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  1. #81
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    I think I have to take a detour from my earlier announced order of approaching things, though it is actually closer to what has been requested in this thread. Thing is, the discussion with labcoat gave me more insight into socionics. It's been a while since that's happened. Had to consider some things again. Had to take a few days. I think it would be correct to discuss direct duality now.
    ---

    Let's play jeopardy:
    "Only the dual partnership"

    ---
    I'll approach it by a slightly longer route though. Direct activity partners always have the same net amount of intensity. While one person "gets it going" the other person becomes more withdrawn. One person always sort of drives and the other watches their back. But it's also a situation of one partner being sort of disinterested in what the other is doing. In a sense, the two aren't really working with the same project.
    Let's put this a bit more in context. ENTj - ESFp, the ESFp is taciturn, process, static. They are engaged in a process which they feel as positive. This process is by inference activity of one sort or another. The static person feels good when they are engaged in a process of their own choice. They wish the process to continue.

    Meanwhile the ENTj is a keen observer of results and based on the Ni worldview is able to appreciate and narrate the meaning of each individual action the ESFp does and gives positive feedback. They support each other's positivity but what happens here? Lack of criticism. Direction of each other's efforts to areas that are the most positive. The ENTj tries to string the ESFp along so as to maintain the mutually positive state. AND the ESFp wants the ENTj to keep doing this. Can this continue ad infinitum? No, it can't. And more to the point, it shouldn't.

    What process takes a lifetime to accomplish and engages you constantly a 100% of your time? Maybe aging, hardly any other thing comes to mind. So basically, since the partners are causing consistent positive feedback they are using their resources to gain happiness. Circulus vitiosus. And thereby, pointless. There is no meaning to the relationship, except happiness. There is no growth. And while the partners perceive themselves as free, they are actually more or less captured by the situation since breaking away from the happiest path of activity conduct causes an instant decrease of mutual happiness, a breakdown. So the partners are actually tied down to a certain way of conduct, a certain role. One partner trapped in a process, one partner unable to start one of their own.

    Let's also remind ourselves of the fact that mirror partners do not support, but rather compete with each other, as do conflict partners.

    So then.

    What relationship supports you, while not tying you down?

    That is the correct question!

    So then, what is this support like? I refer everyone to the cooperation between me and Minde in the socionics 101 thread. What is it based on? Functional cooperation while sharing the same state of involvedness. From Reinin criteria we know that the dynamic partner is happy in the very beginnings of projects and at the end, when they are not engaged as active person as of yet. The static partner is happy when they are engaged as an active person. The dynamic partner has difficulties with endurance, in continuing through the hard stretches of the projects. The static partner has difficulties in hatching and releasing projects.

    When the two meet and trust each other, the dynamic partner will push the static partner over the difficulty of starting a project. The static partner will push the dynamic partner during the long journey together. And the dynamic partner will call the journey to an end when its time is past.

    Both partners cause the other to do things that are difficult, even frigtening and definitely unpleasant, but ones which have meaning and are correct.

    The dual partnership is not about happiness. It's not even about harmony as much as it is a sort of tug of war. A sort of hegelian thesis-antithesis-synthesis thing. It is not about wanting to support the other or being drawn to the other, it is about inevitably supporting the other and needing the other. It is about progress. It is about success.

    Thank you every one. I'm done. I feel much better now.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    Smilingeyes, is there a possiblity that the reason why you see the ESTj type as something unhealthy and neurotic is because you're really describing an ENTj that is focussing on his PoLR function? Just curious what you think of that interpretation.
    Technically an ESTj is nothing more than an ENTj focusing on his PoLR function, but also an ENTj is nothing more than an ESTj focusing on his PoLR function.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes View Post

    Thank you every one. I'm done. I feel much better now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes View Post
    Technically an ESTj is nothing more than an ENTj focusing on his PoLR function, but also an ENTj is nothing more than an ESTj focusing on his PoLR function.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes View Post
    I think I have to take a detour from my earlier announced order of approaching things, though it is actually closer to what has been requested in this thread. Thing is, the discussion with labcoat gave me more insight into socionics. It's been a while since that's happened. Had to consider some things again. Had to take a few days. I think it would be correct to discuss direct duality now.
    ---

    Let's play jeopardy:
    "Only the dual partnership"

    ---
    I'll approach it by a slightly longer route though. Direct activity partners always have the same net amount of intensity. While one person "gets it going" the other person becomes more withdrawn. One person always sort of drives and the other watches their back. But it's also a situation of one partner being sort of disinterested in what the other is doing. In a sense, the two aren't really working with the same project.
    Let's put this a bit more in context. ENTj - ESFp, the ESFp is taciturn, process, static. They are engaged in a process which they feel as positive. This process is by inference activity of one sort or another. The static person feels good when they are engaged in a process of their own choice. They wish the process to continue.

