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Thread: Se and Effort

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    The Soul Happy-er JWC3's Avatar
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    Default Se and Effort

    I've come to the conclusion the Se leading types, while being able to accurately measure how much effort it's going to take to accomplish a given goal or objective, really don't let that knowledge deter them even if the amount of effort is rather large. More or less basing decisions on "Do I want it or not" (Concerned with own motivation) Rather than "Is it obtainable or not" (Concerned with the amount of effort the individual is able to put forward)

    Comments? Am I going about this completely the wrong way?
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    The decision to base something on the question "Is it obtainable or not?" sounds like something a rational function would do. Probably Te. So yeah, you're probably right.
    You can do anything with a bayonet except sit on it.

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    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
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    Agreed. Of course this applies more to SLEs and LSIs than to gamma SFs (who value Te), but by and large, yes, Se tends to be more concerned with what is desired and to what degree it is desired than whether or not the goal can be attained. This is something I particularly admire in Se-egos, and something I would like to see reflected in myself (and do, to some degree). I think they tend to go after what they want without thinking very hard about whether or not it can be done, and that's how you ought to do it, I think, because even if you try for an extremely difficult goal and don't succeed, you'll become a heck of a lot stronger by aiming for that goal. Also, focusing on the task and not information about the task tends to breed more success, I think.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

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    Yeah, that's the trait I find the most stupid.
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    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by he died with a felafel View Post
    @silverchris: i'd imagine it's a very tiring way of going about achievement. so much energy simply wasted if the goal turns out to be unattainable...
    I'm sure that's how it seems to Te-valuing types, but like I said, reaching after the most difficult and distant goals makes you stronger for the next attempt. For example, my friend who's SLE is learning Ancient Greek in an intensive course right now, and I think having a fairly rough time of it, but when he has to learn whatever language he'll learn next, I'm sure he'll have a (comparatively) easier time of it, plus the kind of study habits you gain from being in a class where it's "study intensely or fail" are, I'm sure, highly beneficial. But I guess that's not quite an "unattainable" goal. But it's certainly aiming for the extremely difficult at the outset.

    Or, if you want a historical example, John Keats' (IEI, not SLE, but still the same point) Endymion (his first very long poem) is generally considered to have been a failure (I think Keats himself admitted as much in a letter). But if he hadn't gone through the difficult exercise of trying and failing to write a long narrative work, we probably wouldn't have the Great Odes (i.e., "Ode on a Grecian Urn," "Ode to a Nightengale," "To Autumn," etc) much less Hyperion and The Fall of Hyperion (two other long poems by Keats, both of which are very, very, very good). Also, random side note, even though Endymion was a failure, that's the poem from which we get the phrase, "A thing of beauty is a joy forever/it's loveliness increases; it will never/fade into nothingness..." and I think we would all be the poorer if we didn't have that bit.

    Or in Tennyson's Ulysses/Dante's Inferno, Ulysses (obviously a portrait of an SLE) may not reach his goal of sailing to the "Blessed Isles," (which is like heaven) but he does go further and see more than anyone's ever seen before. His goal (reaching, basically, heaven, by boat) isn't achieved, but look at all he achieved on the way to the goal!

    Also, things don't move from the realm of the impossible into the realm of the possible until someone does something thought impossible, or something not thought of at all. And then once it's in the realm of the possible, suddenly you find bunches and bunches of people doing a thing that we formerly thought was impossible. Sometimes what seems impossible is merely inconceivable by current conceptual models, which is why Ni intuits that it is possible, and Se drives on towards the goal first and foremost, more than dwelling on how "possible" it is. That said, between Ti and Ni, excellent betas can avoid wasting excessive energy on subgoals that may be excessively difficult or impossible, and focus on only the main goal, regardless of difficulty.

    Also also, Beta STs (especially SLEs) obviously have boundless reserves of energy which they can call up at will, so they can afford to waste some.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

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    Éminence grise mikemex's Avatar
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    Se is the ability to determine relationships of power or, in other words, relationships of dependence. Se types are better than anyone else at at spotting elements within a system that have more effect over others. For example, most would think that talking to a manager rather to a regular employee in a negotiation would be of higher benefit because the manager has a higher degree of decision power, but it's generally false. A simple secretary often has more real influence over the operation of an office than the manager itself, simply because all details go through her and that allows for a big chance of manipulating stuff.

