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    Default What are your thoughts and opinions of self-improvement?

    How do you guys conceive of self-improvement?

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    I find myself highly based in self-improvement, but only in the fields that I really care about (self-introspection, video games, health, Japanese, etc). How exactly do you mean by 'conceive' though?
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

    http://forum.socionix.com/
    It's pretty cool

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    By "conceive" I mean what does the term mean to you? I thought of asking something on a more specific level, like "How do you implement self-improvement" or some other synonymous question, but I decided that it would be best to step back to a more general level to first see what self-improvement even means to people of different quadras. Heck, I think most people in this world don't care much at all about self-improvement, so if I asked the more specific level question first, people would probably either not respond or say something like "I don't", "it doesn't matter", "what are you talking about?", or some other synonymous response. Myself, self-improvement is very important. It's what my life's all about. It means being the best possible version of myself that I can be.

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    For me, self-improvement is an end in itself. I constantly measure my self-worth against parameters of self-improvement. This is one reason why I'm attracted to spirituality. I'm pretty much a Zen Buddhist, though I don't practice it as well as I should.

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    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
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    To me, self-improvement is often painful but always necessary. Sometimes I think I'm ok, but inevitably something comes along that corrects that perception. And, sometimes I find myself using my perception of my perfection/imperfection as a standard for my self-worth (and then I tend to descend into depression), but when I'm being "true to myself", so to speak, I know that my worth is not bound to my actions, thankfully. Still, doing the right things, having good and right understandings, is important to me. And to keep myself doing those right things and thinking those right thoughts I always need to correct and improve myself. Or be corrected and improved, heh.

    Hm, how does that do for answering your question? (Sometimes getting the more basic and fundamental answers is harder than getting the specifics.)
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    Experience then re-formulating approach.

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    When I was very young I noticed people doing things so poorly, I wondered why or how so. But I generally kept to myself and didn't have many ambitions. The older I got the more I saw things not going very well, and the more I wondered about what I could do about it.

    It's hard to describe, but, self improvement seems more like I'm becoming who I really am supposed to be, things becoming better and more 'true', more understanding. Since I really started thinking about "who I was" as a teenager, there's been a fairly consistent conscious aspect to my self improvement or self development.

    I see self improvement, in one respect, as more directed/guided movement. As much as I think I am one thing at a time, I know ultimately it is fluid. I can trace various developments and experiences. But I think part of things are also how you actually choose to spend your own resources and thinking - I know what creates certain outputs within me... so, it's very much "what do I want to focus on improving".

    I've always been aware of this sort of game within myself - it is always there, but I do see it as a game and not as something more than that (This is related to why I think I'm E8 and not E1).

    For a while, upholding certain standards seemed important to me, but that motivation doesn't much hold anymore. I have become somewhat immune to various forms of guilt or, as Minde wrote " And, sometimes I find myself using my perception of my perfection/imperfection as a standard for my self-worth (and then I tend to descend into depression), but when I'm being "true to myself", so to speak, I know that my worth is not bound to my actions, thankfully" - I don't feel anything like that. It doesn't 'work' for me, it just creates negativity, and "feeling bad about things" tends to slow me down. So it doesn't have substantial motivational power. But i do not like it when I do things below a certain quality - the thing is, it is to my standards and nobody else's.

    I'm not particularly concerned with improving myself because it is "the right thing to do", or in one sense, even because "God says it's the right thing to do", although that isn't the full reflection of my take on spirituality. What motivates me to do better is very real, concrete things. The pain and suffering I see in other people, mostly, is what really motivates me to do things better these days. And realizing how much I actually impact people.

    I've had experiences where I've created a lot of damage. And, I seem to be able to handle damage and certain things better than others. But at the same time, I have a certain callousness about it that I don't always realize. So I've hurt people unintentionally as well as intentionally. Point being, I'm wary as to how I actually impact other people, and I do try to be somewhat aware of having a positive affect on others. I know that when I'm at my worst everyone is subject to becoming destroyed, so I try to avoid being in that situation as well.

    What really motivates me, again, is practically seeing how things impact other people. I don't want to study things in school because I want to make the world more perfect, I study them because there are situations where other people could benefit from such knowledge; there are situations where people could benefit from understanding the real moral consequences of certain actions, and how those moral consequences have real implications on the nature of someone's situation. Etc.

    And I'm particularly focused on power and how it is used. I'd "rather not have to deal with caring about power", because it seems such a foolish thing to have to deal with. And yet it is part of this world. People can use power for many reasons and in many ways - but I trust myself, at least, to try to use it in a way that doesn't create more harm and exploitation than there already was. I don't trust others to do the same. So to this end, I do train myself so I can try to deal with these things.

