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Thread: SLEs/ESTps expecting and valuing loyalty

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    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
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    Default SLEs/ESTps expecting and valuing loyalty

    SLEs, do you expect loyalty? How highly do you value it? I was thinking at first that loyalty might be more of an Fi thing (insofar as it is a static bond between two people), but now I'm not so sure.

    Does the idea of a permanently loyal spouse, servant, assistant, co-worker, friend, secretary, etc., appeal to you? What do you think of the idea of the person that would follow you "to the ends of the earth"? Is this something you would appreciate, or find annoying?

    Okay. Sorry for all the questions. Thoughts? (which was a question. fail)
    Not a rule, just a trend.

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    Like relationship wise?

    Definitely! Think Enneagram 8s, they throw everything at you, to test your loyalty, what you can take - to see if they can drop their guard with you and become vulnerable.

    In a relationship, a fucked up SLE can value the other persons loyalty so they can use the person for what they want, whenever they want and they don't have an issue going out and getting whatever they want from anyone else. In my experience most SLEs have an inability to really care about anyone else, unless it's someone they love and I don't know about the extent of that.
    Last edited by dinki; 03-10-2010 at 07:39 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dinki
    In my experience most SLEs have an inability to really care about anyone else
    Wow.

    Do you mean to say they actually lack the ability to feel love in an emotional sense? Like their version of "love" is more like a sense of "ownership" or something?

    Or do you mean they are just naturally self-centered and can't help it, even in a serious relationship?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shagbag The Wizard View Post
    Wow.



    Do you mean to say they actually lack the ability to feel love in an emotional sense? Like their version of "love" is more like a sense of "ownership" or something?

    Or do you mean they are just naturally self-centered and can't help it, even in a serious relationship?
    Ahh. Shit, no way, sorry . Sure they can love. They can be really good people, obviously, but they are naturally self-centered, it can feel like a very one sided relationship. They have a hard time caring about people and their feelings, it doesn't make them bad people, it's just not something they can do easily - it's not natural to them. I think the more you demonstrate that you do care for them and what they feel, the easier they find it is to care for you and your feelings.

    Though I think love is important in this. SLEs can't empathise, though if they love you they will attempt to sympathise. Unless they love you, I think they can only care so much.

    Some of the more psychologically whack ones, feel totally justified in hurting you in the worst way possible when you won't submit or don't give them what they want and feel totally outraged when you question their actions or fight back. What they want is to make an impact, if they can't make you love them, they would rather you hated them than be indifferent.

    I've only been involved with a few, though.
    Last edited by dinki; 03-10-2010 at 04:02 PM.
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    The Looks stanprollyright's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shagbag The Wizard View Post
    Wow.

    Do you mean to say they actually lack the ability to feel love in an emotional sense? Like their version of "love" is more like a sense of "ownership" or something?
    Love is a universal emotion. I'm sure it manifests differently for each type, but there's no normal functioning person who is unable to feel love

    Quote Originally Posted by Shagbag The Wizard View Post
    Or do you mean they are just naturally self-centered and can't help it, even in a serious relationship?
    That's probably closer to the truth, but who isn't? Everyone is naturally self-centered.

    IME, SLEs are pretty loyal if you mean something to them.
    Stan is not my real name.

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    [QUOTE=stanprollyright;621940]


    That's probably closer to the truth, but who isn't? Everyone is naturally self-centered.

    QUOTE]

    I agree but I feel like SLEs are more so than some other types or can seem like they are because of the Fi PoLR. I think they are very loyal to their friends but romantic relationships are different.
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    Hmm, that is interesting.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dinki
    Unless you make them feel strongly, they aren't going to be loyal.
    This brings up another question......how easy is it to KEEP them feeling strongly, and thus keep their loyalty?

    I find that SLEs in my experience do require a steady stream of stimulation to keep them interested. This is probably the main reason why my relationships with them fail inevitably, no matter how initially promising it was. I'm simply too laid-back and reserved (most of the time) to keep them "entertained", as it were, so their attention wanders and they start looking for new "toys" to play with.

