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Thread: Teh Te2 Tehrad

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    Default Teh Te2 Tehrad

    Once upon a time there was a thread in which I described the socion from a Teish point of view. It had its highs and lows and it gained some measure of popularity (and "contributions" from an unnamed moron, too).

    So, I've been approached about creating a new one.

    This thread might become such.

    It would be a semi-lighthearted thread, as was the original.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    Starting with the starting point seems like a reasonable beginning.

    Te.

    A quote that I truely love and one that encompasses most of what is Te:


    Merovingian: Hmph... I am a trafficker of information, I know everything I can. The question is, do you know why you are here?
    Morpheus: We are looking for the Keymaker.
    Merovingian: Oh yes, it is true. The Keymaker, of course. But this is not a reason, this is not a `why.' The Keymaker himself, his very nature, is means, it is not an end, and so, to look for him is to be looking for a means to do... what?

    Neo: You know the answer to that question.

    Merovingian: But do you? You think you do but you do not. You are here because you were sent here, you were told to come here and you obeyed. [Laughs] It is, of course, the way of all things. You see, there is only one constant, one universal, it is the only real truth: causality. Action. Reaction. Cause and effect.

    Morpheus: Everything begins with choice.

    Merovingian: No. Wrong. Choice is an illusion, created between those with power, and those without. Look there, at that woman. My God, just look at her. Affecting everyone around her, so obvious, so bourgeois, so boring. But wait... Watch - you see, I have sent her dessert, a very special dessert. I wrote it myself. It starts so simply, each line of the program creating a new effect, just like poetry. First, a rush... heat... her heart flutters. You can see it, Neo, yes? She does not understand why - is it the wine? No. What is it then, what is the reason? And soon it does not matter, soon the why and the reason are gone, and all that matters is the feeling itself. This is the nature of the universe. We struggle against it, we fight to deny it, but it is of course pretense, it is a lie. Beneath our poised appearance, the truth is we are completely out of control. Causality. There is no escape from it, we are forever slaves to it. Our only hope, our only peace is to understand it, to understand the `why.' `Why' is what separates us from them, you from me. `Why' is the only real social power, without it you are powerless. And this is how you come to me, without `why,' without power. Another link in the chain. But fear not, since I have seen how good you are at following orders, I will tell you what to do next. Run back, and give the fortune teller this message: Her time is almost up. Now I have some real business to do, I will say adieu and goodbye.

    Neo: This isn't over.

    Merovingian: Oh yes, it is. The Keymaker is mine and I see no reason why I should give him up. No reason at all.

    Persephone: Where are you going?

    Merovingian: Please, ma chérie, I've told you, we are all victims of causality. I drink too much wine, I must take a piss. Cause and effect? Au revoir.

    .....

    And furthermore in the same series there's a bit, a quote, which continues this bit:

    Smith: Why, Mr. Anderson? Why do you do it? Why get up? Why keep fighting? Do you believe you're fighting for something? For more than your survival? Can you tell me what it is? Do you even know? Is it freedom? Or truth? Perhaps peace? Yes? No? Could it be for love? Illusions, Mr. Anderson. Vagaries of perception. The temporary constructs of a feeble human intellect trying to desperately to justify an existence that is without meaning or purpose. And all of them as artificial as the Matrix itself, although only a human mind could invent something as insipid as love. You must be able to see it, Mr. Anderson. You must know it by now. You can't win. It's pointless to keep fighting. Why, Mr. Anderson? Why? Why do you persist?!

    Neo: Because I choose to.

    ....

    That is the second part of what is Te.

    ...

    I believe it would be fair to try to open this up a bit.

    Ni, is understanding and reacting to cause and effect as it accepts the physical aggressions of the outsiders and responds to them appropriately. Te is what you do when you cease to simply react passively and naturally, when you give voice to your understanding of the situation and name things for what they are. The above speech by Merovingian is extremely aggressive and imposing. But it's not Se because all extroversion is not Se. It is Te and this is the very heart of many of this virtual society's problems, misunderstanding this that is.

    So. Let us suppose that you cease observing and start acting. By doing this you harm your ability to understand twice over. Firstly, you use less time for observing. Secondly your action introduces an element of randomness. You are used to observing a Ni system. You acting introduces Si to it. You change the rules of the game and so the situation changes. Never be suprised if you receive different results from the actors that you have spent your time observing.

    So, we come to the question, what do you do when you lose your understanding, your reason to do things. And here we come to the second part. You do whatever you choose to. And you get the consequences.

    -----

    So, my point of view is:
    Ni = Understanding
    -Te = Reason
    +Te = Choice/commitment
    Si = Whatever you get
    (From the Te point of view).

    ...

    So, what kind of a Te-person are you?

    Do you have a good grasp of Ni?
    Do you understand your situation and connection to others?
    Do you have a reason? (Are you an individual with a cause?)
    Is it a good reason?
    What do you hope to achieve through that reason?
    Are you going to act based on that reason?
    Is the price you pay too large?
    What do you do when your cause appears false?
    So look where you ended up, what are you going to do next?
    Do you have a good grasp of Si?

    ...

    Te
    The cause, the reason, your business. These are one and the same.
    It is the nature of business.
    At the end of business there's the bottom line. (But it's not in the middle of it.)

    ....

    So.

    While you understand the situation you will probably be in good humour. Your problem as well as your power is that you are a victim of circumstance, detached from what you see by lack of interaction.

