Elements and Personality

[Creepy-male]

Earth
Wind
Water
Fire
Cosmos

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example -->

delta: earth
gamma: wind
alpha: water
beta: fire

or something.... I don't know just play around with it... use clubs, whatever.... I just like the element based analogies.

[1981slater]

Wind = intangible, ideas, imagination = alpha
Beta = fire
Gamma = water
Delta = earth

[xerx]

epsilon = aether

[Gilly]

Wind - Alpha - lightness, intellect, sustained mutability
Fire - Beta - Destruction and rebirth, drastic change, exposure
Water - Gamma - Minimalism, practicality, understated expression
Earth - Delta - Stability, predictability, constancy

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

By your powers combined, I am captain....

MIDDLE-CLASS NEUROTIC!

middle-class neurotic, he's our hero, gonna take your physical presence down to zero. Gonna rant bout shit you don't care about, gonna categorize the the world in a way that it can't be.... la la la la.

[Brilliand]

Wind - Alpha - lightness, intellect, sustained mutability
Fire - Beta - Destruction and rebirth, drastic change, exposure
Water - Gamma - Minimalism, practicality, understated expression
Earth - Delta - Stability, predictability, constancy

Whoa... someone who didn't give the opposing quadras opposing elements.

[tcaudilllg]

By your powers combined, I am captain....

MIDDLE-CLASS NEUROTIC!

middle-class neurotic, he's our hero, gonna take your physical presence down to zero. Gonna rant bout shit you don't care about, gonna categorize the the world in a way that it can't be.... la la la la.

lol

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Brilliand]

But it seems to me that they are the opposite by quadras... it's like:
- earth = winter = Delta
- water = spring = Gamma
- fire = summer = Beta
- autumn = fall = Alpha
(you may swap spring with fall)

I would tend to use:
- water = winter = Delta
- wind = spring = Gamma
- fire = summer = Beta
- earth = fall = Alpha

Specifically, I associate cold with water moreso than with any of the other three elements (you may have been thinking "barren" for the winter, but winter is indeed the opposite of summer: hot vs. cold rather than barren vs. alive, as spring is associated with life).

[Mattie]

I still don't understand the perception of death, stability, and conservatism with Delta. It's one thing that will continually be beyond me when it comes to these sort of ancient personality comparisons.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[The Exception]

I would tend to use:
- water = winter = Delta
- wind = spring = Gamma
- fire = summer = Beta
- earth = fall = Alpha

Specifically, I associate cold with water moreso than with any of the other three elements (you may have been thinking "barren" for the winter, but winter is indeed the opposite of summer: hot vs. cold rather than barren vs. alive, as spring is associated with life).

I'd switch the alpha and gamma.

[Logos]

But what about the other elements like Boron, Carbon, Iron, Thallium, Zirconium, etc.?

[Brilliand]

Wow, weird way of putting things, where are the principles, why winter = water?

Perhaps from games, in which the equivalent of a water-based attack spell is generally ice. This is perhaps related to the idea that water and cold are both opposites of fire, hence they go together.

I'd switch the alpha and gamma.

So would I...

Didn't quite read what I was posting.

But what about the other elements like Boron, Carbon, Iron, Thallium, Zirconium, etc.?

Perhaps when we have a Theta Quadra.

[FDG]

I really dislike Fall, why are we always assigned to that sucky season.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[1981slater]

Possibly because that's the suicide season for the Fe-valuers?

Why? Please explain

[Currere]

But what about the other elements like Boron, Carbon, Iron, Thallium, Zirconium, etc.?

Heh, using those elements, I guess we couldn't use Fire, Water, Earth, *or* Air!

[Creepy-male]

Heh, using those elements, I guess we couldn't use Fire, Water, Earth, *or* Air!

you could but now alpha quadrant is 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen, 0.9% Argon, and 0.1% other gaseous elements including a significant portion of carbon dioxide.

[Creepy-male]

I still don't understand the perception of death, stability, and conservatism with Delta. It's one thing that will continually be beyond me when it comes to these sort of ancient personality comparisons.

Thats very earth..... stability and conservatism is very earth based.... think stability as in rocks and stone and low center of gravity being closer to earth.... rooted to the ground and stable; then you have death as a more earthy viewpoint, like errosion and slow long term evolution, growth etc. Volcanos are earthy, they are violent and sudden but they take a long time to form, and even their explosions reshape the landscape.... everything with earth is stable and any instability or changes takes place on a huge time scale and over that time scale thing change drastically but you never perceive it cause its very slow. Also any change seems less like chaos and more like a very slow but determined process.

Deltas are stable and likely any changes are slow, calm, stable, and in a very determined and steady process, that yields huge results but over a huge time scale.

