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Thread: Helping people type themselves

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    Jesus is the cruel sausage consentingadult's Avatar
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    Default Helping people type themselves

    Since a lot of people on this forum are helping out newbies typing themselves, and not always with success, I would like to share my approach, which I have tested in real life. The idea behind is is that you only provide information and let the person themselves decide on their type, and to avoid Forer Effect by asking specific questions or suggesting options.

    My approach is:

    1. let them read a document on quadra descriptions and let them decide by their gut feeling which quadra they're in. This document is an adapted version of the wiki quadra pages and can be downloaded here.
    2. In the next phase, I personally explain quadras in my own words, allowing the person to ask questions for further explanation. I then ask them again to decide what quadra they are in.
    3. Next I explain Rick DeLong's Type Message concept, and explain for each of the 16 types their Type Message, and also some other typical characteristics of each type. To enhance their understanding of Type Messages, I also show them a couple of videos I have prepared and ask them to evaluate which Type Message is being communicated in each video (I currently have 5 videos, alas not all of them are in English). After this stage, people typically have a good idea of their own type, although they don't know yet what that means or what it implies.
    4. I then assign them homework by sending them Wikisocion links to Filatova Type descriptions, asking them to first read the descriptions of their own quadra.


    ETA: I have also prepared a powerpoint presentation for a workshop, but so far I have only partially translated this into English.

    Hope this helps.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    My approach would be the following:

    1.) Think about Jungian dichotomies. This method is only a starting place.
    2.) Read Gulenko's type descriptions afterwards. If it doesn't fit - go back to step 1.
    3.) Read the descriptions of functions and information elements. If it doesn't fit - go back to step 1.
    4.) Type the people you know well. If most of your friends seem to be in your opposite quadra - go back to step 1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    My approach would be the following:

    1.) Think about Jungian dichotomies. This method is only a starting place.
    2.) Read Gulenko's type descriptions afterwards. If it doesn't fit - go back to step 1.
    3.) Read the descriptions of functions and information elements. If it doesn't fit - go back to step 1.
    4.) Type the people you know well. If most of your friends seem to be in your opposite quadra - go back to step 1.
    Interesting. So what is your experience with this? Does it work? I'm asking, because I personally have never been able to make good use of dichotomies, I alway ended up being unable to decide.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Creepy-Cyclops

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    I actually kinda agree with JohnDo's approach.

    I'd add:

    1. Dichotomies first, SG's turbo test is a good place to start.
    2. Type descriptions
    3. Temperaments
    4. And of course, crucially, inter-type relations

    My issue with functions is that a) in reality people who are strong in eg F are strong in both Fe and Fi, in practice they work and often blur together - they're not *as* seperated as the theory suggests. and b) considering that when we are being ourselves we are unconciously just doing stuff, so it can be hard to visualise which we conciously express when we are unconciously doing it, hence the slight issue with calling the 1st and 2nd functions "concious". I think that when we use mostly our 7th and 8th functions over our 1st and 2nd functions - we're actually more concious about it, because it generally makes us feel like we're doing something "bad".

    Although no method is foolproof, I also think that when someone digests too much that it makes it too complicated and too difficult to decide in comparison to the actual basic foundations of the theory as mentioned at the start (instead of ie am I an "aggressor", am I "serious", "aristocratic", did I just use 3rd function there for 5 mins etc)...


    @consentingadult - starting with quadra grouping, type messages - a lot of people idolise themself and want to be something they are not, despite it being rather vague also (eg suppose you have someone who is gamma brought up by betas, they'll likely start of by seeing themself as beta, also i've known betas who "idolise" the delta messages and ethos - sort of like what they'd want to be not what they are).

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    Good thread. We sould make a slogan out of the thread title and repeat it at every suitable occasion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    Interesting. So what is your experience with this? Does it work? I'm asking, because I personally have never been able to make good use of dichotomies, I alway ended up being unable to decide.
    Well, I started with an MBTI test, got INTJ as result and it was immediately clear that it was correct..

