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Thread: Comments on INFj-ESTj duality

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    Default Comments on INFj-ESTj duality

    Today, someone brought to my attention why duals don't attract one another.

    Differences is functions between dual types make each look odd to the other. For example the characteristic empathetic, open, and easily talkative nature of INFj woman may look to an ESTj mate as invitation for other men to sleep with her. These gestures of empathetic nature of INFj character and their need to speak to others and help them can be construed for a lot of the wrong signs which are not appealing for the ESTj male at first glance. Seemingly immodest, the ESTj will hesitate to approach such a person for a long term interaction. Getting to know one another and stepping past the first glance will allow duals to get to know their "true" selves intimately and understand they truly are made for one another.

    INFj's are openly communicative even with people who's intentions are not honorable because they love all people and see the good intentions of others first. Because they do not make outright comments like "You will have to try harder then that to sleep with me", because they don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, they don't look like an attractive person to their dual.

    Airborne did state that he gets upset that the girl, the one I typed as INFj, speaks to any person who he thinks are out to have sex with her. INFj character is such that they will not state outwardly that as Minde said to Airborne that it will take him a lot harder to get to sleep with her. Please observe from their interaction how it is different from the one INFj would give out at first glance....




    Originally Posted by Airborne
    Thank you for your point here Maritsa. I see there is some disagreement among members on Minde´s type.

    Do I see some jealousy here Maritsa? Don´t be worried honey, I and Minde... it was just a one-night stand. It won´t last long because she´s ISFP. So don´t worry my dear. lol.

    MINDE:
    It wasn't even that. You'd have to work a lot harder to get me than just show up, call yourself an ESTj, and post a few times. And I definitely don't go as easy as one night stands.


    INFj will not say this outright because they don't want to hurt their approacher's feelings.
    For these reasons, other types sound more attracting to ESTj then their own dual until they get to know them better.

    Best way to attract your duals is to learn and understand your outside behaviors and what impressions they are making on onlookers.

    Conflictor's easily attract one another because they beg or ask for functions of one another that is seemingly easy to provide but in the long run these constant providing begins to wear on the individual and establishes conflicts.
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 04-09-2010 at 08:48 PM.

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    Maritsa, you need some sleep and rest because you are an introvert. Please take this advice from your activator or dual, since your typing of me as ISTp. I value Si so that means that I want you to rest. You have worked yourself too hard in this forum. Please, for the love of God (you love God don't you?) take a break from the forum maybe. You don't need to post so much... Rest... It's for your own good. Maybe you might choose to just post once a day, instead 10-20 times a day, that's a great start.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VixenDogFox View Post
    Lobo, are you ISTp? Because my ISTp little brother loves wolves, too...
    (Shhh... I'm trying to make Maritsa go on a break here , I'm INFj)

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    I agree. Maritsa needs to rest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobo View Post
    Maritsa, you need some sleep and rest because you are an introvert. Please take this advice from your activator or dual, since your typing of me as ISTp. I value Si so that means that I want you to rest. You have worked yourself too hard in this forum. Please, for the love of God (you love God don't you?) take a break from the forum maybe. You don't need to post so much... Rest... It's for your own good. Maybe you might choose to just post once a day, instead 10-20 times a day, that's a great start.
    I completely agree.

    Of note, people in the manic phase of bipolar have a decreased need for sleep, are hyperproductive, have pressured speech (often coming out nonsensically). So, fits very well and now that we know that about Maritsa, things make a LOT more sense. I think what we need to do is stop responding to her.
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    well , what she said about my opinion about that INFJ girl and her attitude is true, it does look like she´s just too open, I think, anything between a whore who has already slept with half of university men and a very egocentric girl who delights in having men feeding her ego ,so lets any man approach her. Both options are unacceptable for me and i think this is valid for ESTjs in general.

    I also have heard that she finds me too full of myself, which definitely I am not, and somewhat like Minde has described me, she finds me a little too savage, I guess my physical movements, my way of talking, everything is too masculine for that little pink flower to handle in her little head, so she gets somewhat afraid of me (which is lovely, so feminine).

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Airborne View Post
    well , what she said about my opinion about that INFJ girl and her attitude is true, it does look like she´s just too open, I think, anything between a whore who has already slept with half of university men and a very egocentric girl who delights in having men feeding her ego ,so lets any man approach her. Both options are unacceptable for me and i think this is valid for ESTjs in general.