    I tend to have an internal struggle between a massive sense of hedonism and lust for physical things, and knowing that I have to work to provide for myself, and that, yes, if you dare to get involved in anything related to power and the people who wield it themselves, you better know your stuff and be on top of your game.


    I'm drawn to people I think will help me with becoming a better person. I like people who are openly concerned about others and the world and I enjoy associating with them. In some ways, I see myself like a Wolverine (Xmen) type creature who can endure a lot of different things, and yet can be oblivious to a lot as well, but I also need people to tell me sometimes that I am not an animal, and appeal to my 'higher nature'. I see myself as having a strange relationship to the delta NFs because I tend to be shifting towards the "functional embodiment" of their ideals.

    Sometimes I can get so caught up in the pursuit of or implementation of or enjoyment of certain things that I become isolated from 'ideals', and it is useful to have reminders about them. I have 'struggles' with certain kinds of motivation, particularly moral or ethical motivation, so I tend to need some kind of outside influence. I think because I'm an extratim, I have to see a 'need' for it or be around people who 'prefer things to be a certain way', and thereby because of that, those values can start to have meaning and significance. But then, once I really see the value of something and decide it to be that way for myself, that something is actually a good and reasonable way to go about something, I tend to be fairly unmovable from that stance, and will maintain it far beyond any external factors. Examples of this would be: having a disposition towards international affairs (no one in my family does), certain elements of relating to women (such as loyalty and generally trying to encourage people to find/be in positive relationships), certain eating/food preferences, certain cultural sensitivities/dispositions, and so on.

    What motivates me most these days is doing things so I can help other people, especially those less fortunate than I am. I have a very comfortable life here on earth as an American in a middle class family. I can do more than get by. But as much as I drown myself in indulgence and hedonism, I seem to be unable to block other people out of my life, and the sufferings they endure. I simply 'cannot avoid' or 'cannot run away' from certain things. I know I'm ultimately more happy when I am operating in a way that is being beneficial in a more complete way; seeing things that don't work well tend to displease me... and I feel a sense of responsibility as well because I honestly seem to be able to grasp certain things better than others, especially how things "work" and "function" to produce practical results. I've also been learning that there is a lot that I don't know, or forget, or don't properly value... and although I don't exactly enjoy being criticized, if you can show me that I'm doing something poorly or how it's affecting others in a negative way, I will listen. "Beneficial in a more complete way".

    And also, to those lucky enough to move towards my inner circle, I am highly motivated to make certain people feel good. I really enjoy doing nice things for people, and there is slight motivation to be able to provide nice things for people I like. And I sort of automatically try to understand what kind of things people like. I cannot particularly change my preferences, but, in so much as what I like, if I can share it or develop my preferences to suite theirs, I will.



    I've basically found some things in my life that are fairly solid in terms of values, interests, and abilities, so my main 'interest' seems to be pursuing things things and getting better at them. I've always seen myself as getting better at something. So that's basically just what I do with my life and time, although of course I do plenty of enjoying as well. but even leisure activities, like games, or socionics, or discussing relationships/women, or dancing, tend to lead me to thinking about how i can do whatever it is better.
    Last edited by UDP; 03-15-2010 at 06:59 PM.

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    Sinning less or becoming more like one's dual.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
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    I realize that my former reply doesn't really answer the question. I won't delete it, though, because it's still semi-relevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    Sinning less or becoming more like one's dual.
    Hm, that's a very succinct answer. I like it - big truth(s) encapsulated in small maxim. Though I might add that self-improvement also can involve growth in other areas, like skills and knowledge (even where one is already strong) and just general well-being.
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    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    Hm, that's a very succinct answer. I like it - big truth(s) encapsulated in small maxim. Though I might add that self-improvement also can involve growth in other areas, like skills and knowledge (even where one is already strong) and just general well-being.
    Do you like Thomas Edison's sayings?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    Do you like Thomas Edison's sayings?
    I don't know any of his off the top of my head, so I couldn't say.
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    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    It seems I meant Benjamin Franlkin..
    You probably heard them before...
    ""Early to bed, early to rise, makes a man healthy, wealthy and wise.""

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    Okay, see this is the reason why I wonder how many EII's there are really on this forum; I am an EII and I first seek to understand what you're question, then I answer it.

    For example:

    What do you mean by conceive?
    Is it to define what self-improvement means to me?
    Or is it to question how self-improvement is manifest in me?
    Or is it how I seek to improve my self?

