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Thread: What don't you like about your duals?

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    i'll tear down the sky Mattie's Avatar
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    Default What don't you like about your duals?

    What is it that makes relationships (of any kind) with your dual difficult? Socionics and the general mind of the forum gives a mostly utopia type of description when it comes to duality, but we know in reality, it doesn't work that way. Maybe we can help each other out in the process

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    Not all of them have these "problems", but some do:

    - Excessive focus on their appearance
    - Extreme dislike towards any type of intellectual matter
    - Really scathing/harsh (this can be funny, when it's not brought to excessive levels)
    - Take impulsive nonsensical decisions they start regretting the day after
    - Too competitive (this can be a dealbreaker in friendships with ESI males)

    (edit: sorry, I didn't notice this was inside the Delta quadra!!)
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    i'll tear down the sky Mattie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    (edit: sorry, I didn't notice this was inside the Delta quadra!!)
    No worries I, at least, don't mind other quadras popping in and commenting, I think those who know they will get into conflict in Delta easily stay away already.

    I'm going to post mine later, but I thought I'd put this up to see if it'd spark good conversation.

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    Creepy-male

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    - Excessive focus on their appearance
    Fi base thing? EII-mum is like this, even if it's more "how do other people see me?" sort of image, as opposed to the visual/aesthetic "appearance". Major source of constant "No idea why you're like that" both ways.

    Anyway, to contribute to the thread, a lot of ILEs seem overly argumentative, especially once they're put on the defensive. I guess it's my job to convince them to outchill, and I don't mind; it's just that it's a little strange that they don't seem to understand how it's going to turn out

    (LIIs can be like this too, only they tend to not listen to me. You know who you are )

    Anyway, I haven't interacted with any ILEs directly on anything more than a superficial level, and it's always enjoyable... aside from this one incident where my ILE friend was playing WoW drunk and lashed out at me because we fumbled an obscenely complex strategy to take down a 5-man boss with just the two of us, inspiring several weeks of ILE hatred.

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    Darn Socks Director Abbie's Avatar
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    Too easy. It's a given that EIIs like me and that we get along. There's not much room for improvement when it's good from the beginning. Kinda boring. They're also unecessarily gentle. It can be sweet, but also tiring. Finally, EIIs aren't very funny.
    Last edited by Director Abbie; 03-26-2010 at 02:31 AM.

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    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
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    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    Too easy. It's a given that EIIs like me and that we get along. There's not much room for improvement when it's good from the beginning. Kinda boring.
    LOL....not really no.

    My duals can have their head in another place and totally ignor me when I need them...you however, are not my dual and what would you know anyway?

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    For a variety of SLIs I've known over the years:

    Some can be vain or obsessed w/ their appearance (though the flip side is they usually look pretty good
    Can seem cold and not empathetic
    Might say very offensive things as they are more focused on themselves
    Can be passive aggressive and not open about what they really want
    Are not always as transparent w/ their plans as I'd like, so things can seem like big surprises that shouldn't be
    Can think they are always right, and that can prevent them from improving
    Sometimes are downers when new exciting plans are mentioned and they want to be lazy
    Can be clueless of social norms and not realize when people/certain friends have crossed a line
    Hi! I'm an ENFP. :-)

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    Creepy-male

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    Quote Originally Posted by VixenDogFox View Post
    --Only minimally physically warm or affectionate (except when in a very good mood or "in bed")
    I can think of two LIIs I know IRL who aren't this at all, and I can think of one I know online who frequently emotes *hugs*, and I personally don't want to believe this would not translate to offline

    Quoth Isha on onLIIne girl, "I bet she gives good hugs too."

    Might be a gender thing. I think females in general are just a lot more touchy-feely.

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    i'll tear down the sky Mattie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian View Post
    I can think of two LIIs I know IRL who aren't this at all, and I can think of one I know online who frequently emotes *hugs*, and I personally don't want to believe this would not translate to offline

    Quoth Isha on onLIIne girl, "I bet she gives good hugs too."

    Might be a gender thing. I think females in general are just a lot more touchy-feely.
    A quick note before I rush off for a little, note that there are different perceptions of affection, and different people have different thresholds for a certain type of affection (or any other sort of information, to apply it globally) before they feel fulfilled. This is both type and person-to-person related.

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    Lobo should have started that "vent thread" he was considering the other day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by look.to.the.sky View Post
    What is it that makes relationships (of any kind) with your dual difficult? Socionics and the general mind of the forum gives a mostly utopia type of description when it comes to duality, but we know in reality, it doesn't work that way. Maybe we can help each other out in the process
    Maybe not that great a response, but it depends on the person.