    Either that, or they will jostle and provoke me in any way necessary just to get a reaction. Which is usually my cue to leave.

    I do find that the more energetic/hyper/demanding/forceful they become, the more I clam up. Which frustrates them even more....and round and round it goes. So it's not that we "hate" each other, as conflictors, it just doesn't seem to "work" on an informational level.

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    I should say, I did have a best friend for a couple years in primary school, who I'm 90%sure was a SLE. (Stan, shush)

    After a few years tho he had developed this vibe of "ownership" over me that made me uncomfortable. In fact, I started to feel more like a toy to him. I think he was well-meaning, but became very controlling and smothering to the point where I had to call it a day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stan
    I'm sure it manifests differently for each type, but there's no normal functioning person who is unable to feel love
    100% agree. I guess this is what I'm interested to find out here. How exactly do SLEs experience "love" if they are Fi-PoLR.


    (Sorry silverchris, I feel like I've hijacked your thread a bit. Guess I'll hang back for a while and merely observe...)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shagbag The Wizard View Post
    Hmm, that is interesting.




    This brings up another question......how easy is it to KEEP them feeling strongly, and thus keep their loyalty?

    I think it really depends on the individual. Like some SLEs I have felt really strongly for and others not much at all so it probably works the other way. With the ones I have been involved with, I think it's easy (that's the only way IEI-SLE duality stays intact, there is no obligation so we have to both make it addictive for the other but not every dual can do that for you - it's about matcing each other in every way as well as duality), it's about the right balance of charm and resistance. And play it like they play it, if they are setting out to get their wants met then demand that they give you what you want and never back down.

    I find that SLEs in my experience do require a steady stream of stimulation to keep them interested. This is probably the main reason why my relationships with them fail inevitably, no matter how initially promising it was. I'm simply too laid-back and reserved (most of the time) to keep them "entertained", as it were, so their attention wanders and they start looking for new "toys" to play with.

    Maybe. But maybe you do keep them entertained, they just want what they want and if they don't get it from you, they will go find another toy. Do they come back and try again?

    Either that, or they will jostle and provoke me in any way necessary just to get a reaction. Which is usually my cue to leave.

    I do find that the more energetic/hyper/demanding/forceful they become, the more I clam up. Which frustrates them even more....and round and round it goes. So it's not that we "hate" each other, as conflictors, it just doesn't seem to "work" on an informational level.

    Are you sure they are your conflictor ?
    ohm
    Last edited by dinki; 03-10-2010 at 04:49 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dinki
    it's about the right balance of charm and resistance. And play it like they play it,
    Hmm, well I guess this is kind of my sticking point with SLEs as far as potential partnership goes. I definitely need a relationship that is stable, predictable and functional, where we both understand exactly what the status quo is, what our respective roles are and so forth. I feel that I need this level of certainty as a foundation before I can relax and "have fun", as it were.

    Just the thought of having to constantly "charm, challenge + resist" my partner to keep him interested is pretty tiring and not really appealing, lol.
    Last edited by Shagbag The Wizard; 03-10-2010 at 04:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dinki
    Haha, give me an example. I've been in that loop before, sometimes the more they push, the more I resist. Do you mean like hyper and energetic and hitting on you?
    I mean hitting on me as well as general social interaction. In both cases they've been very demanding and seem to expect your full attention and co-operation otherwise they can potentially get pissed off, which scares me a bit because in the back of my mind I'm aware of what can happen if they "snap".

    So actually, I don't resist them at all. I usually try my damndest to put on a brave face and humour them, while quietly calculating the quickest way out, lol.

    In contrast, I have 2 IEI friends who have admitted (even prior to socionics, interestingly) that they LOVE guys like this. The one went all mushy and dreamy-eyed when he told me he was secretly turned on by "wifebeater types" lol. (Not saying all SLEs are wifebeaters ofc )

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shagbag The Wizard View Post
    100% agree. I guess this is what I'm interested to find out here. How exactly do SLEs experience "love" if they are Fi-PoLR.