    Meanwhile the ENTj is a keen observer of results and based on the Ni worldview is able to appreciate and narrate the meaning of each individual action the ESFp does and gives positive feedback. They support each other's positivity but what happens here? Lack of criticism. Direction of each other's efforts to areas that are the most positive. The ENTj tries to string the ESFp along so as to maintain the mutually positive state. AND the ESFp wants the ENTj to keep doing this. Can this continue ad infinitum? No, it can't. And more to the point, it shouldn't.

    What process takes a lifetime to accomplish and engages you constantly a 100% of your time? Maybe aging, hardly any other thing comes to mind. So basically, since the partners are causing consistent positive feedback they are using their resources to gain happiness. Circulus vitiosus. And thereby, pointless. There is no meaning to the relationship, except happiness. There is no growth. And while the partners perceive themselves as free, they are actually more or less captured by the situation since breaking away from the happiest path of activity conduct causes an instant decrease of mutual happiness, a breakdown. So the partners are actually tied down to a certain way of conduct, a certain role. One partner trapped in a process, one partner unable to start one of their own.

    Let's also remind ourselves of the fact that mirror partners do not support, but rather compete with each other, as do conflict partners.

    So then.

    What relationship supports you, while not tying you down?

    That is the correct question!

    So then, what is this support like? I refer everyone to the cooperation between me and Minde in the socionics 101 thread. What is it based on? Functional cooperation while sharing the same state of involvedness. From Reinin criteria we know that the dynamic partner is happy in the very beginnings of projects and at the end, when they are not engaged as active person as of yet. The static partner is happy when they are engaged as an active person. The dynamic partner has difficulties with endurance, in continuing through the hard stretches of the projects. The static partner has difficulties in hatching and releasing projects.

    When the two meet and trust each other, the dynamic partner will push the static partner over the difficulty of starting a project
    . The static partner will push the dynamic partner during the long journey together. And the dynamic partner will call the journey to an end when its time is past.

    Both partners cause the other to do things that are difficult, even frigtening and definitely unpleasant, but ones which have meaning and are correct.

    The dual partnership is not about happiness. It's not even about harmony as much as it is a sort of tug of war. A sort of hegelian thesis-antithesis-synthesis thing. It is not about wanting to support the other or being drawn to the other, it is about inevitably supporting the other and needing the other. It is about progress. It is about success.

    Thank you every one. I'm done. I feel much better now.
    . . .you feel better now that you got all that out of your system. . .

    Smilingeyes this was a very interesting post! Thank you for explaining all that! The one question I have though is, what's wrong with the only point of a relationship being happiness? I kinda like that idea!

    Just curious, did my flirtation with Ryu prompt this?
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    . . .you feel better now that you got all that out of your system. . .

    Smilingeyes this was a very interesting post! Thank you for explaining all that! The one question I have though is, what's wrong with the only point of a relationship being happiness? I kinda like that idea!

    Just curious, did my flirtation with Ryu prompt this?
    There is nothing wrong with a relationship just being for happiness. In fact, I'm all for it. But no, whatever you did, didn't affect it. Rather the nature of the dual relationship, the problems, with the shifting attraction, the exhilaration, the glowing but varying reports by socionists, it was one of the few puzzles that I had left. I had been pushing and pushing the time to seize it because I felt I needed more data. But the discussion I had in this thread with labcoat finally cracked the thing for me. I don't like unfinished business though. So I was really anxious to get it written.

    Further on I might add that while the direct dualization is undervalued instinctively due to negativity-issues, semi-duals and illusionary relations are actually easier to appreciate, though they OTOH support one less than the direct dual. It's an interesting conundrum causing a very challenging, but fulfilling relationship (if one accepts it for what it is).

