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Thread: music, communication, and the socion

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    Default music, communication, and the socion

    deleted, because I like the discussion below better
    Last edited by Nexus; 05-14-2010 at 03:00 AM.

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    Haikus
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    Not sure if this goes along with anything here, but I thought posting it would bring back some memories of it, possibly sparking something new, from here Music - Wikisocion.

    beautiful melodies and harmonies without many embellishments; slow broken chords;

    dramatic embellishments; high, wailing sounds; manipulating sound quality to create a wrenching effect; dramatic melodies that are largely independent of chord structure; imitation of sounds (of human voice, laughter, animals, etc.) using instruments;

    high focus on patterns of notes and structure of melody, harmony, and tonal progressions; meaningful repetition

    well-articulated, strong, unchanging rhythm; melody highly dependent on chord changes; preference for fairly fast tempo (e.g. a fast walk); strongly defined sections

    flowing sound texture; use of nature-imitating sounds; avoidance of fast rhythm; preference for swift melodic resolution and clearly minor or clearly major chords

    heavy, percussive beat; strong "power chords" (in rock music); extensive use in classical music of brass, timpani, other percussion to convey a sense of bigness (not necessarily loud)

    use of echoes and reverberation; gradual emergence of chords; lack of emphasis on percussion

    use of eclectic, "random" melodic structures, styles, and concepts within the same composition; continuous melodic embellishment; introducing new melodies, textures, and variations through the course of a piece

    I just remembered this article. I relate mostly to the Fi and Ne associations, especially when composing my own music. I tend to get a kick out of some parts of Se and Fe though, and definitely get a kick out of the Fi one in other music. Not sure if these are legit, but they seem like fun.

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    jughead's Avatar
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    To me it seems an ILE would be seeking some SI through his TI desconstruction;hes basically saying this lacks Si because the Ti is weak. Fucking up the rules or lacking technicality can make the music sound unpleasing to the ear for example and boring. Even if a song is good sounding the first time, it will get old the 100th. The more a person is trained in music to the greater there depth of knowledge and criticism will be.

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    jughead's Avatar
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    Huiz by "critically" you are referring to the ego? AKA Ne for an ILE? Does this include any percieving IM for that person: NI, SI, etc ?
    I have no idea what you mean by literally and hypothetically, what are reasoning and deciding IM's?
    In fact I'm only getting a vague idea of what your saying at all,

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    Quote Originally Posted by jughead View Post
    Huiz by "critically" you are referring to the ego? AKA Ne for an ILE? Does this include any percieving IM for that person: NI, SI, etc ?
    I have no idea what you mean by literally and hypothetically, what are reasoning and deciding IM's?
    In fact I'm only getting a vague idea of what your saying at all,
    yes, and I mean with the persuasion of doubt; example: negativist IM, or positivist IM when the accepting function has been strongly negated by the ignoring function

    literally means at face value; so perhaps a sense or thought accepting IM

    hypothetically means not at face value (with implications that lead to Quine-Duhem Thesis), so an intuition or emotion accepting IM

    reasoning IM lies on the / ego axis
    deciding IM lies on the / ego axis

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    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
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    I reaaaally don't think any relationship between information elements and music preference actually holds. It seems much more common to notice a link between enneagram type and musical taste. Said that, I notice the band "Extreme" seems to be one of the favorites among my ENTj friends (I like it a lot, myself):



    which would actually coincide with:

    well-articulated, strong, unchanging rhythm; melody highly dependent on chord changes; preference for fairly fast tempo (e.g. a fast walk); strongly defined sections
    Last edited by FDG; 03-27-2010 at 02:57 PM.
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    Creepy-Cyclops

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    Anyone ever heard the expression, something like, "music unites all"?

    Music is something that's popularly said as breaking down barriers. The thing about music, why it is given such observations, is that music is something which is universal among the socion. Music breaks down barriers in the context of appealing to all types.

    @huitz, again you demonstrate your dominant Ni with this thread of yours, oh and as usual (along with your typing) show you don't know wtf you're talking about.

    As a sort of related observation, looking through this thread so far..is everyone or almost everyone who's been quick to respond in your quadra? (gamma).

    Oh, OK maybe the @huitz isn't relevant to this thread, but... in a way it maybe is. Sorry if it is a derailment, just thought it necessary in this given moment, for some reason. Although...heh.... won't say much more (is there a point in furthering, I suppose...).

    Edit 2: Oh, yeah, just in case ... you're gamma NT as i've said before (INTp, ILI).. Although I think you're INTp, i'd consider ENTj only on basis that I "supervise" you so much, aha.
    Last edited by Cyclops; 03-27-2010 at 02:51 PM.

