Do ESFjs have a stronger need to be accepted than do people of other types?

[tcaudilllg]

Your opinion.

[Beautiful sky]

No because they are a secure Alpha.

[Krig the Viking]

More than some other types, certainly, but I think a lot of it depends on the individual ESE's background, level of dualization, etc.

[marooned]

Actually, so far I think they do (SEIs as well, though perhaps a bit less so). So far the ESEs I am familiar with seem to have a rather serious problem with themselves in that they are not really okay with themselves and maybe due to the dynamic nature of Fe leading (Fi ignoring) seem to be unable to find themselves and run from everything they don't want to be or see themselves as. They are very sensitive to criticism to the extent that they may not even listen to it because it hurts too much to think this potentially bad thing about who they are. They then invent things about themselves, but without any consistency or even knowing what they're doing and head off on various neurotic paths away from themselves never addressing their actual feelings and issues. They lock onto something that they see as the true wisdom and then apply it to everything and repeat it constantly and craft out what they should be based upon it, while covering up the internally wounded person who feels inherently worthless. Unfortunately most people don't react very well to these sorts of presentations and so ESEs really do better if they can be around non-judgmental Alpha types so they can retain some sanity and perhaps have a chance of becoming gradually okay with themselves. Anyway, with their focus on other people, they often see others as great wonderful people who are much more valuable than they are and seek to gain the approval of these people, because having not accepted who they are they have nowhere else to turn for acceptance than other people. I think this is why LIIs would be especially helpful to them because not only will LIIs be able to accept them but they will see who/what they are clearly and see all of the patterns in their behavior clearly and so can gradually guide the ESE to seeing who they are, which is of course essential for self-acceptance.

If this sounds completely crazy or doesn't sound like the ESEs you know, that would be great. It's what I've noticed so far, and it's very possible I've just never known a "healthy" ESE, and even that ESEs through being so open and obvious just wear all of their neuroses on thier sleeves and so they look more this way than other types.

[tcaudilllg]

I was thinking about what Rick proposed about types being associated with certain overwhelming needs, particularly in conjunction with this profile of the Transformer "Bumblebee".

Who's Who in the Transformers Universe

"The least likely can be the most dangerous."

Bumblebee is the Autobots' little brother. He's small, eager and at times can be a bit of a smart-mouth. Yet for all his wisecracks, he obviously idolizes the bigger robots, especially Optimus and Prowl. He is useful as a messenger and a spy; he can go where other vehicles would not dare because he does not look threatening. And his relatively small size occasionally enables him to use routes not available to the others. More than anything, Bumblebee wants to be accepted, and this sometimes causes him to take chances he shouldn't.

Judging by his behavior, I believe Bumblebee was designed with an ESFJ personality in mind. But it's interesting in that although the designer of the character probably did not rely on MBTI when creating the design for Bumblebee, this character sketch nonetheless offers, for the experienced writer, an intuitive impression that we typology enthusiasts can easily evaluate as ESFJ! I believe this must be because the writer has had experience with ESFJs in the past, and learned to correlate their desire to be accepted with certain other traits, which intuitively lend to a decidedly ESFJ impression.

[pinkcanary]

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[pinkcanary]

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[jewels]

yes they do. In an Fe way anyway. Underneath that though, they can be quite sassy and independent and I don't think care all that much. But they need to sort of initially fulfill the Fe first, and then the sassy comes out.

So I'd complain to my bf like this: "Did you eat all of my yogurts? I really wanted to eat one!! I'm bummed."

My ESFj friend. "So are you enjoying that yogurt? hmm. uh huh." 10 minutes later "So my aunt said blah blah (unrelated stuff." An hour later "So, this is kind of hard to say. But, please never again eat all of my yogurt! I have no yogurt left and have to make my lunch tomorrow with nothing to bring! I'm very upset about this!" (it's like they don't want to be as direct because they're afraid people won't like them).

ESFjs sometimes criticize me for being too blunt or upfront w/ guys, usually my bf at the time. They'll say the same thing, but with more Fe candy coating, or they'll wait for a better time.

[tcaudilllg]

I'm pretty sure that alpha Fe IS acceptance: the actual state of having been accepted or rejected, and/or the act of acceptance or rejection of another. It's anchored on notions of equality (gamma Fi) between the acceptee and the acceptor, and is sought after on basis of the emotions (beta Fe) of the acceptee towards the acceptor.

So if the base function is anchored on need, what do LIIs need? Prediction? Effectiveness? Awareness?

My ESFj friend. "So are you enjoying that yogurt? hmm. uh huh." 10 minutes later "So my aunt said blah blah (unrelated stuff." An hour later "So, this is kind of hard to say. But, please never again eat all of my yogurt! I have no yogurt left and have to make my lunch tomorrow with nothing to bring! I'm very upset about this!" (it's like they don't want to be as direct because they're afraid people won't like them).

ESFjs sometimes criticize me for being too blunt or upfront w/ guys, usually my bf at the time. They'll say the same thing, but with more Fe candy coating, or they'll wait for a better time.