    Another positive about dual relationships is that when one partner actually tries to do something negative to the other, it's as likely that they end up doing something that the other partner actually appreciates. So it's really hard to push a dual away, to really antagonize one. So it's like... duals, can't live with them, can't live without them. ;P ... Can't get rid of them, can't make them happy.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    Breaking stereotypes Suz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes View Post
    There is nothing wrong with a relationship just being for happiness. In fact, I'm all for it. But no, whatever you did, didn't affect it. Rather the nature of the dual relationship, the problems, with the shifting attraction, the exhilaration, the glowing but varying reports by socionists, it was one of the few puzzles that I had left. I had been pushing and pushing the time to seize it because I felt I needed more data. But the discussion I had in this thread with labcoat finally cracked the thing for me. I don't like unfinished business though. So I was really anxious to get it written.
    Well thanks because your post address a bunch of questions I had about activity relations and how they are different from duals (actually I even started wondering whether i'm actually EII because I so enjoy interacting with LSEs here and IRL).



    Quote Originally Posted by SmilingEyes
    Further on I might add that while the direct dualization is undervalued instinctively due to negativity-issues, semi-duals and illusionary relations are actually easier to appreciate, though they OTOH support one less than the direct dual. It's an interesting conundrum causing a very challenging, but fulfilling relationship (if one accepts it for what it is).
    Very interesting. Can you explain this a bit more? What do you mean by "support one less than the direct dual"? This also addresses questions I have about illusionary relations (which I haven't completely wrapped my mind around yet). My impression was that illusionary relations are boring and deactivating.

    Quote Originally Posted by SmilingEyes
    Another positive about dual relationships is that when one partner actually tries to do something negative to the other, it's as likely that they end up doing something that the other partner actually appreciates. So it's really hard to push a dual away, to really antagonize one. So it's like... duals, can't live with them, can't live without them. ;P ... Can't get rid of them, can't make them happy.
    I personally attest to this. Except when my dual wounded me deeply by deciding to pursue a relationship with someone shortly after I moved away. (i suspect this girl is either SLE, SEE, or EIE from the way she behaves as reflected in her comments on fb and pictures available to me about her). However, I dont think this was intentionally done to hurt me, so probably what you stated above doesn't apply.

    Anyway, sorry, Fi moment in the Te thread.
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    Ryu, hear that? Wanna have a relationship of happiness with me?

    j/k!

    Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes View Post
    Finally
    ENTj-Ni - ENFp-Ne

    and

    ESFp-Se - ESTj-Si

    aka



    ENFp-Ne is someone who increases in positivity, the closer they get to being an ENTp, yet they aren't really one. To an ENTj-Ni, this situation is anathema in so many ways. First of all, the ENFp-Ne suggests that the ENTj-Ni do active Si-kind of things (PoLR hit) secondly they see someone who is on their way of becoming something that is really annoying (ENTp), thirdly the ENFp seems unsuccessful and negative and just plain not really desirable company. To the ENFp-Ne, is also someone to avoid as they just turn the ENFp's attempts of approach into something bad. This relationship can take a much more pleasant course when the two meet "in neutral ground" discussing something which neither one considers to be their area of expertise and or if the partners misunderstand each other to the extent that they think the other is of the same temperament as they are. Nevertheless, since both partners are intuitive, any conflict is likely to happen through intermediaries.

    ESFp-Se - ESTj-Si
    This is very much a role reversal of the above. But any conflicts that happen are more direct. Actual physical fighting is not at all impossible.

    These two relationships have partners that are enough alike in their methods that they compete for job opportunities and physical resources, yet they are enough unlike that there is no empathy of temperament, no empathy of quadra values and no empathy of the general spirit of action. Furthermore any rapprochement is likely to happen along the Te-Fi axis which is also a miserable situation from both parties point of view.
    don't know how but i had missed this post. awesome.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes View Post
    ...
    Yeah, I've had those experiences with activity and duality. I do think that both can lead to growth though. There's also a substantial amount of babying in delta dual pairs imo. It's almost like you're answering to a parent in matters that you are not so confident in, and it can be quite annoying at times... You don't push the dual away when you get mad, because it might be perceived as just a temper tantrum from a kid, and you're confident that "yeah, he/she'll be back." This has happened with activity as well for me. You wonder if the other person is actually listening to what you're saying when you're mad, and they're not reacting the way you expected. hehe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes View Post
    The dual partnership is not about happiness. It's not even about harmony as much as it is a sort of tug of war. A sort of hegelian thesis-antithesis-synthesis thing. It is not about wanting to support the other or being drawn to the other, it is about inevitably supporting the other and needing the other. It is about progress. It is about success.
    That's how I feel about it myself, or at least that is what it should/is-could be. That's "how it's supposed to work". But it's not a given to work that way.

    Different maturity levels and different desires to 'work at things' or deal with growing as a person and accepting others ways of doing things - that they could actually be beneficial.... those impact the dualization process.

