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Thread: "immoral" INFjs

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    Default "immoral" INFjs

    Have you encountered those? I've been noticing the gradual change in me when it comes to morality... Slowly, I don't see things as being "good" or "bad" anymore, and I've had people question my morality/stance on some issues. There's something about stress and pressure that makes you question some issues about morality. It's like I'm venturing into a place that is foreign to me, since I used to have a defined point of view morality when it came to situations, and was able to reach a conclusion rather quickly about what is the correct/wrong thing to do. I'm sure of being a good/nice guy though, but it's like I am slowly being able to separate more and more actions from "the person within," maybe this is an Fi development issue, idk. I've noticed recently how this might be different than someone who has Fi polr, who might automatically judge a person's character based on their actions, and not see the person within. At least this has been my experience with an ILE recently. The point is, I wonder if people find this kind of thing disappointing when they know an EII like that.

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    For someone to (more or less) turn off their leading function..., yeah, I could imagine that might be a little disappointing to friends, the fam, et al.

    To me, the problem isn't so much the drop, but more the apathy, depression, or killer stress I envision going along with it. A personality change that harsh doesn't just happen out of the blue, does it? (Not trying to read anything into your situation, though...)

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    i want to understand what morality meant to you and why you're evolving out of it. do you have any insights?
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    yeah I knew an INFj who seemed very ethical/moral. VERY nice person. Loved that about her and we were good friends.

    About a year later she admitted it was sort of an act, and she just knew people wouldn't like it if she was herself (she was saying this about dating -- since she'd get dumped when she showed her true colors). I also stopped being friends w/ her when I saw how she was.

    She did things like stay friends with an ex-boyfriend because she could vacation at his parents' house and he'd buy her things, even though she told me he was disgusting and she had no respect for him. She only wanted to date rich guys and live the easy life, without really contributing anything in return. That sorta thing.

    Not sure if this has been on topic. But Fi and being ethical/moral are not always tied together. It can be easy to be swept along a path of being immoral sometimes, but then you wake up and realize and get back on track.
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    Those things are not what I would do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CILi View Post
    For someone to (more or less) turn off their leading function..., yeah, I could imagine that might be a little disappointing to friends, the fam, et al.

    To me, the problem isn't so much the drop, but more the apathy, depression, or killer stress I envision going along with it. A personality change that harsh doesn't just happen out of the blue, does it? (Not trying to read anything into your situation, though...)
    Yeah, it's related to apathy, you become numb and see some moral implications as being overcomplicated.

    Quote Originally Posted by jewels View Post
    yeah I knew an INFj who seemed very ethical/moral. VERY nice person. Loved that about her and we were good friends.

    About a year later she admitted it was sort of an act, and she just knew people wouldn't like it if she was herself (she was saying this about dating -- since she'd get dumped when she showed her true colors). I also stopped being friends w/ her when I saw how she was.

    She did things like stay friends with an ex-boyfriend because she could vacation at his parents' house and he'd buy her things, even though she told me he was disgusting and she had no respect for him. She only wanted to date rich guys and live the easy life, without really contributing anything in return. That sorta thing.

    Not sure if this has been on topic. But Fi and being ethical/moral are not always tied together. It can be easy to be swept along a path of being immoral sometimes, but then you wake up and realize and get back on track.
    Ok, that's lower than what I am experiencing right now, hehe.

    Quote Originally Posted by crazedratXII View Post
    i want to understand what morality meant to you and why you're evolving out of it. do you have any insights?
    Morality for me used to be at times "impersonal," as in I would cast judgment on a person/situation because it made sense, rather than understanding where people were coming from... For example, a woman becoming a stripper to get money to feed her kids. A long time before, I would have just said that it's wrong to be a stripper, regardless of the situation. Now though, I understand that people do things under desperation, and it just makes things harder for them to be judgmental about it.

