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Thread: Hidden agenda musing

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    Default Hidden agenda musing

    Question: (sorry if this has already been discussed)

    If the HA of SLI and ILI is "to love", and the HA of SLE and ILE is "to be loved", how come the former aren't compatible with the latter? Seems like the HAs are pretty compatible, no?

    Well, I suppose SLI-ILE and ILI-SLE are semi duals. . .but what about SLI-SLE and ILI-ILE?

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    "Love" means quite different things in those contexts... anyhow, they're weak functions, wouldn't necessarily expect them to be able to connect.



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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    Question: (sorry if this has already been discussed)

    If the HA of SLI and ILI is "to love", and the HA of SLE and ILE is "to be loved", how come the former aren't compatible with the latter? Seems like the HAs are pretty compatible, no?

    Well, I suppose SLI-ILE and ILI-SLE are semi duals. . .but what about SLI-SLE and ILI-ILE?

    Way I see it is that ESTp's don't care about what their opinion of you is, they only care about how you express your opinion of them to them.

    That is, sort of like a fan base, where a bunch of people think the person at the top is great.

    Typical things an ESTp likes: Likes people to talk about how great their legs are, likes people to say they are best looking guy in the group.

    You know, I know an ESTp who tends to get laughed at for the above things. Someone I know pointed out that even although he's getting laughed at, he's still getting attention, and he's actually happy just to be focal point, being "loved" in a way, although it's only one word maybe not the best.

    ISTp's on other hand need to feel close to people and want to like people, they want to "love" them (even secretly on some level or other).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Way I see it is that ESTp's don't care about what their opinion of you is, they only care about how you express your opinion of them to them.

    That is, sort of like a fan base, where a bunch of people think the person at the top is great.

    Typical things an ESTp likes: Likes people to talk about how great their legs are, likes people to say they are best looking guy in the group.

    You know, I know an ESTp who tends to get laughed at for the above things. Someone I know pointed out that even although he's getting laughed at, he's still getting attention, and he's actually happy just to be focal point, being "loved" in a way, although it's only one word maybe not the best.

    ISTp's on other hand need to feel close to people and want to like people, they want to "love" them (even secretly on some level or other).
    heh, awesome. correlated with my experiences too.

    I liked the examples you gave for SLE, what are some examples for SLI?

    I would assume that under this, SLIs would want someone to have a good opinion of him and not care how its expressed. how would ISTps love?

    would it be through continual use of verbal appreciation for someone?

    I would also imagine that theirs would be more choosy because of Fi valuing, so only a select few would get this right?

    hmm.
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    that's funny, because my BF just brought this up and asked me why the "to love" and "be loved" don't go together. He was like "yours is 'to know'? huh?" lol.

    I'd also like to hear more about the ISTps. I will never fully understand these people
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    I think that with SLE it's more wanting the attention and outward displays of affection, play, camaraderie, etc. (to be loved by many wherever they go, and they joke and play to draw this from others)

    With XLI I think it's more about coming to a feeling of love within for oneself and others, one that isn't necessarily expressed but felt deeply... and a yearning for one or a few close relationships with others where they love those others and are loved with perhaps a skepticism at first that this would even really be possible. It could also perhaps translate to wanting to simply know how to love and forgive all people and things inside by wanting to understand them maybe (but I'm not sure). I do think that Fi HA may be as much "to understand" as Ti HA is... it's just what one wants to understand is ethical rather than logical.

    So an XLI cultivating their Fi HA wouldn't do an XLE any good because it isn't about openly expressing it in a playful Fe way and so the XLI might just seem cold and distant to the XLE making them feel perhaps unwelcome and generally... the ethics that is important to each (their HA) is the PoLR of the other and so that can probably create a rather difficult situation in terms of ethics. The XLE might just laugh and play but displays nothing to reassure the XLI of any bond or anything and runs from such things (runs from intimacy), while the XLI may be cold and distant and retreat further and further the more Fe focused things become (as the XLE uses Fe to draw people out and that happens to be the XLI's PoLR that they can't express and so they might try to use Fi instead which would either bore the XLE or send them running away).

