Ti types: Do you believe in or prescribe to enneagram?
Do you believe in or prescribe to enneagram?
If so, why? It has zero Ti.
If it has Ti, maybe you could explain it? It seems to me like it is just a bunch of stuff thrown together with no actual logical glue (unlike socionics which has a pretty good Ti base).
Actually, i'd be suprised if logical types in general take more than a passing interest in it (given Te types still have strong Ti).
Maybe Diane can answer she's ISTj
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Dual type(as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
I thought i'd post some thoughts, from wiki, here is (from development of enneagram):
So, it seems there are 9 personalities a person should have, because.... it fits a particular shape? Why not just use a dodecahedron or a hexagon or something? It makes no sense.Oscar Ichazo assigned what he referred to as ego fixations to each of the nine points of the enneagram figure (which in his early teachings is usually called an enneagon).
Also, if there really were 9 personalities - personality which is different from psychological type, then don't you think everyone would catch on to there being 9 people in the world?
It's maybe worth pointing out that socionics describes a process of metabolising all available information in the world, and formulates it in a way which correlates with inter-type dynamics. It's built on an actual logical structure. As it is a process of information metabolism there is also a personality which is allowed (and is) to be unique to the person.
to answer your question, no i do not believe in it. i think it's a hodge podge of observations, some of which are driven by a psychodynamic perspective, so the descriptions "sound" convincing and as though they could potentially have good face validity. but that's where it stops. to me, it's bullshit.Originally Posted by Cyclops
ILE
those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often
I find the Enneagram somewhat interesting, and it does have a logical structure - though unlike Huginn, I pay more attention to the "process Enneagram." I kinda see a resemblance, though...
1 - Moving away from instincts; under-represents them.
2 - Moving into emotions; over-represents them.
3 - In the midst of emotions; can't see clearly for lack of distance
4 - Moving away from emotions; under-represents them.
5 - Moving into the intellect; over-represents it.
6 - In the midst of the intellect; can't see clearly for lack of distance
7 - Moving away from the intellect; under-represents it.
8 - Moving into instincts; over-represents them.
9 - In the midst of the instincts; can't see clearly for lack of distance
LII-Ne
"Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
- Blair Houghton
Johari
Over and Under and Out of touch.
Positive, negative, null.
In studies there are binary and ternary systems(and other multi-logic systems), as a whole binary systems are systems of qualities and ternary systems are systems of measurements.
Common ternary and multi-valued logic systems are things like probability and databases.
The problem of enneagram is that I think it treats null values as truth values.
I think this is why 3-6-9 triad is basically pointless and also why so many people can seem like a 6 and all the path of integration and disintegration exist.
It's also why stuff like counter-phobic descriptions and the like exist.
It's could be that a counter-phobic 6 is some other E-type which is not being described, because what happens with the unknown gets slotted into the null.
Ternary systems have a lot of use in probability measurement and application as we often have to deal with the unknowns of reality in a pragmatic fashion. However as a model of reality and explanation of what exists, it is lacking.
Last edited by mu4; 03-12-2010 at 08:48 PM.
From what I've seen the structural approach to enneagram seems quite sensible and well glued.
I think the enneagram does a sort of 'best fit' style even though you might test as a little bit of everything. If this is the case, then there is a little bit of everything in everyone; the most prominent stuff is your enneagram type. This would make it impossible for people to actually recognize 'pure' types.
But yeah, I dislike the enneagram too. If you're going to produce a system to do with personality types, you may as well achieve finality like socionics does and not make it so malleable as the enneagram (or MBTI for that matter).
I don't subscribe to the enneagram for exactly the reason that it lacks structure (Ti) and verifyability (Te).
I don't subscribe to enneagram. I'm fairly sure I'm 5w6 in the system, but I don't believe there's too much evidence supporting it. Sure, that could be said of typology as a whole, but enneagram seems about as reliable as tarot.
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Well, here's me asking for some Ti and all you do is give me a big list of Te :-D I'll elaborate some more on the problem through this post.
Yep.