Good example. Is this an experience you had yourself, or is it something you imagined?

[Beautiful sky]

They, like ESTj, don't want to be caregivers, but companions.

[UDP]

They are very focused on physically 'doing' things for the people they like / want to impress / care about.

[Beautiful sky]

They are very focused on physically 'doing' things for the people they like / want to impress / care about.

Yes and not necessarily emotionally pitty and dotting kind of care that is normally refered to as caregivers...they are more independent.

[redbaron]

They are very focused on physically 'doing' things for the people they like / want to impress / care about.

truth.

[cracka]

I'd agree with practically everything in this thread, even the Bummblebee reference...lol. Though it has a considerably negative vibe to it, almost like the need to be accepted is actually a bad thing. Is it really that bad though?

[redbaron]

I'd agree with practically everything in this thread, even the Bummblebee reference...lol. Though it has a considerably negative vibe to it, almost like the need to be accepted is actually a bad thing. Is it really that bad though?

Cracka! hi! How are you??

[cracka]

Cracka! hi! How are you??

I reckon I'm doing alright, you?

[redbaron]

I reckon I'm doing alright, you?

I'm okay. But my motorcycle ride today was AWESOME.

[Blaze]

everything to them has to be perfect including themselves, and if someone they respect says something that's wrong with them, they will take it to heart. they might try to dress better, do things better, and talk about themselves to bring themselves up. they have a strong need to be accepted, and they ARE accepted because they work so hard at it.

agree with this. are they motivated by acceptance? seems like it's perfection more than acceptance. i love esfj's though. they're just so nice, and helpful. they are old souls, the grandparents of the socion.

[Satan]

yes they do. In an Fe way anyway. Underneath that though, they can be quite sassy and independent and I don't think care all that much. But they need to sort of initially fulfill the Fe first, and then the sassy comes out.

So I'd complain to my bf like this: "Did you eat all of my yogurts? I really wanted to eat one!! I'm bummed."

My ESFj friend. "So are you enjoying that yogurt? hmm. uh huh." 10 minutes later "So my aunt said blah blah (unrelated stuff." An hour later "So, this is kind of hard to say. But, please never again eat all of my yogurt! I have no yogurt left and have to make my lunch tomorrow with nothing to bring! I'm very upset about this!" (it's like they don't want to be as direct because they're afraid people won't like them).

ESFjs sometimes criticize me for being too blunt or upfront w/ guys, usually my bf at the time. They'll say the same thing, but with more Fe candy coating, or they'll wait for a better time.

sounds fucking annoying

[Blaze]

Actually, so far I think they do (SEIs as well, though perhaps a bit less so). So far the ESEs I am familiar with seem to have a rather serious problem with themselves in that they are not really okay with themselves and maybe due to the dynamic nature of Fe leading (Fi ignoring) seem to be unable to find themselves and run from everything they don't want to be or see themselves as. They are very sensitive to criticism to the extent that they may not even listen to it because it hurts too much to think this potentially bad thing about who they are. They then invent things about themselves, but without any consistency or even knowing what they're doing and head off on various neurotic paths away from themselves never addressing their actual feelings and issues. They lock onto something that they see as the true wisdom and then apply it to everything and repeat it constantly and craft out what they should be based upon it, while covering up the internally wounded person who feels inherently worthless. Unfortunately most people don't react very well to these sorts of presentations and so ESEs really do better if they can be around non-judgmental Alpha types so they can retain some sanity and perhaps have a chance of becoming gradually okay with themselves. Anyway, with their focus on other people, they often see others as great wonderful people who are much more valuable than they are and seek to gain the approval of these people, because having not accepted who they are they have nowhere else to turn for acceptance than other people. I think this is why LIIs would be especially helpful to them because not only will LIIs be able to accept them but they will see who/what they are clearly and see all of the patterns in their behavior clearly and so can gradually guide the ESE to seeing who they are, which is of course essential for self-acceptance.

If this sounds completely crazy or doesn't sound like the ESEs you know, that would be great. It's what I've noticed so far, and it's very possible I've just never known a "healthy" ESE, and even that ESEs through being so open and obvious just wear all of their neuroses on thier sleeves and so they look more this way than other types.

holy shit you are quite the supervisor of ESE.

i guess you must be right...but i just don't think they are so bad. gosh they're just so nice to be around, for me at least!

[redbaron]

agree with this. are they motivated by acceptance? seems like it's perfection more than acceptance. i love esfj's though. they're just so nice, and helpful. they are old souls, the grandparents of the socion.

I think it's probably both.

and you are so nice, Blaze. You would love my husband.

[redbaron]

holy shit you are quite the supervisor of ESE.

i guess you must be right...but i just don't think they are so bad. gosh they're just so nice to be around, for me at least!

actually I thought Loki was ILI! (even worse... conflictor)

[Satan]

actually I thought Loki was ILI! (even worse... conflictor)

she very well could be ili

[Blaze]

actually I thought Loki was ILI! (even worse... conflictor)

oh i didn't realize, i thought she was IEI. her quote makes even more sense then. your conflict interprets only the dark side of your ego functions and ignores their strengths.