    Although - i'm not sure how we can help each other out, unless prospective duals who don't know socionics still happen to come across this knowledge and put it to use.

    Hmmmm.. i'll try and be specific later perhaps, to help the thread and your question, but I still think it varies from person to person, people being individuals not only info metabolism ya de ya *yawn*

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    there are none of them around right now that are both single and appealing enough for me to want to pursue - that's what I don't like about my duals.

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    there are none of them around right now that are both single and appealing enough for me to want to pursue - that's what I don't like about my duals.
    That's because they are only less then 1% of the total human population and devided that by men and women and then by ages, so you're looking at a very skinny margin of choices...but they all kinda look alike.

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    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by look.to.the.sky View Post
    What is it that makes relationships (of any kind) with your dual difficult? Socionics and the general mind of the forum gives a mostly utopia type of description when it comes to duality, but we know in reality, it doesn't work that way. Maybe we can help each other out in the process
    My problems with my duals seem mostly of the individual variety, as in one problem doesn't necessarily extend to each of the others I know. I think perhaps certain kinds of communication are more difficult, perhaps related to the difference in club. Like how certain concepts pass more easily from me to another NF (or vis a vis) than they would to a Delta ST (or STs in general, I guess).

    One thing that does occasionally bother me is a certain callousness they tend to have, an uncaring attitude toward the feelings of others. Or when they shut doors while I still see hope and possibility.

    And, as Abbie pointed out, sometimes things get boring.

    Hm, I might have to think about this more to give a more thorough answer.
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    on top of that, I just don't pursue any female EII that is single, I know there are other factors involved, for me, at least.

    One thing that bothers me is sometimes EIIs tend to just disappear for a few days because of some emotional problem, and there is absolutely nothing I can do about it other than wait. The more healthy EIIs are better at communicating to me what's going on, but, unhealthy ones (particularly of the E9 variety) do that and it is very unpleasant. Nothing stresses me out more than someone that I care about suffering and not letting me know what's going on - all I know is that things are bad and I can't do anything about it. I think it's really unfair and selfish.

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    [QUOTE=look.to.the.sky;627430]QUOTE]

    Welcome back Sky.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VixenDogFox View Post
    It's not that the LII's I know don't give (good) hugs or aren't ever warm (my LII will give me a kiss or hug out of the blue and it's very sweet), it's just the frequency of physical affection is more minimal. I mean, my LII THINKS of himself as very physically expressive but the fact is, when compared to other types who ARE very touchy feely, LII's are just not. I think you have to live with one all day every day to really know what I mean... And yeah, I'm talking about boys here, too.
    I would really like you to consider my final typing, before I joked around with you; you ISTp and your dual ENFp; this dual pair interaction holds some key information and someone here could really use your help in trying to understand the dynamics of this dual pair right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VixenDogFox View Post
    This is the most ridiculous typing ever. We are both incredibly Alpha. I am not the same type as my mom and brother, and I am definitely their supervisor (it is so obvious in real life and something I have to constantly try to work on so I don't act obnoxious or hurtful towards them).

    Another thing, my LII boyfriend is not ENFp. I mean, I've known a fair share of ENFp's and he is NOT NOT NOT. *sigh*

    And I would like to ask where you get your typing authority. I mean that in all seriousness. I am really curious why you believe your opinions weigh more than others', why your knowledge is more advanced than others, and on what basis your physical (VI) typing method is accurate. Where are the studies, who is backing it that we might have heard of?

    You just being insistent you are right all the time is NOT ENOUGH.

    If you can't give me a reason, honestly, I'll believe you are delusional.
    Well, I am good at VI, I can't say anything more then that...I guess I have had very good teachers and had an open mind for learning...all of my teachers and I confirmed your types as such, so you can do whatever you want with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    Well, I am good at VI, I can't say anything more then that...I guess I have had very good teachers and had an open mind for learning...all of my teachers and I confirmed your types as such, so you can do whatever you want with it.
    Whaa?

    All of your teachers?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    Whaa?

    All of your teachers?
    Yes, I had to double check for NF typing.

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    Creepy-Cyclops

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    IEE/SLI isn't the worst typing from VI imo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VixenDogFox View Post
    This is the most ridiculous typing ever. We are both incredibly Alpha. I am not the same type as my mom and brother, and I am definitely their supervisor (it is so obvious in real life and something I have to constantly try to work on so I don't act obnoxious or hurtful towards them).

