Alphas and higher education (college/university)

[Creepy-male]

Question for the Alphas here...

Have you been to university? Did you complete a degree? Drop out? How did you find it?

Gogo.

[Khola aka Bee]

Yes. Currently completing.

[Mediator Kam]

I am completing a Biochem degree at an engineering school, first year. Many NTs there, so I am a bit of a novelty there.

My father went to that college for a bit and I originally wanted to go into software, so that school was a good fit. Still is.

[Trevor]

Fuck university. Dilettantism rules.

[krieger]

Workin on a degree in Cognitive Science (Masters).

[krieger]

I think the age of universities is coming to an end now that things like the internet are available. A university as a place for people to gather and as a place to deposit and extract information from is losing it's function. All of these things can be done more efficiently on the internets.

[detail]

But certainly not as a place where there are already solid research oriented infrastructures.

[krieger]

True. Maybe they will just shrink a little.

[cracka]

I graduated high school and enrolled in a tech school the following week, graduated in 2 years and have been working the same career since a week after graduating from there... Almost 10 years now.
I'm a pretty simple person though, all I wanted was a quick degree to get a job that pays enough to make me happy. I've thought about going back to school since my company would pay for it, but I figure working full time and going to school would be too stressful and I pretty much just don't want to or think I need it.

[Blaze]

I think the age of universities is coming to an end now that things like the internet are available. A university as a place for people to gather and as a place to deposit and extract information from is losing it's function. All of these things can be done more efficiently on the internets.

i wouldn't be so sure. they want you to have the piece of paper, and university is quite in bed with corporate.

to answer the thread question, i have a BA and an MSW. love school. wish you could make money going to school, but you can't.

[Wynch]

I'm finishing off my BA in History and off to do my BEd next year. Getting a lot of pressure to do my MA from a couple profs, but I'm not ready to dedicate that much of my life to academic research right now. As it is, I keep feeling bogged down by the amount of research I'm doing on my papers.

[Brilliand]

I'm finishing up a BS in computer science.

[Timeless]

I'm on my way:

Astrophysics

[The Exception]

I graduated high school and enrolled in a tech school the following week, graduated in 2 years and have been working the same career since a week after graduating from there... Almost 10 years now.
I'm a pretty simple person though, all I wanted was a quick degree to get a job that pays enough to make me happy. I've thought about going back to school since my company would pay for it, but I figure working full time and going to school would be too stressful and I pretty much just don't want to or think I need it.

Could judicious quadra type be more clear?

[Khola aka Bee]

I think the age of universities is coming to an end now that things like the internet are available. A university as a place for people to gather and as a place to deposit and extract information from is losing it's function. All of these things can be done more efficiently on the internets.

While information is freely available online, a university degree is also an example of commitment. If someone can prove to a potential employer that they can focus on something and stick to it for 3+ years with good results, that is a good sign for their potential future career. University isn't just about what you learn - a degree can be a statement of loyalty and determination as well.

[tiny_dancer]

Alphas probably hold the highest number of degrees of my friends. All of them are going for their masters or doctorate. I know a few who ended with just a BS.

[Nowisthetime]

I have a masters degree from a university. It took me like 12 years to get it. I was an extremely inefficient student, but teachers often liked me and my ideas. I changed my major 3 times. It felt good that I finally was able to graduate.

If I could live my life again, I'm not sure I would have gone to the university. I never liked studying there. It's still a mystery for my why I applied to the university in the first place. In the library I usually just looked at the girls or went for a coffee, or slept, or surfed the web or silently enjoyed the atmosphere. I always admired people who were able to dig into an abstract subject and fully concentrate. I could never do that, but I always wanted to. I never get flow from studying abstract subjects, but I get it from doing hands on stuff.

[munenori2]

I've got a BA in Philosophy. It took me like six years though since I changed majors like crazy (from international business to accounting to Japanese and finally into philo). Philosophy was the only thing besides languages I actually liked and didn't think would suck away my lifeforce so I stuck with it.

