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Thread: explanation of my SLE typing

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    Default explanation of my SLE typing

    Some people's types are obvious. You meet them and you're instantly like, "That's a slam dunk SEI" (or whatever the case might be). Some people's types aren't immediately obvious, but after observing them and considering various options, their type becomes reasonably clear. Some people, however, seem to have contradictory traits that obscure their type. You might be able to determine that they value this or that or that they're sensory or ethical (or whatever the case might be), but it's still extremely difficult to narrow their type down to one thing.

    I believe that with these difficult-to-impossible-to-type-with-confidence people, the issue is generally that they're not acting primarily out of their ego block. For anyone who hasn't read Rick's article about awakening the ego, I strongly encourage you to do so. The basic idea is that different people/types expect different things out of you, and you're likely to alter your behavior in order to get along with or interact with them. The only type who needs you to be EXACTLY who you are is your dual. If you don't spent time around your dual, then chances are good that you'll develop behavior patterns that are atypical of "dualized" people of your type.

    The reason I'm saying all of this is because I believe I'm one of those people. I had a large degree of confidence in my LIE typing for years, but at the same time I was mildly depressed and identified more with the negative aspects of my understanding of the typing than the positive aspects. I also attributed things to an understanding of temperaments that was most likely inaccurate. (There are other explanations for my proactive nature.) I knew I was a logical type (because I'm very comfortable with Te/Ti and totally miss or mess up Fi/Fe) and that I value Se, but the other aspects of my typing were based largely on the assumption that symptoms of depression were weak Se and Si.

    Back in August I met a "slam dunk" IEI. We gradually became friends and are now pretty close. I questioned my type at the time because it didn't feel like we had an asymmetrical intertype relation. I valued his input as much as he valued mine. I was also finding that when my Se was needed and encouraged, it seemed a hell of a lot stronger than I had previously considered it. I decided at the time that it was probably just that hanging out with your supervisee makes you feel like your 6th function is stronger than it actually is, and that areas of compatibility not related to Socionics were most likely responsible for how well this IEI were getting along.

    The more I interacted with him, however (which wasn't really all that much until January or so), the more clear it became that being around him was bringing out sides of me that had been subdued for a very long time. Or perhaps always. (See these two posts for brief descriptions of some of what I was experiencing: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/612354-post10.html and http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/612358-post12.html) I found that my IEI friend was very in need of (and very appreciative of) my input on practical matters, scientific topics, and "Se things". (I'll describe what I mean by "Se things" later.) It was great to have someone need and appreciate that kind of input from me. And the more I offered it, the happier and healthier I felt. At the same time, however, I was finding that when I tried to act the same way at home, my input was criticized. I was also being criticized more at home for being impulsive, insensitive, rude, and immoral (because I gave more consideration to the practical aspects of various situations, such as dealing with problems with my son, than the subjective ethical/moral perspective).

    I also found that I needed and appreciated his input as much as he needed and appreciated mine. He always seemed to say exactly the right thing, and he often offered a perspective on something that I would have never come up with on my own, a perspective that really helped clarify things or made me realize important aspects of a situation that I had entirely overlooked. It was always very refreshing being around him. While I was used to spending most of my time around people who were very stern, academic, and critical, being around him was very enjoyable and freeing. I had been having a lot of trouble managing stress, but being around him seemed to diffuse the stress and allowed me to be more productive.

    Basically, when I'm at my best, I'm SeTi. The things that I love it when other people appreciate in me are Se and Ti. The things I need are Ni (though I'm still working out exactly what Ni is and how it manifests, tbh) and Fe (this one is MUCH more clear). I realize that all of this is subjective, but this whole "awakening the ego" thing makes perfect sense. I have no reasonable doubt that I might be any other type.

    Of course, it all makes perfect sense when I break it down in Model A, too... (additional posts to follow)
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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    Se: Much of what I want to say about Se correlates to the wikisocion description of Se in SLE's, so I'll quote that and provide explanations.

    SLEs are strong-willed, independently-minded individuals who are able to recognize levels of willpower and motivation in others.
    Yes. When someone is saying that they want to do something, I can easily perceive their level of readiness to act and whether they actually have the resolve necessary to complete their objective. When they have a problem, I can tell whether they're currently willing to put forth the necessary action in order to resolve it. When people are stalling on remedying a situation or completing a goal, I automatically attribute it to their lack of will. One of the most common things I say to people is, "So fix it."

    They are almost always collected and ready for action.
    If it needs to be done, just fucking do it. Obstacles are not weighed too heavily in my mind. Where there's a will, there's a way. So fix it. Yeah, you may encounter problems, but so what. That's just part of the process.

    They are adept at organizing others effectively towards any given objective
    If something needs to be done (or if people want to do it), then I determine the most expedient course of action and try to get things going. Telling people (even my bosses) at work what needs to get done is natural to me. I'm also the one who organizes people in social situations when we want or need to do something. Everyone else is too slow, lol.

    and have no problem "getting the job done," even if it requires stepping on a few toes.
    I'm not sure what "stepping on a few toes" means. I'm direct and professional, but I haven't had anyone complain that I'm crossing boundaries or being too bossy or whatever. I recognize that in order to get people to do stuff when I ask, I need to be respective and appreciative towards them. Having disgruntled teammates leads to difficulty organizing activities that need to get done. My managers know they can count on my to handle many of the organizational aspects of the shift and are happy that I do because it makes their jobs a lot easier. Just today my shift manager commented that she loves working with me because she doesn't have to worry about stuff getting done properly when I'm there.

    This makes me a valuable employee, and as such I'm given the best shifts, get off any time I ask off, and pretty much just do whatever I want to do without anyone being bothered by it. I know which rules I can break and which ones are important, so I never get in trouble for anything. I ignore tasks that I'm supposed to do when it makes sense for me to do something else instead. And when a manager is simply wrong about something, I explain why and they generally go along with what I'm saying. There have also been numerous times when I've brought problems with the way things are being run or ideas to solve problems to the attention of the management, and they've taken my suggestions. (This might also be related to strong Te though.)

    They will take the initiative and act at the opportune moment. SLEs will often act without complete information, improvising as they go, but are successful nonetheless.
    You don't need complete information in order to act. Getting started is the important thing. If problems arise, they can be dealt with. Just have a general idea of the rules, policies, and procedures involved so you know how to move with relative safety within the system.

    Instability energizes them, as they are active people who think clearly on the move and tend to be unsatisfied with a stationary, peaceful lifestyle.
    I've always said that I'm someone who needs a little adventure in my day. Instability is energizing because it calls for action. It's also a challenge, and I love challenges.

    SLEs easily spot power dynamics within any given structure, hierarchy or relationship
    Always.

    and strive for a secure position where they are less subordinate to others.
    This part I'm not as concerned about. For instance, there's a woman I work with who has been with the company for 40 years, and she's what you'd call a sour apple. Not happy unless she's not happy. Highly critical. Has to have things done a certain way. Needs to have her seniority recognized. I have learned that when I'm dealing with her, I should treat her as though she's in a superior position. I don't have a problem doing this because it's how someone like her needs to be managed. Let her feel like she's in charge (even though she's not... I clearly have more power/influence than she does). That's fine.

    She can be pretty confrontational, and I'm not afraid of confrontation by any means... I just know that in order to get what I need from her, I have to show her a certain type of respect that's important to her. If we ever truly disagreed on something and I found it important enough to make a stand, I would certainly feel comfortable doing so. However, this has not yet happened.

    I will say though that in the past I was very easily drawn into (and probably even created) power struggles quite frequently.

    At the same time, SLEs are comfortable with hierarchies, and recognize that they are a necessary part of everyday life. SLEs may sometimes seem dismissive of those of a lower social status, as if they were weak or inferior in some way. Likewise, they see dependence as weakness, and so strive to minimize their dependence on others, especially in their personal relationships.
    Yep.

    I will admit that I like people who listen to what I tell them to do though. Friends/coworkers/significant others... whatever. If I say that they should or shouldn't do something and give them my reasons for doing so and they generally appreciate my input and do what I've suggested, it feels good.

    SLEs' energetic and direct nature tends to make them natural leaders. They are quick to assume this role, even in alien or unfamiliar environments. They usually adopt a direct administrative style and build a bureaucratic structure beneath them over time.
    Yep.