    Another thing, my LII boyfriend is not ENFp. I mean, I've known a fair share of ENFp's and he is NOT NOT NOT. *sigh*

    And I would like to ask where you get your typing authority. I mean that in all seriousness. I am really curious why you believe your opinions weigh more than others', why your knowledge is more advanced than others, and on what basis your physical (VI) typing method is accurate. Where are the studies, who is backing it that we might have heard of?

    You just being insistent you are right all the time is NOT ENOUGH.

    If you can't give me a reason, honestly, I'll believe you are delusional.
    Your mom and dad may not have had a shot at having N kids; because they were both S types, genetically impossible.

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    I don't think it's so much an unlikeable trait but something I worry about, which is this overwhelming need to be in motion that they have, which makes me nervous that they're going to just explode and either hurt themselves or someone else.
    It's like a White Rabbit complex "gotta do this, omg look at the time ahhhh!"
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    Quote Originally Posted by VixenDogFox View Post
    What?
    I know I know, that's what the emocon is for
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    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    One thing that bothers me is sometimes EIIs tend to just disappear for a few days because of some emotional problem, and there is absolutely nothing I can do about it other than wait. The more healthy EIIs are better at communicating to me what's going on, but, unhealthy ones (particularly of the E9 variety) do that and it is very unpleasant. Nothing stresses me out more than someone that I care about suffering and not letting me know what's going on - all I know is that things are bad and I can't do anything about it. I think it's really unfair and selfish.
    What about the selfishness of asking an INFj in that state to interrupt what they probably feel is much-needed retreating/coping/healing time?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marie84 View Post
    I don't think it's so much an unlikeable trait but something I worry about, which is this overwhelming need to be in motion that they have, which makes me nervous that they're going to just explode and either hurt themselves or someone else.
    It's like a White Rabbit complex "gotta do this, omg look at the time ahhhh!"
    We've already discussed there are also lazy ESTj's.

    That sort of activity sounds more ENFj. ESTj's often have a leisurely act about them, esp outside of work.

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    Some ISTps I've known have been really standoffish and impersonal at first, but eventually I kinda warm up to them after repeated exposure.
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    on top of that, I just don't pursue any female EII that is single, I know there are other factors involved, for me, at least.

    One thing that bothers me is sometimes EIIs tend to just disappear for a few days because of some emotional problem, and there is absolutely nothing I can do about it other than wait. The more healthy EIIs are better at communicating to me what's going on, but, unhealthy ones (particularly of the E9 variety) do that and it is very unpleasant. Nothing stresses me out more than someone that I care about suffering and not letting me know what's going on - all I know is that things are bad and I can't do anything about it. I think it's really unfair and selfish.
    I would say show up with soup, or any food, we love being nurished under distress with very few conversations, but we will eat the food you ask us to. Then, we will feel your warm energy around us and that will just kick us right out of whatever distress we are in. Our distresses are often caused by over analysis of things in the world that don't make sense as far as why people do the things they do and questions with regards to life (should we be alive or exist or not?); but food is the essence of good care and concern and we are for people who will get us up and eating.

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    I don't like it that my duals can be short tempered and impatient, which I really don't mind anyway...with the amassed list of things I do love about them, I overlook all the small nonsense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    What about the selfishness of asking an INFj in that state to interrupt what they probably feel is much-needed retreating/coping/healing time?
    Well that's just it, how much of it is much needed and how much of it is avoidance or simply not wanting to deal with things? I don't know. I think some EIIs have lingered in that state past the point of "much needed".

    Sure, it's selfish to want to interrupt things. But that's not what I was talking about. I wouldn't want someone demanding all my attention or telling me I'm working too hard on some project or "Te" matter. The example from an LSE end might be - he disappears at work and goes into various meetings and puts in bunches of overtime without letting his EII wife knowing why he's not home for dinner, etc.

    I'm mostly referring to other people, by the way - you seem to deal with this better than most.



    It's really strange for people to just disappear and expect others to just accept or guess that "oh the EII is just needing her space" - what if something bad happened? etc. It's like not going to classes for a week and expecting your teachers 'to just know' that you're sick, etc.

    Why it seems so selfish is because it's like simply withdrawing from everything and expecting or forcing other people to deal with things. Like "I'm going to take a break from dealing with reality for a while while I tend to my emotional state - you're going to make sure everything is still functional, right?". It's more, I'm amazed by the entitlement to having personal time just to deal with one's own feelings - and that's partially because, yes, I don't operate that way, at all.

