Martisa and EII

[Slacker]

Just want to do a roll call and see what people think. I know some people think she is. I don't know how many.

[thePirate]

I have just gotten started and stimulating Ryu's Ne 6th function

[crazedrat]

I have just gotten started and stimulating Ryu's Ne 6th function

it's like Ryus clitoris

[crazedrat]

she is EII. I understand the dignity of delta is disturbed by her.. if we had an INFp this embarassing I'd try to disown them too.

[Jarno]

It's funny... so many people want to have maritsa banned because she is bad at typing. But at the same time, many of these same people think that she is not an EII.
Maybe they should ban themselves for being bad at typing.

[crazedrat]

she reminds me of mcnew, who was also INFj.

[krieger]

I'm mostly opposed to calling her a typical INFj. Her level of randomness and quirkiness is uncharacteristic of that type.

[somavision]

To me Maritsa ignores what others try to say about themselves or mis-interprets their information and makes uncalled for judgments. She seems to demand that the rest of mankind should fashion its mode of existence after her own somewhat prejudiced person who is fairly intolerant of any opinions differing from her own. I see her as a source of conflict and think that she in fact enjoys this on some level as she constantly pushes for it. She has trouble believing that EII are not perfect like she always likes to state that she herself is. I also feel that she lacks in looking at the whole picture. There is trouble believing that other people here on the forum could possibly be EII and I have in fact read her posting at least once that she thinks she is the only one.

We obviously have a very negative type relationship (I am talking "to the extreme" in my opinion). Maybe this is enhanced by our enneagram types? Though I do not feel this with any other enneagram 2's here on the forum, in particular I think of VixenFoxDog who I think I read is enneagram 2 and is a beautiful person.
Enneagram Type Two with Enneagram Type Five
Enneagram Twos and Fives are double opposites, as it were—a people person versus a loner, a feeling type with a thinking type.

I would like to think that there is some sort of reason for her behaviour such as mental illness and as she has posted that she suffers from bipolar then this is a very believable likelihood.http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...i-suzzy-6.html (Post 112)
Zoloft a seretonin inhibitor was the only form of antidepression to help me even though I do have "clinical" bipolar as all INFj's do

I raise my hand for changing my type if she is one .

This explains alot. I've a bipolar friend who had an episode during which she thought she was the messiah and that God was communicating with her through green jelly. Oddly enough I think my friend might be EII, maybe IEI. Personally I think that the disorder can heavily obscure the type of the individual.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[crazedrat]

^probably because you're so often wrong.
bipolar disorder does not explain maritsas personality. It accounts for the highs and lows yes, but something has to explain the inability to think on a basic level. I still think she is schizophrenic

[silverchris9]

Maritsa is EII. Like crazed said, if she were beta, I'd probably be trying to kick her out too, but there's clear evidence for Te valuing over Ti valuing, and yet she's obviously not a logical type. My evidence for Te valuing over Ti valuing is the fact that she will never get into a discussion about what "makes sense" what statements are and are not contradictory, and when the discussion turns that way, she runs. Rather, she focuses on "facts", (questionable) statistics, etc. She's a Te valuer through and through. That leaves EII, IEE, ESI, SEE. Of those four, EII, IEE, and ESI are all possibilities (I think not-SEE is pretty obvious). To narrow it down from there, rationality (or IJ temperment) seems more likely than irrationality (or EP temperment). That leaves EII and ESI. I think that the more you pressure Maritsa, the more her logic breaks down, which to me points to TiSe superid. I think an ESI would be more likely to argue better under pressure, whereas Maritsa obviously argues worse under pressure. But maybe those are more spurious points. Regardless, I think we have to assume that she is a Te-valuing ethical type, because the clear evidence is that she values Te over Ti, and she at least talks constantly about Fi-related things (I really see her as thinking via "bonds of obligation" and such), although I can see the complaint that she has not been extraordinarily effective in achieving the desired emotional response from people on this forum or in building any particularly powerful bonds.

EDIT: Also, seriously deltas, you can get over having one unpopular person in your quadra. Betas have infinitely worse people in our quadra, though granted the sort of large-scale forum disagreements are centering more on Maritsa rather than any beta who posts on this forum. But besides this forum, lets think of all the horrible horrible people that are betas. Deltas are getting of *light* with Maritsa.

