a different topic in a non-socionic section of this forum.
    I'd love to discuss Russian policy. It bewilders us in the West to no end. Please open a thread yourself to state your view. I'm not sure on what context to open one myself, because I don't understand Russia.

    Ah, Stalin... very undifferentiated. Very, very much so. Would a TJ think so frankly about killing people? I read what he said and I am really surprised and horrified at the same time.... I'd call him an "Overlord" to whom only the superego block was differentiated, determined to be top dog. Not a TJ.

    SF bad? Not at all. NT good? No better than SF. Clinton? My fav politician. Harry Truman? A good one by my standards. (although he seems ISTP to me)

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    I'd love to discuss Russian policy. It bewilders us in the West to no end. Please open a thread yourself to state your view. I'm not sure on what context to open one myself, because I don't understand Russia.

    Ah, Stalin... very undifferentiated. Very, very much so. Would a TJ think so frankly about killing people? I read what he said and I am really surprised and horrified at the same time.... I'd call him an "Overlord" to whom only the superego block was differentiated, determined to be top dog. Not a TJ.

    SF bad? Not at all. NT good? No better than SF. Clinton? My fav politician. Harry Truman? A good one by my standards. (although he seems ISTP to me)

    I think that your main problem is perceiving of your cultural patterns as they are something "natural", and all thing that different from these patterns you're defining as a "madness".
    I think this is a common type of thinking for ISTJ's. Stalin also defined all the peaple whose resisted to the Soviet state as "nuts". So, how a logical type can care of them? He can try to "cure" them by "labour therapy" in Gulag, or if this way dosn't work, he can simply kill them. (By the way, the second method is more logical becose of it's easiness and cheapness).
    May be your difficults in identification of Stalin type could be explained by the similarity of your thinking :wink: ?
    I would advise to you, for better understanding of Putin politics, to understand first the American politics in Iraq and Afganistan. And what about Vietnam? I surmise, may be Veitnam peaple were not sufficient democratical, so they were nuts, so it was not another choice for American solders expect of humanistic killing them? Or may be these solders were nuts? And if them realy were nuts, so why there so many nuts in so democratical and civil state like USA? :8*
    Stop thinking about youself as though you're a great saints in guard of "universal values" whose hiting the BAD BOY's hads!
    A real life and a real politics are little more complexy then black and white vision of stupid narrative in cheap hollywood western!
    ENTp

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    gore is without a doubt entj. it's not even debatable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by Dmitri Lytov
    To me, Hillary Clinton seems to be ESTP, and her housebond, Bill Clinton, either ESFj or ISFp.
    I think I can see your reasoning about Bill Clinton, and rather than and . That makes sense, but I have problem seeing him as ISFp or ESFj in his overall behavior.

    My reason for thinking that Hillary is ISTj rather than ESTp is that she's been described as very cold on a personal level, even with her daughter. She's not playful.
    i agree i think clinton is esfj.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Kensington
    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by Dmitri Lytov
    To me, Hillary Clinton seems to be ESTP, and her housebond, Bill Clinton, either ESFj or ISFp.
    I think I can see your reasoning about Bill Clinton, and rather than and . That makes sense, but I have problem seeing him as ISFp or ESFj in his overall behavior.

    My reason for thinking that Hillary is ISTj rather than ESTp is that she's been described as very cold on a personal level, even with her daughter. She's not playful.
    i agree i think clinton is esfj.
    No, Clinton is not an S-type. I would say ENFj.
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim
    No, Clinton is not an S-type. I would say ENFj.
    This is not a thread about Clinton, but it doesn't matter -- I will start one about possible INTjs.

    Why do you say Clinton is not a sensor?
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Default Re: INTj political leaders

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Angela Merkel, German Chancellor - not so sure but I think INTj is very likely.


    Angela Merkel, doesn't seem INTj to me, or at least for sure not the intuitive subtype. She seems a very practical, confident, down-to-earth person, not a dreamer. (i've only seen her briefly on tv, it's true).

    Isn't there a way, by any, chance she's ESTp?