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    Creepy-Cyclops

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huitzilopochtli View Post
    sorry, you are right...when I got into socionics I was already experimenting with social experiments, drugs, hypnosis, and my own subconscious, which was made worse by my initial study of socionics...my first typing, before I could fully manipulate the established mechanisms of information metabolism, is indeed correct, though now I have been whipped back into shape of conformity by my military service and various SEE acquaintances...sorry for troubling you

    anyway, you don't supervise me at all, but I don't get along well with care-takers (-ego) as I am already a careful (-creating) type myself, and I don't appreciate nasty comments or suggestively nasty extroverted intuitions; it is not uncommon for SLI to exaggerate insubstantial reasonings and I think that this has been indicative of our relationship and your relationships with others I have met in the past...as an experiential type you must at least admit that this much is factual
    I was only joking about the supervise part, hence the inverted commas, glad you've found your type, now I hope it also proves useful to you somehow.

    So, I suppose touche on you exaggerating my joke (in the context of your [SP - that is second paragraph, ah the puns] response ).

    All the best mate.

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    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
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    beautiful melodies and harmonies without many embellishments; slow broken chords;
    Oh, I go for this kind of stuff sometimes, like sorta norah jones-y calm almost placid stuff. It's cool as long as it's vaguely emotionally painful too.

    dramatic embellishments; high, wailing sounds; manipulating sound quality to create a wrenching effect; dramatic melodies that are largely independent of chord structure; imitation of sounds (of human voice, laughter, animals, etc.) using instruments;
    Eh... I don't know that I like the idea of melodies independent of chord structure. I do like it when music gets to a big noisy dramatic climax, but it only works if you actually earn it.

    high focus on patterns of notes and structure of melody, harmony, and tonal progressions; meaningful repetition
    Oooh, meaningful repetition is my favorite in music. Over patterning things to the point that they don't sound good is annoying, but otherwise, this is one of my favorite aspects of music.

    well-articulated, strong, unchanging rhythm; melody highly dependent on chord changes; preference for fairly fast tempo (e.g. a fast walk); strongly defined sections
    Eh. Unchanging rhythms are stupid to me. I don't know what a melody highly dependent on chord changes sounds like/means. Strongly defined sections can be either great or lame.

    flowing sound texture; use of nature-imitating sounds; avoidance of fast rhythm; preference for swift melodic resolution and clearly minor or clearly major chords
    Don't relate to this at all. My favorite music by far is music that combines major and minor sonorities, chord changes that I can't "figure out". Actually, not being able to figure out music is usually what attracts me to it the most.
    heavy, percussive beat; strong "power chords" (in rock music); extensive use in classical music of brass, timpani, other percussion to convey a sense of bigness (not necessarily loud)
    lol. All the Se-egos I know like this kind of stuff. I think it's often overdone, but I do like a sense of grandeur in my music, again, as long as it's earned. It's more about energy than loudness or bigness, and you can have a lot of intensity and energy even if you're barely whisper-singing.

    use of echoes and reverberation; gradual emergence of chords; lack of emphasis on percussion
    Hmmm... I relate to the lack of emphasis on percussion, but I don't know what "gradual emergence of chords" means. Echoes and reverb are nice but can easily be overdone. Prince uses echoes/reverb amazingly.

    use of eclectic, "random" melodic structures, styles, and concepts within the same composition; continuous melodic embellishment; introducing new melodies, textures, and variations through the course of a piece
    Hmmm... I do kind of like this though, but more for the reason described above: it's hard to figure out, I want to grasp the meaning behind all the random changes. I'd be pissed if it was just randomness for randomness' sake. I don't even find that funny usually. I find incongruity funny, but I don't really find sheer randomness very funny.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

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    personally I think is more about fills, leads, and transients

    As a boutique tube guitar amp enthusiast, I love pure instrument tone, I think effects just ruin the natural harmonies in the timbre

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    here is a piece I wrote almost 2 years ago: http://api.ning.com/files/OoN9q1jyhU...gicReverie.mid

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    Music that inspires love, hope and positive outlook

    like Celine Dion's The Prayer.

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    Creepy-Pied Piper

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    Removed at User Request

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    "BTW, I LOVE reverb, HATE really dramatic flares or general uppityness (I cannot play in that style because it goes against something inside of me). Se also manifests in force, energy/momentum, and even aggression in playing such as very strong articulation, fortissimo and strong fortes in dynamics and I would say sharp dynamic contrasts (i.e. fortepiano, going from pianissimo to forte within a short time frame), rhythm and syncopation, etc. have a lot to do with that. "

    THis seems contradictary(bolded), Are you talking about the emotion that is expressed such as in song or emulated by instruments as the part you don't like when you say dramatic flare? Distinguish between a dramatic flare and dynamic contrasts they are connected together.