    I also have heard that she finds me too full of myself, which definitely I am not, and somewhat like Minde has described me, she finds me a little too savage, I guess my physical movements, my way of talking, everything is too masculine for that little pink flower to handle in her little head, so she gets somewhat afraid of me (which is lovely, so feminine).
    I thought that way of my duals too, that they were too full of themselves and too savage, until I learned to VI, and discovered that one of my close cousins was my dual; then I understood that this was like a cover up, much like how INFj looks to others at first site. My ESTj cousin is very emotional and very kind. She does have the strong tendency to cut relations she doesn't want to let close to her, and is very flirtatious, but that's just flirting. The more I learned about my duals the more I accept them for who they are and have found that the element in them that I need is not an excuse for me to change them, but a gift that is made for me.

    I used to be very afraid of them, knowing how saft they would cut me out and yes it has made me much more removed then I like to be, and very scared. I am trying to work with that, emotionally.
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 04-10-2010 at 05:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VixenDogFox View Post
    You might want to consider that ESTj is NOT your dual. Just a thought...
    ESTj and I have a perfect understanding and chemistry.

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    sounds like Maritsa is trying too hard to relate to ESTj's, using socionics theory.

    Duality works whether or not one knows socionics. It's effortless and just happens even if you dont want it to.

    Maritsa, what you describe as your feelings with your "supposed" duals doesn't sound like the way duality happens at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    sounds like Maritsa is trying too hard to relate to ESTj's, using socionics theory.

    Duality works whether or not one knows socionics. It's effortless and just happens even if you dont want it to.

    Maritsa, what you describe as your feelings with your "supposed" duals doesn't sound like the way duality happens at all.
    That is more characteristic of other intertype relations because they are a lot easier to start. Dual relations take work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    Conflictor's easily attract one another because they beg or ask for functions of one another that is seemingly easy to provide but in the long run these constant providing begins to wear on the individual and establishes conflicts.
    While reading this a question came into my mind. It`s a bit out of context, I hope nobody will mind...

    Is it common to feel very much attracted to your conflictor`s personality while never wanting to get closer to them?
    An unfulfilled desire from the beginning you could say... It feels like approximation would cause alienation at the same time. Like living in too diffrent worlds, you will never meet completely..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sasha View Post
    While reading this a question came into my mind. It`s a bit out of context, I hope nobody will mind...

    Is it common to feel very much attracted to your conflictor`s personality while never wanting to get closer to them?
    An unfulfilled desire from the beginning you could say... It feels like approximation would cause alienation at the same time. Like living in too diffrent worlds, you will never meet completely..
    With my conflictor, ESTp, they have no concerns about time, so they don't wait for the right time to act when in pursuit of their partner, making them seem very desirable because they quickly will put me at the center of adoration and not waste any time to establish a relationship. This is because ESTp's have Ni in their 5th block (dual seeking) therefore they act quickly and strategically to get the prize, the win and they often do, but that is hasty and not as careful as my duals, the ESTj's who have Ni in their polr (a very dangerous spot to have Ni in when determining the right time to act on a relationship).

    Unfortunately, INFj is very confident about time and likes to not waste it and will not be as patient for their dual and therefore, missing the chance for duality, because he was too uncertain and didn't act quickly enough for her. INFj is task completer and deadline driven.

    Because of this quality of my dual pairing, I have to be patient and wait for my dual to be ready to make that move; it seems to take a lot of time and my patience wears thin.

    Other dual pairs face other problems depending on what is in the Polr.

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    I would like to just add that semi-duals attract one another.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    Thank you for answers, aixelsyd and Maritsa.


    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes View Post
    I would like to just add that semi-duals attract one another.
    Do you think they would attract each other in the way I told above?

    edit
    I`m also wondering if it`s more likely to be attracted to one`s conflictor or semi-dual than to dual... ?
    Last edited by anou; 04-10-2010 at 09:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes View Post
    I would like to just add that semi-duals attract one another.
    I attest greatly to that.

    I think semi-duals are easier to spot too. They are less "ordinary," so to speak, compared to my duals. For example. . .it took just one post (about the Mongolian restaurant) for Mune to touch my heart.