    Conceive is not the right verb; it's as bad as asking..

    How do you ride self-improvement?
    Or
    How do you shoot self-improvement?

    Are you asking...

    What is my personal strategy for self-improvement?
    How would I improve my self?
    If I had choices to improve upon myself of five, what would I choose?

    What are you asking?
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 03-15-2010 at 09:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    What do you mean by conceive?
    Is it to define what self-improvement means to me?
    Or is it to question how self-improvement is manifest in me?
    Or is it how I seek to improve my self?

    Conceive is not the right verb; it's as bad as asking..

    How do you ride self-improvement?
    Or
    How do you shoot self-improvement?

    Are you asking...

    What is my personal strategy for self-improvement?
    How would I improve my self?
    If I had choices to improve upon myself of five, what would I choose?

    What are you asking?
    Those are good questions.


    @ Ryu - Some of his sayings are alright. I'm not a devoted follower or anything, though.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
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    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctures View Post
    I find myself highly based in self-improvement, but only in the fields that I really care about (self-introspection, video games, health, Japanese, etc). How exactly do you mean by 'conceive' though?
    Thanks, this is the first time you see eye to eye...what a struggle it was to get here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    Okay, see this is the reason why I wonder how many EII's there are really on this forum; I am an EII and I first seek to understand what you're question, then I answer it.

    For example:

    What do you mean by conceive?
    Is it to define what self-improvement means to me?
    Or is it to question how self-improvement is manifest in me?
    Or is it how I seek to improve my self?

    Conceive is not the right verb; it's as bad as asking..

    How do you ride self-improvement?
    Or
    How do you shoot self-improvement?

    Are you asking...

    What is my personal strategy for self-improvement?
    How would I improve my self?
    If I had choices to improve upon myself of five, what would I choose?

    What are you asking?
    Why do we need to go into such detail?.. He's just asking what it means to you.

    Well, to me, self-improvement is learning about life and knowing how to deal with it. My goal is to become stronger in both mind and body in time to overcome difficulties, so that I can live my idealized life. My priority is the mind though, since it's what leads to action. Self-improvement is reaching closer to this surreal body and mind experience, where I'm able to understand everything, or at least to a level that doesn't affect my emotional state.

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    Okay, so self-improvement means taking care of my health.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobo View Post
    Why do we need to go into such detail?.. He's just asking what it means to you.

    Well, to me, self-improvement is learning about life and knowing how to deal with it. My goal is to become stronger in both mind and body in time to overcome difficulties, so that I can live my idealized life. My priority is the mind though, since it's what leads to action. Self-improvement is reaching closer to this surreal body and mind experience, where I'm able to understand everything, or at least to a level that doesn't affect my emotional state.
    EII is all about detail and depth of perception; I don't get you, how are you EII?
    I must know what is asked of me in order to answer because I wouldn't want to be untruthful; so, how can I if I don't know what's being asked of me?
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 03-15-2010 at 10:45 PM.

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    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal. In the past, I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal, where as I've gotten older I've realized that the real and ideal have to meet in the middle. I also tend to be very independent in my implementation of principles and in my life in general. My thinking side is dominent and takes my values as determined by my inferior feeling said and seeks to apply them. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming ffrom"...which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasputin View Post
    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal. In the past, I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal, where as I've gotten older I've realized that the real and ideal have to meet in the middle. I also tend to be very independent in my implementation of principles and in my life in general. My thinking side is dominent and takes my values as determined by my inferior feeling said and seeks to apply them. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming ffrom"...which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification.
    Please VI; I am wondering if you really are ENTp now; that would be great to have here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasputin View Post
    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal. In the past, I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal, where as I've gotten older I've realized that the real and ideal have to meet in the middle. I also tend to be very independent in my implementation of principles and in my life in general. My thinking side is dominent and takes my values as determined by my inferior feeling said and seeks to apply them. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming ffrom"...which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification.
    Sounds like a 1w9 to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    Please VI; I am wondering if you really are ENTp now; that would be great to have here.
    Doesn't sound like that to me.
    I think you're persistence about asking for things like that is a bit of a turn off, not that you really care to understand such.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    Doesn't sound like that to me.
    I think you're persistence about asking for things like that is a bit of a turn off, not that you really care to understand such.
    He is either ISTj or ESTj

    He is the only one here trying to make a system of socionics; are you?
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 03-16-2010 at 01:51 AM.

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    I'm waiting for my Royale w Cheese.
    Unless you've made brownies, perhaps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    I'm waiting for my Royale w Cheese.
    Unless you've made brownies, perhaps.
    If you're speaking to me, then why don't you address me?
    And for the matter, we're very intelligent, that isn't all we're made for.