    Se types use this awareness to maximize their effectiveness by focusing into the most influential elements of a given system. This is similar but not identical to the way Te works. The difference lies in that Se does not manipulate the amount or arrangement of the elements; it's kind of static. Te, on the other side, manipulates the system and its elements to arrange them in a more efficient way. Efficiency is thus a shared Se/Te concept.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    Se is the ability to determine relationships of power or, in other words, relationships of dependence. Se types are better than anyone else at at spotting elements within a system that have more effect over others. For example, most would think that talking to a manager rather to a regular employee in a negotiation would be of higher benefit because the manager has a higher degree of decision power, but it's generally false. A simple secretary often has more real influence over the operation of an office than the manager itself, simply because all details go through her and that allows for a big chance of manipulating stuff.

    Se types use this awareness to maximize their effectiveness by focusing into the most influential elements of a given system. This is similar but not identical to the way Te works. The difference lies in that Se does not manipulate the amount or arrangement of the elements; it's kind of static. Te, on the other side, manipulates the system and its elements to arrange them in a more efficient way. Efficiency is thus a shared Se/Te concept.
    Great writing!!!!

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    What do you mean?

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    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    Se types use this awareness to maximize their effectiveness by focusing into the most influential elements of a given system. This is similar but not identical to the way Te works. The difference lies in that Se does not manipulate the amount or arrangement of the elements; it's kind of static. Te, on the other side, manipulates the system and its elements to arrange them in a more efficient way. Efficiency is thus a shared Se/Te concept.
    I like that. Se is more how to apply a particular pressure to the existing situation; Te is more how to rearrange (and again, not so much add or subtract from the system as rearrange the existing elements) the situation so that particular goals can be achieved most easily/best.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

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    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    I like that. Se is more how to apply a particular pressure to the existing situation; Te is more how to rearrange (and again, not so much add or subtract from the system as rearrange the existing elements) the situation so that particular goals can be achieved most easily/best.
    Kinda like how Minde is doing now in the Delta Lounge.

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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    I've come to the conclusion the Se leading types, while being able to accurately measure how much effort it's going to take to accomplish a given goal or objective, really don't let that knowledge deter them even if the amount of effort is rather large. More or less basing decisions on "Do I want it or not" (Concerned with own motivation) Rather than "Is it obtainable or not" (Concerned with the amount of effort the individual is able to put forward)

    Comments? Am I going about this completely the wrong way?
    Makes perfect sense. From the INTj perspective it's the other way around: we believe to an extreme extent that changing our course in life can get us to our goals via a sequence of low resistance movements. Sometimes such an "easy path" doesn't exist, and that's when we get in trouble.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    Makes perfect sense. From the INTj perspective it's the other way around: we believe to an extreme extent that changing our course in life can get us to our goals via a sequence of low resistance movements. Sometimes such an "easy path" doesn't exist, and that's when we get in trouble.
    Low resistance but impactful movement is not . Ti focuses on elimination of contradictions.

    Labcoat, I think I just typed you my dear, you are ISTp or ISFp

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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    That's like saying ISFp is a type with high impact. Not gonna work.

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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    Labcoat, I think I just typed you my dear, you are ISTp or ISFp
    Awesome. You couldn't provide a more powerful proof of what a complete lunatic you are. You can rest assured that the next time a movement mounts against your person I will support it with every resource and every shred of effort available to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    That's like saying ISFp is a type with high impact. Not gonna work.
    What do you mean? you just told us your type, by focusing in on how you do things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    Awesome. You couldn't provide a more powerful proof of what a complete lunatic you are. You can rest assured that the next time a movement mounts against your person I will support it with every resource and every shred of effort available to me.
    You are turning aggressive because you don't like my typing?...that's irrational behavior...INTj's act like me, kind, sweet, very caring words, so do INTp's act like INFp's...this is somthing you don't seem to get. What it's too hard?

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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    Your brain is defective. I advise asking to get euthanized.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    Your brain is defective. I advise asking to get euthanized.
    That's uncalled for.

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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    You are turning aggressive because you don't like my typing?...
    There is a difference between aggression and just saying what's what without taking political correctness in account. I did the latter.

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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    That's uncalled for.
    So was your bullshit typing. Eye -> Eye.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    There is a difference between aggression and just saying what's what without taking political correctness in account. I did the latter.
    You are very aggressive, that is not a characteristic of most N types.

