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Thread: Differences between mirror types SLI-ISTp and LSE-ESTj

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    Default Re: ISTp/ESTj differences

    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Could somebody (Rocky, other ISTps) give a run-down of the major differences between ISTp and ESTj? What are the major give-aways that someone is one type or the other? Thanks a bunch!
    My opinion may not be very valuable anymore...but I give it a try

    ISTp
    - Live and let live attitude
    - Doesn't like to interfere with other people's business and doesn't like them to interfere with his/her business
    - Enigmatic, often silently observing
    - Only show Fe in rare bursts of anger ("icemen"/"icewomen")
    - Can show Ni (have imagination)
    - Have original sense of humor which sometimes surfaces
    - Often relaxed clothing and possibly hair-style
    - Can be sensitive to criticism
    - Clear passive and active moments (activity in "bursts")
    - Can be slow to make decisions
    - Likes to work on their own pace usually alone
    - Usually dislike hierarchies
    - Usually feels responsible only for himself/herself

    Summary: Gives introverted, sometimes aesthetic, relaxed, sporty, enigmatic impression. Usually gives same relaxed impression at work and during leisure.

    ESTj
    - Judging attitude
    - Likes to interfere with other people's business. May demand things to be done his/her way
    - Forceful/controlling (more so at work). Not necessarily loud person though.
    - Can show positive Fe especially during leisure activities
    - Never show Ni (very factual and no-nonsense)
    - Humor? What is that? Well I do know ESTj who has sense of humor but it only surfaces when he is very relaxed
    - Often conservative style clothing and hair-style
    - Often not sensitive to criticism (more likely just bluntly ignores it)
    - Pretty much always active
    - Very fast to make decisions
    - Likes to work all the time usually with other people (which they may call "pawns" )
    - Usually like hierarchies and aim to the top of the pyramid
    - Feels enormous responsibility for family, work, everything. Sometimes have illusion that nothing works if they are not there to make it work.

    Summary: Gives more or less extroverted, official, conservative, opinionated, self-confident impression. Leisure personality can be considerably more relaxed than work personality. I have to add that I know an ESTj who can sometimes go very silent and introverted. I'm not sure what causes this though. But for example in work meetings when his superiors are around he can be surprisingly submittal. I guess it is the hierarchy and respect thing. He can submit to his superiors and expects same kind of submittal from his inferiors. ISTps never submit this way. (Edit: I have to add he doesn't really submit just that he may not openly argue with them but just keeps silent.)

    I did what I could and tried to keep it short Subtypes may have effect.

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    ... I keep a notebook, so here it is...



    Goes from being self-controlled most of the time to turning reactionary and aggresive. Sharp tounge. Little emotional warmth. Believer in facts. Observer. Molds surroundings to fit them. Assigns personal quality to every thing/person. Skeptical about people talking about them. Pessimesitc about the future. Chooses words carefully. Concentrated on perticular tasks. Can spend long exhausting hours perfecting something/practicing. Personal space. Thinks that fake emotions are silly. Private about what they believe in. Gives the impression that they are always thinking about something. Can say offensive things by accident if provoked. Sensitive if others aren't welcoming of their outward expression. Interior morals and good actions are important, though these are not shown. Tend to damp enthusiam but pick up energy level when things get too low. If they are around suspecious people, they start to look exhuasted with a dissatisfied look on their face. It says, "You are all making me crazy."




    Very anti-metaphysical bullshit. Criticizes people who try and over-analyze what has been said. Hates people who are too picky with precise definitions. Skeptical of reflective thinking. Don't want to be asked to explain their thought process. Verbally aggresive if people don't understand what they are saying right away. Sarcastic and straight forward. Call people "stupid", and plays the "bullshit" card a lot. May be quiet but still active. Readily forces opinions onto others. Expects people to follow their all-too-perfect and definitive logic. Unrestrained in actions/movements. Sometimes lets time pass by. Supportative and sportsman-like in team activities. Can forget things they had to do. Can offend people with their humor. Hands-on teacher. Oddly rigid movements.
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    He doesn't use sarcasm, and even seems somewhat uncomfortable when other people do. He's patient and takes the time to explain if someone doesn't understand right away. He's also slow to criticize, and doesn't easily resort to name-calling and all that. His humor isn't offensive either.
    People often see every other type has ill tendencies they wouldn't like to have. Don't care seriously.
    ex-nameless ixtp
    *** Warning - Risk of poor communication and late response.

