Help with my INTp father

[Airman]

Recently me and a friend who knows more about socionics than myself - and who first typed me as an ESTJ - typed my father. He´s a very typical INTP individual. Very down to earth, too much.

There is a problem between us and we haven´t talked for days. I went to surgery without talking to him and came back and we´re still not talking. I wonder whether INTP has something called a heart or is it just a pessimistic and raging center that constantly gets people down.

The problem is I don´t know how to talk to him. Everytime something good happens in my life, he says it´s luck. The best thing he can do is to smile with a loving calm face and tell me 'nice that you were lucky, isn´t it?' like I was a retarded 5-year-old child. For him things can only go right in two situations: 1-when HE does things himself (he´s very confident in himself) or 2-when there is a sudden lightning of what he calls 'luck'. Because I am not him, I fall into the second case whenever I do something good. This irritates me a lot, and we have had plenty of discussions and arguments over the years. I would not like our relationship to be like this until he dies, or I die, because he´s already 63 now. I´d like to know how can I talk something to him which he does not find amusingly unrealistic or too optimistic. I see the glass half-empty, he fantasizes the glass to be totally empty. So we have a worse than worst relationship, barely talk to each other even when we´re in good terms because whatever I say he just shows contempt for.

I wonder how to make an INTP get my points. I don´t think he is capable because his head is too narrow and pessimistic to the extreme. I´m already negativist but he´s double that.

[The Greeter]

Airborne, I don't know if my advice will be of any help and my advice will surely not solve the general distance you and your father have developed.

Still, the reason I think your father may not be talking to you, in this instance, may be because you did not tell him that you were going into surgery.

I think your father is hurt. Surgery, even small, leaves your loved ones very worried and to not tell him that you are doing something this important (even though, objectively, it may not be) is somewhat heartbreaking, especially when they involve one's child.

I think you had good intentions for not informing him. Perhaps you did not want him to worry, I don't know. But if that is the case, I think you should explain this to him and hopefully he will speak to you again.

The problem is I don´t know how to talk to him. Everytime something good happens in my life, he says it´s luck.

That does sound very frustrating, but maybe he says this because he does not want you to be over-confident. Or maybe he naturally underestimates your abilities.

There are some things that parents say or do that should not be taken to heart because it may break it.

There is a possible Socionics explanation: your father interprets your achievements as blind luck due to your Ni-PoLR. That is, he feels you don't consider the deeper meaning of the things you do, or the consequences of your actions, that you may be directionless. And, to him, if one does not do this or is unaware of it, one does not have true control of their life.

But this is just a hypothesis, so take it with a grain of salt.

I hope that helped.

[Beautiful sky]

Sweetheart, for IM to take place between duals, they have to interact back and forth; I can not effectively help you by reading what you write and responding...it's complicated...but let me try.

It's good that you know your father's temperment already, which is pessimistic. That's completely fine because that's just the way he is and that is the way he will always be. So, my first advice is don't try to change him. You're a smart man, you can work with that and I will show you how.

Don't make him get your point and don't make him do anything. Sometimes you just have to let people be and learn to work with the side of them that they enjoy about themselves.

Discover your father's hobbies and participate in a few. If he doesn't have any ask him what he can become interested in doing with you. Every man loves BBQ's right? When you do host one for him, don't talk about yourself. With matters that concern you and your feelings, talk about them with someone who is more attentive and provides you with the right type of support. Talk about things of LUCK with your father if he is so concerned about those things.

To talk to him, you should call him and say "Dad I want to invite you over to such and such..."
You don't have to offer him an explaination about your surgery until he shows concern for it. Generally, parents will ask, if they are concerned.

You can not treat people with Te, honey....it's not how to get someone to do this or that. The how part of your story is Te. There is no formula for these relations. There is only being and adapting.

With my own mom, I love her dearly, I can only spend about two hour per day with her, then I want to run away because I can't interact with her on a healthy level. When I am with her, I engage her in a converstation well suited just for mom. This is a topic that she likes to emerse herself in, which is family love and the past stories. Like I said, after two hours of doing nothing but talking, I want to run away, but when I am there, I hold my breath and swallow my pride and go along with it. Then I kiss, hug, tell her I love her and run away.