    Recently, I found out about a situation where a student was caught with a solution to a homework from the previous year, and the professor told him to drop, otherwise he would report it to the plagiarism board, or whatever you call it (the one that can potentially kick you out). The guy dropped the course, and I happen to know him. I thought that the professor was very harsh, because he really doesn't know where the guy was coming from. He happens to be one of the nicest guys I've met, and hard working, yet he was careless in using the old homework to check his answers and got caught. To me, you can't just cast judgment on someone without even trying to understand why they did it. It's like with morality you sometimes lose objectivity, and I'm seeing things more objectively. People might disagree with me, but I even see cheating as being the right choice for some situations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobo View Post
    Morality for me used to be at times "impersonal," as in I would cast judgment on a person/situation because it made sense, rather than understanding where people were coming from... For example, a woman becoming a stripper to get money to feed her kids. A long time before, I would have just said that it's wrong to be a stripper, regardless of the situation. Now though, I understand that people do things under desperation, and it just makes things harder for them to be judgmental about it.
    I think it's related to maturity and an increased ability to empathize, Lobo.

    Also, I think the correct term you are looking for is "amoral".

    Quote Originally Posted by Lobo
    I am slowly being able to separate more and more actions from "the person within".
    I am hesitant to relate this to a particular type or function but I feel that I have been able to do this for a long time. In some cases, it is just me being incredibly naive and denying the reality, but more often than not I feel I am right. Though I believe action speaks louder than words, I feel sometimes that what is within speaks louder than action.

    Being able to understand or see the inner essence of a person, I think, allows me as a person, and maybe I can generalize this to EIIs, to empathize, accept and forgive more readily than most people. And by acceptance and forgiveness, I don't mean it in a passive way--that is, "all is forgotten" kind of approach, but rather, taking it all in (not sure if I am clear here).

    The thing is, I can hardly pin this down to one particular function and see it more as a holistic consequence of the interactions between the eight functions in the EII psyche and, of course, my own personal journey.
    Ceci n'est pas une eii.




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    lol. This isn't a reduction in morality, it's an increase in contextualization. This is entirely consistent with INFjs. Fi isn't about being moralistic or narrow-minded (that critique is more often and more accurately leveled at Ne-polrs, although INFjs certainly have their faults as well), it's about empathy and relationship and bond. Fi is about "fellow feeling". It starts with attention subjective sentiments towards others, and proceeds out (especially when accompanied with Ne creative) to others subjective sentiments, especially stable relational bonds (parent-child, husband-wife, brother-sister, etc.). It is very sensitive to things that affect those stable relational bonds, and perhaps quests towards their ultimate stasis as a sort of "unconditional love."

    Black and white morality isn't actually something that's particularly common to Fi types, especially EIIs, who are always trying to find excuses for people (for certain behaviors). What EIIs will not tolerate is anything they see as harmful to the individual or to the important bonds (which is really the same thing, if you think about it). Actually, I think the fact that in contemporary American (Western?) culture, delta is the quadra most associated with traditional morality has more to do with historical and cultural influences and generational changes than with anything inherent to the type. In the post-Civil War American South, for instance, it was the betas who were the bastions of the "old ways" and such. I do think that EIIs are inclined to be very deontological in dealing with morality; that is, "duty" seems to be an important concept not only with EIIs but with deltas in general. I don't think you're giving up the idea of duty, only adding more context to determine what one's duty is in a given circumstance. You're adding complexity, not subtracting moral obligations.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobo View Post
    Have you encountered those? I've been noticing the gradual change in me when it comes to morality... Slowly, I don't see things as being "good" or "bad" anymore, and I've had people question my morality/stance on some issues. There's something about stress and pressure that makes you question some issues about morality. It's like I'm venturing into a place that is foreign to me, since I used to have a defined point of view morality when it came to situations, and was able to reach a conclusion rather quickly about what is the correct/wrong thing to do. I'm sure of being a good/nice guy though, but it's like I am slowly being able to separate more and more actions from "the person within," maybe this is an Fi development issue, idk. I've noticed recently how this might be different than someone who has Fi polr, who might automatically judge a person's character based on their actions, and not see the person within. At least this has been my experience with an ILE recently. The point is, I wonder if people find this kind of thing disappointing when they know an EII like that.
    I think you're going through some positive changes (I would rather use "a-moral" instead of "immoral"). Think of Sartre, who said morality was a tool of the bourgeoisie to control the masses.

