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Thread: Delta NFs and Fi change

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    Default Delta NFs and Fi change

    How would you define it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    How would you define it?
    What do you mean by Fi change?

    also because of the definition wikipedia gives me of Fi:

    Fi is responsible for understanding the quality, nature, and proper maintenance of personal relations; makes moral judgments; and aspires to humanism and kindness. Fi has a strong understanding of the social hierarchy and how people feel about each other, their attitudes of like or dislike, enthrallment or disgust, repulsion or attraction, enmity or friendship.

    The proper maintenance of a relationship is to love unconditionally, to provide love, comfort and warmth, to care for without need of any affirmation or praise. Be kind to people, even those who don't have any status. To make sure that people are not banned or excluded from groups because of certain beliefs. To prevent wars, fighting, and arguing. To provide moral support and encourage the success and achievement of all individuals. Encourage people to be good and do good things.

    To not give into petty fears or paranoia. To aspire for closer bonds and humanism.

    From Socioniko "This function is inertial; many emotions are inside such a person, but they do not go outwards, and rather stay “conserved”. Such people are very passionate in evaluating other people, but from outside they seem to be “emotionless”, smiling just as much as etiquette requires. They are good spectators of relations: in a small collective, they very quickly feel who has which relations with whom. They can work with people – as lawyers, pedagogues, etc. However, being so attentive to people's relations, they do not like, even more, they are afraid of “intellectual initiative”, do not like arguing, because it can “break” or just significantly change relations with other people."

    We rarely discuss these feelings that we have about others unless, in my case, my dual. Again attentiveness, conscientiousness are a staple.
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 04-08-2010 at 05:59 PM.

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    I'm thinking that the basic delta Fi pole is interest. Interested vs non-interested. A interest which is held as a factor of interest in something else (like a means to an end) constitutes a motivation. People are motivated or unmotivated, in the general sense.

    What is the term for a change in motivation? How do people gain motivation and lose it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    I'm thinking that the basic delta Fi pole is interest. Interested vs non-interested. A interest which is held as a factor of interest in something else (like a means to an end) constitutes a motivation. People are motivated or unmotivated, in the general sense.

    What is the term for a change in motivation? How do people gain motivation and lose it?
    Hmm VERY interesting question. i will have to ponder this one a bit.

    However, I will comment now that I agree with your thought that delta Fi involves motivation (in part). I seek to be motivated towards something, and I value motivation in others.

    Why is delta Fi motivation? I think its probably because it's Fi blocked with Ne. Ne sees potential and comes up with ideas based on that potential. The idea is what sparks motivation. If it's a doable idea and things progress well and the desired goal is being reached then motivation continues. If the idea doesn't pan out, or seems overwhelming, or just can't be done at the moment, or if the purpose fizzles, then motivation dissipates. I think it's also because Ne & Fi are also involved with valued Si, i.e. I'm hesitant to pursue an idea if it's just going to be wasted effort and fall apart, but I can't always tell in advance.

    I think this is where Si and Te can help Ne and Fi quite a bit. Si and Te can tell how doable something might be, and are equipped with finding the most practical way of materializing the ideas and motivations generated by Ne and Fi.
    Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx

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    I'm not sure there is a word for change in Fi. What would be the word for a single change of motivation? It seems like there is no single term.

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    Delta Ne is potential (at the collective level) and capability (at the case level). Fi and Ne have a relationship in that Fi is desire and Ne is the opportunity to gratify it.

    I believe that a change in Ne would be termed "evolution" or "development". The idea that skills can be development is contrary to notions of natural ability or "talent".

    I believe that EIIs have a feeling of chronic ambivalence to opportunities, and that this ambivalence causes them to seek motivation.
    Last edited by tcaudilllg; 04-09-2010 at 12:52 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    Delta Ne is potential (at the collective level) and capability (at the case level). Fi and Ne have a relationship in that Fi is desire and Ne is the opportunity to gratify it.

    I believe that a change in Ne would be termed "evolution".
    Yes, that is very much true for the case of EII; the other way around for IEE.
    IEE would be evolution by Fi and EII would be Fi by evolution. This may sound like a symantic argument, but really it's very profoundly different.

    If in essence IEE is NeFi then Ne, which is possibilities and alternatives, in generalization of what is going on and developing new and novel concepts, and as well as interesting connections between thing; is such that Ne will change upon new information of values and morals that is part of subjective evaluation.

    EII will subjectively evaluate morals based on new possibilites. The person may have done something good or bad; if it was bad, then the possibility of a certain situation was the cause therefore the EII subjectively evaluates Fi based on Ne.

    Ne is the most important function of an item. Se is it's physical qualities, like color, shape, texture..etc. Ne is the functionality or the maximization of the item/person. It overlooks qualities and concentrates on hidden potential and latent possibilities.

    For Ne, ordinary events provide clues to potentials and possibilities. Ne will hunt for new possibilities as a part of a satisfying process. An example of an ordinary clue is how two SEI men will pick two women to be their avatar, who have similar haircuts, and wear glasses. These similarities are available to Ne because Ne doesn't look at the small things like how individual these two are based on what they say/their words; it's the general feel the connections that make a picture.

    For EII - as new information comes in, will get compared.
    For IEE - as new comes in, will get compared.