[Airman]

Airborne, I don't know if my advice will be of any help and my advice will surely not solve the general distance you and your father have developed.

Still, the reason I think your father may not be talking to you, in this instance, may be because you did not tell him that you were going into surgery.

Yes I told him and my mother told him also. She even went with me to hospital contrary to my will (enneagram type 2w1 mom) and she helped me a lot, although I told her to stay home.

There is a possible Socionics explanation: your father interprets your achievements as blind luck due to your Ni-PoLR. That is, he feels you don't consider the deeper meaning of the things you do, or the consequences of your actions, that you may be directionless. And, to him, if one does not do this or is unaware of it, one does not have true control of their life.

But this is just a hypothesis, so take it with a grain of salt.

I hope that helped.

YES it did! Thank you. This is a very interesting explanation and it explains exactly what he says about me the most: "you don´t see the future, you´re careless in your actions, you might as well die someday crossing a street". He really does not see ANYthing in me which would compensate my Ni-polr, while in fact I do have a compensation for that (not sure which function though).

Thanks alot.
:wink:

[Airman]

Maritsa I am amazed at your reply.
You´re so sober and down to earth, you don´t even seem to be Maritsa posting. You did not come along with lengthy explanations about your deep occult socionics knowledge full of absolute truths. I am glad and shocked.

[Beautiful sky]

Maritsa I am amazed at your reply.
You´re so sober and down to earth, you don´t even seem to be Maritsa posting. You did not come along with lengthy explanations about your deep occult socionics knowledge full of absolute truths. I am glad and shocked.

Because I am your dual honey. I was made to give you relationship advice...that's the Fi in me...

[Mattie]

Interestingly enough, I'm having problems with my NiTe problems The reason why I post here is, strangely, he also tells me I'm incredibly lucky, and doesn't compliment my actual skills. I don't know if this is sheer chance or actually vs valuing, so I wonder how it's related, if at all. Anyone else can comment on this?

[Suz]

Interestingly enough, I'm having problems with my NiTe problems The reason why I post here is, strangely, he also tells me I'm incredibly lucky, and doesn't compliment my actual skills. I don't know if this is sheer chance or actually vs valuing, so I wonder how it's related, if at all. Anyone else can comment on this?

Maybe it's related to Fe-POLR?

[Mattie]

Maybe it's related to Fe-POLR?

I'm not sure, I haven't had this with any other type. It might just be him, I bounced off of it since someone had a similar experience with an NiTe father. I don't see an SiTe, for instance, saying similar things to me.

[The Greeter]

Yes I told him and my mother told him also. She even went with me to hospital contrary to my will (enneagram type 2w1 mom) and she helped me a lot, although I told her to stay home.

Oh I see. I apologize for the misinterpretation.

YES it did! Thank you. This is a very interesting explanation and it explains exactly what he says about me the most: "you don´t see the future, you´re careless in your actions, you might as well die someday crossing a street". He really does not see ANYthing in me which would compensate my Ni-polr, while in fact I do have a compensation for that (not sure which function though).

Thanks alot.
:wink:

I am really glad I could help. And I'm sure he does see your value, but he views the world through Ni lenses, thus it will be difficult for him to appreciate you to his fullest, but I am certain that there is still strong love for you from him.

Interestingly enough, I'm having problems with my NiTe problems The reason why I post here is, strangely, he also tells me I'm incredibly lucky, and doesn't compliment my actual skills. I don't know if this is sheer chance or actually vs valuing, so I wonder how it's related, if at all. Anyone else can comment on this?

I think it is related to Ni. I have been similarly criticized by an ILI for this, but that happens very rarely. For example, an ILI and I worked together to create an algorithm for an assignment using Java. Undoubtedly the ILI is better than I at programming, but we complemented each other because sometimes the ILI would get stuck and I would start spouting off possible methods. Anyway, after two or so, I eventually suggest one that would work. The ILI commented on how my technique could be somewhat annoying (and lucky) but still understood its value.