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    Default Alternative Approach

    In my opinion all these descriptions are highly stereotypical and often times just plain wrong. It it better to think of the types in terms of the functions, for example, people with Ne as hidden agenda and Fi as dualseeking etc. are ESTJs. Once you learn to see the types this way typing becomes much easier. Much of the analysis will inevitably be pretty hard to verbalize though so at this stage I am not of much use...
    "Arnie is strong, rightfully angry and wants to kill somebody."
    martin_g_karlsson


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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Thank you both!! Based on what you've both said, someone I thought was ESTj may possibly be ISTp. But the work thing -- well, he's gotta be ESTj after all. Ugh, this is confusing. He's definitely one of those 2 types -- probably ESTj, most of XOX's description seemed to fit, but these things in Rocky's description don't:

    "Criticizes people who try and over-analyze what has been said. Hates people who are too picky with precise definitions. Verbally aggresive if people don't understand what they are saying right away. Sarcastic. Call people "stupid", and plays the "bullshit" card a lot. Can offend people with their humor."
    There are probably differences between ESTjs. This definition makes them sound really aggressive. I would say this is like the worst case scenario. In work situation when they want things to be done they can be like this. If you are having a grill party with them they are more likely to come out as soft, caring, even funny people. And they are usually quite fair because of the strong Te. They don't play dirty tricks.

    Ok...I'm boldly trying to demonstrate difference with pics...I may not have typed these people correctly but anyways this is how the differences might manifest.

    ESTj when serious:


    ISTp when serious:


    ESTj relaxed:


    ISTp relaxed:


    The point is to see how the ESTj is almost always focused extrovertedly directing his negative and positive behavior towards other people while the ISTp is focused inwardly even when showing positive emotions.

    Now don't kill me if these are not ESTj and ISTp representatives. Try to focus on whether these pics could help see the difference between image ESTj/ISTp project. Also this gives general impression how their clothes and hair style might differ (more official / less official). Now ESTj with Si subtype and ISTp with Te subtype could be harder to tell apart.

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    Default I Disagree

    In my opinion Paavo Lipponen, whom you typed as ESTJ, is actually ISTJ.
    Maybe someone with more experience with visual identification could google some pictures of him...
    "Arnie is strong, rightfully angry and wants to kill somebody."
    martin_g_karlsson


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    Default Re: I Disagree

    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousSoul
    In my opinion Paavo Lipponen, whom you typed as ESTJ, is actually ISTJ.
    Maybe someone with more experience with visual identification could google some pictures of him...
    Well as I said don't get stuck on the correctness of VI. Instead say if you think this might be how ISTp and ESTj impressions differentiate And actually I was expecting more criticism on Kimi than on Paavo. Some people in the chat thought he might not be ISTp. Anyways I stick with the ESTj/ISTp for now

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    Default Re: I Disagree

    How about...this guy. Not sure but might be ESTj. Or another ISTj? Hard to find smiling pics...








    Here they are both:

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    Default Lipponen ISTJ!!!(?)

    Kimi certainly could be an ISTP. His behavior could fit that type and ISTPs often have a set of skills that makes them well suitable as Formula One drivers. It is just that I am personally much more familiar with our former prime minister than with Kimi Räikkönen.

    My typing of Lipponen is also largely based on his resemblance to people I know personally. There is for example none of the inner tension often characteristic of ESTJs. In my opinion many of his public statements also seem to bear witness to Ni as hidden agenda. In my opinion his writing style fits ISTJ type better than ESTJ, but this is still highly speculative. Conclusive proof is, of course, rarely available.