I tried going back to get into some kind of medical field but working full time and going to school really drains you, especially considering the amount of time, energy, and money I'd have to pour into it to wind up doing something I'm not entirely sure I'd love doing.

[Serious Name]

Currently going to university for electrical engineering. I was considering doing mechanical/aerospace just because 1) it would be awesome to get both degrees at once since and 2) I could claim to be a rocket scientist. Yes, that was seriously enough of a reason for me to pick that major lol.

But then I realized electrical is much more awesome and, honestly, damn near everything needs an EE at some point for electrical goodness.


Oh, and I find it quite interesting. Physics 2 is a HUGE pain in the ass and, oddly enough, its the part that focuses on electricity...but the concepts make you think. That and once you take logics classes, computers make infinitely more sense.

It seriously brings a shit-eating grin to my face to have even a slight understanding of how things around me work...that and the little kid in me thinks what I do is the shit.

Kid-Me: Hey...what am I gonna learn in college?
Now-Me: How to make robots. Smart robots.
Kid-Me: FUCKING SWEET

[Krig the Viking]

I'm too much of a contrarian to go to university.

[jason_m]

Workin on a degree in Cognitive Science (Masters).

I've just started reading a book by Daniel Dennett. Do you know of him? If so, what do you think of his philosophy of mind? (Just interested to hear a researcher's opinion.)

[eunice]

Alphas probably hold the highest number of degrees of my friends. All of them are going for their masters or doctorate.

I have made that observation as well, and my INTj dad is one of them.
I never understood why some of my Alpha friends or relatives would be so interested to pursue educational qualifications after qualifications. I enjoy learning new things which do not necessary lead to a formal qualification e.g. reading from a book or website, going for talks/seminars, learning from friends/relatives. I would only pursue a post graduate degree if the profession that I would like to enter requires me to acquire one e.g. Accountancy, Physical Therapy, Law, Occupational Therapy etc. If not, I don't think the post basic degree salary adjustment would be enticing enough for me to take on a postgraduate qualification, in consideration of the time, effort and money I have to invest in for pursuing the postgraduate qualification.

[mu4]

Hate school.

[Krig the Viking]

Hate school.

You went to Hate School?

[mu4]

I've just started reading a book by Daniel Dennett. Do you know of him? If so, what do you think of his philosophy of mind? (Just interested to hear a researcher's opinion.)

Daniel Dennett considers himself a autodidact, which is a good thing to be.

[Rubicon]

Alphas and university?

Yes. Currently completing.

Shameless IEE

??

[Creepy-male]

School System is a broken one, plagued by apathy from students and teachers, and contorted beyond repair by red-tape and beaurcracy. Everything with education is all this political sentiment and preteniousness; if you just had some realistic results oriented people run things, our education would be vastly superior and our populace vastly happier and more fulfilled.

Anyways, with that said, I'm a shameless sell-out to the system and getting a degree in Physics Space Sciences. Basically its a little bit of physics and a little bit of aerospace engineering.

[Krig the Viking]

School System is a broken one, plagued by apathy from students and teachers, and contorted beyond repair by red-tape and beaurcracy. Everything with education is all this political sentiment and preteniousness; if you just had some realistic results oriented people run things, our education would be vastly superior and our populace vastly happier and more fulfilled.

Hear, hear!

[mu4]

School System is a broken one, plagued by apathy from students and teachers, and contorted beyond repair by red-tape and beaurcracy. Everything with education is all this political sentiment and preteniousness; if you just had some realistic results oriented people run things, our education would be vastly superior and our populace vastly happier and more fulfilled.

Anyways, with that said, I'm a shameless sell-out to the system and getting a degree in Physics Space Sciences. Basically its a little bit of physics and a little bit of aerospace engineering.