Ne has its uses sometimes.

[Minde]

Aixelsyd, thank you for posting that. I agree with and appreciate so much of what you said. It really helps to see someone as a person and not just a set of behaviors that are hurtful and bothersome, though it can be very hard to do when in the moment and in pain.

Something about both ESTjs and INTps is that they both lack and desire Fi. So I think that makes it especially hard once things start to go sour (as they tend to do in supervision). Both feel uncertain about the relationship and don't really know or feel confident about what to do to make it better.

Perhaps something that can be done is to "fake" the Fi, even if it isn't strongly felt. For example, I think simply saying something like, "Dad, I love you and am glad you're my dad", calmly and with no expectations, might give him some of that Fi reassurance, that there is a relationship and it is valued and good. And patience (long-suffering, to use a biblical term) plus listening, particularly active listening, so the other person feels understood and accepted can be vital.

These kinds of "Fi habits" I guess you could call them, can be cultivated even if they may not come naturally.

[Airman]

very interesting replies...

I think ESTJs and INTPs cannot really understand each other. INTPs are too cold and think too much using the past, they think the past is going to repeat itself endlessly. Change for better only happens by 'luck'. This sucks.

This thread is interesting, nice to see the other side, Aixelsyd.

But definitely ESTJ and INTP were made to stay away from each other. I don´t see any possibility of one understanding the other.

And I think Gammas do not and cannot understand Deltas and vice-versa. I was just talking to a friend about this.

[Minde]

You do not have to completely understand and resonate with someone to get along with them. True, it may not be wisest to have high expectations, but neither do you have to give up all hope of amicable relations.

As an example, I've been able to get along with ESTps, ISTjs, ENFjs, etc. just fine. It takes patience and some repression of some of my natural inclinations as well as having to sort of "fake" some things, and we'll never be bestest friends, but we can still like each other and work together.

[Beautiful sky]

very interesting replies...

I think ESTJs and INTPs cannot really understand each other. INTPs are too cold and think too much using the past, they think the past is going to repeat itself endlessly. Change for better only happens by 'luck'. This sucks.

This thread is interesting, nice to see the other side, Aixelsyd.

But definitely ESTJ and INTP were made to stay away from each other. I don´t see any possibility of one understanding the other.

And I think Gammas do not and cannot understand Deltas and vice-versa. I was just talking to a friend about this.

They are not cold honey. There is a warmness inside every individual; it's not like the one that you have. You just have to find that key. One thing is always a given in human nature is socialness; we may deny it and each to our own may say that we are fine spending the rest of our lives along, but this is not true; deeply imprinted in all of us is the need to not only be understood, but also to be valued in our own way, the way we are and not the way others want us to be.

[Aiss]

It's even worse with ESEs. Same miscommunication aixelsyd described, different accusations.

BTW my ESE mom has this "you won't be able to do this! you did? well, you were lucky!" attitude. I think it might have more to do with not understanding the other person's approach. Which is exactly what happens in conflict and supervision. One's base is the other's PoLR, so their approach is seen as totally wrong and heading towards failure.

[Airman]

yea...sometimes life just sucks but it´s temporary.

[jewels]

That does sound very frustrating, but maybe he says this because he does not want you to be over-confident. Or maybe he naturally underestimates your abilities.

There are some things that parents say or do that should not be taken to heart because it may break it.

This is completely unacceptable. To me it sounds like emotional abuse to neglect a person like that, and there is nothing at ALL ok with trying to keep someone from being "over confident."

Airborne, I highly suggest therapy -- not because you've done anything wrong, but because emotional abuse has serious effects that if not dealt with, don't go away on their own. Your dad may never go, but at least you can improve your own life.

Emotional abuse doesn't get much support these days (sticks and stones right?), but it can be more harmful than physical abuse, especially because it's not often recognized as the HUGE problem that it is in ruining lives. Sounds like your dad has some problems and has harmed you in the process.

(And I wouldn't chalk this up to socionics because I've known some very warm INTps).