    The ILI I know avoids playing with any...panache, gusto, bravado, it just seems freakin dead to me and needs to be livened up a bit. It is boring... there is no life breathed into the music. I try to tell him to add more sharp dynamic contrasts and micro ones too to put more ooomph and emotion into the music.

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    I like the power guitar chords in songs, like fefe dobson's 'don't let it go to your head.' And yeah I think that's a prime example of Se, a very obvious example. And I love it to death so yeah.

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    flowing sound texture; use of nature-imitating sounds; avoidance of fast rhythm; preference for swift melodic resolution and clearly minor or clearly major chords
    That all sounds quite boring. Clearly minor/major chords are corny as heck.
    "Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."

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    i'll tear down the sky Mattie's Avatar
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    Yeah, I don't think you can really put IEs to types of music. You would have to wonder how popular music is popular, because it can only be so many qualities, but at the same time, appeals to a large majority of people. I don't think this is type related at all, musical preference is the cause

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    Quote Originally Posted by jughead View Post
    "BTW, I LOVE reverb, HATE really dramatic flares or general uppityness (I cannot play in that style because it goes against something inside of me). Se also manifests in force, energy/momentum, and even aggression in playing such as very strong articulation, fortissimo and strong fortes in dynamics and I would say sharp dynamic contrasts (i.e. fortepiano, going from pianissimo to forte within a short time frame), rhythm and syncopation, etc. have a lot to do with that. "

    THis seems contradictary(bolded), Are you talking about the emotion that is expressed such as in song or emulated by instruments as the part you don't like when you say dramatic flare? Distinguish between a dramatic flare and dynamic contrasts they are connected together.

    The ILI I know avoids playing with any...panache, gusto, bravado, it just seems freakin dead to me and needs to be livened up a bit. It is boring... there is no life breathed into the music. I try to tell him to add more sharp dynamic contrasts and micro ones too to put more ooomph and emotion into the music.
    I think the is represented by trying to create understanding and emotional connections using instruments; the music piece I posted above has some of those tendencies you were talking about (I think my love of continuous rhythms, like in acid trance, is a good indication of inspiration); by the way what is your type (I am guessing Beta NF?)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rubicon View Post
    That all sounds quite boring. Clearly minor/major chords are corny as heck.
    it is not so much the chord but the chord progression, i.e. scales, harmonies, etc; I usually think of minor scales as negativist and major scales as positivist

    Quote Originally Posted by look.to.the.sky View Post
    Yeah, I don't think you can really put IEs to types of music. You would have to wonder how popular music is popular, because it can only be so many qualities, but at the same time, appeals to a large majority of people. I don't think this is type related at all, musical preference is the cause
    I think perhaps quadra values might help someone identify with an artist, for instance a rapper (I tend to see East Coast Rap as Reasonable and West Coast Rap as Decisive, though I am sure that is not always the case); instrumental music provides too little information to ignite definitive biases (though I believe that people with different IMs will be attracted to different aspects of the music, especially while they are already engaged in some other form of IM such as talking)

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    There are probably some minor Socionic influences of musical interest, however they would be drowned out by the tidal wave of influence from things like age, gender, ethnic group, and where you're from (for instance people from rural areas in the US are more likely to like country music.)

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    I must say that when I dated this one dual he introduced me to new music and I found that I really loved his taste so it sort of made me wonder if that's how it's supposed to be; are duals really sort of "made" to please us?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    I must say that when I dated this one dual he introduced me to new music and I found that I really loved his taste so it sort of made me wonder if that's how it's supposed to be; are duals really sort of "made" to please us?
    No, you romanticize duality. You can get ideas and inspiration from anyone, and if you're open any number of people of any number of types might have book, movie, and music suggestions that you'd like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mariella View Post
    There are probably some minor Socionic influences of musical interest, however they would be drowned out by the tidal wave of influence from things like age, gender, ethnic group, and where you're from (for instance people from rural areas in the US are more likely to like country music.)
    I agree here. I don't think the type of music you like is all that type related. Maybe what you do with that do that music preference is though.

    For example:

    #1) Are you more inclined to listen to music based on your current mood? Are you one of those people who has a preset playlist based on different moods and situations? OR

    Do you just know that you are in the mood for some music but don't know precisely what you're in the mood for until you hear it?

    OR

    Do you take on the mood of the song you're currently listening to at the time?


    #2) Are you inclined to have a few favorite pieces that you can listen to over and over again and never tire of.

    OR

    Do you find that even you get bored easily after repeated listenings of something, even your favorites.


    #3) Are you inclined to enjoy exploring new styles of music, including those that are very different from what you're accustomed to hearing.

    OR

    Do you find you primarily stick to a certain genre and while you may enjoy exploring different artists within that genre, you don't feel much need to venture out beyond that.