Education system isn't so much broken as much as the point of education system isn't for some people; however, many roads can be closed because of a lack of education. Education is for training, jobs, and qualification analysis. Certifications and qualifications are the point of education system at this time in the US.

The number of people entering higher education in industrialized countries is unprecedented, and there lies a problem of lack of teachers.

There's probably a bit of dilution in talent pool.

The issue of education isn't about education, but about time-management. I think children and students spend too much time going thru the hamster wheel and a dirth of good teachers compounds that problem.

[1981slater]

I say the weak who don't get degrees (because they didn't have either guts or brain) blame the system. The system have flaws and there are of course, talented-knowledgeable people who never went to the university, and the university is just a step in life. But my point of view is clear: you say you are smart? PROVE IT

*I'm not talking to any particular forum member

[mu4]

I say the weak who don't get degrees (because they didn't have either guts or brain) blame the system. The system have flaws and there are of course, talented-knowledgeable people who never went to the university, and the university is just a step in life. But my point of view is clear: you say you are smart? PROVE IT

*I'm not talking to any particular forum member

There is a problem here, and that is the system influences group competitiveness. Individual education is important, but a society that does not teach and education in a reasonable fashion fails to produce quality products or innovations.

The system of China, a Confucian, stagnate system built on ethical values and largely promoted rote memorization and extreme amounts of work.

There is of course a benefit to this, but this benefit has a price.

Sure it's easy to say "Prove it". How? I see many employees come and go, failing to prove it in life with degrees, certificates, qualifications. They eventually find some niche which they fill adequately whether it's picking up the phone or responding to a email and many matters of administration. All skills which are encouraged in most education system.

I've met many talented people in my life, many of whom were more skilled in some fashion then I am and some of them lacked these skills which are so neccessary for the education system. The American system isn't even terrible, I think it's pretty good, but there has been movements which have reduced the quality of scientific education in the US, including math and critical thinking.

Some of them have passed on to death, some have made a success in life, some are in transition.

Also Slater, how do you ramp up your education system for a 700% increase in enrollment in less then a generation with no sign of dwindling.

We're in a period of time where our education system is taxed heavily. Fundamentally what we need to improve in the quality of education is how to attain that specimen of humanity for which we shall call educated in the fastest time possible. We cannot rely on prior methods of education, we cannot simply say, "MORE HOMEWORK", we cannot say "IF YOU CAN'T CUT IT, YOU ARE OUT". The amount of knowledge in the world is growing exponentially, old mechanisms of education will only lead to a lifetime of the hamster wheel and no time for production.

The areas of education where failings are occuring daily is that cheating is endemic. Why is this? The problem of cheating is one of memorization, homework and tradition, fundamentally there is a benefit to memorization, but one which is steadily being devalued, and the danger of which is indoctrination.

Open book exams, hands on puzzles, oral exams, these are mechanisms which are hard to game thru writing some formula on a shoe or a act of plagiarism.

Memorization is important, but in a way, the problem of cheating only exists because the value of memorization which promotes a form of unconscious indoctrination is so paramount in many educational systems.

The problem is not that people cheat, but that cheating has become in some ways, the rational productive alternative in education, it leaves one free to do what one is interested in.

