Fe = Blue

[ArchonAlarion]

I want you to tell me what the color blue is.

Note: You cannot refer to the idea of colors nor any scientific mumbo jumbo.


I just want you to tell me what blue is like.

Because maybe if you can conjure up that, you'll be able to tell me what the functions "are like".


Here's my try: Blue is like cold air. Blue is the sky. Blue is pacifistic. Blue is an ocean. Blue is sad. Blue is serene. Blue is calm.


So, from my descriptions could you imagine what blue really is? If you were blind, would this really do blue justice?



(Hint at what my point is: Fe is emotions. Fe is expressions. Fe is social gestures. Fe is talking. Fe is being nice. Fe is banter. Fe is a birthday party...)


Blue is blue is blue is blue is blue...

[Rubicon]

Why are you assuming people are blind? Yeah, it's easy to define what blue is - point to all the things that are blue.

[ArchonAlarion]

Lol right, so point to all the products of Fe.

The issue now is understanding that Blue is a specific thing. It's not a box that you throw related words and concepts into.

You may use analogies like "calm, placid, misty, cool, etc", but those things don't belong to Blue. If you are calm, you aren't necessarily blue.

Fe is not a box either. It is actually an aspect of human psychology. This box idea comes from the erroneous belief that elements are categories of info. They aren't. Things don't have elements, people use elements to process whatever information they gather.

[Rubicon]

Lol right, so point to all the products of Fe.

The issue now is understanding that Blue is a specific thing. It's not a box that you throw related words and concepts into.

You may use analogies like "calm, placid, misty, cool, etc", but those things don't belong to Blue. If you are calm, you aren't necessarily blue.

Fe is not a box either. It is actually an aspect of human psychology. This box idea comes from the erroneous belief that elements are categories of info. They aren't. Things don't have elements, people use elements to process whatever information they gather.

So you're saying that an Fe person essentially sees everything through blue-coloured glasses?

[ArchonAlarion]

Sorta. Maybe only ESE =p

[Mediator Kam]

bro, i am not seeing the correlation between Fe and blue.

[Brilliand]

I usually think of as green.

But I do get your point, Archon. Oddly, I feel like this was directed at looktothesky, with her "describe the information elements without technical jargon" threads.

[Trevor]

Fe is red, you idiots.

[Brilliand]

Fe is red, you idiots.

I generally associate that with .

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Yellow is Fe, maybe some Fe ego types have different shades. Some sort of bright yellow is pretty ESE, so bright it's almost white is EIE, a warm homely sort of yellow is SEI when they are in good company, IEI Fe is... like the yellow on the emoticons here? (thinks of redbaron as she often uses them).

[thePirate]

I get what your saying but like I told you in the other thread, people need to start somewhere.

I think if you start with definitions like Fe = emotional expression as a foundation, you can use it to move up to deeper understanding. I dont think thats very way off either as far as descriptions go, its decent enough to base some understanding on and work from there

[Rubicon]

Si - green
Ne - purple
Se - red
Ni - pale green
Ti - black
Te - grey
Fe - multi-coloured!
Fi - burgundy

[Brilliand]

Si - green
Ne - purple
Se - red
Ni - pale green
Ti - black
Te - grey
Fe - multi-coloured!
Fi - burgundy

Si - cyan
Ne - red
Se - black
Ni - yellow
Ti - white
Te - maroon
Fe - green
Fi -

[Trevor]

I generally associate that with .

You're speaking from a subjective standpoint. I'm being objective. F = red, T = blue, N = yellow, golden, S = green, brown. There you go.

[Rubicon]

Si - cyan
Ne - red
Se - black
Ni - yellow
Ti - white
Te - maroon
Fe - green
Fi -

Fi?

[Trevor]

Fi?

Crimson if I ever saw one. Crimson heading towards violet.

[Absurd]

Show them what objectivity is all about, tut.

[Aiss]

That explains why blue is one of my least favorite colours. I never thought of as blue though. On second thought, maybe it doesn't.

ain't bright, even if it's white.