[Mattie]

Thats very earth..... stability and conservatism is very earth based.... think stability as in rocks and stone and low center of gravity being closer to earth.... rooted to the ground and stable; then you have death as a more earthy viewpoint, like errosion and slow long term evolution, growth etc. Volcanos are earthy, they are violent and sudden but they take a long time to form, and even their explosions reshape the landscape.... everything with earth is stable and any instability or changes takes place on a huge time scale and over that time scale thing change drastically but you never perceive it cause its very slow. Also any change seems less like chaos and more like a very slow but determined process.

Deltas are stable and likely any changes are slow, calm, stable, and in a very determined and steady process, that yields huge results but over a huge time scale.

I understand the association with the elements, but being Delta, I don't think earth or winter applies to me or my quadra, in all honestly, I dislike all these categorical things. How is Delta winter and Gamma spring? This might be all just from my perspective, but Gamma feels more winter and earthy to me. Meaning, can't you fit every quadra into every possibility because the qualities are so broad and abstract? I don't mean to be a thread ruiner though

[Mattie]

IMO, all these associations are utterly nonsensical and are complete and utter bull shit.

Okay, at least I'm not alone

[mu4]

IMO, all these associations are utterly nonsensical and are complete and utter bull shit.

Actually it's not, it's the foundation of the theory, but feel free to think so.

Althrough, I do feel this is a super crude and pointless way of talking about it which makes it seem esoteric and mystical.

[mu4]

Foundation of the theory? You mean Jung's association of classical elements (also used in astrology) with Thinking(air), Feeling (fire), Sensing (earth), and Intuition (water)? I haven't researched it, but I always thought Jung came up with the four base dichotomies independent of those classical elements. Still, I always found his association contradictory. I honestly would have picked Feeling with Water, for instance, at least if going by the archetypes laid out in hermetic thinking i.e. astrological concepts in how Water is explained (involving intuition, yes, but emotions as well.).

Either way, it does nothing to change my opinion.

Jung is not the foundation of socionics, Jung's observations can however are derivable from socionic theory. I don't care to change your opinion either. I think Jung is esoteric and crude as this post. Anyways if you think about it for just a moment, you will realize that it's so obvious you should be ashamed you don't understand.

I can believe he was inspired by the classical elements, but I see those dichotomies as apart from them. I also cannot think of a fifth dichotomy to describe what is being described (as far as breaking up perception) though I have tried to some degree.

Even more so is my problem with trying to connect these to quadra, especially regarding Jung's association with elements to the basic personality elements in the personality schools he unwittingly fathered. It becomes a contradiction, to put it mildly. As far as the seasons go, it is also of a groundless assertion and seems to emulate the idea that one quadra begins it all (Alpha) which I don't hold to by any means.

Seasons don't begin or end, it's only human understanding and explanations that provide a context for begining and ends.

[717495]

Let's not get all smart just yet. We still have a lot of dumb shit to do.

[mu4]

Excuse me if I sound clueless, but what are you talking about?

The basis of socionics is not Jung or MBTI, but rather a theory that derives Jung and MBTI from concepts such as information, information exchange between organisms and relationships based on compatibility of information exchanged between organisms.

The model representation for this information exchange is based on the carnot cycle, which is a thermodynamic cycle(Also the most efficient cycle possible).

The stages of the cycle are.

Compression(Source of potential energy)
Heat Addition(Activation of potential energy)
Expansion(Kinetic Energy)
Heat Subtraction(Heat subtraction)

The moment we start talking of heat exchange, the analogy to seasons become immediately apparent.

But what of the elements. As I said before, I believe the terms are crude and esoteric but they do represent the minds reflections upon the natural world and represent states of heat exchange in the world.

I do think it's basically pointless to talk about it in such a crude fashion, but so often people don't bother to understand the theory so they start and comment in threads like this.

[silverchris9]

Jung is not the foundation of socionics, Jung's observations can however are derivable from socionic theory. I don't care to change your opinion either. I think Jung is esoteric and crude as this post. Anyways if you think about it for just a moment, you will realize that it's so obvious you should be ashamed you don't understand.

Oh my god, you annoy the shit out of me. Like, seriously, I think that if you listed out every single one of your opinions about anything, I would disagree with every single one. And not just disagree. I would like, think each one was a fresh insanity. I bet you hate tomatoes and cherry starburst.

But then you seem like a nice person (for a cherry-hating hyper-rationalist who fails to understand how awesome Carl Jung is). I'm so confused.

[silverchris9]

@hkmr: Okay, I think I'm on the same page now. I basically agree.

Seriously? You agree that the basis of socionics is the carnot cycle, something we don't even know if Augusta knew wtf it is? I don't understand how that can possibly make sense.

