Fi, Fe, faces, eyes

[Rubicon]

Fi-valuers showing more emotion in their eyes than Fe-valuers - does this fit with people's observations? Fe types drawing attention away from the eyes when they're speaking - to their facial expressions etc - and Fi people using them to communicate...

[Beautiful sky]

Fi-valuers showing more emotion in their eyes than Fe-valuers - does this fit with people's observations? Fe types drawing attention away from the eyes when they're speaking - to their facial expressions etc - and Fi people using them to communicate...

I don't believe that the above is correct.

[Rubicon]

I don't believe that the above is correct.

Any other observations to do with eyes then?

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Beautiful sky]

Any other observations to do with eyes then?

the only ways to tell type really is to look at the pictures and patterns of the people in each list and read a little bio or watch their interviews for example look at the ESTj look alikes in this...

http://www.elle.com/var/ezflow_site/...Zeta-Jones.jpg

Because of the SF geans they look alike on face forward pictues; ESFp, ISFp ESFj, ISFj.

You will have a greater shot of knowing type if you VI for J/P first.

[Suz]

I have to say i kind of am noticing the same thing as you did Rubicon. Some of my acquaintances who i'm certain are Fi valuing types do, ime, have more expressive eyes (i.e. you can tell their emotions in their eyes) as opposed to my apparently MANY alpha friends, whose eyes aren't AS expressive (when I gaze into them, they feel emptier to me but yes they are more outgoing with their emotions). It's not a sure trend yet, as I haven't really thought about it in your terms until now. Will try to pay more attention now.

[xerx]

Fi-valuers showing more emotion in their eyes than Fe-valuers - does this fit with people's observations? Fe types drawing attention away from the eyes when they're speaking - to their facial expressions etc - and Fi people using them to communicate...

Here is something interesting. I don't know how valid the study is, but it seems plausible enough. Japanese people and Americans differ in how they view faces.

Japanese etiquette is much stricter about not expressing visible emotions, so they tend to express emotions with their eyes. Even their emoticons portray the eyes at the expense of other facial features:

^_^
>.<
;_;
o_O
^_-
(. )(. )

etc.

Americans look more at the mouth when expressing emotions or reading emoticons: , which is something most Japanese would find strange.

Interestingly enough, the article goes on to state that the Japanese believe in conformity, humbleness and subdued emotions as something that promotes better relationships. I'd classify that sort of reasoning as Fi-based, and Modern Japan itself is probably Delta. So the OP may very well be correct.

[xixi]

There are also aspects of Gamma in Modern Japan - the drive towards forward progress, technological development, 'efficiency', a highly competitive workforce. And this also fits in with Fi-valuing.

What i've heard about Fi/Fe eyes...

Fi - tendency towards wide doe-eyes
Fe - more oblique/almond shaped, 'smiley' eyes

[Creepy-male]

Here is something interesting. I don't know how valid the study is, but it seems plausible enough. Japanese people and Americans differ in how they view faces.

Japanese etiquette is much stricter about not expressing visible emotions, so they tend to express emotions with their eyes. Even their emoticons portray the eyes at the expense of other facial features:

^_^
>.<
;_;
o_O
^_-
(. )(. )

etc.

Americans look more at the mouth when expressing emotions or reading emoticons: , which is something most Japanese would find strange.

Interestingly enough, the article goes on to state that the Japanese believe in conformity, humbleness and subdued emotions as something that promotes better relationships. I'd classify that sort of reasoning as Fi-based, and Modern Japan itself is probably Delta. So the OP may very well be correct.

I express emotions with my pelvic area, sort of like a dog does with its tail, except instead of wagging, its thrusting or rolling.... etc......

people find it really strange.....

[munenori2]

There are also aspects of Gamma in Modern Japan - the drive towards forward progress, technological development, 'efficiency', a highly competitive workforce. And this also fits in with Fi-valuing.

