What to do with this INFp?

[Zed]

Let's say Pinocchio stabs electric sheep. Are we going to forgive him because he is Fi PolR or do we jail him anyway?

I have/had an INFp friend, who I drove away by forcing my role Fi on him. See, I don't fully understand how people are supposed to treat each other in friendships, so I built this system in my head which I'm quite sure was heavily influenced by my Fi. Every time this INFp friend violated my rules, I'd complain. Well, when he did it too often anyway.

Example: loyalty. "Dude, that guy is my ENEMY, and you hang out with him!" *gasp*

The above example is made up, but it serves the purpose.

So, he eventually got fed up. I clicked that Fi-style friendship was what upset him after Pirate mentioned how dealing with Fi for him is like dealing with perpetual debt.

Now... a bit of a dilemma. The guy knew what I expected from our friendship, but he did his own thing anyway. I feel disrespected. At the same time, I don't know if he should be held accountable, since he is an Fe valuer and not an Fi valuer.

He want us to be friends again. Should I forgive him?

[redbaron]

He want us to be friends again. Should I forgive him?

if you can accept him for who he is without forcing your Fi stuff on him, yeah. Otherwise the same thing will probably happen all over again.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Only be friends with him again if you really want to. INFps hate being led on.

If you want to be friends then do it but don't be friends like you feel you 'should' be or whatever.

[Satan]

you could just have this same conservation you want to haev on the forum with him, in person. and then make a decision together if it's pointful or not being friends still.

[crazedrat]

Generally, LIIs are very needy. Too needy for me to deal with on a regular basis. So I end up retreating so that I can recharge. It also annoys me when they hold me to their standards. I make my own standards for myself, and I don't expect other people to follow them. (How on earth could I?) Their standards have a way of obligating others, which can also be annoying. INFps are not caretakers, and LII wants a caretaker.

[redbaron]

Generally, LIIs are very needy. Too needy for me to deal with on a regular basis. So I end up retreating so that I can recharge. It also annoys me when they hold me to their standards. I make my own standards for myself, and I don't expect other people to follow them. (How on earth could I?) Their standards have a way of obligating others, which can also be annoying. INFps are not caretakers, and LII wants a caretaker.

yes, exactly.

[Blaze]

Generally, LIIs are very needy. Too needy for me to deal with on a regular basis. So I end up retreating so that I can recharge. It also annoys me when they hold me to their standards. I make my own standards for myself, and I don't expect other people to follow them. (How on earth could I?) Their standards have a way of obligating others, which can also be annoying. INFps are not caretakers, and LII wants a caretaker.

not sure i agree with this. LII's are among the most independent types around. they barely need anything except a cheerful atmosphere.

[redbaron]

not sure i agree with this. LII's are among the most independent types around. they barely need anything except a cheerful atmosphere.

Depends on their level of health maybe. Cause I know some that are pretty needy at a closer distance. And then if you don't provide what they need, they'll push you away and sulk.

[IEI]

Example: loyalty. "Dude, that guy is my ENEMY, and you hang out with him!" *gasp*

I was friends with a boss at work for over 10 years and had a *lot* of respect for her and I was fiercely loyal to her. I became friends with someone else who she hates and over the last 2 years my friendship with the boss has deteriorated (so badly she has recently tried to bully me and ridiculed me in public). I feel so let down by her and can't understand why she can't accept I choose my own friends, I have my own mind and I am my own person. Being friends with this other person didn't mean I was less loyal to her!?! I don't understand what the problem is

[Blaze]

Depends on their level of health maybe. Cause I know some that are pretty needy at a closer distance. And then if you don't provide what they need, they'll push you away and sulk.

dunno for sure....i'm thinking of my brother who is as clear an LII as i can think of. he would want to be left alone, a more extreme introvert i've never met. he's opened right up with his esfj dual fiance though. she's very cheerful and smooth. the biggest thing i've noticed with my brother and my other LII friends is that they lose touch with you. they forget to call, and are generally spacey about staying in touch. my brother, more than my LII friends, who tend to be female, is pretty critical. like all IJ's, they hold grudges like for decades.

i guess the reason i don't see how they obligate you is because they are so spacey about staying in touch. and because they want to be left alone. between these two things, it doesn't feel like they obligate you.

they do have a certain rigidity though. they are rational after all. relationally, i think they're more comfortable following the average everyday "rules" of behavior. to my mind, this feels more judgmental than obligating, since i don't like following a rule book it soooo feels like a have to.