    A more concrete example would be my first crush ever, in elementary school, who i just figured out was likely SEI. He actually asked me to be his girlfriend in the 6th grade. And after 2 years of crushing on him, can you believe I turned him down :frown:. I didn't really. . .he just totally caught me by surprise, and I just didn't know what to say (and I didn't think my mom would let me have a boyfriend), so I said "I'll think about it. . ." kind of hoping that he would ask me again. He never did. Instead he went off in search of other girlfriends. And he spent high school being a very quiet, brooding guy (may have been that way just around me don't know--he had always been a very smiley, jokey guy). By that time i'd moved on to other crushes, though. It wasn't until I was in college that I suddenly realized i'd broken his heart and probably badly. I felt immense guilt ever since and had on several occasions over about 7 years thought of trying to track him down to let him know what happened back then. Miraculously, I ended up running into him about a year and half ago. He had actually spotted me at a coffee shop, recognized me, and got my attention! Turns out, he'd been a Ph.D. student the entire time I'd been a med student in the SAME institution. And our paths had never crossed for some reason. What came as a great comfort to me in that sudden reunion was seeing him happy, back to his bright self, (he had recently gotten married to a girl I think is an ILE, so his dual), and just having the opportunity of letting him know that I consider him a friend. It really felt like closure to me. The twisting turns of fate.

    Ah life. . .
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    That is more characteristic of other intertype relations because they are a lot easier to start. Dual relations take work.

    Maritsa, duality takes work in the sense of reaching out and making yourself vulnerable to help the connection materialize. The attractiveness and your actual use of the functions shouldn't take much work--that part should be effortless. If you are working hard to "cultivate" as you say, certain functions so as to attract a type, that means that you are trying to not be yourself. This means that this is not your dual and/or you are trying to fit into a type that is not yours.

    In other words, duality takes work to start perhaps, but shouldn't take much work to produce mutual attraction.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sasha View Post
    Thank you for answers, aixelsyd and Maritsa.




    Do you think they would attract each other in the way I told above?

    edit
    I`m also wondering if it`s more likely to be attracted to one`s conflictor or semi-dual than to dual... ?
    I'm wondering the same thing about conflictors. I guess I have some idea of a couple conflictors that I've come across in my life. One of the people I suspect were LSIs was a roommate I was assigned to for a year. I was initially excited because we'd met previously during a group get-together for this program and she seemed cool and friendly. Maybe I should have figured it was going to turn sour, when I called her up to figure out what each of us is going to be bring and plan our utilities, etc, and the first thing she says to me in an annoyed tone is "yeah i was supposed to get a 1 bedroom, I'm going to have to call so-and-so to get that changed." Well turns out only married couples were eligible for the 1 bedroom apts, so she had to resign herself to being stuck with me. Well, she moves in and I'm still looking forward to having a fun time being roommates, trying to keep things friendly, and well, she is too. . .But every so often she would like smirk, or make a snide chuckle to something I would say as if what I said was stupid or ridiculous. That would also happen when I would accidentally do something clumsy. She actually ridiculed me a few times on those occasions (like once when I was holding a bit too many things in my hands and a cup with a tiny drop of orange juice tipped over in my fingers and spilled onto the carpet. Some of our mutual friends were around, and she literally pointed her index finger at me and belittled me for that. :frown:

    She also made sure to establish herself as a "neat freak" early on. Now, she wasn't REALLY a neat freak. She was actually pretty darned messy. She just liked being in a clean house and wanted to make it so that I would be doing all the cleaning, because heck, she said she's a neat freak so it has to all be my mess. And that's exactly what ended up happening. She would constantly walk around fuming and snapping under her breath that this was dirty, that wasn't swept, the garbage wasn't taken out, and giving me the cold shoulder. But she would never do those things. So about halfway through the year, I noticed that's what she was doing, and we had this big falling out. I put a stop to the injustice by making a schedule to delineate cleaning responsibilities for both of us on a weekly basis. That resolved this particular conflict but we lived out the rest of the year in pretty cold relations and kept our distance as much as we could. When my mom (who I'm pretty sure is SEE) came to visit a few times, they got along pretty well, and my mom actually thought positively of her (to my utter annoyance--I felt practically betrayed!). Thinking back, and using what I know about LSIs so far, I am pretty darned sure this roommate from hell was an LSI. So, this is a portrait of a conflicting relationship. Initially attractive but progressively repulsive to the point of conflict and hatred.

    and yes to reiterate, I do think semi-duals tend to be more instantly attractive than duals.
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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes View Post
    I would like to just add that semi-duals attract one another.
    Whatever.
    You're full of it.