    While you choose to take part, you also take power in the sense that you become a cause for new events. But by using your reason for action, you lose your reason for action.

    Whatever power you have is situational. It will either pass and morph into something else as the situation changes, or you will invest yourself into a particular situation, choose it and lose your previous self.

    You can of course go back to observation and looking for understanding. But it'll never feel like it did the first time.

    Or it can be said like this. Your power is in your intuition. Eventually it will either slip through your fingers through the passing of events. Or you can choose to use it for a cause and thereby sacrifice it.

    This cause is henceworth your business. You have invested a lot in it. Learn to become a good _caretaker_ of it.

    These are the things I have to say about being Te. Next you must ponder your relationship to others who are Te.
    Last edited by Smilingeyes; 03-19-2010 at 07:32 AM.
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    So, continuing from the above.
    So, you've got EJ temperament and have some affinity to the idea of minding your own business.

    So what do you do, when another one appears?



    That's one way of looking at it. It may be that you compete for the same resources. It may be that they're trying to take away something of what you believe is yours.

    If you are both strong in Ni and relatively weak in Te it is unlikely that you have trouble. You can generally just agree with everything each other says, cause a synergistic effect and both appear smarter than a moment ago, have a stronger effect on listeners and achieve more.

    If you are both strong in Te on the other hand, your best bet is to keep a respectful distance, while discussing things in a negotiatory way. You've got your business. They've got theirs. Mind your own business. They will understand this. But if your business conflicts with theirs, you've got a business war in your hands. Either give up immediately and detach from the conflict or make sure you win. If you give up, you've possibly lost your business. If you win, you may have caused yourself irreparable damage. So, be polite and conciliatory. Moreso, look for synergy. Look for a common target and suggest a way in which you may cooperate, if even for a while. Remember that nothing lasts forever. Things will change and you will eventually find your reason for conflict gone. Give the other person a good choice, one which is good for you as well. You are only in trouble if you can't find one and you are not significantly more capable than the other person.

    If you are both strong in Si and only somewhat strong in Te, you have a race, an amicable one, but still a race. You are racing to solve a problem. This may cause synergy or frustration. You may be involved in a repeat effort and if you lose the race, the other person gets the prize. But while you may be racing the same course, you may end up in a different goal. Even if they invent a solution, you may find another one which has its own uses. And if the solution to whatever problem you are trying to fix is not one that can be universally repeated once its solved in the singular case, you have simply both increased your problem solving skills.

    Some examples:
    Two explorers: The one who visits North pole first gets significantly more credit than the other.
    Two inventors: He may have invented a camera, but you may take his principles and design a better camera. You may steal their ideas and outdo them even if they reach the goal first.
    Two plumbers: So they can fix pipes. So can you. If you exchange ideas and watch each other work you've both become better.

    So, it's largely situational, depending on the nature of the action in which you are trying to outperform the other.

    Of course the matter is much more simple if you meet an ESTj-Si of another field entirely. Say, plumber meets mountaineer. Then what you have is amicable disinterest. (Unless you are both starved for company in which case you can share a good moment and maybe a drink.)


    ----

    Now, the asymmetric cases:

    Now, let's say that the ENTj-Ni meets an Ej-Te or an Ej-Te meets an ESTj-Si.

    On a negative note, the other person may seem to always be "close, but no cigar". There may be competition for the same resources without the immediate understanding and respect for the other that causes an undercurrent of empathy.

    In positive situations the person who is more Ni can give updates on their analysis of situations which can be useful to the more Si person. Meanwhile the Si person can give more concrete situational information to support the Ni person's estimations and vindicate their opinions/ideas/knowledge.
    Anyway, when these two start projects, the more Ni person wields more power and when these two near the finishing stages the person with more Si wields more power.

    What is important is that both participants realize their role in the sequence of action and give each other the opportunity to act in their own are of forte and credit afterwards.

    If you try to move into the other person's area of power, you will likely fail in challenging them.

    ...

    On a more trivial note, remember that
    the person who is more Ni is more carefree, positive, strategic, democratic, flowing(narrator), result-oriented
    the person who is more Si is more careful, negative, tactical, aristocratic, pausing (taciturn), process-oriented

    Do not get annoyed by these traits. They are not the other person's fault and while they may be inopportunate in your opinion, they are a reflection of the other person's situation. Don't blame them for it. (Unless you're playing a social game that is. In that case these are always great traits to malign so as to ostracize the other person).

    ...

    Now finally, the meeting between an ENTj-Ni and an ESTj-Si.

    There is a break in the chain between these two. They are almost superegos and the break in understanding is the relative lack of Te. The other person possesses situational vision, the other situational skills. Both are experts in their own area and neither one has any use or appreciation for the abilities of the other. They may achieve impressive things, but things that are largely irrelevant or in some way distasteful for the other. Only by choosing to strain themselves and by accident can they meet while benefiting a common business.

    It is important to understand that this is close, but not exactly a superego relationship. The superego relationship hangs on both partners being similar in the "small cycle cathegories" for example both ESFj and ENTj being positive, narratorial, result-oriented and democratic. Both possess a similar air around them for this reason. And this causes the typical situation of superficial attraction but problems when getting closer of the superego relationship. ENTj-Ni - ESTj-Si situation starts with the aforementioned problems, but these problems can in some situations get worked out by pushing the Te aspect of the relationship.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    Te "factoid" gone wrong:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Te "factoid" gone wrong:

    I don't like that. It almost implies Te valuers are morons who are incapable of critical thinking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Te "factoid" gone wrong:

    Well, that depends on one's point of view. Did it increase sales? Did the creator of the ad get a promotion? At least the graphics designer seems to have succeeded reasonably well.