I worked most of the time in the physical laboratory [at the Polytechnic Institute of Zürich], fascinated by the direct contact with experience. The balance of the time I used in the main in order to study at home the works of Kirchoff, Helmholtz, Hertz, etc. . . . In [physics], however, I soon learned to scent out that which was able to lead to fundamentals and to turn aside from everything else, from the multitude of things which clutter up the mind and divert it from the essential. The hitch in this was, of course, the fact that one had to cram all this stuff into one's mind for the examinations, whether one liked it or not. This coercion had such a deterring effect [upon me] that, after I had passed the final examination, I found the consideration of any scientific problems distasteful to me for an entire year. In justice I must add, moreover, that in Switzerland we had to suffer far less under such coercion, which smothers every truly scientific impulse, than is the case in many another locality. There were altogether only two examinations; aside from these, one could just about do as one pleased. his was especially the case if one had a friend, as did I, who attended the lectures regularly and who worked over their content conscientiously. This gave one freedom in the choice of pursuits until a few months before the examination, a freedom which I enjoyed to a great extent and have gladly taken into the bargain the bad conscience connected with it as by far the lesser evil. It is, in fact, nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction have not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry; for this delicate little plant, aside from stimulation, stands mainly in need of freedom; without this it goes to wreck and ruin without fail. It is a very grave mistake to think that the enjoyment of seeing and searching can be promoted by means of coercion and a sense of duty. To the contrary, I believe it would be possible to rob even a healthy beast of prey of its voraciousness, if it were possible, with the aid of a whip, to force the beast to devour continuously, even when not hungry, especially if the food, handed out under such coercion, were to be selected accordingly.

Cheating is for everyone.

[1981slater]

Hkkmr, I said that because I've seen "normal" people [90-110 IQ who load trucks for a living, watch TV for more than 8 hours a day and never read a book] who claim they are smarter than doctors, engineers, architects or whatever

[Cyrano]

Hkkmr, I said that because I've seen "normal" people [90-110 IQ who load trucks for a living, watch TV for more than 8 hours a day and never read a book] who claim they are smarter than doctors, engineers, architects or whatever

I counted three, "I have a degree" responses so far.

[mu4]

Hkkmr, I said that because I've seen "normal" people [90-110 IQ who load trucks for a living, watch TV for more than 8 hours a day and never read a book] who claim they are smarter than doctors, engineers, architects or whatever

By the time you're out of elementary school, some are already ruined to the education system.

Be quiet. You are stupid. Do your homework. Take notes, are the skills many people learn.

I think most "normal" people probably don't need much education, but it doesn't hurt if they learn something either.

Anyways, I might be stupid or some people might call me stupid, but you can be sure my kids are going to be fabulously educated by me personally!

[Wynch]

These questions around education are always really fascinating to me because I'm pursuing a career in education. I'm constantly frustrated because in the province I live in, there are an inordinate number of teachers for how many jobs there are available. Too many people use education as a cop out for not pursuing another career.

This annoys me.

I'm quite passionate about teaching and about the numerous problems surround the system. I want to take my creativity and enthusiasm to schools in order to inspire other students to pursue whatever interests drive them. It sucks because I know I will get caught in a certain degree of bureaucratic bullshit. However, I think if people care enough and are good at manipulating systems they can find a way to use the system to their advantage.

The thing that pisses me off about university is that it's become a necessary tool for attain a career (outside of more specific trades) and as a by-product the objective of a university degree has come into conflict with what it's supposed to do. Professors at universities are researchers. They are driven by exploring new ideas and not worrying about whether or not that research is directly useful for increasing productivity, efficiency, etc. However, students pursuing an undergraduate degree just so they can work somewhere defeat the purpose of university life. As a by-product the university education has been sterilized by people who really don't belong in university. I honestly believe that if I could have skipped wading through the bullshit that is my undergrad degree I would have been able to run right through and become an academic. Instead I feel dragged down by the idiocy of the system and feel like if I was going to get a piece of paper for a job I should have gone to college where I could learn skills that were actually applicable.

I'm fortunate in that my university experience has been filled with Profs who actually care about engaging with students and I've picked out classes which push for creative thinking. Recently, my relationships with these people have come to fruition and I've finally found myself with profs who care more about the idea than the process.

What's stupid about university is that it's oriented around proofs instead of ideas. You need to demonstrate ability, which isn't the point of exploring ideas. People are more concerned about the grade then what they're actually talking about. That is really frustrating.

There is a physics professor at the other university in this city who essentially pass/fails students. You either get As in his class or you fail. The point of this is so that people will worry less about making a grade and more about learning the content. People pass by demonstrating an ability to engage with the material and apply it. If you've learned the material and can demonstrate that you understand the concepts behind it then you get an A.