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    Brilliant explanations here. . .thanks so much guys! Makes a lot of sense, and this helps me visualize the difference a lot more clearly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jewels View Post
    that's funny, because my BF just brought this up and asked me why the "to love" and "be loved" don't go together. He was like "yours is 'to know'? huh?" lol.

    I'd also like to hear more about the ISTps. I will never fully understand these people
    I suppose to know is the best way to establish a bond?

    And ditto about SLIs remaining an enigma, keep it coming!
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    Oh my other question in regards to the HA is. . .if Fi is SLIs or ILIs mission in life, how come IEEs or SEEs (Fi creative) are more optimal for them than EIIs or ESIs (Fi primary) respectively?
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    Quote Originally Posted by thePirate View Post
    heh, awesome. correlated with my experiences too.

    I liked the examples you gave for SLE, what are some examples for SLI?

    I would assume that under this, SLIs would want someone to have a good opinion of him and not care how its expressed. how would ISTps love?

    would it be through continual use of verbal appreciation for someone?
    I would also imagine that theirs would be more choosy because of Fi valuing, so only a select few would get this right?

    hmm.
    Good question.

    I doubt it, because Fe is POLR. Probably that's why they need an IEE who can recognize the appreciation despite lack of verbal expression. But I could be wrong.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I think that with SLE it's more wanting the attention and outward displays of affection, play, camaraderie, etc. (to be loved by many wherever they go, and they joke and play to draw this from others)

    With XLI I think it's more about coming to a feeling of love within for oneself and others, one that isn't necessarily expressed but felt deeply... and a yearning for one or a few close relationships with others where they love those others and are loved with perhaps a skepticism at first that this would even really be possible. It could also perhaps translate to wanting to simply know how to love and forgive all people and things inside by wanting to understand them maybe (but I'm not sure). I do think that Fi HA may be as much "to understand" as Ti HA is... it's just what one wants to understand is ethical rather than logical.

    So an XLI cultivating their Fi HA wouldn't do an XLE any good because it isn't about openly expressing it in a playful Fe way and so the XLI might just seem cold and distant to the XLE making them feel perhaps unwelcome and generally... the ethics that is important to each (their HA) is the PoLR of the other and so that can probably create a rather difficult situation in terms of ethics. The XLE might just laugh and play but displays nothing to reassure the XLI of any bond or anything and runs from such things (runs from intimacy), while the XLI may be cold and distant and retreat further and further the more Fe focused things become (as the XLE uses Fe to draw people out and that happens to be the XLI's PoLR that they can't express and so they might try to use Fi instead which would either bore the XLE or send them running away).
    loki i think you've nailed it here. my boss is SLI and even though we are semi duals and see things in a similar way, there is a lot of distance between us. i notice that he gravitates a lot more towards the ESI, IEE in the office. an SEI is also able to connect well with him....but i guess we leave each other flat in this area. as a result, he has become a problem for me that i have to figure out how to overcome, for my own sanity and career.

    it's one reason that semi-duality is over-rated. people connect via their logic and ethics, not so much their intuition or sensing. it's like you can overcome differences in expectations around intuition and sensing, but not as much around logic and ethics.

    ergo...in practical application, you get along better with the people in your own quadra and in the quadra where you supervise and benefit one type, since that quadra doesn't value the information element found in your polr.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze View Post

    it's one reason that semi-duality is over-rated. people connect via their logic and ethics, not so much their intuition or sensing. it's like you can overcome differences in expectations around intuition and sensing, but not as much around logic and ethics.
    This reminds me of a thread I started some weeks ago: when it comes to physical confrontation, Se egos only fight with Ne egos, as well as Si egos only attack Ni egos. Sensors tend to win...

    So, IMO, the sensing-intuition axis is much more influential than the logic-ethics one. Because surviving is our goal!
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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    Question: (sorry if this has already been discussed)

    If the HA of SLI and ILI is "to love", and the HA of SLE and ILE is "to be loved", how come the former aren't compatible with the latter? Seems like the HAs are pretty compatible, no?

    Well, I suppose SLI-ILE and ILI-SLE are semi duals. . .but what about SLI-SLE and ILI-ILE?