    They will take full responsibility for their actions, and understand these terms when they take a leadership-based role within a group, company or organization as being part of what leadership is about.
    Absolutely. I would even go a step beyond that and say that I'm not just responsible for my actions, but also for the success or failure of my team. If my team is not performing properly, it is because I have not led them properly.

    SLEs are highly observant and take note of all the objects present in their surroundings.
    Yes. I'm always taking notice of things around me. That car is parked right on that other cars bumper, that tree has a downed limb, the cracks in the sidewalk, that person's socks don't match, that car has a low tire, that building is an unusual color, there's a water stain on the ceiling (this may be from being a home inspector though), that guy is riding an expensive bike, that girl's eyebrows are over-plucked, etc. These observations aren't usually something I generally think much about, but I see them nonetheless. I also notice the location of items that I may have wandered past earlier without paying any specific attention to and when an object is out of place, etc.

    They are well aware of which objects they have, and which they want, and tend to be possessive of their property. At the same time, they also have a generous streak and can easily bestow gifts and share their property with others to demonstrate acceptance of the other person or people.
    Very true.




    Other things I've attributed to Se are my "life is what you make it" attitude, my "so fix it" approach to problems and desires, my direct approach in dealing with people and situations, and my "fortune favors the bold" mentality. "Make it happen." If there's something I want, I head straight for it. When people are having problems, I often recognize that the underlying issue is lack of will. I encourage them to take full ownership of their problems and responsibility for their life and resolve to do what needs to be done in order to accomplish their objective. Man up and deal with it. Be decisive and confident. If you have that mentality, you'll be able to overcome obstacles as they come along.
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

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    Ti: Everything written here describes me except the part about refusing to take other people's advice. I like to consider the advice of others and try to determine why they're saying what they are. I don't have a problem admitting I'm wrong if I indeed am wrong, but there's generally a system of reasons behind why I think what I do, so in order to show me that I'm wrong, the person will either need to show me that one of my premises is flawed, that my information is incorrect, or introduce important information that I hadn't considered/been aware of. I've been told that I "have to be right" before, but it's not a matter of having to be right at all. It's a matter of having to get to the bottom of it. It's about what's right, not who's right. I also know that I can come across as rather... intense (some might say forceful)... when I'm presenting the case for something. It's not because I'm trying to force anyone into anything or prove that I'm right. It's their life and their mind and they can do and think what they want. It's just that I want to be sure that I'm communicating clearly if I feel I have good reasons for saying what I'm saying. I've found that sometimes with the aforementioned IEI, all I have to do is present my perspective on it (relating it to my experiences) and give my reasoning for it without directly relating it to his situation or behavior, and he'll accept it and sometimes even adopt it as his own to the extent that he'll later tell me that he's come to the same conclusion and give me the exact same reasons I gave him in our previous conversation, seeming to have completely forgotten that we'd ever had a conversation about it. (An SEI I work with does this sometimes too. I find it endearing, and I never say "yeah I know, I'm the one who told you that, remember?". lol) Sometimes I just flat out tell him what he should do though, and if I do that it's because I am very certain of the best course of action in the situation (and I do briefly explain the reason I am saying to do it). When I do this, he just does what I've told him he should do. I think I might be getting off of discussions about Ti now though and into how Se + Ti covers for weak Te in IEI's. So anyways...

    Another thing that I relate to Ti is the way my thought processes work. I understand material in classes best when I create an outline (that is, a is under 1 which is under A which is under I), and when I'm given new information, I attach it to a related point of reference already existing in my brain. This way of mentally cataloging information makes it easier to understand and recall it. I think everyone does this though? I mean, isn't that just how memory and information processing in humans works? That said, I've found that others aren't always "naturals" at forming these connections. I'm good at teaching people things because I can get a feel for their frame of reference, what they do and don't already understand, and then show them how new information relates to their existing frame of reference. (Isn't this what all teachers are supposed to be doing though? Just throwing information at a student is useless if they have no way to integrate it. I guess some teachers just leave integrating the information up to the students though. Teachers who do this AND also frequently go off on unrelated tangents and then jump back to the material or to the next topic while they're presenting the information annoy me.) I also give people little tricks to remember things, such as another word that it sounds like or acronyms.

    I am always very aware of the rules, policies, and procedures of any organization I am dealing with, whether it's the law or work or a class. It's important to me to understand both the reasons those rules/procedures exist and the likely consequences of breaking them. The ones I agree with I adopt, and I remind others of them when they're breaking them (generally explaining why that rule exists or what might happen if they break it). Sometimes I do it in a "technically it's supposed to be done this way" or "you're not technically supposed to do that" kind of way followed up by my own thoughts on the matter, including how important the rule is. When someone breaks a rule/law, my thoughts generally turn to how the rule is enforced or what recourse is available within that and related systems (whether it's the recourse for those enforcing the rules, those somehow hurt because the rule has been broken, or the one breaking the rule who must now find a way to respond to the rule's enforcement). If I do not have this information, I quickly obtain it. I either look it up myself or ask someone. The person I ask is selected based on their understanding of the rules AND their position in regards to either helping or hindering me (or the person involved) towards their objective based on their level of power and interests in the situation.

    When I think that the reasoning behind rules/policies/procedures doesn't make sense, I either ignore them, obey them simply because I'm aware of the consequences of not obeying them, revise them for my own personal use, or appeal to those with the power to change them (making sure that I'm not missing information related to the reasoning behind the rule/policy/procedure and explaining my own reasoning related to it).

    An example of my focus on Ti that many of you may be familiar with is my approach to Socionics. I've posted many topics over the years on Model A, breaking it down this way and that way with various information elements plugged into it, for example looking at the relationships between the 3rd and 5th functions in an individual or the interaction between 3rd and 7th functions in a dual pair. I've posted a lot of topics comparing similar information elements as well, such as Te and Fe, finding it more useful to examine the contrasts between two similar information elements than to simply discuss one of them in and of itself. I've posted many topics on that whole external vs. internal, static vs. dynamic, and objects vs. fields subject. When I was learning about the second, third, and fourth tier dichotomies, I posted topics about each of them to try to explain/learn about and discuss each dichotomy set. I've also posted topics focusing on the four temperaments and how they're different from and relate to each other. I don't know if anyone's noticed this, but I've also always created lists of types in the same order: ILE, SEI, ESE, LII, SLE, IEI, EIE, LSI, LIE, ESI, SEE, ILI, LSE, EII, IEE, SLI... see the pattern? Yes, Socionics itself is a very Ti subject in general, but I think I've focused more on the Ti aspects of it than many if not most of the other posters over the years have. I may not get as in depth with it as some of the Alpha NT's, especially the LII's, have (and I may have largely drowned out my "Ti focused topics" with a multitude of asinine topics and posts), but all of the stuff I said above remains.



    I've always known that this stuff is related to strong Ti, but because I'm so comfortable in dismissing rules/policies/procedures that I don't agree with and altering my own Ti "mental structures", I figured that this was Ti ignoring. I also related Ti to too large an extent to the Ti + Ne I observed on the forum and irl, which is something I don't entirely identify with (obviously). I do feel that Ti is a primary area of focus and confidence in me though.
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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    Ne: To be perfectly honest, I don't identify with much of the wikisocion description of Ne in SLE's.

    SLEs are largely unaware of others' hidden potential and abilities, since they size up people based on visible qualities and behavior. As a result, their judgments of people may appear simplistic or one-dimensional, and they may seriously misjudge or underestimate the capabilities of others, leading to surprises and sometimes rude awakenings.
    I think I'm actually pretty good at being aware of what others could be good at. Yes, I'm basing this on behavior and qualities I'm seeing, but I can recognize leadership qualities in others (maybe that's just Se though) and can see when all it would take for someone to make use of their abilities is their resolve to do so and confidence that they can (that's just Se too, I suppose). I can also tell when someone has the potential to be a threat. I might not know why, but I often get a sense that someone is dangerous or shady. And I think I'm usually right when I perceive these potential threats (and unfortunately am often proven right). Is that just Se and Ti though? Am I building a Ti concept of a person's character based on little things and considering that if they're willing to be shady or disrespectful or greedy in one way that they're likely going to have it within them to be shady/disrespectful/greedy in larger ways, given the right opportunity/circumstances?