    By the way, it is nice to have other Finns writing here. I shall put up a post on the types of Finnish celebrities, mainly politicians who happen to intrude on our TV screens on daily basis. Maybe we actually agree on the types of some people. :wink:
    "Arnie is strong, rightfully angry and wants to kill somebody."
    martin_g_karlsson


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    Default Ollila

    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    How about...this guy. Not sure but might be ESTj. Or another ISTj? Hard to find smiling pics...
    I think now you are on the right track. The former CEO of Nokia, Jorma Ollila, is in my opinion either ESTJ or ESFJ. I know ESFJ sounds strange, but about a year ago I watched a lengthy interview of him - and well - just my subjective impression. I have been wrong before.
    "Arnie is strong, rightfully angry and wants to kill somebody."
    martin_g_karlsson


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    Default Re: Lipponen ISTJ!!!(?)

    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousSoul
    By the way, it is nice to have other Finns writing here. I shall put up a post on the types of Finnish celebrities, mainly politicians who happen to intrude on our TV screens on daily basis. Maybe we actually agree on the types of some people. :wink:
    Hehe lol. That would be nice. So..are you just thinking of doing it or are you actually going to swing that Se

    Anyways I have always somehow seen Lipponen as more ESTj and Vanhanen as more ISTj but this is mostly based on VI. I haven't focused too closely what they were actually saying just how they said it, lol.

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    [quote="XoX"]
    Quote Originally Posted by Diana

    The point is to see how the ESTj is almost always focused extrovertedly directing his negative and positive behavior towards other people while the ISTp is focused inwardly even when showing positive emotions.
    dont take this personally, but it is descriptions like this that make me say WTF? it is a picture. you cannot tell if the person is focused on something or immersed in their own thought. does no one else see the possibility that we are looking for evidence to fit into our existing thoughts? one person is smiling, the other is not. what influence does that have on "observation"?

    and i have seen krauss argue that if you took a group of people from a prestigious university(or wherever it was assumed that smart people are) those people would have all sorts of types, not just NT. and yet, socionicists look at biographical data when typing people, like where they worked, and what they did in life.
    LII
    that is what i was getting at. if there is an inescapable appropriation that is required in the act of understanding, this brings into question the validity of socionics in describing what is real, and hence stubborn contradictions that continue to plague me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mariano Rajoy
    dont take this personally, but it is descriptions like this that make me say WTF? it is a picture. you cannot tell if the person is focused on something or immersed in their own thought.
    I can tell by the look in their eyes. Räikkonen looked... well, like XoX said. As if he were partly absorbed in his own inner world. The other guy looked straight out at you. Plus, he was either SCOWLING or GRINNING, very in-your-face and out-in-the-open, while Räikkonen looked either serious or pleased - again, as if his attention were partially absorbed by something else going on inside of him.

    But perhaps different people have different ways of reading faces.

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    All the ESTj descriptions sound slightly pissed off. Or is that just me?

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    Quote Originally Posted by schrödinger's cat
    Quote Originally Posted by Mariano Rajoy
    dont take this personally, but it is descriptions like this that make me say WTF? it is a picture. you cannot tell if the person is focused on something or immersed in their own thought.
    I can tell by the look in their eyes. Räikkonen looked... well, like XoX said. As if he were partly absorbed in his own inner world. The other guy looked straight out at you. Plus, he was either SCOWLING or GRINNING, very in-your-face and out-in-the-open, while Räikkonen looked either serious or pleased - again, as if his attention were partially absorbed by something else going on inside of him.