    As for Te users being capable or incapable of criticism... Some are, some aren't.
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    Next message will (eventually and probably) be about Mirrors aka IP-Te. This is a placeholder.
    ---------------------

    That's going to have to take a pause.

    I think I need to talk about the pit of negativism that lies at the heart of being an ESTj.

    The core of being an ESTj is to be negative, taciturn, process-oriented and aristocratic.

    That basically means that you are questing for meaning, without understanding the situation. Feel utterly negative and imprisoned by a question. There is an undercurrent of enduring, of suppressing your emotions that are crying out just so you can do what you must. You don't understand your predicament but you know that you must undergo it, because you have chosen it. You carry the burden because you choose to. The choice you made, always gives you more than you bargained for.

    This is an extremely challenging state and people who are undergoing this tend to be labeled unhealthy. The state is almost pointless. It is the opposite of caring about good results.

    If there is any point to it all, is that it is a test, a crucible. If you choose to pass it and go towards being interested in Si. It will drive you. Given that the experience is a load of pointless pain, it is just about impossible to describe to others. Why would you go through such pits of negativity? Because you chose to.

    So, ok, it's quite natural to try to avoid negativity. And most people labeled as ESTj are actually strongly either ESTj-Te or ESTj-Si because hardly anyone wants to be an ESTj. The ones that are really completely ESTj are rare in comparison... and usually either exceptionally miserable, or exceptionally strong people... or both.

    Anyway, that is the end result of sticking to your choices. Suffering the consequences. And learning through it. Adapting. Possibly escaping or maybe ascending into Si.

    If you want to understand the process, study the survivor thread and survivors therein.
    Russell Hantz of Samoa Ej-Te
    Jaime Newton of Guatemal ESTj
    Rupert Boneham of Pearl Islands ESTj-Si
    I think if there is confusion, these characters ought to clarify the issue.
    Last edited by Smilingeyes; 03-20-2010 at 01:56 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes View Post
    Once upon a time there was a thread in which I described the socion from a Teish point of view. It had its highs and lows and it gained some measure of popularity (and "contributions" from an unnamed moron, too).

    So, I've been approached about creating a new one.

    This thread might become such.

    It would be a semi-lighthearted thread, as was the original.
    I just wanted say I am very excited about this.
    Ceci n'est pas une eii.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes View Post
    Once upon a time there was a thread in which I described the socion from a Teish point of view. It had its highs and lows and it gained some measure of popularity (and "contributions" from an unnamed moron, too).

    So, I've been approached about creating a new one.

    This thread might become such.

    It would be a semi-lighthearted thread, as was the original.
    YAY!

  10. #10
    Creepy-Cyclops

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes View Post
    Well, that depends on one's point of view. Did it increase sales? Did the creator of the ad get a promotion? At least the graphics designer seems to have succeeded reasonably well.

    As for Te users being capable or incapable of criticism... Some are, some aren't.
    It's more a sort of tongue in cheek thing. For instance, to say the "evidence" supports it, so it is said in the ad. Sort of a comment on the dynamic aspect of Te as in how more facts are collected then decisions and information changes - which is related to sales as one has to keep up to date with the tools to use to apply the working - the "business" solution. Purely pragmatical POV with no need for Ti dissemination or formulas

    Also, and something i've noticed, perhaps more T in general but also Te too, how it's possible with someone with strong logics to "manipulate" information in such a way to convince others that it's right. Weak logical types are more susceptable to this, probably vica versa with those of weak F. Or simply the sales guy who promotes all the benefits to clinch a sale without even thinking they would buy the product themselves.

    Anyway, just to say: not wanting to pollute your thread, it was meant as a sort of dry humoured joke, but seems to have attracted some attention! (Oh - I can delete if you would like to keep the thread clean for your own posts, it's yours after all).

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    So, back on the program.

    IP-Te.
    It's actually nine different relationships:
    ENTj-Ni - INTp-Ni
    ENTj-Ni - Ip-Te
    ENTj-Ni - ISTp-Si
    Ej-Te - INTp-Ni
    Ej-Te - Ip-Te
    Ej-Te - ISTp-Si
    ESTj-Si - INTp-Ni
    ESTj-Si - Ip-Te
    ESTj-Si - ISTp-Si

    ----

    First, let's consider the three quadratically similar relationships:
    Ni-Ni
    Te-Te
    and Si-Si

    a) There's competition for similar kind of resources (particularly social ones, be it Se, Fi or Ne)
    b) There's also competition for ego. You might express yourselves as the masters of similar kinds of challenges, yet the other one seems to know nothing of the subject, which makes the other one distasteful. They choose the worst ways to approach a problem and suggest the most distasteful ideas. The main problem though is that there is no division of labour. They are interested in the exact same part of the task as you are and they want to do it "wrong".

    One thing is that you can learn a lot from the other person. They will usually devise solutions that you never would, because the idea itself is distasteful to you. But often they work nevertheless. And you can use them too. In this way, you can use these mirror personalities to check and guard your blind spots.