[The Greeter]

This is completely unacceptable. To me it sounds like emotional abuse to neglect a person like that, and there is nothing at ALL ok with trying to keep someone from being "over confident."

I would find this unacceptable in myself if I was a parent. But I know very little detail about Airborne's life and his interactions with his father. I also don't expect every parent to be perfect. Additionally, this may be a cultural difference because fathers, especially here in the West, are expected to be more than just a provider.

Also, over confidence is a detrimental thing to a child, not in their youth but in their adulthood. Being humble is a good thing. The way Airborne depicts his father makes it seem that his father is overly critical, but Airborne seems to be a well-adjusted individual. I know it does not justify his father's lack of support, but again, parents are not perfect.

I'm sorry to have offended it you.

(And I wouldn't chalk this up to socionics because I've known some very warm INTps).

Thanks for mentioning this; I just realized that this thread might seem to be bashing INTps, but, in fact, INTps are great and I get along with them quite well. I was just describing what I see as differences in functional values and the way it manifests in our interactions.

You do not have to completely understand and resonate with someone to get along with them. True, it may not be wisest to have high expectations, but neither do you have to give up all hope of amicable relations.

As an example, I've been able to get along with ESTps, ISTjs, ENFjs, etc. just fine. It takes patience and some repression of some of my natural inclinations as well as having to sort of "fake" some things, and we'll never be bestest friends, but we can still like each other and work together.

I agree with this and, even though I may have to repress some part of me for the betterment of the relationship, I feel no grudge in doing so. I quite enjoy the companies of Betas; it just can't be for too long.

I'm not sure about the "fake" part though, unless by "fake" you mean a form of self-repression?

[Minde]

I agree with this and, even though I may have to repress some part of me for the betterment of the relationship, I feel no grudge in doing so. I quite enjoy the companies of Betas; it just can't be for too long.

I'm not sure about the "fake" part though, unless by "fake" you mean a form of self-repression?

Not so much repression as trying to give what I don't normally or naturally give. Like lots of Fe, which the ESTps like. There are things that people like to have from others in interactions, some of which I don't need or want myself and don't automatically give, but by observing what makes them happy I can at least give an approximation of it for short periods of time. That's what I mean by "fake". It's not "real" Fe like a Fe ego could give, but it is real in that I do truly like the person and am trying to express myself so the message can reach them.

And, yes, like you said, it can't be for too long or I get worn out and out of sorts. But once I figure out the right balance with people it's possible to have a positive relationship with any type.

[Airman]

This is completely unacceptable. To me it sounds like emotional abuse to neglect a person like that, and there is nothing at ALL ok with trying to keep someone from being "over confident."

Airborne, I highly suggest therapy -- not because you've done anything wrong, but because emotional abuse has serious effects that if not dealt with, don't go away on their own. Your dad may never go, but at least you can improve your own life.

Emotional abuse doesn't get much support these days (sticks and stones right?), but it can be more harmful than physical abuse, especially because it's not often recognized as the HUGE problem that it is in ruining lives. Sounds like your dad has some problems and has harmed you in the process.

(And I wouldn't chalk this up to socionics because I've known some very warm INTps).

Thank you Jewels. You are quite right. My father had an alcoholic father who beat him a lot when he was young, he died one year before I was born. He also does not like his mother - my grandmother - and I don´t know really why but he never really seemed to like her, while I myself found her a person with interesting qualities while she was still alive. So my father is basically someone who thinks he´s been badly treated by both his father and mother. Then he had problems with alcohol himself and quit drinking some 10 years ago, since then he became very neurotic, although his life changed for better. He became too strict and only leaves home to work. He says he can´t socialize without alcohol and everyone is alcoholic so he stays home, reading. He definitely does not have a good mood and is most of the time too serious, irritated and/or tired.

He hasn´t got so cold and incomprehensive towards me out of being an INTP - I recognize there´s much more involved. I´m already doing therapy once a week but it´s not improving a lot. Basically because there is little to improve. He´s not going to change at 63, and so it will be like this. I feel a bit sad for him. But I have to think about myself and make my life. I can´t fix his past. He suffered a lot in his life. I have to see this.