[redbaron]

yeah that makes sense Blaze.

[The Exception]

Generally, LIIs are very needy. Too needy for me to deal with on a regular basis. So I end up retreating so that I can recharge. It also annoys me when they hold me to their standards. I make my own standards for myself, and I don't expect other people to follow them. (How on earth could I?) Their standards have a way of obligating others, which can also be annoying. INFps are not caretakers, and LII wants a caretaker.

not sure i agree with this. LII's are among the most independent types around. they barely need anything except a cheerful atmosphere.

I think LII's want someone who will take care of sensory comfort needs sinces they have trouble providing that themselves. So they're needy in that sense. Otherwise, like what Blaze said, they're very independent.

Isn't every type needy when it comes to functions 5 and 6?

[crazedrat]

you probably don't notice it because you're also an infantile type.

[silverchris9]

you probably don't notice it because you're also an infantile type.

Right. That's what I was going to say. Infantiles don't seem needy to other infantiles, they just seem... normal. Somewhat the same with victim-victim.

[Blaze]

Isn't every type needy when it comes to functions 5 and 6?

yes.

what angers me a little bit about slams on alphas about their "neediness" is that other quadras seem to think that they are not needy. they are quite needy; their needs are just in a different area.

when somebody says that someone else is "needy" i think what they really mean is that "i have no idea how to meet their needs." i like the second way of saying better since it's a judgment about self rather than a judgment about somebody else and thus reflects more personal responsibility.

i'd rather try to learn about and understand the types from other quadras. i'd rather learn how to apply socionics. i'd rather try to stretch myself a bit and see the world through a different kaleidescope, since in the universal sense, everybody is right and it is the perspective of the entire socion that best represents humanity's perception of reality.

[crazedrat]

Alpha quadra is needy. No reason to turn it into semantics. Here are some examples:
Alpha will badger you over the pettiest things while you're trying to enjoy yourself alone.
Alphas are terrible at keeping personal discomfort to themselves. They will whine for a mother hen to tend to them.
If a group activity is happening, alpha will be over-analyzing what should be done.
The 2 stalkers I have known were both LIIs. To alphas, stalking is romantic.
Alphas will praise you in a way where you have to return the sentiments.
Alphas keep an eye on whether you're living up their social standards, and attempt to hold you to these standards.
Alphas will chime in when you're speaking and force you to explain yourself in great detail. Vague language doesn't work with them. If your point is complicated, you will have to talk forever to get it across.


Also, on a slightly unrelated note, here is an alpha male:

[Blaze]

and what have you to say about beta needs?

[betterthan]

when somebody says that someone else is "needy" i think what they really mean is that "i have no idea how to meet their needs."

That's cool. I totally agree. Every type is 'needy'.

[betterthan]

Alpha quadra is needy. No reason to turn it into semantics. Here are some examples:
Alpha will badger you over the pettiest things while you're trying to enjoy yourself alone.
Alphas are terrible at keeping personal discomfort to themselves. They will whine for a mother hen to tend to them.
If a group activity is happening, alpha will be over-analyzing what should be done.
The 2 stalkers I have known were both LIIs. To alphas, stalking is romantic.
Alphas will praise you in a way where you have to return the sentiments.
Alphas keep an eye on whether you're living up their social standards, and attempt to hold you to these standards.
Alphas will chime in when you're speaking and force you to explain yourself in great detail. Vague language doesn't work with them. If your point is complicated, you will have to talk forever to get it across.


Also, on a slightly unrelated note, here is an alpha male: YouTube- Crank Yankers - Cammie Calls Tech Support

Haha. God. Get some fucking perspective. Just because that's your experience of alphas, doesn't mean it's true of all alphas everywhere. It's like when you used to hate on IEIs .

Of course you think that shit makes them needy - you aren't alpha!