    I will add though that my IEI friend often thinks I am too suspicious of people. I answer by telling him that if the person was going to cause a problem (whether because they're shady or because they might have certain interests in the situation that could be problematic), they might be in a position to do so because of this or that. He often responds that I worry too much, though after I've explained what I'm seeing he sometimes takes heed. I see this as Ne ignoring/Ni dominance balancing out my Ne role. More on this later.

    I guess I'm saying that if I'm missing some aspect of this as described on wikisocion, I'm not aware of it.

    Likewise, SLEs may fail to recognize long-term opportunities in the world around them as they pursue the more readily visible and immediately available routes to success.
    Again, if I'm missing some aspect of this, I'm not aware of it. I do like to know that my plans are practical and do research to determine if they are.

    My previous plans to build a real estate empire (and make a good income doing home inspections), for example, would have worked exactly as planned if the lending and housing market had stayed as it was when I developed those plans. Unfortunately, I didn't understand economics very well at the time and thought that those who warned of a coming crash in the real estate market were just being paranoid or pessimistic. I will not make the same mistake again. I'm planning on going to dental school and becoming a dentist, but I'm going to be paying close attention to the health care industry and will read about predicted economic changes related to it before I actually enroll in dental school. I have to get my BS first anyways, so I have some time to see how things are playing out and decide if it's still a wise course of action. If I decide at that point that going to dental school is no longer as much a "sure fire success" as I am comfortable with, I will at least have a BS that I can do something else with. Part of me fears that as a biology major most of my opportunities will be in lab work, which I don't think I would enjoy, but I figure there are a lot of managerial positions out there that require a four year degree and aren't fussy about what your major was.

    To make up for their weakness in assessment of possibilities, SLEs may hesitate to act, believing that they are increasing the amount of opportunities they will have. Instead, they end up using none, thus failing to attain the results they were aiming for. In this sense, the SLE would have been much better off following his instincts in the first place. Many SLEs are aware of this, and simply prefer not to search for hidden opportunities and avoid this weakness altogether.
    This I don't identify with at all, and I think this is generally much more accurate of Ne PoLR types than of Ne Role types. EP's are impulsive in general, and if anything I'd say that Se dominants are too quick to act. (However, I could see "undualized" Se dominants, especially those with primarily Ne/Si ego types around them, acting as described.)

    I believe that decisive action is important, even if I don't see or have any way of knowing all of the possible outcomes. Fortune favors the bold. I'd rather make mistakes than do nothing at all. Inaction is far too costly. I tend to pick a course of action and then head straight for it, not weighing obstacles (such as unforeseen possibilities) too heavily. Obstacles are a certainty in life, after all, and I take the attitude of simply bulldozing straight through them. I may not know how I'll do it, but I am confident that I will. I attribute this to Se, and I can see how Ni balances it out. Ni is strongly aware of obstacles and often sees them as impenetrable or immovable, opting instead to avoid them or wait until they go away. While I am comfortable dealing with obstacles head on, there are times when I may be too quick to do so and could benefit from someone telling me that it makes more sense to steer around the obstacle or just have patience. I don't have to do anything or decide anything right now.

    When it comes to future planning, SLEs speak with confidence and apparent optimism, although in actuality, they rarely feel confident in positive outcomes and further possibilities.
    I do speak with confidence and optimism, but I feel they are genuine. I do have doubts as to whether my objective will no longer be lucrative or otherwise desirable once I have obtained it though.

    They may also consider advanced planning unnecessary for trivial circumstances, as they prefer to act impulsively.
    I'm pretty bad about this, lol. I don't consider it a flaw though. I tend to feel I have a grasp on which things require planning and which things you can deal with as they come up. "We'll cross that bridge when we get there." I think this confidence that I'll be able to deal with whatever comes up is also a Se thing, though I use Ti to determine which things require how much immediate attention.

    I will add that this tendency did drive an Ne PoLR/Ni hidden agenda ex of mine crazy. When my IEI friend has doubts or worries, the way I trivialize them gives him courage to act. When my xSI ex had doubts or worries, my "we'll cross that bridge when we get there" or "whatever, if that happens we'll just find a way to deal with it then" approach only made him more anxious about the situation. He worried that I was overlooking some big flaw in my plans or that something we had no way of anticipating would come out of left field and cause problems, and I was like, "Well if I am then I have no way of knowing it, so what good does it do to worry about it?" His criticism toward my approach was frustrating because I was essentially being told that my Se was inadequate without being offered any type of solution.

    Despite their highly observant nature, SLEs are careful to avoid appearing too eager for knowledge. They become suspicious when others are overly curious about them and ask too many searching questions. SLEs are more comfortable asking and responding to specific questions that are relevant to the context rather than general ones whose purpose is unknown. When the information being exchanged is too broad and general, SLEs may wonder what the point is or whether someone is planning to use that information to take advantage of them.
    Sure?

    Concerns about revealing too much information about themselves and their activities sometimes makes SLEs appear paranoid and secretive.
    Probably.


    Now, jumping back to what I was saying about Ne ignoring/Ni dominance balancing out a Ne role, I would like to address the nature of the Role function. I've always thought that the Role is something that we feel we must do in order to get by in the world, but that we're not good at it. The wikisocion description focuses primarily on how weak Ne manifests itself in SLE's, but it doesn't really address the nature of how SLE's feel they must use Ne in order to get by the world. I think that in worrying that there are possibilities that must be taken into account (and not being aware of which ones are actually likely to be a problem, Ni) SLE's (at least some of them) are actually paranoid about various possibilities, partially concerning breaking rules/laws (as rules/laws tends to be a focus for them) and especially concerning how people are going to feel or react to things. This is where NiFe (and Ne ignoring) comes in and helps them. My IEI friend, as I stated before, tells me that I worry too much for this reason. When he tells me that I'm worrying about something I don't need to worry about, I explain my reasons for worrying about it (often related to Ti). Sometimes he says that I have a good point and changes his perspective on it as well, and sometimes he explains the situation in a way that makes me realize that I am worrying needlessly and that things are going to be fine. Often we come up with another plan that takes the valid parts of my concerns into account while still accomplishing what we want to do. Other times we decide to just scrap the plan altogether. (There are also times when he points out problems with a plan and we either alter it or scrap it.)
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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    Your Fe hidden agenda will overflow the whole internet, Joy!
    ILE "Searcher"
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    Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
    MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
    Astrological sign: Aquarius

    To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.

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    Fi: My Fi sucks. It's definitely NOT an area of confidence. And I've experienced a lot of problems throughout my life due to weak Fi. I don't want to get too in depth about the details here, but I'll just say that I'm horrible at knowing how people feel about me (or how I feel about them), I'm confounded when people try to tell me that something is right or wrong without being able to give me a clear reason as to why, I generally think in terms of "good idea" or "bad idea" rather than right vs. wrong, I don't feel comfortable determining that someone is a "good person" or "evil person", I'm suspicious (even paranoid) about other people's intentions for and feelings towards me, I'm often unclear about what behavior is appropriate in a given situation, etc.

    Bottom line: I suck at Fi enormously and it has caused a great deal of trouble for me. It's an area that I have a severe lack of confidence in, which has sucked. A lot. I've decided to start focusing more on my strengths though.
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    Your Fe hidden agenda will overflow the whole internet, Joy!
    zomg open the flood gates!!!
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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    Ni: This is the information element that I understand the least. Everything about my thought processes that I had attributed to Ni I've now realized was Ti, so I'm at a bit of a loss as to how Ni actually presents itself. I have mentioned it in a few of my previous posts (as it relates to Se and Ne), and aside from that I'll just say that I fully identify with the wikisocion description of Ni in SLE's.
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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    Fe: I identify 100% with all of the wikisocion description of Fe in SLE's, except one part:

    SLEs are unable to suppress the manifestations of their moods, and thus greatly appreciate individuals who can deal with their sudden, uncontrollable outbursts of emotions.
    Negative. If I'm upset, I become quiet and withdrawn. I used to have these uncontrolled outbursts, but they were met with severe criticism by both of my previous relationships (which in total represent the last eight years of my life), so I learned not to blow up for the most part. It would still happen on occasion, but not very often. Exceptions would be if I was already in a bad mood and was having trouble with some stupid little task that should not be as difficult as it was proving to be. In that case I'd yell and curse... not at someone but just out of frustration. I don't do that much anymore these days, either.