[Beautiful sky]

Thank you Jewels. You are quite right. My father had an alcoholic father who beat him a lot when he was young, he died one year before I was born. He also does not like his mother - my grandmother - and I don´t know really why but he never really seemed to like her, while I myself found her a person with interesting qualities while she was still alive. So my father is basically someone who thinks he´s been badly treated by both his father and mother. Then he had problems with alcohol himself and quit drinking some 10 years ago, since then he became very neurotic, although his life changed for better. He became too strict and only leaves home to work. He says he can´t socialize without alcohol and everyone is alcoholic so he stays home, reading. He definitely does not have a good mood and is most of the time too serious, irritated and/or tired.

He hasn´t got so cold and incomprehensive towards me out of being an INTP - I recognize there´s much more involved. I´m already doing therapy once a week but it´s not improving a lot. Basically because there is little to improve. He´s not going to change at 63, and so it will be like this. I feel a bit sad for him. But I have to think about myself and make my life. I can´t fix his past. He suffered a lot in his life. I have to see this.

Yes, I saw that. I didn't want to mention it because of the sensitivity of the topic. So, the best thing to do is to make the best of it from the small things. Small things are big ones too, we often over look them as individuals, but they make a big difference in the ordinary lives of people.

[jewels]

Thank you Jewels. You are quite right. My father had an alcoholic father who beat him a lot when he was young, he died one year before I was born. He also does not like his mother - my grandmother - and I don´t know really why but he never really seemed to like her, while I myself found her a person with interesting qualities while she was still alive. So my father is basically someone who thinks he´s been badly treated by both his father and mother. Then he had problems with alcohol himself and quit drinking some 10 years ago, since then he became very neurotic, although his life changed for better. He became too strict and only leaves home to work. He says he can´t socialize without alcohol and everyone is alcoholic so he stays home, reading. He definitely does not have a good mood and is most of the time too serious, irritated and/or tired.

He hasn´t got so cold and incomprehensive towards me out of being an INTP - I recognize there´s much more involved. I´m already doing therapy once a week but it´s not improving a lot. Basically because there is little to improve. He´s not going to change at 63, and so it will be like this. I feel a bit sad for him. But I have to think about myself and make my life. I can´t fix his past. He suffered a lot in his life. I have to see this.

well yeah, I mean the therapy is not going to fix him, unless he's the one who wants to change. But it can help you cope with dealing w/ him and his abusive words. If it's not working for you, maybe look into a different therapist, as it should be helping more than that -- I mean for you moving forward. Doesn't sound like he's at a point of being willing to change.

[Creepy-male]

Recently me and a friend who knows more about socionics than myself - and who first typed me as an ESTJ - typed my father. He´s a very typical INTP individual. Very down to earth, too much.

There is a problem between us and we haven´t talked for days. I went to surgery without talking to him and came back and we´re still not talking. I wonder whether INTP has something called a heart or is it just a pessimistic and raging center that constantly gets people down.

The problem is I don´t know how to talk to him. Everytime something good happens in my life, he says it´s luck. The best thing he can do is to smile with a loving calm face and tell me 'nice that you were lucky, isn´t it?' like I was a retarded 5-year-old child. For him things can only go right in two situations: 1-when HE does things himself (he´s very confident in himself) or 2-when there is a sudden lightning of what he calls 'luck'. Because I am not him, I fall into the second case whenever I do something good. This irritates me a lot, and we have had plenty of discussions and arguments over the years. I would not like our relationship to be like this until he dies, or I die, because he´s already 63 now. I´d like to know how can I talk something to him which he does not find amusingly unrealistic or too optimistic. I see the glass half-empty, he fantasizes the glass to be totally empty. So we have a worse than worst relationship, barely talk to each other even when we´re in good terms because whatever I say he just shows contempt for.

I wonder how to make an INTP get my points. I don´t think he is capable because his head is too narrow and pessimistic to the extreme. I´m already negativist but he´s double that.

give examples please if your up for it