[silverchris9]

Your status makes me sad. Also, it sounds like an ILI sick of being over-critical. Perhaps SEEs held ILIs to be less critical just like SLEs help IEIs be less... in dreamland. Also, I totally overanalyze music all the time and it annoys the mess out of my SEE brother. Shrug. But maybe it's because I frequently use that overanalysis to explain why the music he likes sucks.

I actually gave it some more thought and I have a vague idea about what he could mean. But I was largely reacting to the fact that all of hkkmr's opinions drive me insane. Shrug.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Brilliand]

I think Hkkmr actually knows of some early article by Augusta relating the Carnot cycle to Socionics... I'm guessing he has that bookmarked and can post it easily, so I won't bother searching for it.

I'd not go so far as to say that it was the foundation, but I think Augusta did try to adapt to to Socionics rather early on (and as with most adaptations to Socionics, it wasn't all that hard to fit, particularly since it has four parts).

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Brilliand]

That's fundamental, it's in anything, it's not about the coincidence of number four, exclusively. No matter where you go, you have to do this separation, in two, four, sometimes eight.

Some systems divide things into three or seven (or, yes, five) - those tend to be hard to match to Socionics.

[Creepy-male]

I understand the association with the elements, but being Delta, I don't think earth or winter applies to me or my quadra, in all honestly, I dislike all these categorical things. How is Delta winter and Gamma spring? This might be all just from my perspective, but Gamma feels more winter and earthy to me. Meaning, can't you fit every quadra into every possibility because the qualities are so broad and abstract? I don't mean to be a thread ruiner though

Yet it not unreasonable to fit people in 16 types...... lol

[Creepy-male]

Althrough, I do feel this is a super crude and pointless way of talking about it which makes it seem esoteric and mystical.

god I really don't like you... you can't even have fun with a little analogy. No one here is claiming this is the ultimate truth, its a fun activity to exercise the mind by making analogies.

Second of all just because things may seem esoteric and mystical doesn't mean they aren't useful. I mean consider a cellphone, to a less sophisticated person it would seem like magic, to a less sophisticated person explaining the engineering and physics that goes into encoding ones voice and sending it across the country would seem esoteric and not grounded in their physical conception of reality. But at the end of the day, the cellphone works, regardless of the emo kids feelings on the sidelines whining about how he doesn't understand.

So do yourself a favor and stop rejecting ideas purely because they feel esoteric and mystical and start rejecting ideas that are useless in function (like this comment you've made).

This activity has many potential functions; some have found it helpful to use the elements to express their understanding of the quadras, other like myself are merely looking for a fun activity to exercise their mind, and even others are using this topic as a venue for expressing their discontent with categorization.

Look at the big picture. This topic isn't useless, even if you consider it thus, it even has its use for you to take small jabs at me for some reason that is beyond me. I mean I don't think I've ever heard you say anything positive in relation to any post I've had. Not that it matters much, but to me that seems like you have a hidden issue with me -- I'd at least think on occasion I'd accidently do something that would earn me at least a non-critical neutral reply, but no, and thats not so grandiose a conception either; many times I've had people say positive or neutral things to me when I haven't really even done anything I feel to merit it, and not just me, other people I've seen personally witness this miracle at other peoples hands.

Your negativity stands out to me, and its a good indicator more is at play here than simply the discussion of elements and personality. I'll ask you to please refrain from these subversive comments, unless they serve some greater productive purpose or you present the real issue for disccusion, otherwise I'll simply place you on ignore if this continues too far. I am not interested in entertaining your endless supply of criticisms.... if you don't like it leave, many people, including myself don't expect you to agree with them on everything. So unless its productive..........

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[silverchris9]

Try a physically exhausted ILI deprived of food trying to make heads and tails of all this airy-fairy stuff. I'm on my last wheel. =P I probably should have jumped in this thread at a time when I wasn't too hungry to think. I was really just looking for an excuse to be hyper-critical and failed epicly.

Wait... I said status. But I meant signature. I got the two confused.

Sorry you're exhausted. That sucks. Immensely. Hope it gets better, quickly.

[crazedrat]

you forgot heart. didn't you watch that shitty show where they have heart as the fifth element?

[Mattie]

Yet it not unreasonable to fit people in 16 types...... lol

The difference would be that this is trying to guess at your personality, and really, Socionics isn't trying to guess at your personality. It's just what the people who follow it have done. It's more of a thought process and you decide what to do with it. I say this because this is like astrology what we're talking about. They are generalized sets of traits that can apply to anyone. We're just tapping into the archetypes in our minds that we associate with what's at hand and match them up, which isn't being true to life.

[ArchonAlarion]

you forgot heart. didn't you watch that shitty show where they have heart as the fifth element?

also darkness/shadow and light

electricity

ice

colorless mana