    "not all duals are create equal".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    That's how I feel about it myself, or at least that is what it should/is-could be. That's "how it's supposed to work". But it's not a given to work that way.

    Different maturity levels and different desires to 'work at things' or deal with growing as a person and accepting others ways of doing things - that they could actually be beneficial.... those impact the dualization process.

    "not all duals are create equal".
    I guess that was the problem between me and my dual. He still has a little growing up to do mentally.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes View Post
    Further on I might add that while the direct dualization is undervalued instinctively due to negativity-issues, semi-duals and illusionary relations are actually easier to appreciate, though they OTOH support one less than the direct dual. It's an interesting conundrum causing a very challenging, but fulfilling relationship (if one accepts it for what it is).
    FWIW,I don't actually find it easier to appreciate my semi-dual. My life has been dominated by S types for many years, so, it has generally been more fascinating and much easier to appreciate N-people. I've thought ESIs were nice or 'good people' usually.

    Another positive about dual relationships is that when one partner actually tries to do something negative to the other, it's as likely that they end up doing something that the other partner actually appreciates. So it's really hard to push a dual away, to really antagonize one. So it's like... duals, can't live with them, can't live without them. ;P ... Can't get rid of them, can't make them happy.
    I seem to be able to push just about anybody away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    Oh? let's see a pic.


    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    Just curious, did my flirtation with Ryu prompt this?
    Oh you IEEs... or, you think you're EII?
    Perhaps you could go into that a bit more.

    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    Ryu, hear that? Wanna have a relationship of happiness with me?

    j/k!

    I would like to have a relationship of happiness with you, yes

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    I just felt like writing a bit more of something. I've got some nice things out of my discussions with labcoat and I felt I ought to pay him back somehow. So, there's the large-cycle dichotomies that he doesn't believe in. I thought I'd try to explain how I view them on a practical level and from my personal Teish point of view. I hope he enjoys this.

    The large cycle dichotomies applying to Te are 'grave', 'compliant' and 'emotion-creating'.

    To reiterate a point from another thread, these are properties that really manifest with judging subtypes, so ENTj-Ni is not really compliant or grave or emotion-creating nor is ESTj-Si even if they are commonly labeled as such, and even your basic average ENTj and ESTj fail to show these traits. It is only the judging subtype.

    So...

    To me, it all starts with positivism-negativism again.
    All 'compliance' exists between positivist intuiters and negativist sensors.
    This means to me basically, that I am a person who is happy to just chat about ideas and shoot the breeze, be inactive and let things happen, while just concentrating on the idea of what is taking place, and guide the actions of others. BUT I am also capable of taking the reins myself. I can take the active role, do and accomplish things myself, but I do this in a strained, negative unhappy manner, always only out of necessity, if the situation demands. Thus compliance signifies a person who would rather just stand back and let things happen, but will act if it is required. This kind of mentality creates people who 'value' action highly (by which I mean that the 'price' for taking action is 'high'), would rather that others did it for them, but will do it themselves on occasion. Actions and effective work is considered a necessity, unavoidable, and people who seek to avoid work completely get shunned easily. Meanwhile good ideas are valued as a luxury, something refreshing, wondrous, profitable.

    The opposite of this is the obstinate people, who of course treat meaningful labour as a luxury and important and correct ideas as a necessity.

    So. When interacting... If I want a compliant person to feel good, I shoot the breeze, when I want an obstinate person to feel good, I talk specifics. When I need concrete help with something, I find an obstinate person who is interested in the issue. When I want to figure shit out and ponder, I talk to compliants. Now all these things can be done by either a concentrated sensor OR a concentrated intuiter so when available, one might choose such instead. BUT what is really important is that when faced with a person who is recognizably compliant or obstinate, they will not work like their opposite. A compliant person will NOT be happy to do things for you (while they may so claim) and an obstinate person will NOT happily change their ideas.

    In this sense the dichotomy is a rather obvious one and one with practical importance. Reinin's original description is close, but not one that I would personally use.

    ...

    Naturally, emotion-creating and graveness can be extrapolated from above.

    I am grave because my intuition is narrative whilst my sensoric actions are taciturn. The meaning is I have a firm grasp of concepts but I struggle to apply them. The result is a feeling that while I know the importance of things, I personally am clumsy at changing things. This causes a situation of ideals quickly falling into place, whilst actions follow hesitantly. Meanwhile there is great creativity in the field of applied actions of the ideas going on. A flurry of practical discoveries, while the mental, ideal area is sort of calcified, stagnant (but still functional, capable and effective). For example in the matters of socionics, I am completely firm in my grasp of theory, I know precisely why people of certain types work as they do and have a good grasp of how they interact. Yet I hesitate in applying the knowledge to individuals and type far fewer people than I ought to for maximum experience and development of skill.