    It's not unlikely that you'll end up with a new set of ethical standards, one that has been carefully thought over and therefore feels more authentic. But I want to warn you upfront: at first, this process might set you apart from the people you know, if they hold preconceived ideas about morality, and you won't be able to communicate your new understanding. It takes time to find new people who will.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    lol. This isn't a reduction in morality, it's an increase in contextualization. This is entirely consistent with INFjs. Fi isn't about being moralistic or narrow-minded (that critique is more often and more accurately leveled at Ne-polrs, although INFjs certainly have their faults as well), it's about empathy and relationship and bond.
    In addition to the things you mention, Fi is also about making value judgments of other people's character. Fi does not only serve to create bonds and relationships, but also to keep other people at distance if you, for whatever reason, don't like them. In that sense, Fi does involve moral estimation of other people, although the morals involved can be highly personal and totally insane, as well as totally out of sync with the morals of a specific group.

    In unhealthy, unbalanced Fi-egos it is certainly possible that Fi becomes neurotic or pathological in the form of heavy moralism and/or unrelenting moral standards and hypercriticalness.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    I would like to agree with what's already been said about "maturity". Being able to separate people from their actions is a sign of enlightment IMO, and I definitely see EIIs as being the most capable of truly "getting" this earlier on in life.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Shagbag The Wizard View Post
    [Deleted: long post on Shagbag's spiritual journey]
    [Reason: no one gives a frack / EIIs don't like discussing these things publicly]
    lol.. yeah, keep to the script! :-p
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    I was going to say "that isn't what Fi is about really", but then I read Silverchris' response. So, what he said.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubicon
    lol.. yeah, keep to the script!


    Well, it looks like I did the right thing, lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa
    Those things are not what I would do.
    *sigh*

    No offense, but the idea that ALL EIIs must be exactly identical in thought and behaviour is frankly ridiculous.

    Maritsa, you need to take into account the differences in peoples' circumstances / backgrounds / upbringing etc. that mould them and make them unique.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shagbag The Wizard View Post
    *sigh*

    No offense, but the idea that ALL EIIs must be exactly identical in thought and behaviour is frankly ridiculous.

    Maritsa, you need to take into account the differences in peoples' circumstances / backgrounds / upbringing etc. that mould them and make them unique.
    Maritsa's IEI anyway though, so moot point. But you're right.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    Maritsa's IEI anyway though, so moot point. But you're right.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobo View Post
    Yeah, it's related to apathy, you become numb and see some moral implications as being overcomplicated.



    Ok, that's lower than what I am experiencing right now, hehe.



    Morality for me used to be at times "impersonal," as in I would cast judgment on a person/situation because it made sense, rather than understanding where people were coming from... For example, a woman becoming a stripper to get money to feed her kids. A long time before, I would have just said that it's wrong to be a stripper, regardless of the situation. Now though, I understand that people do things under desperation, and it just makes things harder for them to be judgmental about it.

    Recently, I found out about a situation where a student was caught with a solution to a homework from the previous year, and the professor told him to drop, otherwise he would report it to the plagiarism board, or whatever you call it (the one that can potentially kick you out). The guy dropped the course, and I happen to know him. I thought that the professor was very harsh, because he really doesn't know where the guy was coming from. He happens to be one of the nicest guys I've met, and hard working, yet he was careless in using the old homework to check his answers and got caught. To me, you can't just cast judgment on someone without even trying to understand why they did it. It's like with morality you sometimes lose objectivity, and I'm seeing things more objectively. People might disagree with me, but I even see cheating as being the right choice for some situations.

    You're ISTp

    I don't think that way about people and their choices...I have changed very little on my thoughts about what I think about why people do or don't do things from the age of 7. I know who is good and who is bad; but, I know who is at what level of good and bad and at what level they are honest or not. But, I don't cast judgement, when I do things that reflect the real situation, it only seems like judgement to others because they can't see or feel what I can.

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    maritsa shut up. your opinion has no place here.
    INTp

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    That video should be interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    I have changed very little on my thoughts about what I think about why people do or don't do things from the age of 7.
    Mhm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    I found my exact identical twin and she is in Rwanda now; when she returns I will make a video of us together for all of you to see.
    You mean like how Joey from friends found his identical hand twin in Vegas?

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    Fi and Fe aren't about actually being good people. Just because those types might talk more or vocalize more or comment more about what is right and wrong or positive or whatever - making normative statements, doesn't mean they are particularly saintly themselves. It's kind of like saying - oh, you're a priest, right? That must mean you're a good person. Obviously that isn't the case; someones occupation or someone's type doesn't mean morality.