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    Well that's just it, how much of it is much needed and how much of it is avoidance or simply not wanting to deal with things? I don't know. I think some EIIs have lingered in that state past the point of "much needed".

    Sure, it's selfish to want to interrupt things. But that's not what I was talking about. I wouldn't want someone demanding all my attention or telling me I'm working too hard on some project or "Te" matter. The example from an LSE end might be - he disappears at work and goes into various meetings and puts in bunches of overtime without letting his EII wife knowing why he's not home for dinner, etc.

    I'm mostly referring to other people, by the way - you seem to deal with this better than most.



    It's really strange for people to just disappear and expect others to just accept or guess that "oh the EII is just needing her space" - what if something bad happened? etc. It's like not going to classes for a week and expecting your teachers 'to just know' that you're sick, etc.

    Why it seems so selfish is because it's like simply withdrawing from everything and expecting or forcing other people to deal with things. Like "I'm going to take a break from dealing with reality for a while I tend to my emotional state - you're going to make sure everything is still functional, right?". It's more, I'm amazed by the entitlement to having personal time just to deal with one's own feelings - and that's partially because, yes, I don't operate that way, at all.
    Would you prefer it if EII called you more often to discuss what is happening to them?
    Withdrawing is part of depression, we don't want to burden anyone else with cries or "whoa is me"; we don't like to whine.

    I will be honest and let you know why we get into such depressions. We don't feel that it's normal to talk about simple things we feel, that makes us weird; we are not used to verbally expressing our thought, from early childhood. The last time I was in a "removed and distant" feeling was when I had bronchitis. I just wanted to be home in a comfortable bed and do nothing except have tea and relax, but I was not picking up the phone or anything; I didn't want to burden my mom with, "I'm sick" and I don't want to hear things like, you should do this or that...I know how I feel and I feel bad. What I want is for someone to give me tea and make jokes so I can laugh.

    Another time that I was down and out was when I was overanalyzing something with regards to some little things someone said, which I can't even remember now; it impacted my ideals of how things should be so deeply that I didn't want to talk to anyone. I guess, what I am trying to say is that the whole point of duality for us is so that first and foremost, our duals have to make sure that our duties are limited to productive things...don't give us time to hear about people's problems otherwise, we will wallow in them in our own depression, incorporating people's lives into our own and limiting our interaction with other people.

    We respond to demands...you're good at that...do this by 9, 10, etc..we are very responsible and will do the things that are required to be done.

    Irresponsible and inconsiderate behaviors, words or actions of other people affect me emotionally, causes me to lock down and just beat myself up mentally;

    Now, my current last three depressions have been about not finding the right person for me. So I am letting you know, and now you can offer me advise on what to do.

    We easily allow other aspects of our lives to dictate our mood; when I don't feel well, it's easy for me to see that everything's going to be bad, reaction to things spread like a virus.

    I want companionship when I am depressed, I want to have sex, in bed, when I am depressed.

    I don't want ciritcism of my work or effort when I am down N out; I want affection, tea, jokes and that will usually get me out of the state really fast.

    And keep conversations light. Don't ask questions...that aggrivates me.
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 03-23-2010 at 11:45 PM.

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    i'll tear down the sky Mattie's Avatar
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    First off, let's stay on topic. There are certain individuals around here who keep sparking up typing battles, and that's not what this thread is for! If you think someone is mistaken with their self-typing, PM them or bring it up in the "What's My Type?" forum or something, it's annoying for every productive conversation to erupt in self-typing. Good?

    I feel like we're already touching on something here While there is a lot of individual person-to-person problems within relationships, there are also ties that go with you once you experience a type. For example, if you have any sort of relationship with a lazy person, just to be over-generalizing, every other relationship you have with a similarly lazy person will most likely be affected by your previous understanding of past lazy people.

    There is the process that SiTe go through that I notice a result in "I realize/act when it's too late" occurs more often than my interactions with other types, especially when this pertains to relationships. It is this apprehension, or caution, that they hold onto and won't clue you in on and you're wonder WTF is going on that makes achieving a certain level of whatever so difficult with this SiTe (I echo a lot of the details jewels mentioned). It makes me even more frustrated when the whole time, they were mulling over a detail they weren't sure about that turns out to be a complete non-issue or a result of their self-perceived inadequacy with relationships.