Would I be right in saying perhaps this ties in with the following?
ie, personal development which doesn't have anything to do with 9 specific personalities and enneagram? It's just a method of reading about stuff, "ancient knowledge". The basis is right here - no Ti, just a method of self development not related to "categorizing personality styles", so what ever followed from it is just make believe nonsense.
Can you elaborate? I think the case for it being rubbish has been made pretty well (seriously, would be interested to see it otherwise).
Bingo imo too. tbh I think that anyone who thinks enneagram is a good system has weak T.
Great. Here he have a system which in reality has NO actual logical basis for their being 9 types in the first place (see even Gurdjief quote along with rest of points),... so instead, enneagram people make it even more confusing by attaching "wings" and "levels" of personal development
Yep.
From what I understand, enneagram claims there are 9 distinct personality types that don't change. Socionics represents how we process information, personality is different from that.
Think of it this way, suppose you have a particular make of car or a particular type of tree that makes up a forrest - they are all the same type of car/type of tree, but each one is unique and looks and is distinctive on it's own, despite having same hardware. This is socionics, the hardware, enneagram claims to be able to map each "car" and each "tree", each persons personality, into 9. We can look at for instance a vauxhall astra or a willow tree and we know it is same type of tree but sure as night follows day each one looks distinctive (in case of tree) or handles in it's own way (in case of car).
Let's say there are only 9 personalities in the world, as I said I don't think it would be too difficult to realise that I can only meet 9 types of people in the world (even although i've met numerous people of same socionic type but with different personalities - not 9 personalities), even forgetting the fact that the number 9 was simply invented because it looks nice on a particular geometric shape, that's it.
Of course, to make it even more wishy washy you can attach wings, "levels" of development, just to make it seem even more convincing to people who can't see past for what it is.
If you can explain the actual Ti logic to it (as there isn't any that I can see), and I could see if it can be verified by testing (which it can't as far as I can see,... there are 5 billion people in the world and I already know it doesn't take a genius to see that they all have their own personality) ... However, on that last part, most people can sort of see that people tend to be outgoing or quiet, full of feeling or unemotional - you see people observe the basics of socionics metabolism all the time, it is personality which makes the fundamental uniqueness of each individual.
The lack of testability annoys me more than the lack of structure actually. The fact that socionics makes a set of predictions (compatibility between types) on the basis of it's classifications that can be tested against experience is what sepparates it from intellectually bankrupt models like the MBTI and the enneagram.
Trichomy aproach?? Various 3-3-3 reininoids?? Seems worth of investigation. Even if it's required to start from scratch.Can you elaborate? I think the case for it being rubbish has been made pretty well (seriously, would be interested to see it otherwise).
P.S. Do not even try to drag me into these chit-chats. Whoever thinks I am interested in constructive discussions is way off the track.
if anything, i think enneagram is more Se-Ti than Ne-Ti.
if you will notice, the alpha NT's don't believe in it, since strict Ti logic does not apply. however, if you think about it, Se influenced logic perhaps does.
plus, if you also notice....enneagram is kind of negative about people. very SeTi. further, gurdgieff was an estp.
ILE
those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often
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2 is structural; 3 is dynamic; 4 is complete.
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Given this, how would you view the ternary division "Heart/Mind/Instinct" - that is, what would be wrong with an Enneagram that simply left out the 3/6/9 triad?
As an aside, I recall that in the past I've viewed "Heart/Mind/Instinct" as leaving out Intuition.
4 is 2*2.
1 is complete. Prime numbers larger than 3 are simply more fluid. Composite numbers depend on the prime numbers that compose them.
LII-Ne
"Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
- Blair Houghton
Johari
What happens when you try to examine these taking into account their absolute values only? Puting into the same category negatives and positives, puting nulls into the other? Is it of any value? On a first glance it seems like something that could come in handy in some instances, especially when dealing with some cyclic systems, finer properties of which are yet to be discovered.
Last edited by Trevor; 03-14-2010 at 08:30 PM.
OK, maybe I am missing something, or perhaps my post isn't fully understood, or a bit of both.