    (Sorry silverchris, I feel like I've hijacked your thread a bit. Guess I'll hang back for a while and merely observe...)
    Love is not Fi. They're related however.

    Anyways, people don't really understand Love, why did a ILE with Fi-Polr systemize socionics to explain eros and compatibility.

    SLE are vulnerable people when it comes to love and attachment and this is something they work very hard to avoid and protect themselves from.

    SLE are a striving and achieving type and for them most people are simply... NOT WORTHY OF THEM.

    And for people that complain about them treating you possessively or like a toy, what makes you so special?

    Fi-Polr people just treat most people exactly the same depending on how nice or not nice or polite they happen to be raised or choose to act as social convention, situation, or necessity dictates.

    As for SLE, they are very loyal people but to a select few whom they view as equals, comrades, or betters, but you better not fall behind because they won't slow down for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr
    but you better not fall behind because they won't slow down for you.
    That about sums it up for me, thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shagbag The Wizard View Post
    I mean hitting on me as well as general social interaction. In both cases they've been very demanding and seem to expect your full attention and co-operation otherwise they can potentially get pissed off, which scares me a bit because in the back of my mind I'm aware of what can happen if they "snap".

    So actually, I don't resist them at all. I usually try my damndest to put on a brave face and humour them, while quietly calculating the quickest way out, lol.

    In contrast, I have 2 IEI friends who have admitted (even prior to socionics, interestingly) that they LOVE guys like this. The one went all mushy and dreamy-eyed when he told me he was secretly turned on by "wifebeater types" lol. (Not saying all SLEs are wifebeaters ofc )
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shagbag The Wizard View Post
    100% agree. I guess this is what I'm interested to find out here. How exactly do SLEs experience "love" if they are Fi-PoLR.


    (Sorry silverchris, I feel like I've hijacked your thread a bit. Guess I'll hang back for a while and merely observe...)
    Define love?
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    God. Irrationality much?

    SLEs are really loyal to those they value , like other people have said.
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    SLEs, do you expect loyalty? How highly do you value it? I was thinking at first that loyalty might be more of an Fi thing (insofar as it is a static bond between two people), but now I'm not so sure.
    What I've done in the past is look for predictability as a form of loyalty. Logical types, IJ types, those who couldn't get someone else as hot as me, those who would be financially dependent on me, my supervisee, etc. I realize in hindsight that this is a horrible way to build a relationship. I need to learn how to allow myself to be vulnerable, to risk the possibility of loving someone and losing them. If I don't do that, we can't really build a proper relationship. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

    Does the idea of a permanently loyal spouse, servant, assistant, co-worker, friend, secretary, etc., appeal to you? What do you think of the idea of the person that would follow you "to the ends of the earth"? Is this something you would appreciate, or find annoying?
    When someone says they'll always love me or always be with me, my immediately reaction is, "How could you possibly know something like that?!" I don't believe them. I believe that they mean it at the time, but I don't believe that they have any way of knowing how they'll feel in the future.

    The idea of being with someone who would follow you "to the ends of the earth" is somewhat unappealing to me, at least right now, because it gives me too much responsibility. I believe that people need to be responsible for their own best interests and lives. If I'm being a dick, they should say, "Fuck you. I'm not putting up with this. I'm not going to stick around and let you treat me this way." If it's someone I want to be with, I'll take heed. In fact, it probably wouldn't even get to that point. All they'd have to do is show me that they're upset and I would examine my behavior to determine if there's something I should be doing differently. I don't want to hurt people. Sometimes I just don't understand that what I'm doing is hurting them. At the same time though, they should also be resilient enough to just forget it and move on once the issue is settled. Those who hang on to resentments over things like that are not a good match for me. And they should definitely let me know before it gets too bad. I wouldn't want them to suffer in silence and build resentment towards me when I have no idea what the fuck is going on.

    So yeah, a little "Fe demonstration" like I've mentioned in a previous post is really all that's needed.

    Okay. Sorry for all the questions. Thoughts? (which was a question. fail)
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