[tcaudilllg]

The way I see it, they try to make the world a more tolerant, accepting place, because then they will likely be accepted. Particularly, they try to make the world more accepting and tolerant of people who are like them.

[redbaron]

The way I see it, they try to make the world a more tolerant, accepting place, because then they will likely be accepted. Particularly, they try to make the world more accepting and tolerant of people who are like them.

hmph.

[tcaudilllg]

hmph.

Let's say that I was an ESFJ, and I had ADD. Now, people might prejudice me over this. I've got a problem with both social and personal dimensions. Now because I'm attentive to people getting rejected, I can see that I'm not the only ADD person out there having a rough time. By becoming an advocate for ADD people, I can make things easier on others and myself. I can put a human face on the disorder, and show people that ADD people can be all these other things that aren't related to being ADD.

[Blaze]

TRUE. I don't see this as a particularly negative portrayal; I see it as a portrayal of what's wrong with me. I know that's not all I am. This is a very good summation of the dark side of me, and what causes me trouble in my life.

you say that so matter-of-factly. reminds me of my daughter, "mom, everybody's got a weak point." y'all have old souls i'm telling you. she was born comfortable in her own skin. if LII and ILE are the youngest souls, SEI and ESE are the oldest of the socion.

/hijack: all deltas are middle aged. betas: half older adult, half teenage. gamma: half rising adult, half older middle adult. that's why gamma makes all the money. LOL end hijack/

[UDP]

cracka!

[Brilliand]

you say that so matter-of-factly. reminds me of my daughter, "mom, everybody's got a weak point." y'all have old souls i'm telling you. she was born comfortable in her own skin. if LII and ILE are the youngest souls, SEI and ESE are the oldest of the socion.

/hijack: all deltas are middle aged. betas: half older adult, half teenage. gamma: half rising adult, half older middle adult. that's why gamma makes all the money. LOL end hijack/

Legend has it that when you get old enough, your mind starts aging backwards.

This post supports that legend.

[RSV3]

Although I agree with a lot of what has been written so far, I think perhaps one aspect of the discussion that has been missing is the impact of the ESE's hidden agenda. Personally, I view their HA as the primary driving force behind this constant struggle (or so it feels to them) to feel like their actions and behavior are appropriate and accepted by those around them.

[RSV3]

From what I see, the need for acceptance is more true of undualized ESEs than dualized ones. The undualized ones exhibit more insecure behaviour.

That's an interesting point, one that seems to be consistent with the theory itself; however my own personal experiences haven't yielded similar results, for reasons I cannot explain.

[Blaze]

Legend has it that when you get old enough, your mind starts aging backwards.

This post supports that legend.

hahaha your cryptic mirror criticism is recognized. know that your Ti leading will crumble in its rigidity. bwhahahahaha

actually though i do have this idea about the aging of souls and how they make their way through the quadras. but i'd have to think some more and prolly open a whole thread about it.

[Blaze]

Thank you Blaze. You are lovely! To have an ENTp parent? That's all the luck!

aw, thanks. is she the lucky one though, or am i? i think it's me. my daughters are ESE and ILE. we are quite close. i figure it's payback for me having to have been raised in a delta family by my supervisor. *shudder*

[xerx]

if LII and ILE are the youngest souls, SEI and ESE are the oldest of the socion.

Can we make them younger please? This is just gonna make the whole Infantile-Caretaker thing even creepier.

[marooned]

I don't think I meant my post to be totally critical and negative, and also I'm critical of the part of me that is somewhat like this wrt self-acceptance, so that could be part of it. I still think it might be somewhat delusional of me associating some of this with ESE to begin with.

As for my type, I don't really know what it is anymore. I don't think it's Beta though anymore. I also don't see anything really at this point to indicate it would have to be Ni leading. I've been giving thought lately to Si more.

[thePirate]

I'm pretty sure that alpha Fe IS acceptance: the actual state of having been accepted or rejected, and/or the act of acceptance or rejection of another. It's anchored on notions of equality (gamma Fi) between the acceptee and the acceptor, and is sought after on basis of the emotions (beta Fe) of the acceptee towards the acceptor.

This is interesting, not to get too offtopic, but would you flesh this out a bit? Your categorizations and descriptions/explanations of Alpha Fe, Beta Fe, Gamma Fi, and Delta Fi. If its too much please PM or start a thread, very curious.

[Satan]

I don't think I meant my post to be totally critical and negative, and also I'm critical of the part of me that is somewhat like this wrt self-acceptance, so that could be part of it. I still think it might be somewhat delusional of me associating some of this with ESE to begin with.

As for my type, I don't really know what it is anymore. I don't think it's Beta though anymore. I also don't see anything really at this point to indicate it would have to be Ni leading. I've been giving thought lately to Si more.

that's it. you're estj.

[Satan]

Can we make them younger please? This is just gonna make the whole Infantile-Caretaker thing even creepier.

the truth hurts

[pinkcanary]

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