1. Why 9 types? Why specifically 9? This is a major flaw which has no logical base.
2. Trichotomy, I don't know what this is, but is this heart/mind/instinct?
Everyone relies on instinct every so often, for instance in life death situation, don't think it takes a genius to work out that hopefully not everyone is in life death situation and can also have a heart and use the mind.
3. What also is the usefulness of enneagram? Considering there's no reasons for there to be just 9 types, if I have some sort of personal development problem, then I can speak to a friend, buy a book, see a therapist, that's far more useful and specific. Socionics on other hand gives me an insight of compatibility - which so far has proved to be pretty reliable. Other problems in my life can be handled differently.
The enneagram isn't the anti-Ti
I mean I think its ridiculous in the first place to assign 16 types to people... the only reason your saying 16 isn't ridiculous and 9 is is because the 16 types were derived after the fact and after some theory was establish, but the theory itself what was it establish from? Natural Observation? What are all theories established from? Gravititational Theory arose from observation and so forth. What observation did jungian functions or socionics spring from that is soo much more reliable than the enneagram?
There is no more reason for having only 9 types than there is no more reason for having 16 or having only 8 jungian funcitons or having 4 dicotomies and so forth... there is nothing special about the quantities in personality theory.... personality isn't a quantitative measure. Its strictly qualitative.... the quantities merely arise from choosing and arbitrary number of "themes" to compress information about personality. each of the jungian functions are merely themes which contain a load of information that without their invention would take many adjectives to articulate. They are just a set of behavior etc wrapped up to make the process of communicating and thinking easier. The same is for the enneagram. The 9 types are not some divine thing and neither is socionics. The 9 types are merely an arbitrary set of coherent and consistant personality types, that people may strongly or weakly identify with.
I find the idea of matching to any personality type 100% to be ridiculous. There is nothing mystical about the enneagram and nothing mystical about socionics. Socionics is no better simply because they've added a layer of theoretical derivation to make you believe it. You could make a system working backwards with 5 layers of theoretical derivation and it wouldn't be better, just more complicated. The true test is how things match up with reality, and in my opinion, by observation the enneagram is just as reliable as socionics. It has some theoretical structure to it (triads, direction theory etc) and more importantly its elegant in the fact it can communicate stuff about human behavior and personality in a compact form (Ti - communicating complex ideas through logical structures). The stupid enneagram symbol can help you visualize the information easier, is about the only thing special with the symbol.
Also no one is forcing you to think in terms of the enneagram... but choosing to think outside of the enneagram is different than simply saying its illogical and wrong. I choose to express my thoughts in the english language, and if I were more ignorant I may look at the russian language and say "What are all these symbols and crap, they mean nothing... this is all mystical, they are just scribles on a page, nothing useful, complete nonsense, illogical!".... but it really isn't, its merely something I don't understand, and something I more than have the right to not understand if I wish, but that doesn't mean russians are illogical mislead idiots, and people who are interested in the enneagram are not a bunch of illogical idiots.
Last edited by male; 03-15-2010 at 12:31 PM.
Enneagram is full of these Positive-Negative (Unknown) measurements.
I've been thinking about this over the weekend, so here is my take which I've deduced.
Let's take out the 3/6/9 triad for now..
Heart and Mind should make for a easy distinction between ethics and logic. The types here are 2/4 and 5/7. I view 4 and 5 being more oriented towards introversion and 2 and 7 being more oriented towards extroversion. However there is still confusion here, because there is a lack of clear distinction between these characteristics.
Instinct consist of types 8 and 1. The one characteristic that defines both 8 and 1 is they are not types to be changed by the world but rather seek to change the world. The Challenger and the Reformer both remain stable while they seek to change the world around them.
We can view these types as being fundamentally static.
Now let's look at what we've taken out.
Conversely, Types 3 and 9 are driven by presenting a image of themselves in order to acquire achievement or preserve stability.
3's are image and status driven while 9 are peace and stability driven. They accommodate themselves to their enviroment and others in order to acquire their desires.
We can view these types as fundamentally dynamic.
So in the discussion of these 4 types, we can see some characteristics within their modes of behavior.