    Additionally, at this point it's difficult to upset me. I take most things in stride. I'm one of the least easily offended people I know, and I recognize that there are very few things that are worth getting upset over.

    For many SLEs, expressive activities such as acting, musical performance or even religion serve as ideal "ethical vents", helping to give them the emotional release they struggle to find in other areas of society.
    For me it's music.

    Apart from the things mentioned in the wikisocion description, I would like to add that I find being around Fe creatives very freeing and refreshing. They boost my mood considerably and diffuse stress. This is invaluable to me. A fun or relaxed atmosphere is something I had experienced very little of until I started hanging out with my IEI friend and spending time at work with a couple of SEI's there.

    I will add that I've found that I am FAR more effective and productive when I have someone offering me Fe to help me manage stress. I can accomplish a lot and make short work of what many would consider to be large problems as long as I am not totally stressed out. A little bit of creative Fe works wonders for diffusing my stress.

    Additionally, pretty much everything I've said negatively about Fe in my time on the forum has been based on interactions with ESE's. While I find them funny and enjoy them in small doses, overall they're annoying to deal with and their form of Fe tires and bores and annoys me more than it amuses me.
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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    Joy's Avatar
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    Si: Things I had previously attributed to a Si PoLR in myself I now readily recognize as mere symptoms of depression. I don't have trouble with any of them anymore.

    I identify entirely with the wikisocion description of Si in SLE's. I will add a few things though.

    First of all, I feel that pain and discomfort are things that are to be subordinated to my will. I have an extremely high tolerance for pain (according to various people in health care professions that I've dealt with over the years, such as dentists and massage therapists). This ability to subordinate discomfort to my will makes accomplishing objectives such as losing weight easy for me once I've resolved to do it.

    Secondly, I'm well aware of how to take care of my body properly. I just do what makes sense and don't focus on it all that much. If it feels like I'm coming down with something, I'll sleep extra and take vitamin c and zinc. No need to make a fuss about it. On the subject of sleep, if I don't sleep much (or at all) for one night, and I can function just fine the next day. If I haven't been sleeping enough over a period of time, however, then I'll feel run down and know I need to start sleeping more, and I'll do it.

    Aesthetics in my surroundings are something I focus on to a very limited extent. I appreciate things like nice furniture, flattering clothes, and a comfortable bed, but those things aren't a huge focus for me. One thing I do value though is fresh air and natural light in my house while I'm there. And I hate dog hair. My dogs are moving out in a month and a half, and I will NEVER again own a pet that sheds.

    I'm good at cooking when I choose to do it, but that's not very often. I see food as fuel for the most part. When I do cook these days, it's social. I'm showing off my skills, lol.

    I know when I look good and when I don't. I hadn't looked good for a few years now, but at this point I've lost enough weight to be confident in my appearance again.

    Basically, I generally take a goal oriented approach to health issues or bodily conditions. If there's a problem, I fix it. No need to fuss or worry.

    There's another aspect to Si that I think is often overlooked, and that is mechanical aptitude (whether the "machine" is a car or the human body or something that needs to be put together or anything else of the sort). These are things that I have little patience for, generally speaking. I can deal with them when I need to though. I do find the operations of the human body interesting, but that's more of a scientific and/or a goal seeking interest.
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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    SLEs have the ability to pick out information which will help them achieve a goal; they will often refer to well-known facts, statistics and historical examples to back up their claims. Often their own viewpoint will remain standing in the face of a majority opinion, as they know how to formulate a strong argument. SLEs will often question the authenticity or reliability of informational sources, preferring not to use those which are doubtful or which have been proven wrong in the past. They enjoy learning about a wide variety of things, and are motivated by the prospect of rewards and status; they like to prove their authority and skills e.g. through a large amount of academic awards or extra curricular certificates.

    SLEs are very practical, hard-working individuals. They know how to utilize their time effectively in order to reach any given goal, and have no problem discerning efficiency and utility from incompetence and uselessness. Nonetheless, they retain a kind of "don't care" attitude when it comes to productivity and effectiveness. They feel that it is a waste of time to sit around and discuss efficiency, and would rather act effectively. SLEs may playfully mock those who they believe are "obsessed" with productivity, efficiency or effective action.

    SLEs often assume the role of someone who is always ready to assist people in their practical affairs, even to the point of others' annoyance or offense to the SLE's obtrusiveness (which is simply enthusiasm to the SLE). They enjoy receiving thanks for their services, and take full responsibility for their actions. Their intentions towards others in this area are generally always good.
    I agree with all of this, but I identify especially strongly with the bolded part.

    It doesn't bother me when others have weak Te because I've got enough to go around. I actually find weak Te, especially in IEI's, cute and endearing.

    I'm confident in Te areas and don't mind focusing on Te when I need to. It comes naturally. tbh, if it weren't for the Fe vs. Fi valuing aspect of the Te/Fi vs. Fe/Ti dichotomy, I might not be certain whether I value Te or Ti more. I do focus on Ti more than Te though in that Te is something that seems to happen by itself while Ti is more built into my conscious thought processes.
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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    EffyCold thePirate's Avatar
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    Its not like this was even neccessary but this only further cements that you are NOT an SLE. First off, what kind of fucking SLE would write pages upon pages defending their type? An SLE more or less would not give a damn and certainly would not write to this massive degree about it. Neither would they have a manga character as their avatar, or rate anime in their spare time.

    I find it silly to even engage this topic, typing through wikisocion is not that great of an approach to finding your type. They dont capture certain subtleties that can only be experienced when interacting with certain types.

    Your breakdown for example: despite agreeing with almost everything you show no signs of SLE communication, you do not talk or write like them. You may be agreeing with what you perceive these certain elements to be like, yet you do not convey an affinity to them with your tone of writing. Also the way in which you relate to them seems VERY superficial to me. Basically, your word in embodying them is all that is seen. Actually embodying them is the key component your lacking.

    Another thing is you say you need Ni but dont even know what it is. This statement is fucking ridiculous to me.



    "I am always very aware of the rules, policies, and procedures of any organization I am dealing with, whether it's the law or work or a class. It's important to me to understand both the reasons those rules/procedures exist and the likely consequences of breaking them. The ones I agree with I adopt, and I remind others of them when they're breaking them (generally explaining why that rule exists or what might happen if they break it). Sometimes I do it in a "technically it's supposed to be done this way" or "you're not technically supposed to do that" kind of way followed up by my own thoughts on the matter, including how important the rule is. When someone breaks a rule/law, my thoughts generally turn to how the rule is enforced or what recourse is available within that and related systems (whether it's the recourse for those enforcing the rules, those somehow hurt because the rule has been broken, or the one breaking the rule who must now find a way to respond to the rule's enforcement). If I do not have this information, I quickly obtain it. I either look it up myself or ask someone. The person I ask is selected based on their understanding of the rules AND their position in regards to either helping or hindering me (or the person involved) towards their objective based on their level of power and interests in the situation."

    is indicative of SeTi? you remind others when their breaking rules? really?


    "Yes, I'm basing this on behavior and qualities I'm seeing, but I can recognize leadership qualities in others (maybe that's just Se though) and can see when all it would take for someone to make use of their abilities is their resolve to do so and confidence that they can (that's just Se too, I suppose). "

    No, its not. WTF
    <Crispy> what subt doesnt understand is that a healthy reaction to "FUCK YOU" is and not

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    I read this shit on another site, it just seems so fake. you say you relate or agree or whatever but the examples dont add up. it just seems like your trying to be something your not.

