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Thread: Trusting others' ability to interpret information

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    Default Trusting others' ability to interpret information

    IDK if this is part of being aristocratic, or some sort of Te thing, or just something you realize the further you go into academia, or what. Or just some concern with truth... but.....

    I was just thinking about how difficult it is to really discuss anything substantial with someone who you don't know very well. You don't know any of their underlying motivations for what they say, how much they've researched anything, or their moral disposition when it comes to matters. Or their ability to actually honestly comprehend how much they know about something.

    I find myself drawn to deltas about stuff like this, honestly. Because some of the most thorough and imo complete 'learners' of things are delta or at least valuing. That's how it seems, but idk. I've become increasingly wary about things like this.

    And I don't mind putting effort into things, into building a relationship and deeper understandings. But I definitely feel like there are some components to doing this that are out of my hands - like maturity, and 'intellectual discipline', if you will. I really kind of wish I had a 'delta academic' in various fields that I could just talk to and become friends with and share high quality information with over time ... : /


    ))) I already seem to be forming a cartel of such sorts ((((

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    xerx's Avatar
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    Must be a thing.

    Ti types aren't likely to trust anybody but themselves when it comes to forming a conclusion about a piece of information. Even if someone else explains it, there is a need to personally understand enough to come to a conclusion; even if that person is a close colleague or a trusted source.** It follows that there is an implicit assumption of being able to categorize and classify information as right or wrong regardless of the source it came from, which ultimately implies that Ti types value freer interactions with others (Fe) that don't unnecessarily constrain information flow into restrictive channels (Fi).

    An example is ESFj - INTj duality. ESFjs like someone to explain the system to them, not just tell them the answer. The INTj is perfectly suited for something like that.


    [ETA: A good movie about Fe - Fi quadra differences when it comes to information is Good Morning, Vietnam. Te/Fi is portrayed in light of its capacity for censorship. The movie basically advocates freedom of speech and is heavily Ti/Fe centric, the protagonist is ESFj and the main antagonist is ESTj. There is a sub-theme with a second antagonist who is INFp, so there is also a minor Ne - Ni conflict going on.]


    **There are exceptions, of course. Sometimes you have no hope of ever understanding a system. Picture someone who sucks at physics trying to program a relativistic calculator. He'd have to use Te, say, to compensate for the Ti parts he couldn't understand. And the experience wouldn't be satisfying because he didn't use a valued function.
    Last edited by xerx; 03-20-2010 at 08:52 AM.
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    i'll tear down the sky Mattie's Avatar
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    I don't think this is type related, it's maturity/academically related. Either by how many experiences you have with other people when you realized their perception takes and values information differently, or how often you noticed people propose ideas that seem like you'd have to rearrange the way you think to understand it, you should question not their reliability so much, but just how it is different from your's and what you can understand from this difference. So whenever you ask for someone's opinion or hear something they say, you can have a better outlook on why they said or think the way they do.

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    I trust my dual to help me understand things that are beyond and outside the scope of morally correct behavior of other individuals...which is to say to look at things from an objective reality view point, rather then subjective viewpoint, which is what I do naturally. Because my heart goes first, I tend to be very trusting of people's intentions and I don't mind getting myself into dangerous situations, where others would not follow first. I believe that my dual knows exactly how to put up walls between people who are excessively and thoughtlessly rude and so I value this about them and I often heed their advise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    I trust my dual to help me understand things that are beyond and outside the scope of morally correct behavior of other individuals...which is to say to look at things from an objective reality view point, rather then subjective viewpoint, which is what I do naturally.
    (Yeah.... )

    Because my heart goes first, I tend to be very trusting of people's intentions and I don't mind getting myself into dangerous situations, where others would not follow first. I believe that my dual knows exactly how to put up walls between people who are excessively and thoughtlessly rude and so I value this about them and I often heed their advise.
    Put up walls, or, otherwise neutralize, incapacitate, destroy, push away, ... basically, we know how to effectively cut relationships, you could say.

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    (Yeah.... )


    Put up walls, or, otherwise neutralize, incapacitate, destroy, push away, ... basically, we know how to effectively cut relationships, you could say.
    YES, do you have to say it like that?
    Between you and I, I know what you are capable of doing to others; I was hopeing the rest of you wouldn't do the same to me. Thank goodness I have a dual who can remind me to not pay attention to those times.
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 03-20-2010 at 07:49 PM.