    But perhaps different people have different ways of reading faces.
    is there a methodology to reading faces? or do you fit your observation into what you think you know?
    LII
    that is what i was getting at. if there is an inescapable appropriation that is required in the act of understanding, this brings into question the validity of socionics in describing what is real, and hence stubborn contradictions that continue to plague me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schrödinger's cat
    All the ESTj descriptions sound slightly pissed off. Or is that just me?
    I know an ESTj that scares the hell out me sometimes, he was never pissed off at me though. I still admired him though for his good qualities though.
    "Nothing happens until the pain of staying the same outweighs the pain of change."

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    is there a methodology to reading faces?
    A methodology? Good question. There must be, or I wouldn't be able to do it. The problem is that it is not a conscious and sequential process; nothing like learning how to use Excel or drive a car. It's more like how children acquire languages: you're always exposed to faces, so over time you learn to "read" them; some of the most basic skills are instinctive (recognizing the basic emotions), and then over time it all builds up and becomes more complex... but it's still a holistic and unconscious learning process, and nevertheless one that is about "real" facts in the real world. (I'm adding this because I suspect that saying "it's holistic and unconscious" sounds a bit aery-fairy.)

    or do you fit your observation into what you think you know?
    Do you mean if I saw all that because I was told that one was ISTp and the other ESTj? No*. The difference was one I saw immediately and found very clear.

    *Obviously, all of us are always influenced by what we think we know, and what we think we see is usually not what is there... but that is only the sort of white noise that accompanies all our efforts, and not what you were getting at, I think.

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    what do you mean by white noise?
    LII
    that is what i was getting at. if there is an inescapable appropriation that is required in the act of understanding, this brings into question the validity of socionics in describing what is real, and hence stubborn contradictions that continue to plague me.

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    A background noise, like the sound of a fan - something you hear but tend to ignore because it's there all the time.

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    You can *so* look at this picture



    and tell he's ISTp. That is the EXACT look my husband makes when he's deep in thought where I'm worried that he might be angry at me. And he says, "No I'm not angry, I'm just wondering how I'm going to fit the headers on the engine of my car" or something. I did a double take when I saw that. LOL

    The idea of VI seems unlikely to me as far as nose shape or something like that, but as far as expressions go I can see it.[/img]
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    i should post my pic. i look like that guy. then we could argue about my type.
    LII
    that is what i was getting at. if there is an inescapable appropriation that is required in the act of understanding, this brings into question the validity of socionics in describing what is real, and hence stubborn contradictions that continue to plague me.

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    My husband doesn't look anything like him at all except that he has that exact same expression when he's deep in thought.

    But sure, post your picture
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


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    Quote Originally Posted by schrödinger's cat
    I can tell by the look in their eyes. Räikkonen looked... well, like XoX said. As if he were partly absorbed in his own inner world. The other guy looked straight out at you. Plus, he was either SCOWLING or GRINNING, very in-your-face and out-in-the-open, while Räikkonen looked either serious or pleased - again, as if his attention were partially absorbed by something else going on inside of him.
    Exactly But thinking what CS said I can't right now think of a good way to visualize ISTj and ESTj differences. Anyways, it should be "relatively" easy to see difference between ISTp and the xSTj types.

    Oh and I was today visiting an ex-ESTj workmate. I didn't remember how anti-aggressive he really is. He is usually quite positive, very calm, very focused on the conversation and polite and relatively silent. Occasionally he throws out some rough humor and there are certain things that can piss him off in which case he can raise his voice and sound aggressive and judging but it will pass quickly. Well he is absolutely sure of being ESTj and in these cases it is really hard to convince him otherwise so I believe him

    Oh..and I think one difference between ESFj and ESTj usage of Si is focus on aesthetical/functional aspects. My ESFj wife is very concerned how to decorate home and where everything should be but is more focused on aesthetics than functionality. This ESTj guy is similar except he is very focused on functionality. Everything should be where is the most functional place for them to be. The environment around his computer and monitor are perfectly optimized so that everything is exactly where it should be so that you can work smoothly and without interruptions. Same thing with desktop. My wife is partly-functional but mostly aesthetical about the desktop looks. This ESTj guy has the folders and everything perfectly ordered for efficiency and convenience of usage. This is not just a male/female difference is it?