    An example:
    Being an investor myself, I love reading anything by Warren Buffett. I could never replicate his investing strategy, because I find it distasteful on the gut level, but his genius still shines through and his observations are valid. What is problematic for me though is that I still can't base my own choices directly on his observations because my strategy is fundamentally different. So, I would use another example to explain what I personally believe to be the best way to face these relationships:

    The second opinion.
    Your mirror is the second opinion. You are the expert on your personal life, making your own observations and choices. If you ever waver and want to ask for advice from anyone, it should never be someone from another quadra, and neither should it be your dual or activity partner, because they don't give advice, they give support. If you just want an ego boost, ask an identical, because they will likely echo your opinion. But if you want to really make sure, that you're right, ask a mirror. If it happens that they are of the same opinion, you're likely both correct, because they arrive to the same conclusion despite a completely different point of view. But make sure it's a mirror with no conflicting personal interests on your issue.

    ... (to be possibly continued...)
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    Really interesting. I wish I was also able to articulate my observations as easily and add something (although, I see it's the delta forum, so perhaps you wished to create a personal thread); but anyway, everything you've said here matches what I have been able to witness through the veil of an...ENTj-mixed subtype, I guess.
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    I remember you writing something about Dynamic functions being characterized by reaction and absence of agency in some way (for example, in your dichotomic 2.0 descriptions). If a person acts according to the rules of an environment, I imagine they would be subject to the influence of another person that does establish the rules. Can you explain how Te is a powerful and skillful function while still being "Dynamic" in this way? Is it about being defensively capable and being able to ward off dangers and problems, or something?

    Static funtion:
    It relates to a system of though in which the environment does not change by itself but it is the people who interact with it that set the rules of what happens.

    Dynamic function:
    It relates to a system of thought in which the environment is in flow and people act according to its rules in whatever way they are able to.

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    @cyclops: Thank you for the comment. This thread, from my point of view, is something I'm writing with a particular person in mind. The general reaction to it is not that important. So, clutter away

    @labcoat: vis a vis
    " I remember you writing something about Dynamic functions being characterized by reaction and absence of agency in some way (for example, in your dichotomic 2.0 descriptions). If a person acts according to the rules of an environment, I imagine they would be subject to the influence of another person that does establish the rules. Can you explain how Te is a powerful and skillful function while still being "Dynamic" in this way? Is it about being defensively capable and being able to ward off dangers and problems, or something"

    You quote me correctly. But, Te is an extrovert function, not an introvert one, therefore it is not about skill, or understanding, or ability. It is about energy, impact, effect.

    If Ne is the impactful idea.
    Fe is the impactful communication, pledge, ethical statement.
    Se is the impactful action.
    Te is the impactful choice, intention, logical statement.

    Also, T (as is F) is a limes between action (S) and nonaction (N).
    So Fe is also a statement of "I am finished controlling physically, and will seek control of ideas.
    While Te is also a statement of "I am finished controlling ideas and will seek physical control.
    So they are also social messages that claim a social position in Ti and Fi hierarchies.

    Neither Fe nor Te respect the flow of events. They are interruptions. But neither one is a perceptive trait. Neither one directly relates to the physical world. In that sense both of them are actually directly ineffectual. They are futile attempts at an impact, except as much as people of Ti/Fi react to them.

    That's what I care to say about the subject right now.
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    Now on with the show:

    More on the INTp-Ni - ENTj-Ni relationships:

    The basic pattern is that ENTj is happy and INTp is negative. The ENTj is careless and opportunistic for profit, the INTp is careful and watchful for opportunities for criticism. The ENTj is trying to enjoy themselves while the INTp is trying to be strict with themselves. The ENTj often appears to be in a superior position to the INTp due to this, because their behaviour communicates this. INTp will sometimes appreciate this because it makes their own self-flagellation all the more effective. But often the INTp will see the ENTj as a cause of suffering or as lacking in empathy/evil. The INTp, in my experience from life as an ENTj tended to seem like a pitiful, ugly stepbrother. I mean, Ni was the greatest thing in the world in my experience, it opened the world of profit, understanding and success and rewarded me, and here was this silly critter who thought this was a reason to feel baaad. What a silly person. Yet I was also slightly scared of the INTp-Ni, because they could occasionally cut me down.

    Ip-Te -Ej-Te relations:
    Respectful. The IP-Te is unshakeable, self-assured, looking to put their personal touch on things, possessive, empowered, creative. The EJ-Te is negotiating, accepting, compliant, self-limiting. The IP is in a two-person group the more powerful one. But they do not tend to misuse this power excessively so the EJ is capable of accommodating and in my experience is capable of gaining the IP's respect. This is a kind of good neighbours relationship. Good fences make good neighbours though. Respect and this will succeed.

    ISTp-Si - ESTj-Si. I would call it almost a role reversal of the ENTj-Ni - INTp-Ni thing, but with even more intensity, because the energetic person is the intensive one in the relationship and because the tools are practical ones. Would call it quite random, with both the good and the bad moments.

    ----

    Next the chain of supervision relationships:
    INTp-Ni- EJ-Te
    Ip-Te - ESTj-Si (and the other four similar).

    Despite the minor quadratic differences these relationships are in my experience more likely to be functional than the identical quadra relationships. This being due to division of labour which allows more breathing room to the partners and also creates more synergy. What is also helpful is that the mood of the partners is more similar than that of the direct mirrors. Therefore there is more empathy.

    (to be continued, maybe...)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes
    They are futile attempts at an impact, except as much as people of Ti/Fi react to them.
    Right, in as far as the Statics react, the impact would be made in the form of Se or Ne. But what is it Te types reach by bringing about Si through their Te decisions? What should this Si be described as if not as something of impact? Is it some personally meaningful result?