[FDG]

Just because she's not super-duper american y'all think she's crazy. You should meet the women from the interior of Basilicata, it's full of Maritsa-alikes and probably an american would be considered crazy over there. If I didn't have a girlfriend and she didn't live 10000 kms from here and she were less crazy I'd probably date her.

[Marie84]

The pressure you're referring to is not really Se related as she has not been harassed (maybe mocked) or had another form of aggression used against her.
She becomes defensive when the accuracy of her information is questioned, which if anything is a hit at a weak logical function. You could make an argument that it's Ti super-ego or Te, which I suppose is where the contention in her typing lays

Maritsa relies little on factual information and more so on a clear system, almost a dogmatic version of Socionics, that types people based solely on VI and a misconstrued interpretation of what other people have stated, in which she will than quickly characterize people into said type. This, IMU, is pretty anti-Te

If anything, I'm starting to think she could be an unhealthy EIE who is seeking someone who will reassure her of her ideology rather than challenge it's accuracy. Not to mention than when stating what she thinks LSE's are like it was almost verbatim of a Beta ST profile

Anyways, I don't think Maritsa is an evil person. I think she deeply believes in what she's doing here and her ideology and that she likely feels bullied since she is essentially on her own in terms of her beliefs. But that's what happens when you become an extremist of anything, you're going to create a lot of opposition

[Jarno]

actually there's only one thing that is 'crazy' about her, and that's her low self criticism. She thinks her typings are 100% right.

For the rest she is just a typical EII on a mission. Also her VI is of a prototypical EII. People who don't recognize that only reveal that they haven't met many female EII's.

[silverchris9]

The pressure you're referring to is not really Se related as she has not been harassed (maybe mocked) or had another form of aggression used against her.

I know, it's not. It's that she perceives it as such. That seems to make sense for Se-polr: perceiving aggression when it's not actually there, because of a heightened sensitivity to aggression. And actually some people have been pretty aggressive with her (mostly betas, like some of her discussions with pirate).

She becomes defensive when the accuracy of her information is questioned, which if anything is a hit at a weak logical function. You could make an argument that it's Ti super-ego or Te, which I suppose is where the contention in her typing lays

Maritsa relies little on factual information and more so on a clear system, almost a dogmatic version of Socionics, that types people based solely on VI and a misconstrued interpretation of what other people have stated, in which she will than quickly characterize people into said type. This, IMU, is pretty anti-Te

I disagree. I think that Te is about correspondence to the facts, and Ti is about internal coherence. Maritsa does not have an internally coherent system, she has a list of facts: EIIs do x, SEEs have facial structure y. If you look at how she expresses herself, she doesn't talk in terms of a Ti system where information goes in (inputs) and conclusions come out (outputs). Rather, she talks in terms of facts: You are [insert type here]. "Why?" Because [insert type here] does [insert action here]. It's a subtle distinction, but it's just the kind that separates Te from Ti or any external function from its internal counterpart. Maritsa wants her thinking to be external, reference to external facts, rather than making any reference to an internal idea of "does this makes sense, what do the rules of logic say, how does this relate to unchanging universal principles?"

Dogamtism or lack thereof is not really type related. The *kind* of dogmatism is type related. Beta dogmatism is related to Ni and Ti, in my experience. Ti says what the unchanging laws/universal rules of "how things in general work" are, and Ni expresses the vision, the overarching ideal which cannot be questioned. Delta dogmatism is related to Te and Fi, in my experience. Te lays down the facts, Fi explains what one person's obligations are to another (as a result of the relationship between them).

Also, that description isn't really Beta ST, except maybe the line about being in control of your life, but even then, Beta STs don't really control their SOs lives unless they're unhealthy. The thing about being dry and expressing themselves in an unemotional way is much more delta ST (Weak and unvalued Fe) than beta ST (weak, but valued Fe). I'd say it was more a generic oversimplified ST description.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

I actually thought she could be ISFj

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...9-post136.html

However smilex made a case for INFj which sounded pretty good.

So, I dunno what type she is.

She's not a typical anything really.

I *suppose* I could see all these ridiculous connections she makes as Ne with terrible logic to help it, but, I dunno for sure.

Maybe time will tell.

I think it would help if she listened to people, but I don't know who she listens to, anyone?

I remember her stating before that she is stubborn, and I can see that. I also remember that she stated that her views on people haven't changed since she was something like 7 years old....so the stubborness mixed with the quite possible immature view of people makes her difficult to type regardless of anything.