    When I started to study Socionics I asked myself if I might be INTp there. After reading type descriptions INTj seemed to be much more likely, after thinking about relationships it was absolutely obvious...

    The problem is that typing by dichotomies (like MBTI) only works for people who already know themselves quite well. If you don't know yourself well you will probably get a wrong result. Same goes for Socionics: If you know yourself well you should be able to type yourself correctly just by Jungian dichotomies...

    Unfortunately, I don't know people in RL who are interested in Socionics. Here on the internet most people seem to get at least a useful starting place by Jungian dichotomies...


    Your powerpoint presentation is quite interesting. The only bias I found: Like Rick DeLong you believe communists to be Betas. My opinion after reading and thinking very much about communism: Lenin - LII, Stalin - LSE, Trotzki - IEE, Che Guevara - LII, Fidel Castro - SEE.
    No Betas at all. You certainly know that national-socialism was a competetive Se-ideology. The ideas of communism were anti-competitive = Si = Alpha/Delta.

    Major problem:
    Nobody will want to be Beta from your presentation. That is a very big problem also on this forum which is strongly influenced by Delta-DeLong. Most socionists (Augusta, Gulenko, Reinin, Bukalov, Ganin, Lytov) are Alpha. The most influential Socionist on this forum is Delta-DeLong. That's why Betas come off as evil - and most people here (like for example Juju or ThePirate or CrazedRat) didn't want to be evil Betas first...
    Last edited by JohnDo; 03-15-2010 at 05:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    Your powerpoint presentation is quite interesting. The only bias I found: Like Rick DeLong you believe communists to be Betas. My opinion after reading and thinking very much about communism: Lenin - LII, Stalin - LSE, Trotzki - IEE, Che Guevara - LII, Fidel Castro - SEE.
    No Betas at all. You certainly know that national-socialism was a competetive Se-ideology. The ideas of communism were anti-competitive = Si = Alpha/Delta.
    I get you what you mean, but as we say in dutch, "the soup is not eaten as hot as it is served". If you hav looked carefully, you'll see that the political and religious attitudes are between quotes. In the workshop I planned, and in the one-on-one discussions I had, the idea was to explain it from a psychological POV, it is not to be taken literally. What I mean by it, is that Betas often have collectivist attitudes, but that dos not mean all betas are communists are fascists, very much like not all Alphas are socialists, not all Gammas are capitalists or Deltas or Social-Liberals (in the european sense). Same applies to the religious attitudes.

    The Poiwerpoint is merely a tool I use, but there is a lot more nuance in what I tell. Perhaps Iĺl make a video some day to clarify thse short statements.

    ETA: in my explanation of Betas, I emphasize both positive and negative aspects of all quadras. As an example: about Deltas I explain that they are very more likely to refrain from violence than e.g. Betas. But this is not aways a good thing. In my home town of Amsterdam, most Jews were deported to the Nazi camps, relatively more than other european cities with large Jewish populations, and with less trouble for the Nazis. This is, imho, bcause of the docile attitude of the Ducth, which is basically a Delta culture. Perhaps bad betas caused WWII, but itś also thanks to good Betas that it was ended.

    I recalla thread by 1981slater where he complained about SLEs. Well, SLEs and I do not get along either, but still I very much appreciate the fact that there are many of them in fire brigades.

    Hope this clarifies how I go about explaining about betas.

    PS: Stalin: LSI, Lenin: Se expression in his eyes. Have'tn tought about other types.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    1) use the 4 dichotomies, (in a way that you compare yourself with others)
    2) clubs & temperament
    3) confirmation by relationships, preferable very close distance

    I would skip information elements completely for selftyping.

    I'm neutral on type descriptions.