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    @labcoat:
    Si is the ability to see the links between physical objects, that is it is the direct control of environment through personal physical action. It is generally thought of in terms of skill or expertise. Now after one has reached supreme skill and expertise, actually gaining good results is ridiculously easy. (issue here of course being that these skills are situation-dependant and if the situation changes...) Also, Si is of course a sort of "trade" dependent thing and thus supports the need for barter, but that works well with Te.

    Si works with the flow and it doesn't seek to disturb it, though it occasionally may. For example, a Si lawyer would rejoice in their ability to find legal loopholes, twisting the law in extraordinary ways for their own purposes, but not breaking the law. EJ-Si in particular would often be seen as amazing tricks and accomplishments. This is what is talked about when people talk about Si people practising physical tasks interminably or Ej-Si seeking to be perfect.

    Athletes that I believe to be representative of this Ej-Si triumph are Muhammed Ali and Alexander Ovechkin. Their level of understanding their trade makes impossible things look easy.

    Many Ej-Si love the reactions their skills get so much that they tend to start developing skills and tricks just for show, rather than solving real problems, and then Fe starts to enter the picture. As an example I know of a surgeon, an excellent one, who likes to actually perform surgery tricks, like when he has an audience, he may perform the surgery without looking at his hands, something which I think is just about the pinnacle of asking for trouble (stupidity), but nevertheless he can do this and still succeed in the operations. He doesn't have to do this of course, but it has substantially increased his reputation among other surgeons (in a positive way I might add). Still, I wouldn't do that even if I could. And another ESFj-doctor I know doesn't really do medicine at all but decided he likes doing literal magic tricks (stage magic). He's quite good at that (of course).

    But yeah, it's a long way from Ni (I'm just a victim of circumstance, I can't succeed in anything) to Si -daredevilry.

    Anyway, it's obvious again how Si has enabling effects to an Ej temperament whereas Te has limiting ones.
    Last edited by Smilingeyes; 03-21-2010 at 11:29 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes View Post
    @labcoat:
    Si is the ability to see the links between physical objects, that is it is the direct control of environment through personal physical action. It is generally thought of in terms of skill or expertise. Now after one has reached supreme skill and expertise, actually gaining good results is ridiculously easy. (issue here of course being that these skills are situation-dependant and if the situation changes...) Also, Si is of course a sort of "trade" dependent thing and thus supports the need for barter, but that works well with Te.
    This sounds like you're describing Se
    Si is generally associated with recognizing and influencing aesthetics and physical sensations/comfort. Se is about the ability to control and influence ones environment

    Socionics.org
    "Person, oriented to the surrounding space, to the mastery of it "
    "the sensations "

    and


    (+) - the retention of authority, insubordination, protection, defense, retaliatory attack, counterattack, hardness, settling its interests, strong-willed pressure from bottom to top, the force of will, possession; (in the first place this function in Napoleon)

    (-) assumption of power, subordination, attack, aggression, attack, initiative, persistence, exactingness, strong-willed pressure from top to bottom, the assertion of its interests due to others, overthrow, weakness, weak will, mastery. (in the first place this function in Zhukov)


    (+) pleasant sensations, comfort, convenience, harmony, beauty, attractiveness, leisure, health, weakening, a good health, pleasure, enjoyment, sensitivity; (in the first place this function in the Dumases)

    (-) discomfort, discomfort, inconvenience, disharmony, disgrace, unattractiveness, fatigue, stress, disease, poor health, suffering, pain. (in the first place this function Of [gabena])
    EII INFj
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    Marie: I think the association of Si types with skill is not something dubious from the perspective of conventional theory. Se is associated with brute-force approaches, not with careful coordination. Also, taking care of one's health is exactly the kind of task that takes awareness of the kind he describes.

    Those -/+ descriptions of Si don't make much sense anyway (discomfort, pain? what?).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes View Post
    I think I need to talk about the pit of negativism that lies at the heart of being an ESTj.

    [...]

    This is an extremely challenging state and people who are undergoing this tend to be labeled unhealthy. The state is almost pointless. It is the opposite of caring about good results.

    [...]

    So, ok, it's quite natural to try to avoid negativity. And most people labeled as ESTj are actually strongly either ESTj-Te or ESTj-Si because hardly anyone wants to be an ESTj. The ones that are really completely ESTj are rare in comparison... and usually either exceptionally miserable, or exceptionally strong people... or both.
    In lieu of putting Surviver on hold at the library, waiting weeks for it to arrive, and spending hours finding the appropriate clips, I will dare to ask you a question -

    Is there no such thing as a happy ESTj? If not, what does that mean for a dual relationship? I mean, I'll presume we can agree I'm an INFj. In theory, I'd like to end up in a long-term, stable relationship with someone who I can get along well with in such a context. Socionically-speaking, I'd assume that would be my dual, an ESTj. However, I really don't think it would be good for me to be living with someone who is in constant... whatever it is you just described.