Depending on what we mean by Modern Japan, I would slightly disagree with you. The Warring States period seemed more like a beta world which as time passed into the Meiji restoration, which was more gamma. Then during hirohito's reign it was pretty much a beta revival and post WWII has pretty much been overwhelmingly delta, with occasional alpha and gamma undercurrents and of course beta romanticism making an appearance in different ways, like in cinema, and mostly portrayed in a tragic, something-has-been-lost sort of way.

[silverchris9]

Depending on what we mean by Modern Japan, I would slightly disagree with you. The Warring States period seemed more like a beta world which as time passed into the Meiji restoration, which was more gamma. Then during hirohito's reign it was pretty much a beta revival and post WWII has pretty much been overwhelmingly delta, with occasional alpha and gamma undercurrents and of course beta romanticism making an appearance in different ways, like in cinema, and mostly portrayed in a tragic, something-has-been-lost sort of way.

I honesty think most of the world fluctuated somewhat like that, with a huge beta upsurge around the time of WWII and then a huge anti-beta reaction later on. Apparently US presidents have tended to be beta and gamma lately, but generally I find that the ideological climate is less beta after WWII, which featured a huge upsurge of crazy beta leaders, and even if America is still fairly beta-heavy, I find that most European states are more delta-ish these days.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

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[krieger]

- Beta (People's Party) - 265

Christian democrats are Beta? Don't mean to rain on your parade, but that's really dubious. Why would betas flock to a movement based on the teachings of a stereotype INFj (JC)?

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

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[krieger]

Titles and naming conventions mean absolutely nothing, the classic example was communism which is Delta but which is associated with Beta because its implementation in the Eastern block. So is the political left.
In the same manner, Liberalism is associate with business which is in turn associated with commerce which is associated with capitalism. They inherently are not stronger connected than they are with other stances: eg. Social-Democrats with business but also left.

I share this contradictory view of political ideology, but this exactly why a list like the one you show above is bogus. Your view that politics is neatly divided into segments that reflect the socionics quadras doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

On a related note, you type Phaedrus as ENFp (he self-types as INTp), but his views were anti-communist and anti-collectivist, and he has typed Ayn Rand (Libertarian) as an identical of his on the basis of convergence of political thoughts between him and her. He has at one point explicitly said he was politically conservative (which is right > left), too. I mention him as an example because he is one of the few people around here that I know your typing of and also know the political views of to some extent.

[DirectorAbbie]

Fi-valuers showing more emotion in their eyes than Fe-valuers - does this fit with people's observations? Fe types drawing attention away from the eyes when they're speaking - to their facial expressions etc - and Fi people using them to communicate...

I agree with this.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

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[krieger]

In politics, right-wing, rightist and the Right are generally used to describe support for a stratified society to promote or preserve social order or traditional values.

Tradition
A common way to sum up the beliefs of the right is to focus on a support for tradition

You seem to disagree with wikipedia too on the absence of a relation between the political Right and Conservatism.

So where's the problem?

Let's take the fact that you call Communism a Delta philosophy and Phaedrus, one of your benchmark "ENFps", abhors it violently. How do you explain this?

[krieger]

Or let's take Geert Wilders, a Rightist, anti-statist Libertarian who you call ENFp. Are you retyping him or something?

And how on earth do you end up associating Delta with communism if they are Libertarian? Communism is all about worshipping the state.

[krieger]

Pinocchio, it's not like I have a lack of examples that contradict your views. It just hard to find ones that we share knowledge on. Just about every member of my direct family votes opposite to what you predict them to vote on. My delta parents vote christian democratic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christi...ocratic_Appeal), my gamma sister and her gamma boyfriend vote right liberal democratic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VVD). The big picture you paint is just full of shit.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

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[krieger]

Let's take the fact that you call Communism a Delta philosophy and Phaedrus, one of your benchmark "ENFps", abhors it violently. How do you explain this?