    The opposite would of course be true for merry people.
    Thus if I am looking for someone interested in starting projects of engineering, business-life or any applied science or meaningful human activity backed by a strong mental core, I would look for a 'grave' sort of fellow. Meanwhile if I was looking to find capable individuals with proven practical ability and agile minds interested in revolutionary projects or theoretical breakthroughs, I would look for the merry sort of people.

    And thirdly emotion-creation.
    The interim-point between 'project' sensory action and intuitive 'results'. Basicly these are people who pour themselves into their actions, while sometimes taking a step back and pondering about their results. Basically this manifests with myself in the form that I am quite open to intrusions and all sort of hoopla happening around me when I'm thinking and pondering and creating ideas but when I work I want no intrusions and I ignore anyone who tries to interject. Why is this emotion-creation then? Well, basically emotion-creators show by action what makes them tick, if we talk the talk we give our all to walking the walk. So our 'passions' manifest in our actions.

    The opposite is the creation-creators who get carried away by ideas and theoretical creations and do sensory actions only as much as they decidedly need to. They are 'creation-creators' because they get carried away by theory but still are functional in mundane tasks and as such are concrete representations of these abstract creations. So while they may seem odd or mad to an outsider, they are still healthy and capable of normal lives.

    Also of course
    Resolute = narrative-thinging + taciturn-feeling (judicious vice versa)
    Carefree = Positive-thinking + negative-feeling (Careless vice versa)
    Strategic = Result-thinking + process-feeling (tactical vice versa)

    If one continues to believe that type doesn't change, one might at least recognize people who act like this in one's daily life and see this as an explanation thereof.
    For me, of course, the matter is much simpler.
    Hope it was good for you.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    I am certainly intrigued by your writing here, although it will probably take me a few re-reads and a lot of observation in real life to really see what you're getting at.

    One small complaint that I have about the post is that it doesn't focus on the one thing that makes the "obscure" large cycle dichotomies useful (if they really exist and work): the way each ascribes common traits to a pair of types that are in a conventional regard opposites. For example: Emotivism links xxTj types to xxFp types by describing what they have in common. I get the impression that your post is more of an account of traits that are unique to xxTj types than one of how these unexpected common traits can help us understand the link between Te types and various other type groups. In other words, a lot of times you mention Emotivism, you could probably have replaced it with xxTj and have been just as right about everything you said.

    The above is probably only a very theoretical complaint... The practice of using descriptions of Emotivism to understand xxTj better is something I do see a lot of promise in, but in as far as Emotivism really tries to describe common traits between things as far apart as xxTj and xxFp, you just have to wonder if such a thing is possible at all (but again this complaint is really about the "purity" of the approach, not whether it can in certain circumstances work out or not).

    And if it was ever unclear, I do use Merry/Serious and Reasonable/Resolute extensively. You description of the difference between Merry and Serious was very easy for me to relate to.

    If one continues to believe that type doesn't change, one might at least recognize people who act like this in one's daily life and see this as an explanation thereof.
    On that topic: I'd say I believe in a kind of semi-stable type change where the type of a person progresses along the quadra spectrum relative to a "field of investigation" or "environment" only. A lot of people call me a very strongly Judging subtype on this forum, some even calling me ISTj, but in a lot of other places I am more hessistant and uninvested. I would call INTj my "source type" in the sense that it is the type I find it easiest to, at any point, regress back to. I think that all ideas and plans I propone, no matter how concrete, have an INTj thought backing them up somewhere down the road. I don't recall ever having regressed to an INFj-ish state and don't think I ever will.

    And if I may ask one last thing: I remember you making certain remarks about Taciturn/Narrator being about flow vs. interruptions at some point. How does this work in types that are taciturn, yet process? Isn't process also a state of being focussed? How should I imagine a state that is both focussed and undergoing interruptions?

