Beta NF and External/Objective Validation

[silverchris9]

I think Beta NFs (and maybe all NFs) really seek external validation. For IEIs, I think it's because we know that we live in our own worlds sort of, and so while we may be perfectly confident that we're right within our own worlds (and many confident IEIs will bluff and act as though we're certain that we're right), we always have a nagging doubt that we're really wrong relative to the real, external, outside world. But when someone else tells us we're right, or better yet, demonstrates why we're obviously right, then it our confidence improves a hundredfold, and we feel more comfortable being even more honest with our perceptions, not because we really thought we were wrong before, but because we were somehow afraid that it wouldn't fit...

Also, another way (SeTi) authority helps Ni is that sometimes with Ni, due to the abstractness of the function, you can't really demonstrate it or prove it, you sort of have to live it. That doesn't (necessarily) mean you believe it if it doesn't make sense. But that's how poetry works, in my opinion: you read the poem, but it doesn't make sense until you experience what the words are talking about in real life. The poem didn't prove that it was right (although the poem is that which is the proof of itself, from a formal perspective), it just was right, and then you discovered it by experiencing and then noticing that its fit with experience. So SeTi may sort of "take it on faith" that Ni is correct (or more accurately, see what the Ni-person is talking about), and then say, "just try it" or "just do it" to others, who will then discover that it's right. I don't know if that really makes sense, but maybe it's one way in which Se works better than Ne for betas as a mode of extroverted perception?

Also, I constantly find socionics showing up in my poetry. One of the concepts I like the most that I've been sort of developing is the idea of the poem as external validation of the soul/self. It's an image of the soul in the world, and if the image of the soul survives in the world, it's validation for the soul. That's one of the main reasons I write poetry. External validation, freedom from uncertainty as to the value of my existence. Sound E4ish enough for you?

[Linas]

I believe that I agree.


It's reflections, it's a true feeling, and believing. It's a form of living a life, it's poetry.


art is hard, don't lose it.

[olduser]

haha, i've been around Betas and it is more like the Ni type has a philosophy of the world and the Se type believes it and shouts everyone down about it. I think that is a simple way of describing your paragraphs. I guess this is external validation? hahahaha

[silverchris9]

haha, i've been around Betas and it is more like the Ni type has a philosophy of the world and the Se type believes it and shouts everyone down about it. I think that is a simple way of describing your paragraphs. I guess this is external validation? hahahaha

Yeah, that is the condensed version. I always write so much. I need to learn to simplify. Sigh.

[olduser]

Yeah, that is the condensed version. I always write so much. I need to learn to simplify. Sigh.

haha. my version lacks nuances and relies more on stereotypes-- don't beat yourself up.

[silverchris9]

haha. my version lacks nuances and relies more on stereotypes-- don't beat yourself up.

lol. I'm not. thanks, though.

[olduser]

lol. I'm not. thanks, though.

well maybe you should, just a little, we're all a little bored here.

[silverchris9]

well maybe you should, just a little, we're all a little bored here.

Not as fun if it's not irl. What good is self-flagellation if no one's watching? And doing it verbally isn't half as good.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Hmmm. I pretty much know where I stand in relation to other people. That's not the issue. the issue is I don't understand the right sort of force or finesse to use in the 'external/objective world' applications. (Or as I like to call it external straight man world =p)

It's a sort of technical process. And other people can sense this indifference I have with this, but I mean they don't really care enough to reach out, because they're busy dealing with their own shit, understandably.

I'm either too blunt or I ignore it, I view it like a frustrated mother does to the step child she never really liked, I think that's what annoys other people, about me- I just sort of push it aside. I always act like I'm in a rush to get it over with, that I'd rather be doing something else then paying attention to the immediate straight moment. Because it doesn't really offer me spiritual satisfaction, it makes me sort of uneasy and nervous because of how aware of my physical environment I have to be.

I'm not unconfident that I may be wrong. I know I'm right, but it's just like the reality of it all still bugs me, and something I feel like I'm a victim to.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

It's like Ni is so over-arching, a sort of invisible spark that circles the whole globe. Like in another land and in another perspective, this reality right here won't always be like this and it understands this so well, it's like our brains are either here nor there. They are just in ideal magical writersville.

In other words, the manly confident straight jock will also be emo and insecure and the faggy wispy little bard will also feel strong, it's just not IN this moment that can be observed, you have to show that through writing or art, to make people understand of other worlds that aren't just in the truth of the NOW. The key difference is when a tough confident jock gets emo he doesn't really think about it so much he was just emo....and now he's not. There's little self-reflection. He's back to throat fucking bitches. And the INFp/4 is all 'Oh my god I'm actually self-confident? This feeling is soooo surprising! I have to dwell on all the beautiful intricate forever and ever' And when he's sad again he doesn't know how to handle it because he held on to that great moment for way too long.

So in order for the INFp to not feel inferior to others, which are more comfortable in their own physical skin, usually and defaulty, they have to have empathy and understand that from another perspective and time/place, they've felt the way that the INFp did. That's why, INFp emo-ness (and all emo-ness) is so offensive to people. It just seems so selfish and vulgar, because the way e4s and INFps wear them as martyr badges, it's like they have a tendency to act like they're the only person that has ever happened to, or something. You know what I mean?

So it's just like what the ennagram tells you. You get over this, by realizing that you're not the only one that feels weak and faggy and artistic and 'poetry-ish' and such. I know you know that, intellectually, but it's like, you probably begin to feel it. And then you can sort of I guess, become more solid, and report things accurately as a writer, because I think, the natural moral thing to do in a situation, is always so organic, you just have to sort of tell people what is going on, in your own way.

As an INFp you probably won't ever embrace the world the way any other type would, and well that's great. You just have to sort of, I mean I think all INFps have to train ourselves to pay attention to reality so we can survive and make the art that people like.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

It's like the INFp takes things too personally naturally. Sooo let's say they accomplish a task they get probably maybe too emotionally charged up too quickly , and they feel 'done' because from their perspective, they are- but in all reality, to other people, it wasn't really shit. And they're just like they get angry at you because you seem to be making excuses to avoid 'normal shit that everybody does' You know?

GOOOOD I get this all the time as a magical gay writer! it's sooo annoying that they just don't understand!! (I sort of made fun of myself by saying that, but it's true)

I just think there comes a point where you have these weaknesses and you can do your best, and other people have to understand that. They just have to make some effort to understand you, and that's all there is to it. They don't have to get you entirely, they just have to try. Otherwise they shouldn't be mad when we go all poetry emo fag on their asses. Really if you don't meet me halfway I have every right to complain.

And hopefully you can be around others that complement your weaknesses without jeopardizing your strengths.