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    1. You start with the letter 't'. In an average qwerty keyboard it's in the second row (disregarding the possible top row of function keys), between 'r' and 'y'. You will also have to decide whether you want to capitalize it. If you prefer a capitalized version, press 'shift' key while pressing 't'. In your keyboard 'shift' key is usually at the leftside edge and it may have no symbol or it may have an arrow upwards symbol instead of the text 'shift'.
    2. Next press 'h'. Again in an average qwerty keyboard (as is assumed in every case further on) the letter is in the third row (again, assuming that possible function keys at the top of the keyboard are disregarded. This assumption will be maintained.) between 'g' and 'j'.
    3. Next press the 'e' key which will be found in the second row between 'w' and 'r'. It's good to remember this location since this key will have significant usage further on.
    4. Next press 'm'. It's in the fourth row, next to the 'n' key and usually above the wide blank 'space' key.
    5. Next press 's'. It's in the third row on the left side between 'a' and 'd'.
    6. Next press 'e' again.
    7. Next press 'l' key. It's in the third row on the right, next to 'k'.
    8. Next press 'v' key. It's in the middle of the fourth row between 'c' and 'b'.
    9. Next press 'e' key again.
    10. Now press 's' key again and you are finished.

    Next time we will practice typing 'relatives'.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes View Post
    1. You start with the letter 't'. In an average qwerty keyboard it's in the second row (disregarding the possible top row of function keys), between 'r' and 'y'. You will also have to decide whether you want to capitalize it. If you prefer a capitalized version, press 'shift' key while pressing 't'. In your keyboard 'shift' key is usually at the leftside edge and it may have no symbol or it may have an arrow upwards symbol instead of the text 'shift'.
    2. Next press 'h'. Again in an average qwerty keyboard (as is assumed in every case further on) the letter is in the third row (again, assuming that possible function keys at the top of the keyboard are disregarded. This assumption will be maintained.) between 'g' and 'j'.
    3. Next press the 'e' key which will be found in the second row between 'w' and 'r'. It's good to remember this location since this key will have significant usage further on.
    4. Next press 'm'. It's in the fourth row, next to the 'n' key and usually above the wide blank 'space' key.
    5. Next press 's'. It's in the third row on the left side between 'a' and 'd'.
    6. Next press 'e' again.
    7. Next press 'l' key. It's in the third row on the right, next to 'k'.
    8. Next press 'v' key. It's in the middle of the fourth row between 'c' and 'b'.
    9. Next press 'e' key again.
    10. Now press 's' key again and you are finished.

    Next time we will practice typing 'relatives'.
    HELP I USE DVORAK WHAT DO I DO
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

    http://forum.socionix.com/
    It's pretty cool

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctures View Post
    HELP I USE DVORAK WHAT DO I DO
    you are SO immature. . .
    Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx

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    As an SEE, when you produce endless possibilities that is use of Ne in your third spot; for me it's Ti, trying to systematize things and I can't fully use that function because Fi is my strength...so this is why SEE look like they are IEE and EII like myself look like LII. That's a bit of wisdom I can put into this thread. This is why I am struggling to show you the system in examples rather then clear diagrams.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes View Post
    1. You start with the letter 't'. In an average qwerty keyboard it's in the second row (disregarding the possible top row of function keys), between 'r' and 'y'. You will also have to decide whether you want to capitalize it. If you prefer a capitalized version, press 'shift' key while pressing 't'. In your keyboard 'shift' key is usually at the leftside edge and it may have no symbol or it may have an arrow upwards symbol instead of the text 'shift'.
    2. Next press 'h'. Again in an average qwerty keyboard (as is assumed in every case further on) the letter is in the third row (again, assuming that possible function keys at the top of the keyboard are disregarded. This assumption will be maintained.) between 'g' and 'j'.
    3. Next press the 'e' key which will be found in the second row between 'w' and 'r'. It's good to remember this location since this key will have significant usage further on.
    4. Next press 'm'. It's in the fourth row, next to the 'n' key and usually above the wide blank 'space' key.
    5. Next press 's'. It's in the third row on the left side between 'a' and 'd'.
    6. Next press 'e' again.
    7. Next press 'l' key. It's in the third row on the right, next to 'k'.
    8. Next press 'v' key. It's in the middle of the fourth row between 'c' and 'b'.
    9. Next press 'e' key again.
    10. Now press 's' key again and you are finished.