As a clarification, I never said that Phaedrus is a benchmark IEE, but the opposite, that he's a particular flavour. I could bet anything because I know what I said, and also I don't overlook your hypocritical way of putting words in other's mouth in the hope that people would believe you and take you rotten side. But we already got used to that, didn't we?

I put the political left as Fi/Te, therefore Delta and also Gamma, that's all. So, if for you left (and all the left-oriented parties) means exclusively communism, it's fine for me, you're the only clown here.

You haven't answered my question. I have to assume you don't have an explanation and admit being wrong by answering this way.

Well I said that Libertarians are Alpha and Delta, so where's the problem again? Also, I also connected conservatorism with Beta and Delta. So again, where's the problem? You actually support my view, or was this what you meant?

The part where it says rightist. The guy is an ardent supporter of the unregulated market (apart from limiting immigration) and lowering taxes by cutting back on what he calls "left experiments". To call him economically left like you do is wrong on several levels.

Indeed I should have said "rather Delta" because things are not so neat in reality, but in any case, the doctrine of communism has nothing to do with state centralization. The existing ex-communist states were actually totalitarian ones, what has one to do with the other? The communist philosophy does not include authority but freedom + social responsibility, afaik.

No, instead, Beta Rationals like you stepped in and fooled the working class that they know their problems and they have the solutions. They did know their problems but they didn't give a shit actually about them, the solutions they, the ruling class, had were the solutions they profited from, lol.

Because in the eastern block was no such thing as true communism, that's only a label, there was indeed a ruling class, and calling one in the leadership as "comrade" is like calling you a "socionist". "Communist leaders" is a contradiction itself, so it's obvious that you won't understand the doctrine.

As has been pointed out by many thinkers before me, this supposed "real communism" you hear talk about is a pipe dream. When you want to share resources in a "each according to his ability unto according to their needs" way you have to invoke collectivism on some scale and force people to contribute to your utopean state. Resources just don't pop up out of nowhere to feed the dregs whoose "ability" amounts to nill. Said resources have to be brought in via taxes. The notion is incompatible with libertarianism, which is founded on the idea that any form of forced contribution is evil.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

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[krieger]

I think now I understand why you finally agreed with my typing on him

I never did. You're imagining things. I just said the suggestion was interesting.

Yes, so? As far as I know I told you already that associating to a party is not type-related.

What? This goes against everything you've been doing in this thread. I'm glad you've finally come to your senses, though.

I didn't call him "left" but I just agreed with you that I think he's an IEE as well as you do.

You have said in unambigious terms that Te/Fi valuing types, including ENFps, are economically left.

Netherlands have a social problem because of the immigration and their rights, as you probably know they have a huge number of minarets in a so small country, suffocating the local population. I talked to a girl from Netherlands and she said that she is bothered by middle-eastern immigrant men who whistle after her and are too bold. She told me that the rest of the people doesn't do that.
I myself saw in Sweden a worker who was howling "like a wolf" after chicks, he was also dark-skinned, it appeared to me as middle-eastern, and he was contrasting with the civilized people there. So I assume the Dutch girl wasn't tell me lies.

The muslim population is 5% of the total, prospected to raise to 8% in the next 50 years. Depending on the locality we're talking about suffocation is often an exaggeration. Other than that I agree that these problems exist but don't see how they are relevant to the discussion in this thread.

If a country is communist, for example, and the majority of people agree with it's politics, it doesn't mean they are all Delta (as of my association) or Beta (as of yours), you dumb ass.

I'm disregarding this because it is completely out of context and doesn't refer back to anything in the discussion. Moreover it contains an unwarranted insult of which the existence can only be explained in terms of your lack of character.

How does this contradict what I said?

Communism is not utopian? It is, and this is the reason for those anomalies in history and the reason why you associate communism with totalitarianism - things which are inherently antagonist, all should be equal in communism.

Communism is about a state controlled economy. It isn't strictly totalitarian, but is definitely a huge step towards such as system.