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    Default Woe Is Me

    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    Hehe lol. That would be nice. So..are you just thinking of doing it or are you actually going to swing that Se

    Anyways I have always somehow seen Lipponen as more ESTj and Vanhanen as more ISTj but this is mostly based on VI. I haven't focused too closely what they were actually saying just how they said it, lol.
    Actually, I am not so sure anymore... Going by visual identification alone I am starting to think Lipponen might be ESFP, his wife Paivi, looks very much like ENTJ. Jorma Ollila again could be ISTJ, and Vanhanen has always given me an INTP impression. This is my opinion, as of today, until I decide otherwise. It does get confusing - and frankly rather frustrating - when there is no way to check the correct answers. I feel just too uncertain and hesitant to go typing any celebrities at the moment.
    "Arnie is strong, rightfully angry and wants to kill somebody."
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    Default Re: Woe Is Me

    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousSoul
    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    Hehe lol. That would be nice. So..are you just thinking of doing it or are you actually going to swing that Se

    Anyways I have always somehow seen Lipponen as more ESTj and Vanhanen as more ISTj but this is mostly based on VI. I haven't focused too closely what they were actually saying just how they said it, lol.
    Actually, I am not so sure anymore... Going by visual identification alone I am starting to think Lipponen might be ESFP, his wife Paivi, looks very much like ENTJ. Jorma Ollila again could be ISTJ, and Vanhanen has always given me an INTP impression. This is my opinion, as of today, until I decide otherwise. It does get confusing - and frankly rather frustrating - when there is no way to check the correct answers. I feel just too uncertain and hesitant to go typing any celebrities at the moment.
    Heh. It is ok It is nice to hear your opinions whenever you want to give them I have been wrong so many times lately that (even though I'm not hesitant to give my opinions ) I'm starting to doubt them

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    Quote Originally Posted by schrödinger's cat
    All the ESTj descriptions sound slightly pissed off. Or is that just me?
    That's because we are, I tend to get pissed off mainly with lack of production.
    ESTJ


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    Quote Originally Posted by Light_Keeper
    Quote Originally Posted by schrödinger's cat
    All the ESTj descriptions sound slightly pissed off. Or is that just me?
    That's because we are, I tend to get pissed off mainly with lack of production.
    Woohoo! I hope you stay as ESTj. There have been some but they "changed" their type or left So you are probably the only one now. Welcome. Pissed off or not

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    Yeah, he definately sounds like an ESTj.
    , Se-sub
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kraus
    Yeah, he definately sounds like an ESTj.
    Does he sound...too much like an ESTj? I hope he is real

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    I wasn't aware that ESTJ's were so uncommon in the world. I'm assuming this deals with the forum itself or the internet, since I happen to know a few ESTJ acquaintances.
    ESTJ


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    Ja, there are a good number of ESTjs IRL, but not nearly as many on the internet. Especially not on a Socionics board.
    , Se-sub
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    Quote Originally Posted by Light_Keeper
    I wasn't are that ESTJ's were so uncommon in the world. I'm assuming this deals with the forum itself or the internet, since I happen to have a few ESTJ acquaintances.
    There is a serious lack of ESTjs and ESFjs in these kind of boards. I guess they are not that much into discussing these kind of things and like to busy themselves with real world work or hobbies. My wife is ESFj and she is always busy with work or hobbies She does read some forums and stuff but very rarely is actively involved in them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Light_Keeper
    I wasn't aware that ESTJ's were so uncommon in the world. I'm assuming this deals with the forum itself or the internet, since I happen to know a few ESTJ acquaintances.
    They are NOT uncommon!!! They're all over the place, except online.