    This doesn't make sense or seem good to me. I would appreciate any further explanation you can give me on that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes View Post
    The second opinion.
    Your mirror is the second opinion. You are the expert on your personal life, making your own observations and choices. If you ever waver and want to ask for advice from anyone, it should never be someone from another quadra, and neither should it be your dual or activity partner, because they don't give advice, they give support. If you just want an ego boost, ask an identical, because they will likely echo your opinion. But if you want to really make sure, that you're right, ask a mirror. If it happens that they are of the same opinion, you're likely both correct, because they arrive to the same conclusion despite a completely different point of view. But make sure it's a mirror with no conflicting personal interests on your issue.
    Hm, I hadn't quite thought of mirrors in that way before. It does make a lot of sense, though. Thank you for bringing that to my attention. It makes me think of my ENFp sister and friends in a new light.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
    ()


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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes
    @labcoat:
    Si is the ability to see the links between physical objects, that is it is the direct control of environment through personal physical action. It is generally thought of in terms of skill or expertise. Now after one has reached supreme skill and expertise, actually gaining good results is ridiculously easy. (issue here of course being that these skills are situation-dependant and if the situation changes...) Also, Si is of course a sort of "trade" dependent thing and thus supports the need for barter, but that works well with Te.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marie84 View Post
    This sounds like you're describing Se
    Si is generally associated with recognizing and influencing aesthetics and physical sensations/comfort. Se is about the ability to control and influence ones environment
    What you are describing is an application of Si, and is only a very specific aspect of Si. If you look closely, Si is a field or, as Smilingeyes stated, the links between physical objects--this is the generalized definition of Introverted Sensing. In order to understand what is "comfortable" for someone in a particular environment, one needs to be aware of their relationship with other objects in the environment.

    It was also stated before that:

    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes
    Si works with the flow and it doesn't seek to disturb it, though it occasionally may.
    I think what Smilingeyes meant by "control of the environment" is actually "mastery of the environment". This is done by understanding its quirks, seeing how one object interacts with the other, but not really altering it, as Se would.
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    Something I wonder: could an EJ have reached Si-type of mastery on certain tasks (say, playing a given sport), while still being on Ni-stage in everyday matters?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marie84 View Post
    This sounds like you're describing Se
    Si is generally associated with recognizing and influencing aesthetics and physical sensations/comfort. Se is about the ability to control and influence ones environment
    Control and influence are not the same thing. Influence is impact. Control is control.
    ...

    and


    (+) - the retention of authority, insubordination, protection, defense, retaliatory attack, counterattack, hardness, settling its interests, strong-willed pressure from bottom to top, the force of will, possession; (in the first place this function in Napoleon)
    (-) assumption of power, subordination, attack, aggression, attack, initiative, persistence, exactingness, strong-willed pressure from top to bottom, the assertion of its interests due to others, overthrow, weakness, weak will, mastery. (in the first place this function in Zhukov)
    [/quote]

    This list is correct. Si doesn't attack. It controls. It doesn't resist, it manipulates, dodges, thwarts and turns attacks to its own purposes. It doesn't take damage, so it doesn't need to retaliate. It doesn't give pressure, rather it prefers do everything by itself to maintain control, and to do things in a way that leaves the least possible mark (stain). (Se = Karate, Boxing / Si = Tai Chi, Ninjutsu ) (Or if you prefer Tennis, Se = Nadal, Si = Federer ... at least I suspect so)


    (+) pleasant sensations, comfort, convenience, harmony, beauty, attractiveness, leisure, health, weakening, a good health, pleasure, enjoyment, sensitivity; (in the first place this function in the Dumases)

    (-) discomfort, discomfort, inconvenience, disharmony, disgrace, unattractiveness, fatigue, stress, disease, poor health, suffering, pain. (in the first place this function Of [gabena])
    This list is idiotic. It is an extremely limited view of Si and completely sells the function short.

    All the answers you got, I agree with.

    Thank you for your comment.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    Marie: I think the association of Si types with skill is not something dubious from the perspective of conventional theory. Se is associated with brute-force approaches, not with careful coordination. Also, taking care of one's health is exactly the kind of task that takes awareness of the kind he describes.
    Sure, but direct control of environment through personal physical action? as in having a dominating influence on the environment through personal physical action?

    that just doesnt describe Si to me, does that sound like an ISFp to you? I agree with marie, it does sound more like Se. I would say Si influence on the environment is generally low, with little impact or control.

    obviously when you look at an estj this may not look like it, but looking at isfp and istp this is made much clearer. they do not, as a rule, physically dominate any environment, Si nature is to absorb its surroundings and not so much to interact, change, or exert influence to it. Not to the degree described here, anyway
    <Crispy> what subt doesnt understand is that a healthy reaction to "FUCK YOU" is and not

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    Quote Originally Posted by thePirate View Post
    Sure, but direct control of environment through personal physical action? as in having a dominating influence on the environment through personal physical action?

    that just doesnt describe Si to me, does that sound like an ISFp to you? I agree with marie, it does sound more like Se. I would say Si influence on the environment is generally low, with little impact or control.

    obviously when you look at an estj this may not look like it, but looking at isfp and istp this is made much clearer. they do not, as a rule, physically dominate any environment, Si nature is to absorb its surroundings and not so much to interact, change, or exert influence to it. Not to the degree described here, anyway
    You fail because you twist the words.
    Influence is extrovert. Influence is Se. Control is introvert. Control is Si.
    Si completely physically dominate their environment but they do it without impact, without leaving any trace or causing disturbance. They will not bother you, while controlling their own environment. It may mean that they just leave your presence, but they are controlling their own environment.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    On with the regular programming:

    More on the chain of supervision-relationships:

    The name derives of course from them being closest to the meaning of the classical supervisor-supervisee relationship. So what does this relationship mean...
    First, asymmetry. Second, capability of communication, you have to be able to pass/receive meaningful instructions/suggestions to feel that there is an obligation to answer. Three, division of labour leading to synergistic output and natural avoidance of stepping on each other's toes. The relationship has a positive feel, if the partners in the relationship have a positive feel. It has a negative feel, if not.

