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Thread: Ne and empirical data

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    Default Ne and empirical data

    I was wondering about Ne in ILEs and IEEs: does Ne involve the attitude that (raw) empirical data is discarded once its information has been integrated in the knowledge framework, i.e. easily forgotten?
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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    I was wondering about Ne in ILEs and IEEs: does Ne involve the attitude that (raw) empirical data is discarded once its information has been integrated in the knowledge framework, i.e. easily forgotten?
    It's usually backed up somewhere on a floppy disk.


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    I'm inclined to think so, as it is / that we are actively using rather than, let's say, /. I might be reaching/generalizing, but / leads tend to go off on their established conclusions and back themselves up whenever necessary, but have a stronger grasp on what they believe/think rather than on how or why they think the way they do. It's not to say these types have baseless beliefs, but it might be what they focus on more. I'm not completely sure, but this was my gut reaction.

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    I wouldn't say that it should be discarded, but I would say Ne egos find the data secondary to it's usefulness. That is, once it's been analyzed and a conclusion or use has been established, the knowledge of the initial data is less important than moving forward.

    All of that said, I don't entirely believe in empiricism. There are very few arenas in the world where empirical data can actually be used empirically.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timeless View Post
    It's usually backed up somewhere on a floppy disk.

    that's what I mean: where can you get a floppy drive nowdays?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vero View Post
    I wouldn't say that it should be discarded, but I would say Ne egos find the data secondary to it's usefulness. That is, once it's been analyzed and a conclusion or use has been established, the knowledge of the initial data is less important than moving forward.

    All of that said, I don't entirely believe in empiricism. There are very few arenas in the world where empirical data can actually be used empirically.
    That's precisely what I meant: not that it should be discarded, but that leading Ne types have no use for it once it has been processed, or have some sort of incapability to keep it in memory, whereas other types (Se/Si???) might retain the data more easily.
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    Just thought about this a little further and thought of something else. As Ne base types are focussed on a certain degree of discovery, their objective is completed simply by discovering and once they've found an acceptable conclusion they're prepared to move on. This discovery fixation is the foundation of certain IXE stereotypes like rapidly changing interests.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vero View Post
    Just thought about this a little further and thought of something else. As Ne base types are focussed on a certain degree of discovery, their objective is completed simply by discovering and once they've found an acceptable conclusion they're prepared to move on. This discovery fixation is the foundation of certain IXE stereotypes like rapidly changing interests.
    thisis a satisfying answer. I was wondering if it ws just me or something more general.

    I wonder if something simiar also applies to Ne-creative types, or Ni-ego types.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vero View Post
    Just thought about this a little further and thought of something else. As Ne base types are focussed on a certain degree of discovery, their objective is completed simply by discovering and once they've found an acceptable conclusion they're prepared to move on. This discovery fixation is the foundation of certain IXE stereotypes like rapidly changing interests.
    Maybe that is more of a TiNe and FiNe because they are Conceptual/Judging types. A black/white thinkers.

    NeTi or NeFi are more likely to keep noticing possibilities and trends then they are to settle and move on. A open book thinkers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vero View Post
    Just thought about this a little further and thought of something else. As Ne base types are focussed on a certain degree of discovery, their objective is completed simply by discovering and once they've found an acceptable conclusion they're prepared to move on. This discovery fixation is the foundation of certain IXE stereotypes like rapidly changing interests.
    Agreed, my kindred always know what to say. Half of the time

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    Maybe that is more of a TiNe and FiNe because they are Conceptual/Judging types. A black/white thinkers.

    NeTi or NeFi are more likely to keep noticing possibilities and trends then they are to settle and move on. A open book thinkers.
    I think you've slightly missed what I meant. I did not say that IXEs settle on an idea and are unopen to changing the interpretation of this idea. Rather, that instead of dwelling on a series of noted "facts" they wish to use them. This fixation on use, which in this context I've extrapolated to mean discovery, means that IXEs are less fixated on the data. They have no need to fixate on data because if they've observed the data once they can observe the data again.

    In contrast, I've noticed Ni base types (ILI/IEI) have a tendency to fixate on data. Not only are they active data collectors, but they want to have constant access to this pool of concrete variables which they can use to filter through their own perception of possible outcomes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    that's what I mean: where can you get a floppy drive nowdays?
    Well, taking this analogy further:

    I believe I have a floppy drive, but I don't use it as much. It may have dust on it, but it still exists, so I wouldn't say it's discarded completely. The drive is there, but the disk is somewhere out there "...if I can remember where." Even if I didn't have a drive, I can always find one on eBay and re-install it.

    :wink:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Timeless View Post
    Well, taking this analogy further:

    I believe I have a floppy drive, but I don't use it as much. It may have dust on it, but it still exists, so I wouldn't say it's discarded completely. The drive is there, but the disk is somewhere out there "...if I can remember where." Even if I didn't have a drive, I can always find one on eBay and re-install it.