    I dont even think your beta

    you say how good this INFp makes you feel, that it has to be duality.

    have you experienced this feeling with multiple IEIs?
    how would you even know if you cant recognize Ni?

    how would you know that its distinct/real? sarinana said something in another thread about infps & making relationships with anyone feel like duality; I find this capability as something very real. Have yet to see how you really resonate with beta values.

    ugh
    <Crispy> what subt doesnt understand is that a healthy reaction to "FUCK YOU" is and not

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    Quote Originally Posted by thePirate View Post
    Its not like this was even neccessary but this only further cements that you are NOT an SLE. First off, what kind of fucking SLE would write pages upon pages defending their type?
    Not defending. Explaining. I don't care who agrees or disagrees. I only wrote it because there were several people who asked for an explanation, and I told them I'd give them one. It got long because I had nothing better to do and was trying to think of everything that might be relevant.

    I find it silly to even engage this topic, typing through wikisocion is not that great of an approach to finding your type. They dont capture certain subtleties that can only be experienced when interacting with certain types.
    I agree. I definitely did not use wikisocion to find my type. I just used the description as a point of reference. There are other SLE descriptions I identify with as well, but they're either a lot longer or don't break it down it into specific information elements.

    I will agree that descriptions aren't necessarily the best way to evaluate someone's type. The same functional arrangement can manifest different ways in different individuals, and it's easy to misinterpret descriptions and misattribute characteristics described in them. Fortunately, descriptions of SLE's have not been a central focus in my evaluation of my type. The central focus has been what information elements I feel most "me" when I use and what information elements in others bring out the best in me.

    Your breakdown for example: despite agreeing with almost everything you show no signs of SLE communication, you do not talk or write like them. You may be agreeing with what you perceive these certain elements to be like, yet you do not convey an affinity to them with your tone of writing.
    Whatever that means. I know I'm too serious a lot of the time... the last couple of days being great examples. I wouldn't be spending so much time online if I wasn't feeling sort of bleh. I'd be actually doing stuff (such as preparing for my mythology exam instead of posting a lengthy response to you, lol).

    The more time I spend around IEI's (and EIE's, actually), the less I'm like this.

    Also the way in which you relate to them seems VERY superficial to me. Basically, your word in embodying them is all that is seen. Actually embodying them is the key component your lacking.
    I won't argue with your observation. I don't know what you're seeing or not seeing, but it's yours to see or not see.

    Another thing is you say you need Ni but dont even know what it is. This statement is fucking ridiculous to me.
    Good point. I should probably clarify.

    I have a basic understanding of Ni according to the theory. I can also recognize Ni in people's ego blocks sometimes (certainly not all the time though as not everyone's types are readily apparent) contrasted to Si, Ne, or especially Se. I can recognize some manifestations of Ni ego, particularly in people's responses to Se. Right now primarily understand it for how it balances out Se dominance and a Ne Role as described in my posts.

    The thing I really don't understand (but would like to) is how it actually works when someone is using it and what it's like to use it. I had thought that I did, so I'm at a bit of a loss.

    "I am always very aware of the rules, policies, and procedures of any organization I am dealing with, whether it's the law or work or a class. It's important to me to understand both the reasons those rules/procedures exist and the likely consequences of breaking them. The ones I agree with I adopt, and I remind others of them when they're breaking them (generally explaining why that rule exists or what might happen if they break it). Sometimes I do it in a "technically it's supposed to be done this way" or "you're not technically supposed to do that" kind of way followed up by my own thoughts on the matter, including how important the rule is. When someone breaks a rule/law, my thoughts generally turn to how the rule is enforced or what recourse is available within that and related systems (whether it's the recourse for those enforcing the rules, those somehow hurt because the rule has been broken, or the one breaking the rule who must now find a way to respond to the rule's enforcement). If I do not have this information, I quickly obtain it. I either look it up myself or ask someone. The person I ask is selected based on their understanding of the rules AND their position in regards to either helping or hindering me (or the person involved) towards their objective based on their level of power and interests in the situation."

    is indicative of SeTi? you remind others when their breaking rules? really?
    Yeah, if it's causing problems or if they're likely to get in trouble. And it's not so much reminding them, it's explaining it to them. I don't say "you're breaking a rule". I say "we do it this way because of this and that" (which is pretty much related to policies/procedures at work) or tell them that they're likely to get in trouble (this is more related to friends than to coworkers). Maybe I'm just finding myself warning people about trouble they can get into lately because of the specific people I'm dealing with though, lol. Youth vs. experience. I'm certainly not like this with people who don't need to hear it. Ugh. I think I need more friends that are my age or older.

    Maybe this isn't a typical SLE attribute. I don't know. It's related to Ti though, which is why I included it.

    "Yes, I'm basing this on behavior and qualities I'm seeing, but I can recognize leadership qualities in others (maybe that's just Se though) and can see when all it would take for someone to make use of their abilities is their resolve to do so and confidence that they can (that's just Se too, I suppose). "

    No, its not. WTF
    Recognizing a person's strength of will is related to Se. This particular manifestation of it may be an individual thing though.

    Quote Originally Posted by thePirate View Post
    I read this shit on another site, it just seems so fake. you say you relate or agree or whatever but the examples dont add up. it just seems like your trying to be something your not.
    I'm not "trying to be" anything.

    If there's anything unnatural about my posts it's that I even made them to begin with. I used to spend a lot of time online, including posting here A LOT, but I haven't been doing that for a while now. Except the past few days.

    Alright, I've decided it's time for me to buck up and snap out of it and get back to work on preparing for my mythology exam. I've already put like 10 hours into making these damn flashcards, but I'm almost done. I'm going to finish this post and then do that.

    I dont even think your beta
    congrats

    you say how good this INFp makes you feel, that it has to be duality.

    have you experienced this feeling with multiple IEIs?
    Yes. There's another IEI at work, but she's an old lady and she's a little slow. We get along extremely well, but she's not someone I interact with in great depth.

    There's another IEI that I'm friends with and talk to a lot, but I've specifically left out mention of her because she's a member of this community and I want to respect her privacy and also because I want to leave debates about her type out of this. I value her input even more than that of the IEI friend I've been referencing, but since we primarily use written communication instead of hanging out in person (though I have met her in person once) the "dualizing energy" or whatever that I get from in person interactions with IEI's (even the old lady IEI, lol) is not nearly as apparent.

    I dated an IEI at one point, but it didn't work out because he was gay (that is, far more attracted to men than to women). I couldn't trust him not to cheat on me with men, so I refused to be in an exclusive relationship with him. He, on the other hand, wanted to get more serious, so I broke it off. We definitely did dualize though. If there had never been a mutual attraction leading us to date, we probably would have stayed good friends.

    how would you know that its distinct/real?
    I think I've addressed this sufficiently already. There isn't any way to KNOW that it's distinct/real, but based on everything I've already described on the subject, I see no reason to doubt it.

    sarinana said something in another thread about infps & making relationships with anyone feel like duality; I find this capability as something very real.
    Definitely. I see it, too. When they're doing this though, it seems they're reserving some aspect of themselves, holding something back.

    Have yet to see how you really resonate with beta values.

    ugh
    Values such as?
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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    take a second of me sarinana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thePirate View Post
    I read this shit on another site, it just seems so fake. you say you relate or agree or whatever but the examples dont add up. it just seems like your trying to be something your not.

    I dont even think your beta

    you say how good this INFp makes you feel, that it has to be duality.

    have you experienced this feeling with multiple IEIs?
    how would you even know if you cant recognize Ni?

    how would you know that its distinct/real? sarinana said something in another thread about infps & making relationships with anyone feel like duality; I find this capability as something very real. Have yet to see how you really resonate with beta values.

    ugh
    nihihih did I made you feel proud of yourself?

    Several INFp guys told me that I am the first person they feel they can talk openly about anything and don't hold themselves back.

    My INFp girlfriend once told me "When I am around you I feel like I want to be a badass. It's like you are spreading the energy of freedom and I feel like I can do anything crazy and everything will end up fine."

    And so I was like "what a fuck are you talking about." turned to my ILI best friend and asked if it is really this way. And ILI replied "Sure. Whenever I do something awful at the same moment I see you doing something even more awful. Way to feel good about myself."

    I felt honored that night. but not honored enough to call myself SLE.
    Last edited by sarinana; 04-07-2010 at 12:04 AM.
    Sincerely Yours,

    Beyond the clouds. Beyond the sun.

    The Rebel without a cause.