In the same way you wrongly consider that Beta should be associated with left. Don't you do this association?

No.

[Rubicon]

I didn't noticed this. So is like Fe types draw attention intentionally or simply they're more expressive so that the observer is distracted by that? I think I agree with this, and btw, that image of those mysterious Arabian women with covered face feels very Fi-ish and I think it offers a great advantage to Fi valuing types.
Actually, as much as I studied, women equally as men enforce that outfit - against Fe "shows", so it makes sense.

Anyway, I don't want to derail the subject, I'd like to hear more details of your observation.

Oh I haven't thought too much about it. I was just thinking of a few IEEs that I'd mistyped as ESE.. and noticed that the difference between the way they smiled seemed mostly to do with their eyes - the IEEs seeming to have a coquettish look to them compared to the ESEs. :-P Like even angling their head down in photos so that their eyes are the focal point. These photos could be an example of Fi vs Fe:



I agree with WorkaholicsA in that Fe eyes can kinda look empty in comparison. My eyes FEEL empty in comparison! Like I'd really have to concentrate or be completely vulnerable to summon up a similar look. haha But yeah, I just noticed it in IEEs in particular, but I think it could be the same with other Fi types - like ESIs - the way they can reduce a person to ashes with one piercing look. :-p And as far as myself goes, I know that when I use my eyes to communicate emotion, it's mostly to do with the muscles around the eyes.. like squinting them or opening them wide or raising my eyebrows or something - in a cartoon character kinda way you know? :-P So a person has to look at my face as a whole to get what emotion I'm trying to portray - it's more about lines and shapes and structure.. if you know what I mean. In a way, all that movement distracts people from seeing what's really there. To get cheesy, my theory is that Fi people seem more comfortable with the concept of their eyes being a window to their soul.

[Rubicon]

Here is something interesting. I don't know how valid the study is, but it seems plausible enough. Japanese people and Americans differ in how they view faces.

Japanese etiquette is much stricter about not expressing visible emotions, so they tend to express emotions with their eyes. Even their emoticons portray the eyes at the expense of other facial features:

^_^
>.<
;_;
o_O
^_-
(. )(. )

etc.

Americans look more at the mouth when expressing emotions or reading emoticons: , which is something most Japanese would find strange.

Interestingly enough, the article goes on to state that the Japanese believe in conformity, humbleness and subdued emotions as something that promotes better relationships. I'd classify that sort of reasoning as Fi-based, and Modern Japan itself is probably Delta. So the OP may very well be correct.

Thanks .. I find that stuff really interesting!

[Rubicon]

the only ways to tell type really is to look at the pictures and patterns of the people in each list and read a little bio or watch their interviews for example look at the ESTj look alikes in this...

http://www.elle.com/var/ezflow_site/...Zeta-Jones.jpg

Some say that Zeta-Jones is LSI though. :-p Funny.. they look very similar to a friend of mine whose type has got to be LSI or LSE - I can't decide which.

[marooned]

I express emotions with my pelvic area, sort of like a dog does with its tail, except instead of wagging, its thrusting or rolling.... etc......

people find it really strange.....

so that's what's wrong with LXIs--they're so busy expressing their feelings below the waist that nobody notices and those who do think they have some kind of muscle spasm issue. Meanwhile, they are totally straight-faced. Well, thank god your dual will help you learn to express emotion above the waist. (another victory for Socionics!)

[Rubicon]

I love that there's a political debate in my thread..

[silverchris9]

Christian democrats are Beta? Don't mean to rain on your parade, but that's really dubious. Why would betas flock to a movement based on the teachings of a stereotype INFj (JC)?

Read the Gospel of John. It's so IEI it isn't funny (I don't think Jesus really had a type--neither does Hamlet--but I would not be surprised if St. John were an IEI). I really think Christianity (and most other religions for that matter, but definitely Christianity) offers something for every type. I'd love to correlate each of the gospels to a quadra, but I highly doubt that would work. Stab in the dark, though, Matthew = delta, Mark = gamma, Luke = alpha, John = beta, maybe switch Matthew and Luke.