    :wink:
    Haha, very funny but effective analogy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinocchio View Post
    In my observations, IEEs remember very old things, they keep the past alive and talk all the day about it. They also tend to keep things they don't know exactly if they'll be of some use. ILEs, on the other hand, forget very easily, even some things that were important for them at one point (the main goal).

    Now, unless I misunderstood your request, ime they behave in the opposite manner, this being related to Ti vs Fi rather.
    Yes, I have observed the same phenomena. As to the IEEs memory for old things, I would say that is not the memory of old raw data, but snippets of information presented from the knowledge framework, which is the container of integrated information (note: not integrated data). So what I actually mean by raw empirical data, is sort of sensory data (not necessarily speaking of sensory in Socionics terms). Am I making sense?
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    "Never memorize something that you can look up."
    — Albert Einstein



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    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    "Never memorize something that you can look up."
    — Albert Einstein
    Aha, is that how Ne-base types rationalize it!? But true enough, this has always been my motto as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    "Never memorize something that you can look up."
    — Albert Einstein
    OMG I totally live by that rule.

    It's valuable brain space!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    that's what I mean: where can you get a floppy drive nowdays?
    The library I work at has external floppy drives that patrons can borrow. The external drive hooks up to a USB port and has a slot to stick a floppy in. We still get a couple of requests for it each day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    "Never memorize something that you can look up."
    — Albert Einstein
    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    Aha, is that how Ne-base types rationalize it!? But true enough, this has always been my motto as well.
    I mostly agree with this, I don't like to memorize stuff either. However, there are some things I will take the time to memorize because I don't want to have to look it up everytime.

    It's funny how alot of people these days don't memorize their own phone number for example. They have to pop open their cell phone and look it up in the index. I know that you normally don't call yourself but when you have to fill out a form that asks for your phone number or someone asks for it, I think it would be a real pain to have to look it up every time.

    I'm old enough to remember the days when most people didn't have cell phones. I remember when I was in elementary school, that we were told to always remember our phone number and never forgot it. Unless you have a major memory impairment, not knowing your own phone number was virtually unheard of.
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    Ne frequently involves getting the roundabout gist of things. I certainly agree with the basic idea that Einstein presents in the quote. That is what reference material is for. Rote memorization is not necessarily learning, but when you do actually learn, you tend remember better and more.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    "Never memorize something that you can look up."
    — Albert Einstein
    A little never hurt anyone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    Ne frequently involves getting the roundabout gist of things. I certainly agree with the basic idea that Einstein presents in the quote. That is what reference material is for. Rote memorization is not necessarily learning, but when you do actually learn, you tend remember better and more.
    theeeeere used to ba graying tower alone on the seaaaa youuuuu became a litght on the darrk siiide of meeeee loooooooooinvg became a drug thats the hi and not the piiiillll but diitd you know that when it snows my eyyyyyse become laaarge ant the light that you shiiiinee can be seeen baaaabeeeeyyy i compare you to a kisss from a rose on the gray oohhhhhhh the more i get of you the strannN@gner is it is yeaaaaah and NOW that your rossse is in bloom a light hits the gloom on the greeyyy bahwhahaayayayayayayaya ayayaya ayabyaya Therrrree is so much a man can tell you so mucch he can say yooooouu remain my power err my pleasure MY PAIN bbaabaaay to me you're like a growins adiction that i cant deeennyyy wont you tell me is that.... healthy baaaaybay? but did you know that when it snow my eyes became large and the light that you shine can be seen? baby i compare you a kis from a roosse on the gray ohhhhh the more a get of you the stranger it feel yeeeaaaah now that you're rose is in blooom. a light hits the groom on the greayy iiivveee beeeen kised by a rose on the gray ive been kissed bytn a rose on the gray ive been kissed bya rose on the greay (ive been kissed by a rose on the greay in the background) ive been keiissed by a rose (and if i should fall at all (i think)) theeeere is so much a man can tell you sooo yoooou remain my power my PLEeassreue my PAin! to me your like a groiwn a ddictin that I cant deny wont you tell me is that healthly babbby but did you know that when it snows my eyes become large and the light that you shine can be seen???/ BAAABAAAAY you remind you me of a kiss from the rose on the gray oohhh the more i get you the strangers it feeelllssss yeaaaaaaah now that your rose isin bloom, a light hits the groom on the grey YES Icompare you to a kiss from the rose on the gray oooggghhhhh the more i get of you the srtanger it feellsss yeaaaaaa now that your rose is in bloom a light hits the groom on the grayyyy baallalahhalalahahahahaha alalal alalalaa alalallla lal now that your rosesss is in bloom...... a liiiggght hits the glooom on theeeee graayyyyyy .........

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    Lmao I was baked out of my mind when I wrote that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    Lmao I was baked out of my mind when I wrote that.
    I was highly amused. I was not sure what was going on when I first read it. I had to read it aloud, and then I realized that I was reciting Seal. I stopped and then laughed for a good two minutes. Good times.
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