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    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
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    It feels to you like Te-valuers are complete learners of things because you're a Te valuer, I think. Feels the same way to me with betas (Harold Bloom). I would imagine that I could have a serious discussion with someone I didn't know particularly well, but mostly because I would guess their underlying assumptions based on their conclusions and reasoning, and then use that to determine to what extent I agree with them or to what extent their points are relevant to my outlook. But I'm just an undergrad, so maybe that'll change as I climb higher in academia (I'm seriously considering pursuing a Ph.D in English after undergrad is over).

    Slightly unrelated, but sort of tangentially related, I was reading some literary criticism the other day and I noticed how the argument was totally about quadra values (New Historicism and the like, which is heavily Te-valuing vs. Harold Bloom "Bardolotry" or "Aesthetic Criticism" which is heavily Ni-valuing). And it was hilarious how nobody engaged with each others' arguments, because they just couldn'tbecause of quadra differences. So they ended up just repeating their basic assumptions: "poetry is inherently hierarchical" or as Nietzche says "every talent unfolds itself by fighting" (beta Se) vs. "there's no need to make such sharp high-low distinctions" (delta Ne); "we should ignore whether or not we agree with the political and ethical view expressed or implied by works of art" or as Emerson says, "clear your mind of cant" (beta Fe/Ti) vs. "we should consider the political and ethical views and consequences of works of art when judging what to read and what should be read" (delta Fi/Te).
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

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    ^ I like that post.

    It also makes me think of something that was just posted in another thread by you

    Ah, makes sense. I have a post on the explain quadras thread inspired by this response. Te-valuers, especially deltas, seek conceptual stability. Fe valuers, betas above all, are much more willing to accept conceptual instability for the sake of questing towards some ideal. Deltas assume that there is a "fact" that can be "established," and want to move on from there. Betas are more inclined to note that "facts" are indeed "established," that is, conventions that we agreed to assume, which may or may not reflect nature, or what is. I think there's a quote from Nietzche wherein he says something to the effect that truths are lies that people have forgotten are lies. Deltas take those truths as truths. Beta, in the quest for the (unattainable) ideal, are more willing to be in flux, not not hold so tightly to those truths which are necessary to Te types (and to betas to some degree, although again, preference is key; I wish that I were strong enough to live without "facts," while deltas would find such a notion ludicrous).

    Again, I am reminded that strong or valued Ni often leads to Keats' Negative Capability ("being in Mysteries, uncertainties, without any irritable reaching after facts"), which is, at its core, an ability to deal with the absence of facts, while weak or unvalued Ni often leads to a lack thereof.

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    It feels to you like Te-valuers are complete learners of things because you're a Te valuer, I think. Feels the same way to me with betas (Harold Bloom). I would imagine that I could have a serious discussion with someone I didn't know particularly well, but mostly because I would guess their underlying assumptions based on their conclusions and reasoning, and then use that to determine to what extent I agree with them or to what extent their points are relevant to my outlook. But I'm just an undergrad, so maybe that'll change as I climb higher in academia (I'm seriously considering pursuing a Ph.D in English after undergrad is over).

    Slightly unrelated, but sort of tangentially related, I was reading some literary criticism the other day and I noticed how the argument was totally about quadra values (New Historicism and the like, which is heavily Te-valuing vs. Harold Bloom "Bardolotry" or "Aesthetic Criticism" which is heavily Ni-valuing). And it was hilarious how nobody engaged with each others' arguments, because they just couldn'tbecause of quadra differences. So they ended up just repeating their basic assumptions: "poetry is inherently hierarchical" or as Nietzche says "every talent unfolds itself by fighting" (beta Se) vs. "there's no need to make such sharp high-low distinctions" (delta Ne); "we should ignore whether or not we agree with the political and ethical view expressed or implied by works of art" or as Emerson says, "clear your mind of cant" (beta Fe/Ti) vs. "we should consider the political and ethical views and consequences of works of art when judging what to read and what should be read" (delta Fi/Te).
    Here's the deal with you dear, and please try to keep an open mind, as I am INFj and I see the real person behind the made up type....

    Observe your writing and nothing about the comments you make have any relation to your personal feelings about the things you write about?...that's not IEI style.

    You are an NT of some kind, incorporating and tying in information and drawing logical and coherent conclusions.

    You should see a compliment...I have been meaning to tell you that for a while now. So what's the deal with you self typing IEI, when NOTHING that you write about reflects that AT ALL?

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