Anyway, Christianity has nothing to do with beta or not, except perhaps in mainstream US Protestantism, which is rather heavily alpha-delta. But Pentacostalism, whatever it is now, OBVIOUSLY had its roots in a beta movement.

Also, now that I think about it, the "tsunami of beta values" in the 30s and 40s (I agree with that phrase, btw), was probably in some degree a reaction to the gamma-delta (emphasis on the delta) British Empire of the Victorian Era.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

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[Rubicon]

I just speculate that Fi types have something up their a** and they need a way to transmit that while their moves are restricted .

pfft.. fine then

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

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[717495]

Oh I haven't thought too much about it. I was just thinking of a few IEEs that I'd mistyped as ESE.. and noticed that the difference between the way they smiled seemed mostly to do with their eyes - the IEEs seeming to have a coquettish look to them compared to the ESEs. :-P Like even angling their head down in photos so that their eyes are the focal point. These photos could be an example of Fi vs Fe:

Clarie Danes' expressions look extremely similar to mine in some instances, which almost makes me think she could be an alpha NT and upon finding out more about her, from memory. I would accept this truth. Since IEE is close to ILE, I could also see that then. But I'm speaking entirely from a VI perspective, one lacking. I'd have to actually turn the page and look up some things, which is too professional of me.

Edit: her eyes look Ti-ish, seriously.

[Rubicon]

Clarie Danes' expressions look extremely similar to mine in some instances, which almost makes me think she could be an alpha NT and upon finding out more about her, from memory. I would accept this truth. Since IEE is close to ILE, I could also see that then. But I'm speaking entirely from a VI perspective, one lacking. I'd have to actually turn the page and look up some things, which is too professional of me.

Edit: her eyes look Ti-ish, seriously.

Hmm And I was thinking when I was looking through her photos that her eyes didn't look as flirtatious as I'd remembered. lol So I picked the best out of a bad lot. Poor scholarship ftw.

[krieger]

It goes against what you understood from what I said. You blew it, you blew it, don't try to sew it

It does go against everything you've been doing in this thread. Your response to my statement is a complete non-sequitur.

I was talking all the time about the quadra values, not types. Even if an Delta would be a far-rightist, at home the same leftist he/she would be, trust me.

This makes it impossible for anything you say to ever be tested against reality. You'll just play the "no real scottsman" card every time anyone finds a case in which you predict wrong. You can't even test your own statements. This should give us every reason to believe you've fallen for the subjective validation trap. subjective validation - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

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[krieger]

Even dumb one can easily see the connection, at least between Fi-valuing social obligations & stuff and political left. Unless he/she is dumber than dumb.

The political Right typically believes in keeping the market free and unregulated and letting any type of poverty get resolved by means of voluntary charity. That's the combination of Te's Bussiness Logic and Fi's Relational Ethics (charity being a personal relation between benefactor and beneficiary) right there. How is this any less of a plausible connection? I am saying this for the sake of argument. My real position is that there is no clear correlation between types and their political affliation, or none that I would assert with confidence.

[krieger]

...addition to previous post...

I suppose you're right. With people like you who misread what I write, it is a subjective validation, still my sayings are not inherently generating that. You misrepresented my sayings (I never said a "leftist" type involves in politics exclusively in left parties) and now you're blaming me of saying that? Lol!

The point is that if you keep saying that your beliefs don't have an influence on anything real and measurable (such as types getting involved in certain parties), the result is that your beliefs are proven to be inconsequential. They don't mean or do anything other than to entertain some fantasy of yours. I don't care whether I end up proving that your views are wrong or inconsequential. The result would be the same.

[FDG]

Lol @ anything said by Pinocchio in this thread.