    Hey... you should start a VI thread. I like to think I'm good at VIing ESTjs and it would be interesting to see what you look like.
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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    Default ISTp vs. ESTj

    Hello,

    I know it's not supposed to be that difficult in telling the differences between an ISTp or ESTj. But, I am still finding it a challenge to figure out someone's type after going through so many Delta threads, the Reinin dichotomies and temperament topics. It is usually not hard for me to decide whether someone is an ISTp or ESTj but not this one. So I'm looking forward to some useful pointers.

    I'll describe this person.

    He came off as proud and unfriendly when I first saw him. But it didn't take long for me to notice that he's actually a genial, considerate and helpful person. He's erudite, has an opinion on everything and generally a well-rounded individual (sports, excels at work, spirituality).

    Very gentle in speech. Modest and polite yet a bit arrogant at the same time . Patient in explaining things. Will start talking to you when both of you are alone. Gives the impression of being guarded but still wants to get to know people. Not at all that shy in initiating contacts or making small-talk. Likes to find out information about people but does not want people to figure out his motive for doing so (will ask something else to mask it). Curious to hear people's opinion of him yet is afraid of being seen through. This is painfully obvious to me...

    He walks quite fast and his movements are a little jerky.

    This is all I can think about for now.

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    Default Re: ISTp vs. ESTj

    Quote Originally Posted by stefana
    Very gentle in speech. Modest and polite yet a bit arrogant at the same time . Patient in explaining things. Will start talking to you when both of you are alone. Gives the impression of being guarded but still wants to get to know people. Not at all that shy in initiating contacts or making small-talk. Likes to find out information about people but does not want people to figure out his motive for doing so (will ask something else to mask it). Curious to hear people's opinion of him yet is afraid of being seen through. This is painfully obvious to me...

    He walks quite fast and his movements are a little jerky.
    I got a small vibe towards ESTj i highlighted a few things that made me think this. Still not sure though i know an ISTp whos pretty damn chilled out.

    Your right though, it shouldn't be too hard to differentiate between the two
    ENFp (Unsure of Subtype)

    "And the day came when the risk it took to remain closed in a bud became more painful than the risk it took to blossom." - Anaïs Nin

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    ^ Let me just call him a split-ego type for now .

    His snobbishness or what looked like it left a not so good impression on me the first time. I thought that he disliked me. Anyway to cut a long story short, I remembered loathing the entire journey back home in his car, wishing for the trip to end as soon as possible so that I don't have to be 'trapped' with this person forever. He tried making a conversation to which I responded half-heartedly (yes.. yes.. I know I was a bitch). However, another meeting with him at a gathering changed my opinion. That's when I got to see more sides of his personality.

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    I have the same problem. However, I found it easier to type ESTjs as ESTjs. And had a major problem typing my boyfriend. who's most likely ISTp.

    His snobbishness or what looked like it left a not so good impression on me the first time. I thought that he disliked me. Anyway to cut a long story short, I remembered loathing the entire journey back home in his car, wishing for the trip to end as soon as possible so that I don't have to be 'trapped' with this person forever. He tried making a conversation to which I responded half-heartedly (yes.. yes.. I know I was a bitch). However, another meeting with him at a gathering changed my opinion. That's when I got to see more sides of his personality.
    I had the same impression of my boyfriend when I just got to know him. He seemed arrogant and cold. That impression changed over time when he started talking to me more.

    I always thought he was ESTj though, because he too is not shy when initiating contacts or making small-talk, it's just that he doesn't reveal himself much.

    I'm leaning toward ISTp for your friend.
    INTp
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    A rather clear INTp-Te
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    A rather clear INTp-Te
    Ooo.. Yea. I think that's very possible.
    However, I think the description didn't tell enough.
    INTp
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    Thank you all : ). I had a talk with someone who knew him better and after hearing more details about him, I think that ESTj sensory sub-type is most likely.

    @FDG: I know several INTps closely and this guy's behaviour and the way he carries himself is different from them.

    @Mea: ESTjs have a sort of lustre or glaze in their eyes that becomes more apparent when they are talking to someone. I haven't... noticed that in ISTps yet. Oh well .

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