    Personally, as an EJ-Te, I feel supervised by both INTps and ISTps, but accept these both and I don't really feel significantly troubled by either. ISTps supervise me by showing positive results that feel more advanced than what I can achieve when I take my role of an ENTj and they enjoy life better than I do as an ESTj. Whereas INTps are more intellectually strict than I am as an ENTj and seem to promote ideas that are important enough for me to consider to take action on in my role as an ESTj. In general, these are good work relationships, one's for which I am willing to give major importance to. But I would not like to generally spend my free time with these people, they stress me out a bit.

    As for the ENTj-Ni - IP-Te relationship... I have to answer specifics from memory. Unfortunately I didn't really know that many IP-Te people back when I was Ni-based. The ones I did know... I explained my ideas to them as I would anyone. They tended to consider them deeply, understand some, misunderstand some, discard some, take some on, condemn some and use some. Usually they were a minor aggravation, but occasionally, when they found something of significant use from my ideas, they became completely fixated on what I talked about and defended me strongly. I didn't pay much attention to them and the connection tended to be random. It wasn't bad as such, but not really good, much less important, either. I laughed at them, but I tended to laugh at everybody. I don't know how others would take this.
    Basically I understand what happened as IP-Te coming on strong, ENTj-Ni checking this up, ignoring it because it wasn't Se-based and IP-Te going his own way (though sometimes claiming to go the same way as the ENTj).

    I would expect the IP-Te - ESTj-Si to work somewhat similarly, though my recent experience of this is lacking. If anyone wishes to add things regarding this, I'd be happy to hear it.
    Last edited by Smilingeyes; 03-22-2010 at 11:48 AM.
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    This is a placeholder. This message will possibly become a discussion of the remaining Te issues, that is

    the ENTj-Ni - IST-Si
    and
    ESTj-Si - INTp-Ni
    relationships.

    EDIT:
    These are relationships, that are of increasing distance. They are a mixture of conflict/and supervision tendencies. The misunderstanding of how to handle issues is almost complete. Both are sort of introvert function oriented so neither one approaches the other, so there is quite little interaction and what there is, is hardly ever fruitful. Momentarily, the partners may pretend the other is Se or Ne (whichever they are seeking) and something productive may actually happen.

    In the IP-Si -EJ-Ni partnership both are positive, strategic and careless. Both parties just enjoy themselves and in my experience tend to think of the other as a bit of an odd fellow. A happy short discussion is not unheard of. Again, respect is of utmost importance. Don't spoil the other person's fun or try to pull him/her into your way of having a good time, and you'll do fine.

    IP-Ni - EJ Si is worse. Both are tactical, careful, negative. They are capable of giving each other very many bad surprises through their manipulation of events. This relationship can degrade into real cloak & dagger shit. (Funnily enough, I have also taken part in this kind of a relationship which actually worked. We both gave each other leeway and respected each other's area of expertise. We worked separately with the same co-owned project and actually managed to pull together some good stuff. Again, the key was respect for the other when they seemed to know what they were talking about.

    Another key issue here is not trying to mix one's societies. These relations involve two people from completely different worlds. So it has to be a relationship separated from the partners' usual lives.

    On the plus side, on the rare occasion this relationship is successful, it can be a very free and rewarding relationship because neither one expects anything positive from the other, so anything positive comes as a surprise and may be highly valued.
    End edit.


    I created this placeholder to get an opportunity to also give the message to Minde that the subject she wants me to discuss is the next on my list as I will be going to the Te-Fi relationship.

    Thank you.
    Last edited by Smilingeyes; 03-22-2010 at 03:12 PM.
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    Breaking stereotypes Suz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes View Post
    The second opinion.
    Your mirror is the second opinion. You are the expert on your personal life, making your own observations and choices. If you ever waver and want to ask for advice from anyone, it should never be someone from another quadra, and neither should it be your dual or activity partner, because they don't give advice, they give support. If you just want an ego boost, ask an identical, because they will likely echo your opinion. But if you want to really make sure, that you're right, ask a mirror. If it happens that they are of the same opinion, you're likely both correct, because they arrive to the same conclusion despite a completely different point of view. But make sure it's a mirror with no conflicting personal interests on your issue.

    ... (to be possibly continued...)

    Describes my relationship with my EII sister VERY well.

    BTW, this thread is exceptionally enlightening and is doing wonders for my conceptual understanding of socionics. Thanks Smilingeyes! Keep it coming!!

    p.s. Thank you.
    Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx

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    I'm having a little trouble discerning what you see as theory vs. what your personal feelings about things are ; I feel like I'm unable to, in some parts, differentiate what things are your subjective take on the various components of socionics and what your personal or experiential modifiers on them are.

    I wonder if you could comment on that some. Maybe that's just how you intended things to be?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    I'm having a little trouble discerning what you see as theory vs. what your personal feelings about things are ; I feel like I'm unable to, in some parts, differentiate what things are your subjective take on the various components of socionics and what your personal or experiential modifiers on them are.