    Next time we will practice typing 'relatives'.
    you too smilingeyes . . . Thanks for the laugh though!!
    Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctures View Post
    HELP I USE DVORAK WHAT DO I DO
    hold left shift, then press the keys on keyboard that says:

    k,

    then depress left shift, and type the keys that show on a qwerty keyboard as: jdm;dp.d;

    then marvel at how you only had to press three letters not on the home row.

    then if you want to be more definite end on a dot by pressing the key labeled "e".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    @consentingadult - starting with quadra grouping, type messages - a lot of people idolise themself and want to be something they are not, despite it being rather vague also (eg suppose you have someone who is gamma brought up by betas, they'll likely start of by seeing themself as beta, also i've known betas who "idolise" the delta messages and ethos - sort of like what they'd want to be not what they are).
    I actually think the problems you are describing can manifest themselves in every typing method. I never came that far, but I was planning to also talk about issues of balance/unbalance and healthy/unhealthy. It actually already is in the powerpoint slide show, but that part is still in Dutch. One of the ideas that I want bring across, is that some people (unbalanced or unhealthy) will put too much emphasis on their super-ego functions, mostly because of expectations from the social environment, either learned in childhood and carried over into adulthood, or simply because of the social environment the individual is in. I think this will typically lead to burn-out kind of issues (whereas not getting your super-id needs met, will probably lead to symptoms of a more depressive nature).

    The problem with many Socionics test (like many other personality tests, such as used in MBTI), is that they do not contain any (or hardly any) validation questions. E.g., in the MMPI-II personality test, there are questions that try to determine if a respondent 'fakes good' (present themselves more positively than they are), 'fakes bad' (present themselves worse than they are, often of cry for help).

    I'm very much afraid that people who have bad self-awareness, will never type themselves correctly, whatever they do and regardless of how well constructed a typing method is. And even if it leads to good results, people might reject these out of sheer cognitive dissonance.

    That being said, I'm still not sure of my own type, but I mainly use Socionics to type other people anyway, so to me, there is not much of a problem.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    2.) Read Gulenko's type descriptions afterwards. If it doesn't fit - go back to step 1.
    Where I can find these? I've tried google, but can't find them.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Smilingeyes brought up an interesting question: Why do people say they "type other people"? I'm not a native speaker so I had to look up the correct German word "typisieren" in a dictionary. The dictionary says "typisieren - to typecast" whereas "to type" means "tippen / eintippen" in German.

    Question to the native speakers: Is "to type people " a bad/ambiguous/unprofessional expression? In German I would not say "Ich tippe Leute"...

    Where I can find these? I've tried google, but can't find them.
    I just mean the translations on socionics.com. I know that socionics.com is not considered an accurate site by adherents of DeLong - but I guess Gulenko's descriptions were more or less accurately translated...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes View Post
    1. You start with the letter 't'. In an average qwerty keyboard it's in the second row (disregarding the possible top row of function keys), between 'r' and 'y'. You will also have to decide whether you want to capitalize it. If you prefer a capitalized version, press 'shift' key while pressing 't'. In your keyboard 'shift' key is usually at the leftside edge and it may have no symbol or it may have an arrow upwards symbol instead of the text 'shift'.
    2. Next press 'h'. Again in an average qwerty keyboard (as is assumed in every case further on) the letter is in the third row (again, assuming that possible function keys at the top of the keyboard are disregarded. This assumption will be maintained.) between 'g' and 'j'.
    3. Next press the 'e' key which will be found in the second row between 'w' and 'r'. It's good to remember this location since this key will have significant usage further on.
    4. Next press 'm'. It's in the fourth row, next to the 'n' key and usually above the wide blank 'space' key.
    5. Next press 's'. It's in the third row on the left side between 'a' and 'd'.
    6. Next press 'e' again.
    7. Next press 'l' key. It's in the third row on the right, next to 'k'.
    8. Next press 'v' key. It's in the middle of the fourth row between 'c' and 'b'.
    9. Next press 'e' key again.
    10. Now press 's' key again and you are finished.

    Next time we will practice typing 'relatives'.
    Cute.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arctures View Post
    HELP I USE DVORAK WHAT DO I DO
    Do you really? That would be interesting.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
    ()


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