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat
    And if I may ask one last thing: I remember you making certain remarks about Taciturn/Narrator being about flow vs. interruptions at some point. How does this work in types that are taciturn, yet process? Isn't process also a state of being focussed? How should I imagine a state that is both focussed and undergoing interruptions?

    as for process-taciturn-negative:

    A burning question, unfinished business, something that desperately needs resolution.
    Once I have decided on doing something, I "MUST" finish it (hence the caveats in many threads I start, that I am not "deciding" on doing something, that I'm doing them only as diversionary projects that I will allow myself to abandon. It is the Rubik's complex of Dr House. While EP-types like to fiddle with riddles and get excited by them, we tend to get inflamed by them, we have to solve them. While IJ-types tend to ponder the holistic question, twist it around and figure it out, we punch through one particular aspect of the question with sheer effort. One way or another. We HAVE to understand. When I read a book, I almost always skip pages to read the final resolution. And so on. One may not know the way. One may need to restart time and again, but one shall finish the job.
    It is this instinct of expending enormous amounts of energy on unfinished and uncertain projects which gives the impression that us EJs are workhorses. It is also the need to get rid of a problem in other ways, to destroy a phenomenon completely, either by conquering a weakness in ourselves (as when I conquered my fear of blood to become a surgeon) or when ****** decided to rid Germany of its own problems.

    As for process-taciturn-positive

    It is the falling in love with a phenomenon, toying with it, probing it yet unwillingness to ever actually find out anything about it.

    It is for the ENTp the constant stream of intellectual questions that is meant to prove how uncertain everything is and to denude the true ignorance of people. It is asking questions and spreading disharmony for the sheer sake of the matter itself, to overpower and charm others with the sheer energy and whimsy. It is charming and draws others to its orbit and it is the secret of the EP's ability to make others follow them. Because the action is purposefully pointless, ineffective yet charming, people become drawn to this activity because they don't see it as dangerous, but rather as simply enjoyable. To the ESFp it seems to be a stream of helpful and enjoyable attempts, where the methods are choosen not for their likely effectivity but the enjoyment value of the action itself. Thus my ex-wife tried to reconquer me by baking me cakes despite my avowed attempt to stay slim, more for the point that she wanted to bake and eat cake herself.

    Furthermore, to the EP's this taciturn process is democratic, it seizes on observable issues and tries to use that to cause a 'social' circumstance. It is mainly a social tool.

    To the EJ's the process is aristocratic and what could be easily called antisocial. It is accepting a social situation and divesting of it by changing something palpable. A sort of 'put up or shut up' thing.

    ...

    One more example.

    When I was living my life with Fe + Ni, I felt supremely powerless in all things, but there was a certain ... passion in me nevertheless. It proved to occasionally be a way of achieving things in and of itself. Once I ended up on a course that I actually shouldn't have even been taking in the first place. At that point of life I was way more interested in politics than my studies and had done none of the preparatory work for the course. I half slept through the course itself (once I found out that it was actually supposed to be an optional course). This obviously annoyed the lecturer who decided to upstage me with a particularly tricky question on the source material and I failed naturally. But I got pissed off at the situation. For the rest of the course I decided to just stare at the lecturer with all the hatred in the world. He actually stopped the course and gave the podium to an assistant lecturer, asked me to come to a different room with him. We talked a couple of sentences (he was extremely apologetic, but I don't remember the content) and he gave me a passing grade on the course and let me go early. I was surprised, to say the least. But that was an important lesson. It's possible to intimidate people by sheer show of willpower and some people just fold when subjected to it (I have a faint memory the fellow acted like he could have been an ENTp-Ne). So anyway, now there's this useless 'passing' grade in my diploma for some course that I didn't need and which only taught me this. Weird. But to reiterate once more, it is possible to achieve things by sheer effort, even despite possessing no tools oneself and from an inherently weak social position and even despite being utterly clueless as to what one is doing.
    (I've used the barrage of negativity a couple of other times later in life, but these days I feel too calm and collected. I'm not sure I could muster it anymore. These days emotions are just... not that controllable.)

    That is about what I have to say on this issue today.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    As for the rest of the previous labcoat message...

    While it is true that emotion-creating can be defined as xxTj or xxFp it is, as shown, not the only possible representation (nor in my opinion the most descriptive) of the phenomenon.
    The xxTj OR xxFp suggests that it is a combination of two different phenomena that have no similar parts except as decided by the property itself. But the alternate formula for this same issue: project-sensory + intuitive-results gives the answer itself, it shows how the quality actually arises from same properties both for xxFp types and xxTj types. I don't think I actually used in my earlier description in this thread any property that signified my description as relating to either thinking or rational despite of course that that was de facto my viewpoint.

    In mathematics I've found that things are often like this. A question can appear mysterious and unsolvable but if you reframe the question, the answer becomes immediately obvious.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    But the alternate formula for this same issue: project-sensory + intuitive-results gives the answer itself, it shows how the quality actually arises from same properties both for xxFp types and xxTj types.
    Ok, but that approach suffers from the same problem. Process Sensing and Result Intuitive are as much opposites as xxTj and xxFp are.