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by look.to.the.sky View Post
    There is the process that SiTe go through that I notice a result in "I realize/act when it's too late" occurs more often than my interactions with other types, especially when this pertains to relationships. It is this apprehension, or caution, that they hold onto and won't clue you in on and you're wonder WTF is going on that makes achieving a certain level of whatever so difficult with this SiTe (I echo a lot of the details jewels mentioned). It makes me even more frustrated when the whole time, they were mulling over a detail they weren't sure about that turns out to be a complete non-issue or a result of their self-perceived inadequacy with relationships.
    That's true, that's why you kinda have to make sure you keep them from getting there in the first place. You have to ask ISTp what works for them in a situation, where in the past they have consciously noticed what someone said or did that got them going; they can reflect back and remember this from interaction with people, parents, etc.

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    Executor MatthewZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VixenDogFox View Post
    My beloved duals...

    --Sometimes slow to tidy up or do needed chores
    --Shies away from conflict unless absolutely necessary
    --Extremely uncomfortable discussing certain things
    --Only minimally physically warm or affectionate (except when in a very good mood or "in bed")


    1. It all depends on the definition of "needed." I feel things are usually nicer when there isn't a constant effort to maintain appearances and things mostly fall as they may.
    2. I'm generally forgiving of offenses largely because trying to reach perfection is a waste of resources, but I've been told I charge head-on at conflict and try to settle it at first opportunity. I'll admit, my Strategy-game style usually revolves around defense and quick maneuvering rather than all-out conflict, but it's all for the sake of using the Law of Large Numbers to my advantage and winning my attrition. The same general strategy can apply to interpersonal relationships.
    3. Who isn't?
    4. I say hi, I wave, I start conversation, and hug more than the average person. WHAT MORE DO YOU ESFJS WANT?

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    they were mulling over a detail they weren't sure about that turns out to be a complete non-issue or a result of their self-perceived inadequacy with relationships.
    Yes. I have seen that happen.

    Jewels list is good, but in general SLIs don't bother me that much. The fact that I would still like to whack my ex is really a separate issue. The things that get me most often:

    - feeling left out of their life, such as when you find out that your bf was in ANOTHER COUNTRY last weekend and he failed to tell you he was going. (but everyone else knew)
    - being nitpicky about Te, especially around Te polrs (when the big picture is what matters for the discussion at hand)
    - when they ask you loaded questions, and then extrapolate it to mean FAR more than it should.

    But like I said, we usually do get along great. I've really had some of the best times ever with my SLI friends. I'd much rather have chemistry over inertia.

    They have to put up with my indecisiveness and general messiness (especially that I hate doing dishes).
    IEE

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    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    Your mom and dad may not have had a shot at having N kids; because they were both S types, genetically impossible.
    This doesn't even make sense within the context of your own speculations. Given the fact that you overwhelmingly type people as S, assuming that type is fully genetic and assuming that type is not a polygenic, even then, S would almost certainly be on a dominant allele, and as such intuitive types could have sensory parents. Just sayin'
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    there are none of them around right now that are both single and appealing enough for me to want to pursue - that's what I don't like about my duals.
    same :frown::frown:

    Well there was the one, but then again he's not single anymore and he's not near me. :frown::frown:
    Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx

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    Quote Originally Posted by VixenDogFox View Post
    Also she has already typed one of my brothers as Ne-ENTp... So uh, yeah.
    Me? I only typed one of your brothers.

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    I am very sure I did not say that; he doesn't look like ENTp; he may be INTp; I may have said INTp

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    What I didnt like about the dual I personally experienced (SLI):

    --I was never sure how to read him, lots of hot/cold going on, tons of nonverbal communication that never got verbalized. But this whole thing was what fueled the fire of my attraction to him so maybe that's what I DO like I guess i'm guilty of all of those too though.

    --He tends to hang out with people who seem pretty superficial and boring imo, some trashy even.

    --he drinks a LOT of alcohol (by my standards anyway), and lived a pretty lascivious lifestyle from what I could tell. . .before he got this gf anyway, dont know how he is now. Maybe he is maturing.

    --yes, like Jewels said, very into his looks, but not like in a pretty-boy way. Always had to retain that manliness!!


    What I dont like about SLIs in general (not the above guy):

    --So i've had multiple sightings now of possible SLIs (based on gaze, the way they carry themselves, the general "look", the way they sort of respond to me at a distance in a few cases), at the gym, at the grocery store, a cook at a restaurant, however I'm at a loss as to what to do next. And I'll probably never see them again. I guess this is a long way of saying "unapproachable and distant".

    oh, that's it i guess. . .
    Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx

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