[crazedrat]

no, they're definitely needy.

[thePirate]

yes.

what angers me a little bit about slams on alphas about their "neediness" is that other quadras seem to think that they are not needy. they are quite needy; their needs are just in a different area.

when somebody says that someone else is "needy" i think what they really mean is that "i have no idea how to meet their needs." i like the second way of saying better since it's a judgment about self rather than a judgment about somebody else and thus reflects more personal responsibility.

i'd rather try to learn about and understand the types from other quadras. i'd rather learn how to apply socionics. i'd rather try to stretch myself a bit and see the world through a different kaleidescope, since in the universal sense, everybody is right and it is the perspective of the entire socion that best represents humanity's perception of reality.

I dont really see alpha getting slammed any more so than other quadras when it comes to criticisms like this

[shorebreaker]

Only be friends with him again if you really want to. INFps hate being led on.

If you want to be friends then do it but don't be friends like you feel you 'should' be or whatever.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Yeah I mean I don't think anybody should do anything cause they feel they 'should' or 'have to' because what's the point? If your heart isn't really in it then it's just going to be really fake and awkward, and really sometimes it's better to just wait until you feel comfortable and like natural/organic, and then approach and do what you want.

so I mean do what you want with the INFp as long as you're not like gonna hurt him (not intentionally but if you do so indirectly he will get over it). Like whatever you really want to do is the correct answer, as it's the most organic.

[Creepy-male]

The individual is quite adept at understanding the interactions in personal bonds between two individuals, even in the absence of an obvious external emotional expression; but he is inclined to regard them as of lesser importance, and less interesting, than the broader emotional interactions in the context of a larger group. Moreover, those personal bonds are perceived as situational and dynamic rather than static.

The individual recognizes the existence and importance of personal relationships, so he is usually cautious at first about offending others if he does not know them well. To minimize this risk he adheres somewhat simplistically to the relevant social conventions (e.g. political correctness). However, if taken too far this produces stress, as it inhibits his natural introverted logic () inclination to voice exactly what his thoughts are on a given issue or situation, with the expectation that others will appreciate his straightforwardness, rather than accusing him of being insensitive. This caution gradually disappears as he gets to know people better.

He prefers to develop relationships indirectly with others based on open conversation and common activities, and only reveals his innermost personal feelings to those he has known for a long time. He may become confused and suspicious if they are directly solicited by others.

From wikisocion....

Just for reference; I have a good friend in rl that is actually IEI, and things generally work out. I think the thing that stands out is IEI's see emotional interaction as something dynamic and flowing and that especially ties in with the producing Ni. Its an entire story unfolding in front of them, its very dynamic.

I think LIIs because of the Ti base alot of their interactions with people in a static justice based way. The Fi role leads them to open interactions with people politically correct and it gives them this sense of natural rights and civility.

This conflicts slightly with the IEI because they see things more freely, flowing, dynamic, and less rooted in some concept of justice.

As long as the LII doesn't forcefully jam there concept of justice (inspired by Fi role) using Ti down the IEI, it won't create a great deal of conflict. IEIs could honestly care less what kind of system of justice you have going on in your mental world. Its the nature of the emotional interactions they've had with you and where that can lead that interests them. LIIs can get along well if they learn to be more comfortable and less guarded around IEIs, the IEIs can appreciate their intellects in a sort of indirect way, and the LII can appreciate the Fe working through Ni which can trigger their Ne and Ti. The problem with applying too much weight to your view on ethics is that it won't be comphrensible to the other side, its not so much that the other person thinks your wrong, so relationships between LII and IEI's work best when there is a more relaxed vibe to them rather than a rapid need to assert some kind of ethical dominance in the situation. Heavy deliberation into the realm of ethics will leads to confusion and misinterpretation and ultimately conflict between the LII and IEI, when naturally both are usually not hateful towards each other.

In other words, tread lightly when entering the realm of ethics with an IEI, take your time, and things will work out, IEIs aren't naturally conflicting to the LII. Try to understand where the IEI is coming from and things will work out, instead of over-reacting, ask questions, IEIs love to express themselves, they are one type that will actually be inclined to express themselves over neurotically defending their points of view.