  16. #16
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    tl;dr

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    constant change electric sheep's Avatar
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    Enneagram 3s are the best at distorting their own personalities, so I think they would be the hardest to pin down socionically.
    The saddest ESFj

    ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by thePirate View Post
    Its not like this was even neccessary but this only further cements that you are NOT an SLE. First off, what kind of fucking SLE would write pages upon pages defending their type? An SLE more or less would not give a damn and certainly would not write to this massive degree about it.
    Yeah.

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    I just can't help but laugh when a person who claims to not care about other people's opinions makes a thread solely for the purpose of justifying themselves to the public. Really, Joy, I have nothing personal against you, but when are you going to drop the bullshit?


    Quote Originally Posted by electric sheep View Post
    Enneagram 3s are the best at distorting their own personalities, so I think they would be the hardest to pin down socionically.
    Yup. Joy is probably 3w2 sp/sx.

  20. #20
    i'll tear down the sky Mattie's Avatar
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    The examples you quoted in your OPs were rather generalized personality traits that anyone with any type can have. I think when it comes to those who are constantly switching their type, they are focusing too much on surface personality traits, which Socionics doesn't claim causation to, instead of their thought-processes, which is what Socionics is directly concerned with.

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    EffyCold thePirate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by look.to.the.sky View Post
    The examples you quoted in your OPs were rather generalized personality traits that anyone with any type can have. I think when it comes to those who are constantly switching their type, they are focusing too much on surface personality traits, which Socionics doesn't claim causation to, instead of their thought-processes, which is what Socionics is directly concerned with.
    Yes, exactly. Thats what I mean about you relating to these things VERY superfically, I dont think you relly understand what these elements are yet.


    As far as writing this thread goes, my point still stands. Regardless of whether you were explaining or defending an SLE would not take the time to write pages upon pages doing this. Same goes for the rules thing, I wasnt asking really in the sense of a sincere question. I was asking it in the sense that it gave me a WTF reaction that you would think this is indicative of SLE. You do realize that what you are saying is a part of what IEI provide for SLE right? Why would an SLE be reminding other people of breaking rules, they generally let people do whatever they want & are too busy breaking them theirselves.

    Another little thing is how you constantly keep clarifying

    "Not explaining but defending"
    "Im not trying to be anything"
    "it's not so much reminding them, it's explaining it to them"

    Its stuff like this that points you away from SLE. This is not how SLEs react to what they would perceive as being misrepresented, the tone would change and it wouldnt come out like this. Regardless of your intent, this sounds like a justification to me. Theres a nitpickiness over words here that is not evident of SLE.

    Its little stuff like this that your posting history are filled with that indicate otherwise. As far as beta values, its abit lengthy to explain and I have to get going soon. Im sure you can pull up a post or two. Betas to me have this energy, one of a particular strength and force that is very distinct to me. Impactful? I guess you could call it. A certain humor as well. I dont see this in you at all and really have trouble seeing how you would dualize an IEI. The examples you have given thus far have been generic and is not how this duality manifests IME

    (I have checked out a couple of posts where you discussed this on another site)

    Joy, I understand that as a 3 this will probably be a little more difficult for you. But dont make the mistake of mistyping yourself. I am definitely sure you arent SLE. Its just not possible.

    Look into the other types.
    <Crispy> what subt doesnt understand is that a healthy reaction to "FUCK YOU" is and not

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    Well I'm definitely logical (as I focus on and have confidence in Te and Ti but not in Fe or Fi) and value Se... and I'm definitely not ILI... so that only leaves three options. I'm not worried about it though. I posted an explanation of my typing in case anyone was interested in hearing it, but I'm not "searching" for my type and see no reason to. I think SLE fits, and it doesn't matter to me if posters here agree or disagree.
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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  23. #23
    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana View Post
    This is true. It makes an enormous difference. How do you take things in, how does your mind work? We have these ditches that our processing runs through, and they're carved deep. Our minds don't all work the same way, they have their own type of processing, and that's where type is. Those paths can be warped (chemicals, very high-stress, trauma, etc.) but the type is the paths your mind naturally follows when it's not being forced from its banks into new channels. (And if anyone says that's too abstract to understand, go play with water for awhile, making mini-rivers in the mud.)
    Good metaphor says I.
    I think SLE fits, and it doesn't matter to me if posters here agree or disagree.
    Argh. I don't want to be negative, 'cause I like you and we've gotten on well in every forum conversation we've had (that I can remember), but, yes, you do care. Please stop lying.

    That said, there are a few things pirate said that are not exactly right: SLEs can be quite rule-abiding (they just have to focus on the cause-and-effect aspect rather than the emotional bond aspect).

    Nevertheless, I have to be honest, I'm not really getting the SLE vibe either. Maybe it's a little submerged or something.

    Now, as for thinking seriously about your type (if for no one's benefit than my own ). Okay, I'm way to lazy to read that whole thing (at least right now), but I would say don't rule out ESE too fast. The reason I say this is that one of my best friends in life is ESE and she is actually very willing to be firm and "so fix it" with people. The difference between ESE pressure and SLE pressure is that ESE pressure is emotional and SLE pressure is volitional. They may use the exact same words, but the vibe will be different. When an Se-ego says, "just do it" or "so fix it" or "stop screwing around and get to work!" the force comes from the implied threat that they will use their force against you if you fail to do so (or more accurately, the guarantee for their command is the fact that they are forceful/powerful people). When an ESE says, "just do it" or "so fix it" or "stop screwing around," they're doing what some psychologist lady who's name I can't remember calls indexing. That is, they're very literally playing SLE. But there's no actual threat of force. They get you to do it by emotional pressure... it's more external to their actual emotional state at the moment. It's analogous to how mothers do it. A mother may be feeling wildly joyful, but she always knows how to turn on the "Angry (Black) Momma" face to get the child to do something when necessary. It's a very subtle difference, and I'm not describing it well, but it's there, I promise. I'm going to keep my eyes pealed for examples so that I can describe it better.

    Also, my ESE friend uses axiomatic statements like "where there's a will, there's a way" in much the same way that you do.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

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    ESE is one of the least likely types for me. I was married to an LII and worked closely with an ESE for 4 years. I am definitely not ESE.
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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    How are we duals? I just am not seeing that....

    You change your type so much Joy. this is like the 23439473th time you changed it. So you will be SLE until you are ISTj again or something.

    The descriptions are too vague. Everybody is all those qualities in the right circumstances....

    But I think that other people shouldn't judge you too much either, I mean we all sort of show a different sides of ourselves that this forum brings out that isn't necessarily related to who we are (but that doesn't mean everybody is faking it or putting on a 'social mask' either)

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    Or, you could 'fanwank' it and say that my personal dislike for you stems from the fact that I, as a 6, disintegrate to 3 and you're a 3 soooo lol.

    To be perfectly blunt, I think it's because you sort of have that 'bossy mommy' vibe to you, like the stereotypical mother of every male that's in middle-class therapy. This could just be my perception though so don't take it the wrong way. I mean I don't really want to use a 'theory' to mask my personal distaste for you, or why I feel there's this sudden 'roadblock' to us getting along, personally. Even if I agree with you, I think the age difference or something would always make me feel like 'you're the teacher' and 'I'm the student.'

    We both sort of like epic rpgs though? Or something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    Or, you could 'fanwank' it and say that my personal dislike for you stems from the fact that I, as a 6, disintegrate to 3 and you're a 3 soooo lol.

    To be perfectly blunt, I think it's because you sort of have that 'bossy mommy' vibe to you, like the stereotypical mother of every male that's in middle-class therapy. This could just be my perception though so don't take it the wrong way. I mean I don't really want to use a 'theory' to mask my personal distaste for you, or why I feel there's this sudden 'roadblock' to us getting along, personally. Even if I agree with you, I think the age difference or something would always make me feel like 'you're the teacher' and 'I'm the student.'
    Yeah... Lately I actually feel like I'm like that too much in general, too.

    We both sort of like epic rpgs though? Or something.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    You change your type so much Joy. this is like the 23439473th time you changed it. So you will be SLE until you are ISTj again or something.
    I haven't actually "changed my type" for like 4 years except from LIE to SLE. I was just joking about being LSI when it was in my sig a few months ago.
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    Really from where I'm standing it just seems like you're the type of person that needs to feel uhh morally certain about stuff. You need to like, know you're making a difference. I don't think you can say 'well isn't everybody like that?' Because they really aren't.