Eh, she seems to listen to Rod Nor.... (the guy that wrote the book), wonder how he managed it...

Well, some F type anyway, I think at least that is obvious. I keep my options open for now.

Actually, I can't really see her being INFp, even a "difficult" one. Consider perhaps how strrrng used to act long time in the past - his way of 'acting up' was more defiant, as if really looking for Se, I don't the Maritsa is quite like that.

Edit: I could come up with saying her behaviour is infantile in the obvious sense of the word, and that her reliance on Rod Nor... (because it's a published book) has signs of aristocracy (Beta or Delta), but the first... maybe, the second.. I don't really buy that. (although I tend to think delta J types are probably more 'aristocratic' than their P quadra half).

[Suz]

Oh, she's bipolar?? Well that certainly explains a lot, then.

I don't have bipolar, it was a misdiagnosis. It was more like extreme depression.

This statement reflects the lack of insight that patients with mental illness often manifest.

So does this mean you're not taking your meds?

She does act a little manic on the boards, true.

[Suz]

I actually thought she could be ISFj

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...9-post136.html

However smilex made a case for INFj which sounded pretty good.

So, I dunno what type she is.

She's not a typical anything really.

. . .

If she didn't have underlying mental illness, I definitely agree ISFj (Fi, Se, Te-valuing), but if she's an untreated bipolar, i dont think we can pinpoint a type, because we would be trying to type her condition, not her baseline state of mind.

So, I think we've gotten at the root of the problem.

[Slacker]

Maritsa is EII. Like crazed said, if she were beta, I'd probably be trying to kick her out too, but there's clear evidence for Te valuing over Ti valuing, and yet she's obviously not a logical type. My evidence for Te valuing over Ti valuing is the fact that she will never get into a discussion about what "makes sense" what statements are and are not contradictory, and when the discussion turns that way, she runs. Rather, she focuses on "facts", (questionable) statistics, etc. She's a Te valuer through and through. That leaves EII, IEE, ESI, SEE. Of those four, EII, IEE, and ESI are all possibilities (I think not-SEE is pretty obvious). To narrow it down from there, rationality (or IJ temperment) seems more likely than irrationality (or EP temperment). That leaves EII and ESI. I think that the more you pressure Maritsa, the more her logic breaks down, which to me points to TiSe superid. I think an ESI would be more likely to argue better under pressure, whereas Maritsa obviously argues worse under pressure. But maybe those are more spurious points. Regardless, I think we have to assume that she is a Te-valuing ethical type, because the clear evidence is that she values Te over Ti, and she at least talks constantly about Fi-related things (I really see her as thinking via "bonds of obligation" and such), although I can see the complaint that she has not been extraordinarily effective in achieving the desired emotional response from people on this forum or in building any particularly powerful bonds.

EDIT: Also, seriously deltas, you can get over having one unpopular person in your quadra. Betas have infinitely worse people in our quadra, though granted the sort of large-scale forum disagreements are centering more on Maritsa rather than any beta who posts on this forum. But besides this forum, lets think of all the horrible horrible people that are betas. Deltas are getting of *light* with Maritsa.

I belive she's ESI. She does value Te, but she doesnt' have Ne in her ego block by any stretch of the imagination.

[Aiss]

I think most accurate typing for Maritsa was Airborne's - enneagram 2 disintegrating to 8. ESI was my perception of her. It seems to work unless there's an illness involved.

I know, it's not. It's that she perceives it as such. That seems to make sense for aSe-polr: perceiving aggression when it's not actually there, because of a heightened sensitivity to aggression. And actually some people have been pretty aggressive with her (mostly betas, like some of her discussions with pirate).

This doesn't seem like Se-PoLR to me. LIIs and EIIs here tend to go for peaceful and open-minded discussions rather than arguments. Maritsa backs out of an argument only if she knows she's going to lose, but never admits to being wrong; if someone is nice and lets her type them ("acknowledges her authority", in a way), she's likely to allow the person be their type, or a similar one; yet when someone suggest she has lost, she'll fight back past the point of reason. The perfect example is what happened with Minde - when she patiently went through the steps of Maritsa's typing method, she was finally allowed to be EII. Yet as soon as people started congratulating Minde on finally winning, Maritsa changed her mind and insisted she's SEI.

It's pride, not oversensitivity. Se-creative, not Se-PoLR.