    I wonder if you could comment on that some. Maybe that's just how you intended things to be?
    It's a semi-relaxed thread. Little structure. Let chaos reign. So yeah, that's how I intended things to be

    EDIT: That's may give a bit of a wrong impression. I'm just writing what I feel like saying. I was asked to do so, but not given a real portfolio of particular issues to cover so I'm just talking randomly, so as to maximize the likelihood that I say at least something that interests my target person. I'm going for a scattershot effect.
    Last edited by Smilingeyes; 03-22-2010 at 10:25 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes View Post
    This list is idiotic. It is an extremely limited view of Si and completely sells the function short.
    They are just quick-worded summaries of the IE's but I don't see how it isn't accurate. I have yet to see the qualities you have attributed to Si represented in any of the Si profiles or descriptions by Socionists, though I have seen such in Se type profiles
    EII INFj
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes View Post
    It's a semi-relaxed thread. Little structure. Let chaos reign. So yeah, that's how I intended things to be

    EDIT: That's may give a bit of a wrong impression. I'm just writing what I feel like saying. I was asked to do so, but not given a real portfolio of particular issues to cover so I'm just talking randomly, so as to maximize the likelihood that I say at least something that interests my target person. I'm going for a scattershot effect.
    You sound like a nice guy.
    I wonder who the person was.

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    I've yet to disagree with Smilex on something he's said. Not that it means anything, hehe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marie84 View Post
    They are just quick-worded summaries of the IE's but I don't see how it isn't accurate. I have yet to see the qualities you have attributed to Si represented in any of the Si profiles or descriptions by Socionists, though I have seen such in Se type profiles
    I doubt you have. I think you have seen words with qualities that sound the same to you, but are in fact significantly different in nature. It seems that your experience with socionics is very limited. I suggest reading a lot more before you are so free and aggressive with your commentary. Also, what you are doing here is incidentally exactly what Maritsa is doing. I also suspect you might be trying to pick an argument with me to prove your idea of me being beta-ST. I doubt there is anything I could do or say that would actually make you change your mind about anything, so I will just ignore. Please leave me at peace and take your preconceptions and self-satisfaction somewhere else. And read a lot. Learn. And listen to Ryu in all things relating to ESTjs.

    @Ryu: I am usually kind to people who I choose to be kind to. Others *shrug*.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes View Post
    You fail because you twist the words.
    Influence is extrovert. Influence is Se. Control is introvert. Control is Si.
    Si completely physically dominate their environment but they do it without impact, without leaving any trace or causing disturbance. They will not bother you, while controlling their own environment. It may mean that they just leave your presence, but they are controlling their own environment.
    I also think it is important to differentiate between "awareness and control" (control as in managing one's own close environment and direct interaction with it) and "impact and influence" over the physical environment (which extends over to influencing other people's personal physical comfort and environment as well), which is what I think Si and Se stand for respectively.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes View Post
    I doubt you have. I think you have seen words with qualities that sound the same to you, but are in fact significantly different in nature. It seems that your experience with socionics is very limited. I suggest reading a lot more before you are so free and aggressive with your commentary. Also, what you are doing here is incidentally exactly what Maritsa is doing. I also suspect you might be trying to pick an argument with me to prove your idea of me being beta-ST. I doubt there is anything I could do or say that would actually make you change your mind about anything, so I will just ignore. Please leave me at peace and take your preconceptions and self-satisfaction somewhere else. And read a lot. Learn. And listen to Ryu in all things relating to ESTjs.

    @Ryu: I am usually kind to people who I choose to be kind to. Others *shrug*.
    I don't agree with your interpretation of Socionics, thus far, and I presume you're projecting that as a lack of understanding of classical Socionics, in which I disagree with
    Though I can understand why you're seeing my questioning of your own understanding as similar to what Maritsa is doing, and that, I suppose, is what happens when a theory is being discussed. It splinters off and people develop their own understanding, which in turn conflicts with others.

    Although I think I'm more objective than Maritsa and trying to learn and understand where you're coming from, rather than enforce a typing on you based on my own conception of what I want the IE's to mean

    and for the record I do enjoy Ryu's commentary and advice, though I have yet to see how his own projections of himself or EII's is like your own
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    I can not help but notice that more and more people are starting to acquire the idea of Smilingeyes being an ISTj. So far there's Gilly, Expat, Rick, Marie and probably a bunch of others I'm either forgetting or being unaware of.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes View Post
    (Or if you prefer Tennis, Se = Nadal, Si = Federer ... at least I suspect so)
    Excuse moi, but how is Federer not an ISTj?

    VI?



    He does have a slight facial resemblance to ESTj musician Sting, but I wouldn't call them identicals.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parkster View Post
    I can not help but notice that more and more people are starting to acquire the idea of Smilingeyes being an ISTj. So far there's Gilly, Expat, Rick, Marie and probably a bunch of others I'm either forgetting or being unaware of.
    It's a part of the long history I and expat have together. When we fell out he started the campaign of "retype smilex". Most other people are just derivative of this original orchestrated campaign. Some people have randomly got the same idea themselves. The idea is based on a sum of misunderstandings and/or misdirections of several socionical elements. I don't take responsibility if someone chooses to subscribe to that idea. Rick originally typed me as an INFp. When we fell out he decided to join expat's crusade. I have no idea why Gilly would think me to be ISTj. The issue is boring though, and such a dead duck. It would be better to take it to another thread but of course, if you insist, it's a free world and so on.

    Anyway, blah blah blah.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    I always saw Federer as LSI.
    Heh, He's like Ryu, of Street Fighter

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