    There is Spanish proverb: "2 + 2 are not always 4"
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    If the HA of SLI and ILI is "to love", and the HA of SLE and ILE is "to be loved", how come the former aren't compatible with the latter? Seems like the HAs are pretty compatible, no?
    A very good question and a rethorical one. Those descriptions are a load of crap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    Question: (sorry if this has already been discussed)

    If the HA of SLI and ILI is "to love", and the HA of SLE and ILE is "to be loved", how come the former aren't compatible with the latter? Seems like the HAs are pretty compatible, no?
    Because the HA of ESI and LSI isn't "to be imperfect."
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    This reminds me of a thread I started some weeks ago: when it comes to physical confrontation, Se egos only fight with Ne egos, as well as Si egos only attack Ni egos. Sensors tend to win...

    So, IMO, the sensing-intuition axis is much more influential than the logic-ethics one. Because surviving is our goal!
    with ILE-SLI the Ti-Te dispute is minimal, but the expectations of Fe and Fi, when the are not met, cause relationship-ruining disruption. this is why i'm saying this relation is over-rated: because in practical application, without somebody attending to the relationship and the feelings, essentially things go nowhere.

    as a way of isolating the functional difference, with illusionary IEI-ILE, you tend to communicate well and even though the dual seeking expectations are incompletely met, since you can communicate via Fe-Ti, you can work things out.

    so, this example is what leads me to say that the logic-ethics axis can be more helpful in practical application than the intuition-sensing axis, especially as it relates to ILE, SLI, and IEI.

    not sure about other relations, since to some degree you actually can't generalize relations, even though they may be in the same category. like you could say there are certain commonalities in all semi-duality relations, but then again there are going to be specific type differences that define the details of any given relationship.


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    I've noticed that with the two SLI-ILE relationships I know. The inability to deal with feelings is pretty apparent. It doesn't matter at first when everything is new and warm and fuzzy, but after about 7 years, the friction is nearly constant. I've noticed both couples have benefited from a year of separation, which makes them renew commitment. It's like they can't let go, but they also can't be happy together either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Way I see it is that ESTp's don't care about what their opinion of you is, they only care about how you express your opinion of them to them.

    That is, sort of like a fan base, where a bunch of people think the person at the top is great.

    Typical things an ESTp likes: Likes people to talk about how great their legs are, likes people to say they are best looking guy in the group.

    You know, I know an ESTp who tends to get laughed at for the above things. Someone I know pointed out that even although he's getting laughed at, he's still getting attention, and he's actually happy just to be focal point, being "loved" in a way, although it's only one word maybe not the best.

    ISTp's on other hand need to feel close to people and want to like people, they want to "love" them (even secretly on some level or other).
    ISTp like more attention to their physical characteristics, like "look how great my arms are" then ESTp's. ESTp's can be modestly reserved, shy like intellectuals. ISTp's are damn smart and they themselves know it and I don't think anyone else can deny that overt charm of theirs.

    Seems like you don't know either type very well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    ISTp like more attention to their physical characteristics, like "look how great my arms are" then ESTp's. ESTp's can be modestly reserved, shy like intellectuals. ISTp's are damn smart and they themselves know it and I don't think anyone else can deny that overt charm of theirs.

    Seems like you don't know either type very well.
    Why, cause I don't agree with you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    ISTp like more attention to their physical characteristics, like "look how great my arms are" then ESTp's. ESTp's can be modestly reserved, shy like intellectuals. ISTp's are damn smart and they themselves know it and I don't think anyone else can deny that overt charm of theirs.

    Seems like you don't know either type very well.
    that sounds gay. are you sure you're not just noting what gay ones do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mercutio View Post
    that sounds gay. are you sure you're not just noting what gay ones do.
    well, there are too many types of ISTp to compare one to another anyway..
    ISTp mathmaticians
    ISTp artists, poets, writers, musicians
    ISTp athletes
    ISTp business people
    ISTp carpenter, mechanic, engineer
    ISTp....
    truly a multi tallented person an ISTp really is

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    My current Philosophy professor is likely an ISTp. A few of the proffessions that he has engaged in during his earlier years include atletics (high level professional) and medical science. He has written 3 books, one of which had children as the target audience. He also an editor (redacteur) of a literary magazine. Just a little glimpse of how versatile ISTps can be.