3's live externally while 9 live internally
8's are outsiders and "mavericks" while 1's work from within
Eights are external static types, One's are internal static types
Threes are external dynamic types, Nine's are internal static types
What are 6's?
These are people of which we know very little about, they are characterized by a lack of expressed attributes and I think characterized by confusion within their identity. 6's are a sort of Null + Null type.
At this point we have something that is a binary model, although we are not certain what exists to differentiate the differences being observed or their validity.
Last edited by mu4; 03-15-2010 at 09:18 PM.
(D)IEE~FI-(C)SLE~Ni E-5w4(Sp/Sx)/7w8(So/Sp)/9w1(sp/sx)
So it seems no ones been able to explain why there is only 9 types - this is where the Ti comes into it.
The other stuff, triads, wings, etc don't mean anything because it's built on a non-Ti system - there's no reason for there being only 9 types. Even Gurdjief didn't intent there to be 9 types.
Also, for myself, there's no practical benefit from the enneagram either.
Buying into enneagram, well if it works for you, fair enough.
I'm so-so on the enneagram.
Socionics more accurately describes your societal egoic identity, as well as relationship between individuals and groups in society. It also treats the types a lot more fair. When people accurately describe socionics, I don't see many biases, making it a pretty solid theory for me.
Enneagram, OTOH, seems like more of those gay ass 'career builders' where they try to mix in your psychological identity with your career. We Americans think it's only natural to strive to do something related to who you really are on the inside. I think that's just plain arrogant and obnoxious, though - since society itself is always a veil however necessary it is. It's also way too hard on 4s, just because it's always easier to pick on the bard-y emo than it is to go after the people that actually fuck up the world. It's really spineless and pathetic and cowardly, in that regard. But the system itself is just naturally set up for those who are complete shit to be successful in it. *sigh* Whachagonnado.
I always wondered why people take enneagram serious.
This is indeed an important criteria for valid a theory. It has to have a purpose for humans.
Compared to socionics, enneagram scores poorly on this. (Fair enough, compared to socionics (=how to find your soulmate) most theories score lower on usefulness)
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I definitely agree with blaze and labcoat on this one. It seems like many if not most alpha NTs do not have much faith in the enneagram.
sociotype.com
LII
I don't even understand what it means to have faith in the enneagram. Does it mean I can determine what kind of profile a person identifies with, on the basis of... what kind of profile a person identifies with...? Whut?
For all you enneagram haters out there, here's a quote that I believe is pertinent:
The first Matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art, flawless, sublime. A triumph equaled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being. Thus, I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus, the answer was stumbled upon by another, an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the Matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother.
The saddest ESFj
...
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It's from the movie The Matrix Reloaded.
Stan is not my real name.
oh I guess I should've included the source
Yea the Architect says it in the Matrix.
The saddest ESFj
...
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This is pretty much how I feel about it. I can't be bothered to play with it like I do socionics, but it's a pretty straightforward system. I had the same experience as Diana and my mother had a lot of background in it as well so when I went through the paces of finding my E-type and came out with 7w/ my mom basically agreed and I moved on with my life.
To be a Ti ego you don't have to pick apart every system you use or subscribe to in life. If that were the case we wouldn't be able to do anything with our lives. You would be too busy working out the details of the Dewey Decimal System to use the library (not suggesting this is necessarily a Ti system, I don't know enough about it to say what function it might appeal to most). Similarly, something doesn't have to cater to Ti for you to make use of it.
EDIT:Gulanzon has advised me that my wording was not exactly peaceable, so instead I will say this:
Dear Pinocchio,
You have your opinion, you say I'm an ILI. That's cool. I disagree. Let's move on.
Sincerely,
Véro
Last edited by Wynch; 03-22-2010 at 04:24 PM.
ILE
7w8 so/sp
Very busy with work. Only kind of around.
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Well Pinocchio, since you won't leave it alone then I'll simply have to ignore you. For future reference, I'll be keeping you on ignore.
ILE
7w8 so/sp
Very busy with work. Only kind of around.
Vero,
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