[Trevor]

Show them what objectivity is all about, tut.

Oh, just you wait. Just you wait. I'm gonna show them. I'm gonna show them all.

[Rubicon]

Crimson if I ever saw one.

Here’s the smell of the blood still; all the perfumes of Arabia will not sweeten this little hand. Oh, oh, oh!

[Nowisthetime]

I bought a green Fe today, so I can confirm that Fe can be green, but I left it in the kitchen for some hours, and now it has turned blue. So I guess the ripe ones are blue.

[krieger]

Blue is a cold, distant color. Nothing like Fe. Ti could well be blue.

[Wynch]

I thought of Gamma Fi as Blue: Conservative, Loyal, Dependable

(As a funny side note, the colour blue stresses me out. It's too steadying and surrounding. Makes me feel claustrophobic)

EDIT: Also funny considering how much time I spend on this forum.

[jughead]

Was I the only one who used FE and got that you can't describe Fe to others anymore than you can describe the color blue? You just have to experience it yourself.
If not this humour=not funny but sad.

[Aiss]

Was I the only one who used FE and got that you can't describe Fe to others anymore than you can describe the color blue? You just have to experience it yourself.
If not this humour=not funny but sad.

No, but the fact you felt the need to post it speaks volumes.

[Suz]

I like this thread!! and can we get some answers?? I too need this sort of metaphoric association to understand the entire scope of Fe better. Of all the functions for that matter.

Funny responses though, despite the lack of real answers!

[MatthewZ]

Note: You cannot refer to the idea of colors nor any scientific mumbo jumbo."

This invalidates the analogy. Why not define an hour without referring to the idea of time?

[Mediator Kam]

Fe is just wanting everyone to feel the same way you feel, or at least look like you are. This can be with positive or negative emotions. When I am feeling bad or sad and someone asks me if something is wrong, I am not physically able to lie about how I feel. I can say whatever I want, but my face and eyes betray me. Can't hide much, just who I am. That makes me a deep blue color.

[ArchonAlarion]

This is why I'm sure you're Ne ego.

Lol I just read through that awful thread on .ws. Thanks for the input, not that it will help there.

...

well said

This invalidates the analogy. Why not define an hour without referring to the idea of time?

Actually I intended that and I figured an LII would ask this.

I can define Fe as a cognitive function, as part of a typology, as referencing internal object dynamics, as opposed to Te, etc.

Unfortunately that is all self-referential to the theory. Describing the way light produces waves that are interpreted as colors (w/e) will not make you see blue.

Fe is just wanting everyone to feel the same way you feel, or at least look like you are. This can be with positive or negative emotions. When I am feeling bad or sad and someone asks me if something is wrong, I am not physically able to lie about how I feel. I can say whatever I want, but my face and eyes betray me. Can't hide much, just who I am. That makes me a deep blue color.

Abba dee abba dah

[The Exception]

Blue is a colour, the perception of which is evoked by light having a spectrum dominated by energy with a wavelength of roughly 440–490 nm.

[MatthewZ]

Blue is a colour, the perception of which is evoked by light having a spectrum dominated by energy with a wavelength of roughly 440–490 nm.

I prefer the range limited to 480nm to leave some room for Cyan as a legitimate color.

[jughead]

Wow an ILI insuts me on a thread about Fe.
Your a dumbass.
The volume it speaks is basically my type turd whop.

A struggler for the emotional naturalness of people.

[ArchonAlarion]

Wow an ILI insuts me on a thread about Fe.
Your a dumbass.
The volume it speaks is basically my type turd whop.

A struggler for the emotional naturalness of people.

Translation:

Wow, an ILI insults me in a thread about Fe.

You're a dumbass

This speaks volumes about my type, you turd whop.

Someone who cares far, far too much.

[Brilliand]

Fi?

I think of , and exactly the same as the symbol we use, but I didn't want to type the exact same thing for and . I didn't consider though that white would actually be visible against this background.