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    Brownies will improve your health. They are tasty and make you feel good improved mood leads to healthy mind which leads to healthy body.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Brownies will improve your health. They are tasty and make you feel good improved mood leads to healthy mind which leads to healthy body.
    I like the sound of that!
    Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    If you're speaking to me, then why don't you address me?
    And for the matter, we're very intelligent, that isn't all we're made for.
    It's a bit like a theatrical performance where one of the actors speaks broadly, while facing the crowd. You aren't directly being addressed but it slightly referring to you.

    I know EIIs can do more than make brownies. I just tend to enjoy when they do. Do you have a problem with that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    EII is all about detail and depth of perception; I don't get you, how are you EII?
    I must know what is asked of me in order to answer because I wouldn't want to be untruthful; so, how can I if I don't know what's being asked of me?
    You always doubt my type... Why can't you accept that I'm INFj? You always doubt my type whenever I say something you don't agree with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobo View Post
    You always doubt my type... Why can't you accept that I'm INFj? You always doubt my type whenever I say something you don't agree with.
    VI - is that too hard for you to do?
    Rick's system has produced a lot of self typed shams...I recognize in VI only.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    VI - is that too hard for you to do?
    Rick's system has produced a lot of self typed shams...I recognize in VI only.
    I don't use Rick's system, and don't even know what that means. The point is, I'm EII... Deal with it sista .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobo View Post
    I don't use Rick's system, and don't even know what that means. The point is, I'm EII... Deal with it sista .
    You are scared. I don't care how you type yourself. That's just your opinion of you...and not that of the world's. And, you are not confident.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    You are scared. I don't care how you type yourself. That's just your opinion of you...and not that of the world's.
    haha, well, I also don't care how you are going to type me. As for the "world," no one has argued my type in all the time I've been here.

    Where's Rasputin? Did he get tired of the forum already? lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobo View Post
    haha, well, I also don't care how you are going to type me. As for the "world," no one has argued my type in all the time I've been here.

    Where's Rasputin? Did he get tired of the forum already? lol.
    You care plenty, and this is why you won't VI.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    You care plenty, and this is why you won't VI.
    Siempre cuando te digo algo, es como si no entiendes lo que te estoy diciendo. Respondes de tal manera que me pregunto si es un problema de comunicaci'on debido a que no somos originalmente de un pais anglosaj'on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobo View Post
    Siempre cuando te digo algo, es como si no entiendes lo que te estoy diciendo. Respondes de tal manera que me pregunto si es un problema de comunicaci'on debido a que no somos originalmente de un pais anglosaj'on.
    What is this with the foreign language between you and other types on this forum; why can't you write in English; you don't see me doing that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    What is this with the foreign language between you and other types on this forum; why can't you write in English; you don't see me doing that.
    I'm making a point... The same way you don't understand what I wrote, it's the same with you sometimes. I write something and you respond in a way that doesn't seem to relate with what I just said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobo View Post
    I'm making a point... The same way you don't understand what I wrote, it's the same with you sometimes. I write something and you respond in a way that doesn't seem to relate with what I just said.
    Because you and I are not the same type ...YOU SEE??????????????
    THAT IS WHAT I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO TELL YOU IN CLEAR ENGLISH.

    You are most likely ISTp

    If you were, then there would be instant cooperation between us, a symbiotic chemistry...do you not understand those things either?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    Because you and I are not the same type ...YOU SEE??????????????
    THAT IS WHAT I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO TELL YOU IN CLEAR ENGLISH.
    No, it doesn't have to do with type - it has to do with the willingness (and perhaps ability?) to listen to and comprehend other people. I can communicate better with ENFps, with ESFjs, with ESTps, with ISTps, with ISTjs, etc., better than I have been able to with you. I'm sure the same is true for Lobo.




    For the record, I've noticed this pattern in Maritsa, too. There's like this communication blockage where she won't allow certain input in, particularly if it doesn't jive with her preconceived ideas. Which is (perhaps only part of) what's making communication between her and most members of the forum so impossible and frustrating. Because not only does it mean her theories are rather incomplete (and unexplainable), but conversation on it or anything else can't happen because she's unwilling/unable to interact with the feedback and information she's getting from others. I dunno... I'm still sort of putting it together... I don't think it's particularly conscious, though, on her part. And I'm not sure how easy it would be to fix. But, yeah, she doesn't act like she's really listening, really taking other people's thoughts and words and wishes into account.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
    ()


    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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