    The closest I get to believing these dichotomies have merit is when I think of them in terms of an anology with debates on religion. Militant atheists and religious devotees are often said to be similar to eachother. The reason is that they both have an extreme attitude towards the issue of religion. They both "care" about the religion issue with similar fanaticism.

    So, in a generalized way, these dichotomies would arise from saying that the two groups are "extreme with regard to the issue of " [insert set of properties they are opposites in]. In xxTj and xxFp's case, this would like contrasting a person who is extremely pragmatic about defining his relation with people on one hand, and a person who is defines his/hers with extreme ethical honesty on the other. The property they have in common, is the extremism towards the issue.

    Anyway, I'm very grateful for your answers. I'm afraid, however, it's going to take me some time to digest all of the material.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    Ok, but that approach suffers from the same problem. Process Sensing and Result Intuitive are as much opposites as xxTj and xxFp are.

    The closest I get to believing these dichotomies have merit is when I think of them in terms of an anology with debates on religion. Militant atheists and religious devotees are often said to be similar to eachother. The reason is that they both have an extreme attitude towards the issue of religion. They both "care" about the religion issue with similar fanaticism.

    So, in a generalized way, these dichotomies would arise from saying that the two groups are "extreme with regard to the issue of " [insert set of properties they are opposites in]. In xxTj and xxFp's case, this would like contrasting a person who is extremely pragmatic about defining his relation with people on one hand, and a person who is defines his/hers with extreme ethical honesty on the other. The property they have in common, is the extremism towards the issue.

    Anyway, I'm very grateful for your answers. I'm afraid, however, it's going to take me some time to digest all of the material.
    You are right in that there is difficulty and that the problem remains in understanding the union of two separate things but there's still a huge difference. No person can be the union of xxTj and xxFp unless the temperament can be somehow bridged and I have seen no evidence to suggest it can. But intuition and sensing DO have a uniting bridge (or several really) and that means that representations of this phenomenon are directly observable. More importantly they are actually a part of generally known culture if you know what to look for. The quality of people who will talk nice but act everything but. The quality of people appear flighty airheads but when they get into action, become highly focused and capable. The quality of ideas that are highly focused and intricate in their intellectual content but very general, sweeping and haphazard in their emotional content. But yes, spend time with it, I guess you are correct in choosing that. And don't feel pressure, feel free to make your own interpretations, as I'm sure you will anyway.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    Since we're at it:

    Obstinacy: valued F function is limiting + valued T function is empowering
    Compliance: valued T function is limiting + valued F function is empowering

    Careful: valued N function is limiting + valued S function is empowering
    Carefree: valued S function is limiting + valued N function is empowering

    Is this of any value to you, Smilingeyes? Ever thought of those in this way?

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    The most useful of those that we discussed was:

    Obstinate: Valued Limiting F, Valued Empowering T
    Compliant: Valued Empowering F, Valued Limiting T

    Obstinate is often called "interest protecting", Compliant "resource protecting".

    Empowering refers to the part of a problem that is variable, negotiable, alterable. Limiting to the part of the situation that isn't and therefore needs to be protected.

    So:

    Interest protecting = Limiting F
    Resource protecting = Limiting T

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuturututu View Post
    Since we're at it:

    Obstinacy: valued F function is limiting + valued T function is empowering
    Compliance: valued T function is limiting + valued F function is empowering

    Careful: valued N function is limiting + valued S function is empowering
    Carefree: valued S function is limiting + valued N function is empowering

    Is this of any value to you, Smilingeyes? Ever thought of those in this way?
    Actually, I hadn't. Nice work tutu. That's very good.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes View Post
    ESTj-Si - Ij-Fi.
    This is some seriously stupid Jane Austen kind of shit. ... Partners will recognize in each other the negative- taciturn aspect while interacting in an introvert, mutually empowering way. The soul-mate characteristic of this relationship appears as a sort of emerging joy of realizations. There is an abundance of niceness, helpfulness, kindness and a complete lack of wise decisions.