    ISFj's don't look a thing like INFj's and because of their cold external nature they don't look or act a thing like we do, but what would you know right? You think dirt is your dual.

    I have NEVER found a semi dual that with all confidence I can say that I have a shred of attraction for, from a personal point of view, but I'm sure you consider that to be not of real value.

    The INFj character is HONEST (extremely so). But over the PM you say we are cheaters? Seriously, you are twisted.
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 04-29-2010 at 08:13 PM.

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    I've found myself attracted to my semi-dual. In a way their Ne can initially be more noticable. Ever hear an intelligent ENTp talk about theoretical physics? Now that's sexy.

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    I find that I am attracted to semi-duals. I think semi-duals definitely attract each other.

    I dont' understand you in how black/white your thinking is, Maritsa. Just because one person attracts people and is attracted to peole of one type doesn't mean he/she might not also be attracted to and/or attract people of other types as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    I've found myself attracted to my semi-dual. In a way their Ne can initially be more noticable. Ever hear an intelligent ENTp talk about theoretical physics? Now that's sexy.
    How long did that last?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    How long did that last?
    Attraction has nothing to do with how long something lasts. It's about an initial feeling, about attracting someone to you, not holding onto anything.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mariella View Post
    I find that I am attracted to semi-duals. I think semi-duals definitely attract each other.

    I dont' understand you in how black/white your thinking is, Maritsa. Just because one person attracts people and is attracted to peole of one type doesn't mean he/she might not also be attracted to and/or attract people of other types as well.
    I was venting; thanks for comming here; I knew a comment like that would bring you here...lol.

    I feel better...what is it with my duals on the forum? Except for one and two other's I emailed who are not posting, I can't find a footing with them?

    Maybe you and Cyclops can help me understand that.

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    I dated my semi-dual for maybe 6 months. And went on a few dates w/ other ISFps where it didn't work out, but I always felt really warmly towards them from the start. As in "awww, blush, can't believe he said that...hehehe" etc. Their Si is really obvious. Where as in ISTps I usually see the Te first or sometimes think they're another type. I never had big conflicts w/ the ISFps, but probably because my mom is my semi-dual also so I might just be better at avoiding it. Or maybe didn't get close enough to them for it to happen.

    My ISTp ex bought a drink for a female semi-dual, ENTp (which I happened to catch him doing) which was one of the reasons that eventually contributed to the train-wreck of a break-up we had.

    So in conclusion, yes, there is a draw to the semi-dual.
    Hi! I'm an ENFP. :-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by jewels View Post
    I dated my semi-dual for maybe 6 months. And went on a few dates w/ other ISFps where it didn't work out, but I always felt really warmly towards them from the start. As in "awww, blush, can't believe he said that...hehehe" etc. Their Si is really obvious. Where as in ISTps I usually see the Te first or sometimes think they're another type. I never had big conflicts w/ the ISFps, but probably because my mom is my semi-dual also so I might just be better at avoiding it. Or maybe didn't get close enough to them for it to happen.

    My ISTp ex bought a drink for a female semi-dual, ENTp (which I happened to catch him doing) which was one of the reasons that eventually contributed to the train-wreck of a break-up we had.

    So in conclusion, yes, there is a draw to the semi-dual.
    And you too...I knew my comment would bring you here as well...just funny, when you know people you just know...

    anyway...I don't find Ronald Ragan to be a smashingly looking guy at all...if that's and example of my semi dual, then no thank you for me.

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    Well, let's see. He's dead. And he was really really old during your life. Maybe that's part of why you dont' find him attractive. People find other people attractive or not attractive for lots of non-socionic reasons.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    How long did that last?
    Knowing Cyclops, it probably lasted all night long.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Creepy-Cyclops

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    ahahahaha

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    Knowing Cyclops, it probably lasted all night long.
    Didn't I ask you to cut me off?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mariella View Post
    Well, let's see. He's dead. And he was really really old during your life. Maybe that's part of why you dont' find him attractive. People find other people attractive or not attractive for lots of non-socionic reasons.
    lol; I find your humor very warm and funny. But, look at that face, it just doesn't call out "manly man" to me...and he's very skinny; I like a lot of meat on a man..no offense to N type...

    He walks funny...and he wabbles.