    I say you're more 1ish than 3, really...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    ESE is one of the least likely types for me. I was married to an LII and worked closely with an ESE for 4 years. I am definitely not ESE.
    Or you just suck at typing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    Really from where I'm standing it just seems like you're the type of person that needs to feel uhh morally certain about stuff. You need to like, know you're making a difference. I don't think you can say 'well isn't everybody like that?' Because they really aren't.

    I say you're more 1ish than 3, really...
    Really? Interesting. I don't feel that way at all. Sure it feels good to have a positive impact on people, but it's not something I think about all that much. And I'm never morally certain about anything. I do have something of a concept of a moral system, but it's too vague to really be applicable, and it's not something I focus on. It's just something I came up with in response to issues discussed in my philosophy class.
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    Good metaphor says I.


    Argh. I don't want to be negative, 'cause I like you and we've gotten on well in every forum conversation we've had (that I can remember), but, yes, you do care. Please stop lying.

    That said, there are a few things pirate said that are not exactly right: SLEs can be quite rule-abiding (they just have to focus on the cause-and-effect aspect rather than the emotional bond aspect).

    Nevertheless, I have to be honest, I'm not really getting the SLE vibe either. Maybe it's a little submerged or something.

    Now, as for thinking seriously about your type (if for no one's benefit than my own ). Okay, I'm way to lazy to read that whole thing (at least right now), but I would say don't rule out ESE too fast. The reason I say this is that one of my best friends in life is ESE and she is actually very willing to be firm and "so fix it" with people. The difference between ESE pressure and SLE pressure is that ESE pressure is emotional and SLE pressure is volitional. They may use the exact same words, but the vibe will be different. When an Se-ego says, "just do it" or "so fix it" or "stop screwing around and get to work!" the force comes from the implied threat that they will use their force against you if you fail to do so (or more accurately, the guarantee for their command is the fact that they are forceful/powerful people). When an ESE says, "just do it" or "so fix it" or "stop screwing around," they're doing what some psychologist lady who's name I can't remember calls indexing. That is, they're very literally playing SLE. But there's no actual threat of force. They get you to do it by emotional pressure... it's more external to their actual emotional state at the moment. It's analogous to how mothers do it. A mother may be feeling wildly joyful, but she always knows how to turn on the "Angry (Black) Momma" face to get the child to do something when necessary. It's a very subtle difference, and I'm not describing it well, but it's there, I promise. I'm going to keep my eyes pealed for examples so that I can describe it better.

    Also, my ESE friend uses axiomatic statements like "where there's a will, there's a way" in much the same way that you do.
    yeah, maybe I didnt explain it too well

    when I talked about SLE being more into breaking rules I said that as a slight joke not to be taken too literally; I was trying to use it to contrast Joys rule FOCUS. while I DO believe they are generally on the rule breaking side of things though, they definitely can be rule abiding but not in the sense that Joy is here. I guess maybe SLE wouldnt talk about it outwardly like this? she puts a sense of importance on it that I dont see SLE putting on. something like that anyway
    <Crispy> what subt doesnt understand is that a healthy reaction to "FUCK YOU" is and not

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    It's only important when it's important. And when in dealing with the types of circumstances I have been lately, it has been. I'm certainly not a stickler for the rules. I'm aware of them and disregard the ones that I disagree with or don't care about or don't think I'll get in trouble for breaking. I just tell people when they're being a dumbass and why.

    For example, I was at a party and a group of drunk college age kids decided it would be fun to go sledding in the middle of the night at this huge hill nearby. There are houses VERY close by and signs saying not to sled after dark. I told them that if they went, people would get arrested. Unfortunately, this made me the "party pooper", the one whose fault it was they couldn't go sledding (as several members of the group realized that it was a bad idea and called it off)... but I know I was right. The neighbors would have definitely called the cops, and not all of the kids there were 21. Yes, this was me focusing on "rules", even to the extent of being a "buzz killer", but it would have been a really bad idea to do it and I'm glad they didn't. Would a typical SLE have just gone sledding with them? Who knows. (I probably would have when I was that age.) We already know that I'm not a typical representation of ANY type though, and that aside, I don't think all SLE's in my age group (almost 30) generally behave with such recklessness. When they're in their teens and early twenties, sure. They do mature and start making better decisions with age though. At least the healthy ones do.

    The responses in this topic saying "you just don't give that SLE vibe" seem like they're focusing on your stereotypical immature SLE who doesn't give a fuck about the consequences of their actions. This may be a common attribute in young/immature SLE's, but I certainly don't think all SLE's are like that. What about the mid-fifties business executive SLE? Or the high ranking military officer SLE? Or the upper middle class mid-thirties SLE mom? Surely they have developed beyond the irreverent, carefree, and often thoughtless frat boy mentality that people here seem to consider a make-it-or-break-it attribute when considering SLE as someone's type. Is it really so impossible to believe that an SLE might have it in him/her to behave responsibly, respect others, and be serious when the situation calls for it? And is it really so strange that an SLE who has spend most of his/her life primarily around people who aren't Beta may not naturally act as a typical Beta acts?

    And is interest in things like anime and Magic: The Gathering really exclusive to certain types? With the exception of LSE's and ESE's, I have seen individuals of every type express interest in these types of things. I've even seen an SEE play Magic and read manga.

    Socionics is simply an information processing theory. Two people with the same functional arrangement can be very different from each other, particularly if they're in a very different demographic or life stage, have very different back grounds, and/or are otherwise very different in non-Socionics related ways. Things like subtypes and enneagram types come into play, too. Manifestations of functional arrangements don't play out exactly the same way in any two people of one type and can actually play out very differently, depending on the individuals.
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    Joy I have a question for you.

    Do you like to touch strangers, hug friends or have you ever been reprimanded for having 'loose hands' by someone? Or are you more the opposite of that, in that you don't often touch strangers and hug friends?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    Joy I have a question for you.

    Do you like to touch strangers, hug friends or have you ever been reprimanded for having 'loose hands' by someone? Or are you more the opposite of that, in that you don't often touch strangers and hug friends?
    That's a trap!!!
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    and that aside, I don't think all SLE's in my age group (almost 30) generally behave with such recklessness. When they're in their teens and early twenties, sure. They do mature and start making better decisions with age though. At least the healthy ones do.
    would have to say i disagree. they do continue to be reckless. not stupid, mind you, but reckless and somewhat impulsive in their decision making. they know when someone will get them for being stupid; they anticipate people's response to their actions pretty well. well versed in counter moves you would call it.

    joy you have not seriously changed your type often, esp in light of the amount of time you've been coming here, but when you do you write a lot about why you are so convinced you are whatever the new type is. you argue for that type, use a lot of examples, and generally try to make a case. then people eventually accept the type you say you are. then you switch again, which is what makes you lose credibility. people begin to be suspicious of your logic.

    then there are times you flippantly will say you are one type or another, which compounds this.

    the overall feedback in the thread concerns the superficiality of your logic and the lack of depth in your self knowledge, the rationalizing perhaps.

    i honestly have no idea what type you are, except that you seem to be logical. but it's really not important what type i or anybody else thinks you are....and what's important here could be totally up for grabs and individually defined. what does seem important is your self search and growth. i have found that when i listen closely to people i know IRL esp people who know me well their thoughts and ideas are the best source of information.

    ILE

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    Quote Originally Posted by sarinana View Post
    That's a trap!!!
    I'm just trying to see whether she's more ENTJ or ESTP. Since touching is typical ESTP and non touching typical ENTJ. It's probably the best criteria to distinguish between these two types. Joy can provide the answer to it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    Joy I have a question for you.

    Do you like to touch strangers, hug friends or have you ever been reprimanded for having 'loose hands' by someone? Or are you more the opposite of that, in that you don't often touch strangers and hug friends?
    Never ever reprimanded for having "loose hands". There are friends that I hug, but only if they've hugged me first in the past. I touch strangers when it makes sense to do so... like the other day when a late student was walking up the lecture hall to her seat and the teacher's assistant was trying to chase her down to hand her something and the teacher was talking, I touched her arm as she was about to walk past and motioned to the assistant teacher.