    I'd be interested to see if different types tend to respond differently to these questions.

    As for myself:

    #1 I'm a little bit like of each of these but I don't make playlists. I think I'm most like the second option of the three. I can take on the mood of what's currently playing up to a certain point. If the mood of the music playing is *too* different from my current mood, I'm not that likely to take on the mood of the music. I might find it kind of annoying if I'm in a melancholy mood and the music around me is really upbeat.

    #2 The first option. When I was younger I would play the same song over and over up to the annoyance of my family.

    #3 The first option. Even though there are some songs I can listen to over and over, I also like listening to a wide variety of styles of music and discovering completely new things that I find I like.
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



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    Quote Originally Posted by Huitzilopochtli View Post
    here is a piece I wrote almost 2 years ago: http://api.ning.com/files/OoN9q1jyhU...gicReverie.mid
    I like it actually...very quirky. I don't really get much sense of form or it going anywhere, but I really like the material. The sudden tempo changes and other things that just sort of happen one time without any apparent context give it that nice quirky quality. It would be interesting if you used that Midi file to drive virtual instruments instead of just using general midi, although maybe the midi sound helps gives it that campy/electronic sound.

    Quote Originally Posted by polikujm View Post
    Not sure if this goes along with anything here, but I thought posting it would bring back some memories of it, possibly sparking something new, from here Music - Wikisocion.
    I think that article is a nice start, although there are some problems.

    "Fi beautiful melodies and harmonies without many embellishments; slow broken chords;" I think that gives a good idea of what some Fi music may sound like, although I think some crea-Fe may also sound like this. Probably the intent here was that if you're playing some slow melody and purposely avoiding too much embellishment, it's to create this sense of some sort of emotional depth.

    "Fe dramatic embellishments; high, wailing sounds; manipulating sound quality to create a wrenching effect; dramatic melodies that are largely independent of chord structure; imitation of sounds (of human voice, laughter, animals, etc.) using instruments;" My initial reaction is that this overemphasizes the high-intensity side of Fe (probably from seeing "wailing sounds"). While Ej temperament is more intense as a rule, I think everyone has both intense and quieter moments, even if one is using largely Fe.

    "Ti high focus on patterns of notes and structure of melody, harmony, and tonal progressions; meaningful repetition" Sounds good to me, although meaningful repetition could be Fi depending on whether it's an "ethical" or "logical" form of "meaningful."

    "Te well-articulated, strong, unchanging rhythm; melody highly dependent on chord changes; preference for fairly fast tempo (e.g. a fast walk); strongly defined sections " Not bad...I like the "strongly defined sections" part. It's probably right that Te dominated music is more often at a faster tempo, but as I stated with Fe, Te-dominated composers probably also wrote slow music but are still using the same basic functions as when they write fast music.

    "Si flowing sound texture; use of nature-imitating sounds; avoidance of fast rhythm; preference for swift melodic resolution and clearly minor or clearly major chords " I'm not really sure here. I think Si-dominated music gets into the sound a lot...I'm not sure if it has to be nature-imitating, slow, or triadic.

    "Se heavy, percussive beat; strong "power chords" (in rock music); extensive use in classical music of brass, timpani, other percussion to convey a sense of bigness (not necessarily loud) " I like that it says "not necessarily loud," acknowledging that there is some variability. But overall it's suggesting that it is big, heavy, and loud, but "not necessarily." To me Se music tends to suggest actions...It makes me think of things happening or stuff going on around me as if I'm where the action is. So in that sense it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with being heavy or strong at all.

    "Ni use of echoes and reverberation; gradual emergence of chords; lack of emphasis on percussion " This and other things on the site kind of stereotype Ni music as new age or "space music." To me, that's a genre that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with Ni. In classical music, at least, I think Ni might be expressed by creating imaginary spaces that focus on such concepts as anticipation, long-term significance, foreshadowing, implication of the fundamentals of a narrative storyline, etc. I think sometimes long pedal points as in Mahler (think the last movement of Mahler 2) may help connote Ni, but Ni-dominated music probably uses percussion as much as any other music, and the echoes/reverb thing is definitely more of a genre issue than a type issue.

    "Ne use of eclectic, "random" melodic structures, styles, and concepts within the same composition; continuous melodic embellishment; introducing new melodies, textures, and variations through the course of a piece" That's about right, I think. Only comment would be that in within older, more conservative styles, Ne would tend to be expressed more as "continuous melodic embellishment," whereas in later musical styles it's expressed more in the other ways mentioned. For example, I tend to see Mozart's music as Ne-oriented because of it's melodic fluency and brilliance. Back in those days, it was actually considered eclectic, but it doesn't seem so us. Since I see Mozart as IEE, the Te and Fi values keep it orderly.

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