    Maybe what you saw was more the way of presenting the thought process (that is )

    She could be , where you saw
    that's also my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamicism
    Quote Originally Posted by xiuxiu
    gore is without a doubt entj. it's not even debatable.
    No fucking way. He's INTj. ENTjs aren't near as awkward he can tend to be, nor as reserved in a seemingly aloof way as he so often appears.
    have you gotten around to seeing An Inconvenient Truth? watch that, then tell me he isn't entj. his demeanor, speech patterns, and even appearance are starkly entj. he is definitely not intj.
    lol

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    How about Prince Charles- INTJ, Princess Di- ESFJ?
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    How about Prince Charles- INTJ, Princess Di- ESFJ?
    Why do you think they were duals? His present wife may be his dual, but not Diana.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    How about Prince Charles- INTJ, Princess Di- ESFJ?
    Why do you think they were duals? His present wife may be his dual, but not Diana.
    Are you saying that he's not INTJ, or she's not ESFJ?
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    Quote Originally Posted by Dmitri Lytov
    tcaudillg, your criteria of socionic types of politicians are non-socionic, but rather stereotypical (NT are good, SF are bad, etc.) and, frankly speaking, sometimes illogical. For example you write:

    a logical person wouldn't try to roll-back democratic reforms, or jail political opponents, or seize control, bit-by-bit, of the media
    What about Joseph Stalin or Harry Sergueyevich Truman? They were both T, and even more, TJ.

    The way you describe Russia seems strange, very far from what we Russians see here. Thanks God you did not write about white bears walking down Russian streets (in fact many of American movies show Russia in such a way that Russians do not recognize themselves - who in the world are those bastards who write movie scripts?). If you want to discuss Russian policy, let's open a different topic in a non-socionic section of this forum.
    I'd love to discuss Russian policy. It bewilders us in the West to no end. Please open a thread yourself to state your view. I'm not sure on what context to open one myself, because I don't understand Russia.

    Ah, Stalin... very undifferentiated. Very, very much so. Would a TJ think so frankly about killing people? I read what he said and I am really surprised and horrified at the same time.... I'd call him an "Overlord" to whom only the superego block was differentiated, determined to be top dog. Not a TJ.

    SF bad? Not at all. NT good? No better than SF. Clinton? My fav politician. Harry Truman? A good one by my standards. (although he seems ISTP to me)
    I have typed Truman as ISTP too. As to Russia, why bother, they are not less illogical than the rest of the world. Just read the news.
    Well I am back. How's everyone? Don't have as much time now, but glad to see some of the old gang are still here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    How about Prince Charles- INTJ, Princess Di- ESFJ?
    Why do you think they were duals? His present wife may be his dual, but not Diana.
    Are you saying that he's not INTJ, or she's not ESFJ?
    What I primarily meant is that their relationship did not seem to be of duality.

    I think INTj is a good typing for Charles. I also think that Camilla, the Duchess of Cornwall, his present wife, can be seen as ESFj and their relationship fits duality.

    In the case of the late Princess Diana, I don't know but perhaps ISFp.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    In real time videos (like the ones where she has a speech teacher), she was very timid and shy. She was highly self-conscious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadae
    In real time videos (like the ones where she has a speech teacher), she was very timid and shy. She was highly self-conscious.
    Agreed. Diana was very shy, they did a documentary on that, where they analyzed specifically her attidude in dressing. She wasn't confident, for examle to wear something more extravagant, than her usual thing, although she could afford it (she was a princess, no?). She was a person very modest and simple.

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    I'm guessing INFj for Diana.

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    Update - -

    Dmitri Lytov has included Prince Charles as INFp and Diana as ENTj in his site.

    Honestly I can't see a case for either.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    me neither.

    Expat, can you link that site of Dmitri Lytov? I can't find it.

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    Dmitry's site is working again:
    http://www.socioniko.net

    After debating about it for quite a while I finally have settled on LSI for Putin, not LII. I believe this is the simplest possible explanation, and I don't believe Putin is psychotic. My description of him and reasons are given here:
    http://www.socionics.us/celebrities/lsi.shtml

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    I have no problem with Putin as LSI, but Theodore Roosevelt?
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    What were your ideas about Roosevelt?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    What were your ideas about Roosevelt?
    Well, he clearly valued over , so Beta or Gamma.

    I can't make the full case here. I think he was too much of a risk-taker to be a classic ISTj.

    The types that come to my mind are ESTp and ENTj. But he seemed to much of an attention-seeker to be the latter and too focused on principles to be the former. And seemed in him to be more of an aim, or instrument, than his main drive. His writings and quotes are full of .

    I think he was more likely an ENTj who worried too much about his than an ESTp.

    Perhaps the ISTj impression is due to his having introduced regulation, trust-busting, conservation etc. I think those have to be seen in the context of the economics of the the time.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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