    " other people often get an impression that his results disproportionately exceed the efforts invested. He is characterized by non-ostentatious quiet persistence and reliable accomplishment of everything he commenced,"

    "he will scarcely spend his energy for futile work"

    "he does not hurry with the implementation of his ideas, until conditions for maximum effect will ripen. He is proud of his capability of not doing unnecessary things"

    Self typing does not work in your case. You may want to read about type related external traits and characteristics before you go further.

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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    You are very aggressive, that is not a characteristic of most N types.
    It's a little skill I picked up as an aside. I also write a shitload of theoretical material and get commended on for making insightful intuitive comments all the time. Oops. Looks like calling me a sensor also doesn't work. That leaves you with no where left to run.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    It's a little skill I picked up as an aside. I also write a shitload of theoretical material and get commended on for making insightful intuitive comments all the time. Oops. Looks like calling me a sensor also doesn't work. That leaves you with no where left to run.
    I advise you learn socionics before you talk about type because you're just putting a lot of inaccurate information out there.

    A sensor?
    What is it to call a person a sensor?
    I don't get it...what I am telling you is that what you said about yourself points you to this type and nothing more...



    "Makes perfect sense. From the INTj perspective it's the other way around: we believe to an extreme extent that changing our course in life can get us to our goals via a sequence of low resistance movements. Sometimes such an "easy path" doesn't exist, and that's when we get in trouble."

    For what you said, you called me a lunatic...nice show of character.

    " other people often get an impression that his results disproportionately exceed the efforts invested. He is characterized by non-ostentatious quiet persistence and reliable accomplishment of everything he commenced,"

    "he will scarcely spend his energy for futile work"

    "he does not hurry with the implementation of his ideas, until conditions for maximum effect will ripen. He is proud of his capability of not doing unnecessary things"

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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    I don't get it...what I am telling you is that what you said about yourself points you to this type and nothing more...
    I know it points to ISTp when taken out of context. It lists a few characteristics that I have previously said to be held common between ISTp and INTj. They are the characteristics associated with Ne/Si values (being naturally relaxed rather than mobilized), Result (given to carefully dosed expenditure of energy rather than all-out investment) and Introversion (general conservation of energy), all of which are shared between these two types. I recommend you take notes of what I say here and learn from the occasion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    I know it points to ISTp when taken out of context. It lists a few characteristics that I have previously said to be held common between ISTp and INTj. They are the characteristics associated with Ne/Si values (being naturally relaxed rather than mobilized), Result (given to carefully dosed expenditure of energy rather than all-out investment) and Introversion (general conservation of energy), all of which are shared between these two types. I recommend you take notes of what I say here and learn from the occasion.
    Diane is Ti primary, look at her comment below, emphasis on consistancy, prioritizind, etc...not saving energy for the right moment to act, which is

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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    I have told you what I think of you and your beliefs and have nothing further to add on either topic. Please do any further ravaging of the forum outside of my scope of vision while I do something productive with my time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    I have told you what I think of you and your beliefs and have nothing further to add on either topic. Please do any further ravaging of the forum outside of my scope of vision while I do something productive with my time.

    What diane said is very much how INTj would do.
    I leave you with one last thought, us nf rational types think first, then we shoot out a completely unnecessary and uncalled for comment like the one you made at me out of an emotional response first then logical second...that is another proof that you ARE NOT INTj.

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    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana View Post
    Hmm. Surely there's prioritization though. You try to grab everything at once, you're likely to end with nothing. Greater or more immediate concerns are tackled first, so you're constantly weaving your way towards your goals through the obtainable and necessary. I guess I'm saying that through prioritization of wants you're recognizing limitations on how much can be obtained. At least in any given time period. Correct? Or not? I'd think that otherwise you'd be too distracted to accomplish much of anything. A person (any person, not just Se leading) needs some of both. You have to recognize when to give it all you've got, and when to pace yourself
    Good point. That's sort of the outer limit of this theory; you can't take the idea too far, because, yes, you do have to prioritize, which is an implicit recognition of limitations on what can be attained, at least in a given period of time, as you said.

    It's all about emphasis. SLEs put the emphasis on moving towards what is desired,but of course they also have to prioritize wants, even if subconsciously. And then there's what I was saying about major goals and subgoals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aixelsyd View Post
    Wow, a thread where the OP actually said something spot on on socionics. So with that feat accomplished, please do not clog up this thread with a brand of fail socionics. Especially that that has no relevance to the thread whatsoever.
    +50
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

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