I disagree. I think that Te is about correspondence to the facts, and Ti is about internal coherence. Maritsa does not have an internally coherent system, she has a list of facts: EIIs do x, SEEs have facial structure y. If you look at how she expresses herself, she doesn't talk in terms of a Ti system where information goes in (inputs) and conclusions come out (outputs). Rather, she talks in terms of facts: You are [insert type here]. "Why?" Because [insert type here] does [insert action here]. It's a subtle distinction, but it's just the kind that separates Te from Ti or any external function from its internal counterpart. Maritsa wants her thinking to be external, reference to external facts, rather than making any reference to an internal idea of "does this makes sense, what do the rules of logic say, how does this relate to unchanging universal principles?"

These aren't facts, these are generalizations. She draws hasty conclusions and says "You are [something]". This is a conclusion, and she has to be asked for evidence to back it up. IMO it's a weak super-ego Ti mixed with Te-valuing - she wants to reference facts, but can't really sift through them to find relevant ones, and consciously makes generalizations which are just logical enough not to be totally random, and don't form a consistent system. The strength beyond the statements (same difference as between LSI and LII) comes from Se - rather than be aware of many possibilities, she focuses on enforcing one.

Also, if she used Te she wouldn't be ExI.

Also, that description isn't really Beta ST, except maybe the line about being in control of your life, but even then, Beta STs don't really control their SOs lives unless they're unhealthy. The thing about being dry and expressing themselves in an unemotional way is much more delta ST (Weak and unvalued Fe) than beta ST (weak, but valued Fe). I'd say it was more a generic oversimplified ST description.

I think no type controls their SOs lives unless unhealthy.

LIEs aren't known for being particularly emotional, I think. Maritsa clearly reserves the bossiness for herself, even though she claims not to.

[Aiss]

I belive she's ESI. She does value Te, but she doesnt' have Ne in her ego block by any stretch of the imagination.

I didn't see it before posting - I agree, claiming open-mindedness in one sentence and stating there's only one correct way of typing in the next one don't sound like Ne.

[Jarno]

I didn't see it before posting - I agree, claiming open-mindedness in one sentence and stating there's only one correct way of typing in the next one don't sound like Ne.

I don't know if you can see it this litteraly.

Would this imply that a logical type cannot talk about humans, and an ethical type cannot say that something is logical.

But then again, this is all based on information elements. When trying to apply that abstract theory into practice you're bound to come into grey areas.

[Aiss]

I don't know if you can see it this litteraly.

Would this imply that a logical type cannot talk about humans, and an ethical type cannot say that something is logical.

But then again, this is all based on information elements. When trying to apply that abstract theory into practice you're bound to come into grey areas.

I meant Mariella's post.

I added an example I didn't originally mention because I focused on other IEs.

[Minde]

Just because she's not super-duper american y'all think she's crazy. You should meet the women from the interior of Basilicata, it's full of Maritsa-alikes and probably an american would be considered crazy over there. If I didn't have a girlfriend and she didn't live 10000 kms from here and she were less crazy I'd probably date her.

Hm, this is interesting to me. Could you expand a little on the similarities you see?

[Beautiful sky]

I belive she's ESI. She does value Te, but she doesnt' have Ne in her ego block by any stretch of the imagination.

I have so much Ne, I notice interesting connections between people all the time, I offer possibilities of careers. YOU don't know what Ne is. I make novel connections between concepts and ideas; I can get out of any situation, creatively, better then many lawyers can.

[Beautiful sky]

Following examples are:


Where I notice the hidden potential of Morcheeba:

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...job-today.html

"I have a few suggestions you may enjoy:

-Veterinary Tech-if you like animals-with a license you can make $20/hr
-Teacher-starting at $35k/yr, or you can sub
-If you can bear with the schooling, get a nursing degree, but go and work for the state health department, that way, you won't work in a hospital, but will work for kids and education and get paid 90K per year.
-At the pediatrics department, in a hospital, you can get a job as a clerk, but not seriously hands on medical stuff
-You can go for your BA/BS in Sociology or Psychology and work in a non-profit org and help educate people about sexual/reproductive health and make a good living doing that as well as teach at a collage

You have a wonderful ability to work with people and I think administration jobs would be too boring and annoying for you. But the more freedom you have to make your own plan and action, and ability to work with people and/or be constantly on the move (as in always having to do things), the happier and more fulfilled you will feel."