    For example:

    EII - Fi is established that killing is wrong because it hurt people and people are valuable. New, Ne, is Bob, a starving person killed for food; Fi says, well BoB is a person and all people are valuable. Killing for food is not as bad as killing for malice. Fi will be evaluated to the point where no one is a real murderer or malicious, because there's so much what if's and what nots to the point that you don't know until you walk in another person's shoes and have lived their life.

    Now, let's look at IEE
    Where in EII it's Fi based on Ne; in IEE it's Ne based on Fi.

    Ne sits there and makes/hunts for constant new possibilities, making so many more connections, latent possibilities, potentials, then I (as an EII) can fathom to do so.

    Information by the form of morals (good/bad) comes in and Ne will evaluate if it/or it has any potential/possibility/ or latent possibility; if not, guess what happends?

    Because Ne is only concerned for it's potential, new, latent possibility, any Fi possibility that has not potential will be......I
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 04-09-2010 at 01:43 AM.

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    Ni establishes that killing is wrong because negative emotions are associated with it. Ni is like to argue that capital punishment is right because it is typically accompanied by positive emotions.

    Fi is established that killing is wrong because it hurt people and people are valuable. New, Ne, is Bob, a starving person killed for food; Fi says, well BoB is a person and all people are valuable. Killing for food is not as bad as killing for malice. Fi will be evaluated to the point where no one is a real murderer or malicious, because there's so much what if's and what nots to the point that you don't know until you walk in another person's shoes and have lived their life.
    This is interesting. What you are arguing here is that Fi rationalizes Ni's judgments until they are stripped of all meaning.

    I suppose that the most change-oriented concept of Fi is "focus".

    • Desire is the motivation to acquire (Te in the context of Fi): "Why did I take it? Because I wanted it."


    This is really tough.

    You can have desire for any element, really. Desire for peace; desire for war; desire for gratification; desire for pleasure; desire for comfort; desire for acceptance and to belong; for knowledge; for status; even for ability. Desire cannot be easily changed: the internal motion which drives it must ebb and be replaced by a new pattern thereof. Desire is the need to control one's own inner dynamics by observing something outside oneself.
    Last edited by tcaudilllg; 04-09-2010 at 04:15 AM.

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    I don't really understand the question me thinks. My "goal" and inclination is probably to reduce the distance of my relationships in general. It does not mean that I will actually do anything about it though, since it requires energy, so it's actually a choice of what people to focus energies on. Becoming close to people is my "survival tactic," it gives me reassurance in being able to withstand hardships in the future, especially emotional since I do feel things rather intensely in some situations and it can debilitate me physically for some time (not caring about how I live, the type of food I eat, etc). My goal is to have a network of people who will be able to cover my six during these times, and I will gladly/naturally do the same to them when they need it. I am confident in my abilities to make someone feel really good inside also, make them feel happy and loved, giving emotional support, but this is something that I don't give freely though. Maybe this is what you mean by "motivation"? Who do I show interest to?

    That's something I've wondered about myself as well really. I sometimes give of myself to people as an experiment to see if they can reciprocate. People who don't do well in the emotional/people area make me curious and I want to see if I can change them. It's like I'm poking someone with a stick and seeing their reaction, but then they become a personal project and I get attached, and I don't like failure. At least I've noticed this as a theme in my irl friendships with delta STs. It feels like you are helping to build a robot that will do "good," and that needs to be taught how to help you when you are down because they can't figure it out by themselves... There's at least a significant teacher-student aspect between the two delta clubs.

    On the other hand, there are people who I have an easier time getting along with, particularly NFs, followed by SFs. I feel like I'm in the same world as other NFs, we tend to understand each others issues quite easily, and it's kind of impressive at times. I do have the motivation to bond with these people, especially for validation purposes, which I've discovered makes getting out of ruts a lot easier... It's a shame that in this forum more emphasis seems to be placed on quadra values rather than clubs, when the people that will more naturally understand you will undoubtedly be people from your own club, more so that your other non-club quadra members. Well, all the power to them.

    No idea if all this addresses your question, and to what extent it does, but I just got inspired .

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    Ni establishes that killing is wrong because negative emotions are associated with it. Ni is like to argue that capital punishment is right because it is typically accompanied by positive emotions.



    This is interesting. What you are arguing here is that Fi rationalizes Ni's judgments until they are stripped of all meaning.

    I suppose that the most change-oriented concept of Fi is "focus".

    • Desire is the motivation to acquire (Te in the context of Fi): "Why did I take it? Because I wanted it."


    This is really tough.

    You can have desire for any element, really. Desire for peace; desire for war; desire for gratification; desire for pleasure; desire for comfort; desire for acceptance and to belong; for knowledge; for status; even for ability. Desire cannot be easily changed: the internal motion which drives it must ebb and be replaced by a new pattern thereof. Desire is the need to control one's own inner dynamics by observing something outside oneself.
    Yes, that is very much the case. It's a pleasure to meet you.

    "This is interesting. What you are arguing here is that Fi rationalizes Ni's judgments until they are stripped of all meaning."

    By way of Ne (possibilities/probabilities/new/novel connections/ideas/concepts.)
    Can you imagine what happends with Se?

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