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    He's still old there

    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    People of any given type will have different sizes.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

  33. #33
    Creepy-Cyclops

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    lol; I find your humor very warm and funny. But, look at that face, it just doesn't call out "manly man" to me...and he's very skinny; I like a lot of meat on a man..no offense to N type...

    He walks funny...and he wabbles.
    Well, you can't look at a photo or even a TV clip and experience them interacting with you with their Te, ie just being themselves.

    Even then there's been semi duals who I wouldn't have said fit a generally physically attractive look for me, not like I want to jump into bed with them or something, but i've still found myself drawn to and enjoying their company, and that is attraction too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    How did you dualize? Or at what point did you feel that it was a whole?
    I think you've romanticized the concept of dualization to the point that I don't even know what you're looking for. Also, I had been married to my husband for ages before I ever heard of socionics or the concept. It certainly wans't something I had my eyes open for.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

  35. #35
    Creepy-Cyclops

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    Yeah, fwiw I think knowing too much about socionics can actually complicate things. I've found myself attracted to my duals and had dating relations with them before I heard about socionics.

    Thinking too much about all this stuff can just ruin the spontaneity of interaction with someone. I think it's more practical now that I know about it, just not to overcook it, and from my perspective don't see why wouldn't work with others either. At least - maybe talk about it some more here on this forum, as that's basically what the forum is about, but don't think about everything when in life, put it to one side, eh, I suppose a dentist would learn not to analyse everyone teeth when they smile, a gynecologist...urm..

    EG, say I meet someone and I identify them as my dual. Does this mean that I can somehow start reciting my knowledge about some crap or other and talk try hard to talk about what I had for dinner last night and expect them to have some sort of magical seeking function affect on them? Eh, no, just talk to them.

  36. #36
    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mariella View Post
    I think you've romanticized the concept of dualization to the point that I don't even know what you're looking for. Also, I had been married to my husband for ages before I ever heard of socionics or the concept. It certainly wans't something I had my eyes open for.
    I can be very romantic, but I know what I want in a man.

    I love a strong person who's very light hearted. I need a man who lets me be me; gentle and not tells me to toughen up for my own good...agh exhausting. Who can recognize that I don't need a serious moment, who just knows I am stressed..
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 04-29-2010 at 09:29 PM.

  37. #37
    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Airborne, honey, you're not LIE.

    I believe that Smilingeyes is LIE
    While I am at it I might as well toss Ryu in there too...

    LIE do not have humanitarian values and talk about a drive to gamble and risk luck and impulsiveness of the Gamma quadrant...

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    Airborne, honey, you're not LIE.

    I believe that Smilingeyes is LIE
    While I am at it I might as well toss Ryu in there too...

    LIE do not have humanitarian values and talk about a drive to gamble and risk luck and impulsiveness of the Gamma quadrant...
    That is an emotional, impulsive comment from Maritsa because I've been rejecting her attempts to control me. Now she's starting the typical counter-claim of "you're not my dual" to save face. This might continue for a long while. I'm sorry if this causes disruption on the forum. I hope you others will forgive us for the interruption.

    Maritsa, it's not ethical to continue on this path of attack and attempt to damage other people. Please stop. You are causing yourself at least as much harm as you are to others. This is not behaviour worthy of an INFj, please compose yourself.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

  39. #39
    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes View Post
    That is an emotional, impulsive comment from Maritsa because I've been rejecting her attempts to control me. Now she's starting the typical counter-claim of "you're not my dual" to save face. This might continue for a long while. I'm sorry if this causes disruption on the forum. I hope you others will forgive us for the interruption.

    Maritsa, it's not ethical to continue on this path of attack and attempt to damage other people. Please stop. You are causing yourself at least as much harm as you are to others. This is not behaviour worthy of an INFj, please compose yourself.
    I don't want to control you. You're not my puppet. Explain the differences between ENTj and ESTj for Airborne, who I don't want to leave feeling confused about his type.

    I have already VI-d him as my dual, and he's had interaction with a dual...who I also VI-d as INFj.

  40. #40
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    In Maritsa's world, "being dualized" means that you are someone she thinks might be LSE and thus responds favorably to her.

    Her entire opinion of me is dependent upon how favorably I respond to her claims, regardless of whatever they are.


    Yes, now SE and I will be labeled as other than her dual. Just like she tried to call me SLE when I originally voiced strong opinions against her. I'm sure everyone can see through this on their own, but I'm just restating it all again.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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