[Beautiful sky]

Second example:

My contribution to how Ne works...

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...fi-change.html

[Beautiful sky]

My third contribution in Ne...

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...provement.html

[Beautiful sky]

And my Fourth contribution is in noting how one kind of type seems to pick girl avatars when they are men; who except for me here noticed that link?

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...-everyone.html

[Beautiful sky]

Because I can use Ne so easily, many people confuse me for ENTp, but no, I have the ultra Humanitarian drive to be non other then INFj. ENTp's are not humanitarians.

[Aiss]

I have so much Ne, I notice interesting connections between people all the time, I offer possibilities of careers. YOU don't know what Ne is. I make novel connections between concepts and ideas; I can get out of any situation, creatively, better then many lawyers can.

Yeah explain everything to her in little bite size pieces because she can't connect the dots very well; so typical of INFp's. She asked for her words and ideas to be linked to socionics concepts of possible types for her and when I did, she couldn't buy not being EII, well tooo bad sister; you are NOT INFj.

Minde's: Please explain?
Minde's: Please explain, I don't get it!
Minde's: I don't understand, is it possible? a possibility?
Minde's: I am INFj but I want to ban and exclude Maritsa from the forum.

Too bad you claim Se-PoLR, yet insult the intelligence of a person who politely disagrees with you - not to mention twisting their words. Indeed you argue a bit like a stereotypical lawyer - to win, to defeat your opponent.

[somavision]

feisty little minx, filled with self righteous, arrogant, smugness. She builds herself up whilst putting others down, speaks of the hidden potential within others whilst denying the talents of those she speaks to. She condecends and dismisses. She tricks, lies, deflects and ignores. Maritsa inhabits a self absorbed solipcist bubble. Her current attempts to connect to others are pitiful in their superficialty. She will not be able to help others until she gets over herself.

[Aiss]

Yes, good job, that's because INFj's make great lawyers. It says it in Socioniko....

Your search - lawyer site:socioniko.net - did not match any documents.

On the other hand, you accused other EIIs of being "unforgiving" because of what they posted it a thread about cheating. It might interest you that your favorite site claims about INFj that "He does not forgive infidelity."

[Beautiful sky]

Hm, this is interesting to me. Could you expand a little on the similarities you see?

That's my ugly side. It's not as bad as cursing you is it? It might help you to change your signature.

You will have to come to terms with your self and PLEASE WORK ON YOUR CHARACTER.

THANKS.

Especailly on the last part where you are so willing to ban individuals for their special, unique way of thinking and looking at things; that would be from an Ne prespective.

"Minde's: I am INFj but I want to ban and exclude Maritsa from the forum."

What kind of a shameful INFj are you? Is that how you cultivate relationships with people, by making sure that no one is around?

[Suz]

I belive she's ESI. She does value Te, but she doesnt' have Ne in her ego block by any stretch of the imagination.

I WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree with that.

[Suz]

I have so much Ne, I notice interesting connections between people all the time, I offer possibilities of careers. YOU don't know what Ne is. I make novel connections between concepts and ideas; I can get out of any situation, creatively, better then many lawyers can.

Again lack of insight, and wishful thinking (and/or gross misconception of how Ne manifests).

And I feel sorry for the all those students that were victims of your misguided advice. (then again, most likely most of them left your service shaking their heads at your nonsensical advice).

And I have to agree with Aiss and Mariella and what a bunch of others here have said (and I've definitely said this before too), Maritsa demonstrates a lot of Se in her communication, attitude, and interaction with others. Nowhere near how the EII's here behave.

[Beautiful sky]

I WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree with that.

It's not what you can agree with, it's what you can proove and not.

[Aiss]

I did not say I accused other EII of being unforgiving...please copy and post that here as proof.

OK, I looked through that thread - it was merely that only EIIs have unconditional love, the implication being that they would forgive or at least give another chance - seeing as you gave the thread with the most common reply being "break it off with that person" as evidence. If you meant that they wouldn't forgive, it works against your argument.

Enneagram 2 is about those who have unconditional love and that is only in INFj

That kind of phrasing is erroneously narrow ; such is not the case.

Look at that thread where people responded to what would you do if your significant other cheated on you.

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ur-friend.html

[Suz]

I did not say I accused other EII of being unforgiving...please copy and post that here as proof.

Se

[Suz]

It's not what you can agree with, it's what you can proove and not.

Se