I suppose I could give blue and white.

[glam]

Fe is not a box either. It is actually an aspect of human psychology. This box idea comes from the erroneous belief that elements are categories of info. They aren't. Things don't have elements, people use elements to process whatever information they gather.

Wikisocion on as an information aspect: Information about states of excitation and how they are communicated

From Aushra on the eight facets of reality: = Perception of the internal dynamics of an object — the changes taking place within it

now these descriptions are not (except perhaps the "internal dynamics of an object" bit) is as you put it, self-referential to the theory. also they are not necessarily referring to emotions or anything necessarily related to humans or whatever information they are producing... i think they are pretty simple and easy to understand.

can you explain why you reject the idea of information aspects? (and no i'm not trying to harp on you for deviating from "normal" socionics or anything like that)

[Krig the Viking]

Lol right, so point to all the products of Fe.

The issue now is understanding that Blue is a specific thing. It's not a box that you throw related words and concepts into.

You may use analogies like "calm, placid, misty, cool, etc", but those things don't belong to Blue. If you are calm, you aren't necessarily blue.

Fe is not a box either. It is actually an aspect of human psychology. This box idea comes from the erroneous belief that elements are categories of info. They aren't. Things don't have elements, people use elements to process whatever information they gather.

Blue is in fact a category. It's an arbitrary division of the spectrum of visible light which we label in English "blue". The fact that this category, strictly defined, excludes things like "calm, placid, misty, cool, etc." does not invalidate the fact that it is a category. In fact, blue as a category is much more arbitrary than Fe as a category -- where does the line between blue and green fall? How do we know what is blue and what is green? It's a mutually agreed upon arbitrary category that facilitates communication about colour. Fe, on the other hand, has a set of distinct features that separate it from other information elements in a less arbitrary way. In the end, however, all categories are arbitrary in some way, as categories are simply Ti's way of breaking down and trying to understand the world in discrete chunks.

However, I think your larger point, that the category and the thing that is being categorized are not the same, is a valid one. I think what you're getting at is the difference between haecceity and quiddity (thanks, Pinocchio, for finding those useful words! ).

[ArchonAlarion]

Wikisocion on as an information aspect: Information about states of excitation and how they are communicated

From Aushra on the eight facets of reality: = Perception of the internal dynamics of an object — the changes taking place within it

I reject the bolded.

I do not believe reality can be meaningfully divided into 8 boxes that vaguely associated bits of information are thrown in.

This is the difference between your socionics and mine.

I believe that Fe is not "out there" in the world embedded in information. It isn't a what, but a how.

The elements/functions are how info is interpreted not what info is interpreted.

Call me a heretic.


Here is my helpful diagram:





I guess I could say that the functions organize information. They would serve the vital purpose of making the world seem orderly, so really Fe creates internal object dynamics, because no such thing exists outside the human psyche.

[Krig the Viking]

Categorization works by looking at certain distinct attributes of things, and mentally grouping those things together with other things that have similar attributes. An apple can be classified as a "sphere-like object" by looking at its attribute of shape, or as a "red object" by looking at its attribute of colour.

Both models in your diagram are correct. The attributes by which information elements are categorized do exist "out there" in the world, as depicted in the left figure. The categories themselves exist within the mind, as in the figure on the right. Of course, one "bit" of information may have several different attributes, allowing it to be placed in multiple categories, which, if I understand you correctly, may be the source of your objection. The mental function responsible for processing Fe sorts information according to attributes relevant to Fe, while the Ti function sorts information according to attributes relevant to Ti, etc.

[Trevor]

Actually, it's berry-colored. Not red red.

Now I see.

[Trevor]

Colors don't exist until the perception systems produce the illusion of "color": light hits the retina and is processed into a perception of color in our heads.

Thank you all for illustrating the illusionary nature of Socionics.

You mean as in: colors do not exist, so whoever is associating a nonexistant thing with socionics is also implying the nonexistance of socionics?