    I generally see a person's "personal bubble" as space that's possession and respect it. The size of a person's bubble depends on how crowded the area is. I am comfortable violating a person's bubble when there's a reason to. I think SLE's are probably more willing to get in someone's space than I am, but I think it's because of a lack of Fe from others in my life over a very long period of time that I don't like to assume that people won't get upset with me or be uncomfortable if I intrude on their space. I wouldn't say I'm anywhere near "fully dualized" yet.

    Basically, I don't have a problem with touching people, but I don't generally just walk up to strangers and touch them for no reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze View Post
    would have to say i disagree. they do continue to be reckless. not stupid, mind you, but reckless and somewhat impulsive in their decision making. they know when someone will get them for being stupid; they anticipate people's response to their actions pretty well. well versed in counter moves you would call it.
    I suppose recklessness and impulsiveness are in the eye of the beholder. I know I used to be quite reckless and have been told by various people lately that I am still reckless, but I don't think I am because like you said, I'm aware of what counter moves or plan B's I can make if needed. I wrote a little bit about what some might consider reckless or impulsive in my post about Ne:
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    I believe that decisive action is important, even if I don't see or have any way of knowing all of the possible outcomes. Fortune favors the bold. I'd rather make mistakes than do nothing at all. Inaction is far too costly. I tend to pick a course of action and then head straight for it, not weighing obstacles (such as unforeseen possibilities) too heavily... I tend to feel I have a grasp on which things require planning and which things you can deal with as they come up. "We'll cross that bridge when we get there." I think this confidence that I'll be able to deal with whatever comes up is also a Se thing, though I use Ti to determine which things require how much immediate attention.
    I don't just have this attitude in pushing towards an end result I want. It's also related to doing "because I feel like it" things.

    joy you have not seriously changed your type often, esp in light of the amount of time you've been coming here, but when you do you write a lot about why you are so convinced you are whatever the new type is. you argue for that type, use a lot of examples, and generally try to make a case. then people eventually accept the type you say you are. then you switch again, which is what makes you lose credibility. people begin to be suspicious of your logic.
    It wasn't until I stopped arguing that I was LIE that people accepted it.

    then there are times you flippantly will say you are one type or another, which compounds this.
    If you're talking about the LSI thing, that was a joke.

    the overall feedback in the thread concerns the superficiality of your logic and the lack of depth in your self knowledge, the rationalizing perhaps.
    Self-knowledge (or rather, the lack thereof) has always been an obstacle for me in self-typing. This time's a little different in that I'm basing it on what I've been like in a time when I was happier and healthier than I've ever been.

    i honestly have no idea what type you are, except that you seem to be logical. but it's really not important what type i or anybody else thinks you are....and what's important here could be totally up for grabs and individually defined. what does seem important is your self search and growth. i have found that when i listen closely to people i know IRL esp people who know me well their thoughts and ideas are the best source of information.
    precisely
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    It's only important when it's important. And when in dealing with the types of circumstances I have been lately, it has been. I'm certainly not a stickler for the rules. I'm aware of them and disregard the ones that I disagree with or don't care about or don't think I'll get in trouble for breaking. I just tell people when they're being a dumbass and why.

    For example, I was at a party and a group of drunk college age kids decided it would be fun to go sledding in the middle of the night at this huge hill nearby. There are houses VERY close by and signs saying not to sled after dark. I told them that if they went, people would get arrested. Unfortunately, this made me the "party pooper", the one whose fault it was they couldn't go sledding (as several members of the group realized that it Smilies
    was a bad idea and called it off)... but I know I was right. The neighbors would have definitely called the cops, and not all of the kids there were 21. Yes, this was me focusing on "rules", even to the extent of being a "buzz killer", but it would have been a really bad idea to do it and I'm glad they didn't. Would a typical SLE have just gone sledding with them? Who knows. (I probably would have when I was that age.) We already know that I'm not a typical representation of ANY type though, and that aside, I don't think all SLE's in my age group (almost 30) generally behave with such recklessness. When they're in their teens and early twenties, sure. They do mature and start making better decisions with age though. At least the healthy ones do.

    The responses in this topic saying "you just don't give that SLE vibe" seem like they're focusing on your stereotypical immature SLE who doesn't give a fuck about the consequences of their actions. This may be a common attribute in young/immature SLE's, but I certainly don't think all SLE's are like that. What about the mid-fifties business executive SLE? Or the high ranking military officer SLE? Or the upper middle class mid-thirties SLE mom? Surely they have developed beyond the irreverent, carefree, and often thoughtless frat boy mentality that people here seem to consider a make-it-or-break-it attribute when considering SLE as someone's type. Is it really so impossible to believe that an SLE might have it in him/her to behave responsibly, respect others, and be serious when the situation calls for it? And is it really so strange that an SLE who has spend most of his/her life primarily around people who aren't Beta may not naturally act as a typical Beta acts?

    And is interest in things like anime and Magic: The Gathering really exclusive to certain types? With the exception of LSE's and ESE's, I have seen individuals of every type express interest in these types of things. I've even seen an SEE play Magic and read manga.
    lol, no its not exclusive. I was joking abit there too.

    Blaze summed it up pretty nicely. As far as you basing your opinion on when you are healthy, thats not the way to go about it. Socionics is about how you were yoru whole life, your tendencies and inclinations and how you have acted. Its not just taking the best times of how you are and typing based off that. Maybe this is a 3 thing? I tried to do that too and it just doesnt work.

    As far as you being surrounded by people who AREN'T betas, thats not a valid statement to defend your typing. You still would act in ways that are true to your type. Your giving out alot of reasons of why you may be an atypical SLE, but this doesnt exist. Whenever people start talking like this, they're going the wrong way. There are more mature SLEs, business SLEs, etc. But the CORE of who they are will be there. That example you gave about recklessness was basically you stating your mindset; this doesnt really say anything. Give examples. And no, you dont seem reckless or umpulsive at all like an SLE.

    "I am comfortable violating a person's bubble when there's a reason to. I think SLE's are probably more willing to get in someone's space than I am, but I think it's because of a lack of Fe from others in my life over a very long period of time that I don't like to assume that people won't get upset with me or be uncomfortable if I intrude on their space. I wouldn't say I'm anywhere near "fully dualized" yet."

    Rationalizations like this dont work, lack of Fe wont make you atypical. If theres a lack of Fe, SLE will interact with their environment to get it whether it be through Se physicality or a playful comment or whatever. So this would be an INCLINATION to act. As far as being physical goes, SLE are good at gauging that kind of stuff so this isnt really a worry for them like it is for you. What your saying suggests deficient Se.



    Look, I havent been around betas all my life. Not even Se types. My dad is an ESTj, and just for the sake fo arguement Im going to put this out there; some people do still think Im ENFj. Whether you accept Im ENFj or INFp, living with an ESTj for these types is NOT GOOD. Essentially what Ive had to do all my life is mold myself to fit him. I actually have memories of him supressing my values, telling me specifically to NOT act like my type. Not in those words so much, but to not say Fe valuing statements, forcing Te down my throat, etc etc. Coming to an understanding now, I have always more or less acted in the way of a beta NF. Supressing it was a work of my Fe and Ni functions respectively; so while I was 'different' I wasnt atypical as my main functions were still the driving factors of my life.

    I can see you being a logical type Joy, but I dont know about you being a sensor. I think thats up for debate. As far as judging on stereotypical vibes go, that really isnt the case. this is more rationalization I think; types having a distinct vibe is something very real. Its not about focusing on stereotypes at all, but focusing on things like what you focus on and how you write, etc. Things that generally can not be faked and are reliable indicators of type.
    <Crispy> what subt doesnt understand is that a healthy reaction to "FUCK YOU" is and not

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    I am an atypical representation of my type no matter what that type is.

    Have you read Rick's article about awakening the ego? It's on socionics.us. If you haven't, I'd encouagre you to at least skim through it. I do believe that, assuming Socionics is valid, there are people who act primarily out of their ego block (the ones who have had their ego block rewarded) and people who focus more on their other blocks. The ones who don't act primarily out of their ego block are the ones who are more difficult to type. They're more internally conflicted and as a result probably less consistant in their behavior.
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