    Let me describe my first 'girl friend - boy friend' relationship I ever had. I was 14 or 15 or something like that and I lived an ESTj-Si kind of life at that point. I was the castout nerd due to my habit of withdrawal, excessive seriousness, booksmarts and general habit of being a spoilsport. But I had started to come into my own in certain areas so that I was actually quite skilled at quite a few things related to the environment of a school kid. Then there was this ISFj-Fi girl who moved in the area and the same class. We watched each other for a year. Then she asked me if I wanted to teach her math. Being the social nincompoop that I was, I agreed with the full intention of teaching her math, believing that was what she was really interested in. So I went to her place a few times and tried to teach her. She was a bad student but nice company. We had fun, even if she didn't really learn much. She did a paper route and I helped her do that a few times. I was enjoying the situation even if I was clueless as to what she wanted from me. I could sense that something was sort of going on, but I was afraid to really take charge since I didn't really understand the situation.

    I felt completely betrayed (once again. Not that that was anything new) but now that the girl had resolved her own situation she became all the more excited to hang out with me as well and she wanted to keep on telling me everything she could about her a-maaazing boy friend, which seemed both incomprehensible and utterly cruel to me. So I basically ran away from her, sent her a farewell card and cut all communication. That's it. I have no idea what happened to her after that.

    Basically, despite the attraction, neither partner is actually capable of giving the other what they need. In this case, neither partner really takes steps to actually approach the other one and there is a general sense of misunderstandings and tragedy.

    ...

    Next, Ej-Te - ISFj-Se
    Well, I'm glad it was not an INFj.

    When I was living my life with Fe + Ni, I felt supremely powerless in all things, but there was a certain ... passion in me nevertheless. It proved to occasionally be a way of achieving things in and of itself. Once I ended up on a course that I actually shouldn't have even been taking in the first place. At that point of life I was way more interested in politics than my studies and had done none of the preparatory work for the course. I half slept through the course itself (once I found out that it was actually supposed to be an optional course). This obviously annoyed the lecturer who decided to upstage me with a particularly tricky question on the source material and I failed naturally. But I got pissed off at the situation. For the rest of the course I decided to just stare at the lecturer with all the hatred in the world. He actually stopped the course and gave the podium to an assistant lecturer, asked me to come to a different room with him. We talked a couple of sentences (he was extremely apologetic, but I don't remember the content) and he gave me a passing grade on the course and let me go early. I was surprised, to say the least. But that was an important lesson. It's possible to intimidate people by sheer show of willpower and some people just fold when subjected to it (I have a faint memory the fellow acted like he could have been an ENTp-Ne). So anyway, now there's this useless 'passing' grade in my diploma for some course that I didn't need and which only taught me this. Weird. But to reiterate once more, it is possible to achieve things by sheer effort, even despite possessing no tools oneself and from an inherently weak social position and even despite being utterly clueless as to what one is doing.
    (I've used the barrage of negativity a couple of other times later in life, but these days I feel too calm and collected. I'm not sure I could muster it anymore. These days emotions are just... not that controllable.)

    That is about what I have to say on this issue today.
    hummmm....
    Would you choose another avatar dear, the shrugging thing with that creature is emotionally effecting me. Thank you and it's making it hard for me to read your posts.
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 04-28-2010 at 10:29 PM.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

  25. #105
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    ^LOL
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parkster View Post
    ^LOL
    Well, I can't explain my feelings, they just happen.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33
    hummmm....
    Would you choose another avatar dear, the shrugging thing with that creature is emotionally effecting me. Thank you and it's making it hard for me to read your posts.
    The shingouz is a comic character which exemplifies EJ-Te in so many ways it's really hard to beat as an avatar.

    -The focus on spreading correct information
    -The sociability and loyalty
    -The mercantile aspect, willingness to sell anything except friends
    -The free spirit and willingness to enjoy life (and lamp oil)
    -Sticking to their trade and its tools such as the ubiquitous shoulder bags.
    -The relative asceticism and great work ethics (always on the job)
    -General cuteness of those furry little snouts
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    I've been repeatedly asked for explanations of Ip-Te, their relations and psychic aspects.

    I've been just ignoring the requests so far and there's a reason to do so. It's not my psyche. I don't know it. I may only speculate on it and attempt to recount examples I've witnessed. And there aren't really that many of those examples either, Ip-Te people are someone I've been wary of most my life. Even furthermore since I'm an extrovert rational and if I tried to explain my mirror's thoughts with my own terms it might be seen as invading from their perspective and I don't really want that. So these are some good reasons to avoid the subject entirely. And because of that, I'm not sold on that it's a good project to pursue at the moment. Maybe at some point, but not now. I'd refer everyone interested to the dichotomic types article thread though. The theoretical aspects of the issue are available there.

    Reiterating: something I might get back to later.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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