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    I just had a sudden realization about the hidden agenda, and I'm curious whether people think this thought holds any water:

    The hidden agenda is the function that we think we're good at but really aren't.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    Oh my other question in regards to the HA is. . .if Fi is SLIs or ILIs mission in life, how come IEEs or SEEs (Fi creative) are more optimal for them than EIIs or ESIs (Fi primary) respectively?
    ILI/ESI and SLI/EII are Activity relationships. I read somewhere this relationship "overactivates" HA, making it exhausting in the long term, but can't find the source right now. It makes sense to me. Then there's a difference in rationality/irrationality.

    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    I just had a sudden realization about the hidden agenda, and I'm curious whether people think this thought holds any water:

    The hidden agenda is the function that we think we're good at but really aren't.
    That's role function, I think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    That's role function, I think.
    I think that one's "we know we aren't good at it but we try to pretend that we are."



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    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    I think that one's "we know we aren't good at it but we try to pretend that we are."
    That works for me... but I know socionics, which kind of helped me realize my weak points. Do people generally know they're deluding themselves about their abilities in that area, though? Some probably find the hard way, but most?

    I still think I'm little good at my HA, and wouldn't describe it this way - didn't need socionics for that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aixelsyd View Post
    Most of the time, people don't realize it. I easily identified with being a sensitive, emotional person and of being considerate of others and being ethically minded (to an extent, at least caring about it), but then I realize all of that was just delusion because all I did was investigate these manners via my creative function (Te-information gathering in this case) and was not such a person in practice like someone who was adept at my HA would be putting this into practice.

    But a better sense of objectivity and having a self-revelation is certainly a likelihood of occurring which would help one realize that their so called strength is really a sham. But the idea that you don't realize you are bad in it is more of a natural tendency than something that is in actuality because some people are more self-aware, self-critical, etc than others or have experiences I mentioned.
    Exactly what I had in mind. What I realized is that this is the "unconscious" aspect of the the HA. This is in contrast to the DS function which is sorely missing but you dont have recognition or a drive to provide it for yourself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by aixelsyd View Post
    Most of the time, people don't realize it. I easily identified with being a sensitive, emotional person and of being considerate of others and being ethically minded (to an extent, at least caring about it), but then I realize all of that was just delusion because all I did was investigate these manners via my creative function (Te-information gathering in this case) and was not such a person in practice like someone who was adept at my HA would be putting this into practice.

    But a better sense of objectivity and having a self-revelation is certainly a likelihood of occurring which would help one realize that their so called strength is really a sham. But the idea that you don't realize you are bad in it is more of a natural tendency than something that is in actuality because some people are more self-aware, self-critical, etc than others or have experiences I mentioned.
    When you put it this way, it makes so much more sense. As do a lot of your other posts, but I don't like to post when I have nothing to say, so I usually don't comment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    I think that one's "we know we aren't good at it but we try to pretend that we are."
    Brilliand, so you agree with my statement?
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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    I just had a sudden realization about the hidden agenda, and I'm curious whether people think this thought holds any water:

    The hidden agenda is the function that we think we're good at but really aren't.
    Yep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    well, there are too many types of ISTp to compare one to another anyway..
    ISTp mathmaticians
    ISTp artists, poets, writers, musicians
    ISTp athletes
    ISTp business people
    ISTp carpenter, mechanic, engineer
    ISTp....
    truly a multi tallented person an ISTp really is
    omg I rofled hard at this, istp istp istp istp istP istP istP istP isTP isTP isTP isTP iSTP iSTP iSTP iSTP ISTP ISTP ISTP ISTP ISTP ISTP ISTP ISTP ISTP ISTP ISTP ISTP ISTP ISTP ISTP ISTP! ISTP! ISTP! ISTP!!!!!! ISTP!!!!!! ISTP!!!!!! ISTP!!!!!! ISTP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!! IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSTTTTTTTTTTTT TTTTTTTPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    That works for me... but I know socionics, which kind of helped me realize my weak points. Do people generally know they're deluding themselves about their abilities in that area, though? Some probably find the hard way, but most?
    I think usually people know that they're showing more ability with their role function than they really have... and they do this not so much because they want to, but because they are afraid of the repercussions if they don't.

    @WorkaholicsAnon: Yes, I agree with you.



    LII-Ne

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    Johari

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