There are obvious problems with pass/fail systems, but the concept of a thesis-oriented system for degrees at all levels makes sense to me. Create and defend a thesis, learn from the criticism along the way. Take more time to engage in material rather then stress about making a grade.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Hkkmr, I said that because I've seen "normal" people [90-110 IQ who load trucks for a living, watch TV for more than 8 hours a day and never read a book] who claim they are smarter than doctors, engineers, architects or whatever

Having a degree isn't necessarily an indication of a high IQ.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...icle697134.ece

Professor Lynn has spent three decades analysing thousands of test results to scrutinise the role of evolution in IQ. He has published his findings in a new book. Britons excel in another area of Professor Lynn’s research. He found that university students had, at 109, the second-highest undergraduate IQs in the world, beaten only by their US counterparts on 110.

So you see there are plenty of 'average' people with degrees as well. Keeping in mind that highest average university student IQ is 110, there is also colleges which give degrees, and countries with lower average university student IQ's as well.

Anyway, in regards to watching TV and not reading books, maybe these guys really are the smartest? They go to work, leave work - enjoy themself, they don't worry about stupid things that plenty of "intelligent" people do - or at least, debate things which in all honesty don't really make any difference - like a lot of the discussions carried out by... us on the forums

[FDG]

I say the weak who don't get degrees (because they didn't have either guts or brain) blame the system. The system have flaws and there are of course, talented-knowledgeable people who never went to the university, and the university is just a step in life. But my point of view is clear: you say you are smart? PROVE IT

*I'm not talking to any particular forum member

mmm but we don't have to pay (or we need to pay a small amount - for me it's like approx. 600 euros-year) for university. I think the matter is different when you need to throw buckets of money & ALSO go through the drudgery.

There is a physics professor at the other university in this city who essentially pass/fails students. You either get As in his class or you fail. The point of this is so that people will worry less about making a grade and more about learning the content. People pass by demonstrating an ability to engage with the material and apply it. If you've learned the material and can demonstrate that you understand the concepts behind it then you get an A.

Right, that's also how PhDs are usually structured.

[Wynch]

Anyways, I might be stupid or some people might call me stupid, but you can be sure my kids are going to be fabulously educated by me personally!

I read an article recently which discussed the merits of homeschooling. The fact that it teaches kids a lot more independent skills is one of the big benefits.

Realistically, the public education system is predominantly about systematic indoctrination of basic skills. Some school boards have recently incorporated some unique approaches to education which are particularly refreshing (for instance giving kids the freedom to write things in grade one without grading spelling or grammar, but focusing on the development of ideas instead).

People's priorities will determine how acceptable different methods are. I for one am in support of teaching kids to think and engage rather than teaching them a series of facts and how to regurgitate.

[mu4]

Anyway, in regards to watching TV and not reading books, maybe these guys really are the smartest? They go to work, leave work - enjoy themself, they don't worry about stupid things that plenty of "intelligent" people do - or at least, debate things which in all honesty don't really make any difference - like a lot of the discussions carried out by... us on the forums

Watching TV typically increases IQ so does most of the things people say are bad for you like the internet.

But there is a level of indoctrination but also indoctrination resistance that occurs when one gains by watching TV and pursuing new Media as well as any avenue of information.

Indoctrination has an important trait which people think is bad, but is good, it makes people work really hard at some menial task with high reliability.

[Wynch]

mmm but we don't have to pay (or we need to pay a small amount - for me it's like approx. 600 euros-year) for university. I think the matter is different when you need to throw buckets of money & ALSO go through the drudgery.

That's a good point. A lot of North Americans (especially Americans) get annoyed with the amount of money they have to pay in order to invest in an experience that tends to amount to little pay off in the perceived improvement of their skills. Especially when you're forced to go greatly in debt for a piece of paper that only has abstract implications like "You can finish what you start."