    All people have to fight their weaknesses and overcome difficulties, and deal with different pressures in different ways. EIIs, yes, like everybody else, make bad decisions, wuss out, use people, cop out, and other such things. EIIs tend to be immoral via passivity or omission, using their reservedness or typically seeming ethical disposition. Although not always.

    I think the 'sin' of EIIs is most often developing a sense of ambivalence about things, and/or their own their own relationship to them. There can be an expectation that action is dependent upon other people for something to change or happen; or thinking that by the amount mental energy or emotion they put into things, that will, therefore, translate into reality somehow. I've seen this in E9s, but also the E6s and the E4s, in their own ways. Basically, just because they are 'aware' of relationships or even 'ethical structures', that doesn't mean they are going to own up to them fully or use them properly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    Fi and Fe aren't about actually being good people. Just because those types might talk more or vocalize more or comment more about what is right and wrong or positive or whatever - making normative statements, doesn't mean they are particularly saintly themselves. It's kind of like saying - oh, you're a priest, right? That must mean you're a good person. Obviously that isn't the case; someones occupation or someone's type doesn't mean morality.

    All people have to fight their weaknesses and overcome difficulties, and deal with different pressures in different ways. EIIs, yes, like everybody else, make bad decisions, wuss out, use people, cop out, and other such things. EIIs tend to be immoral via passivity or omission, using their reservedness or typically seeming ethical disposition. Although not always.

    I think the 'sin' of EIIs is most often developing a sense of ambivalence and expectation that action is dependent upon other people for something to change or happen; or thinking that by the amount mental energy or emotion they put into things, that will, therefore, translate into reality somehow. I've seen this in E9s, but also the E6s and the E4s, in their own ways.
    We never omit information. Always ethical.

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    PS

    A consequence of the above paragraph often is physical incapacitation of some sort. Look at Dostoevsky, who couldn't manage himself and had gambling issues among other things:
    Later Career
    In December 1859, Dostoyevsky returned to Saint Petersburg, where he ran a series of unsuccessful literary journals, Vremya (Time) and Epokha (Epoch), with his older brother Mikhail. The latter was shut down as a consequence of its coverage of the Polish Uprising of 1863. That year Dostoyevsky traveled to Europe and frequented the gambling casinos. There he met Apollinaria Suslova, the model for Dostoyevsky's "proud women", such as the two characters named Katerina Ivanovna, in Crime and Punishment and The Brothers Karamazov. Dostoyevsky was devastated by his wife's death in 1864, which was followed shortly thereafter by his brother's death. He was financially crippled by business debts; furthermore, he decided to assume the responsibility of his deceased brother's outstanding debts, and he also provided for his wife's son from her earlier marriage and his brother's widow and children. Dostoyevsky sank into a deep depression, frequenting gambling parlors and accumulating massive losses at the tables.

    Dostoyevsky suffered from an acute gambling compulsion and its consequences. By one account[who?] he completed Crime and Punishment, possibly his best known novel, in a mad hurry because he was in urgent need of an advance from his publisher. He had been left practically penniless after a gambling spree. Dostoyevsky wrote The Gambler simultaneously in order to satisfy an agreement with his publisher Stellovsky who, if he did not receive a new work, would have claimed the copyrights to all of Dostoyevsky's writings.
    Plenty of EIIs drown themselves in drugs or fantasy lands or depressions, focusing on their own comfort or a fixation, as a coping mechanism or otherwise. I've seen EIIs have unhealthy attitudes towards sex, people, drugs, addictions, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    We never omit information. Always ethical.


    edit: eh, whatever. I forget sometimes that it's just not worth it to respond to you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post


    edit: eh, whatever. I forget sometimes that it's just not worth it to respond to you.
    I actually thought it was quite a good post.

    Perhaps not to resurrect an old joke of yours, but it occurs to me that if this girl really is EII, she's likely the sort of type to bake you brownies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    PS

    A consequence of the above paragraph often is physical incapacitation of some sort. Look at Dostoevsky, who couldn't manage himself and had gambling issues among other things:
    Plenty of EIIs drown themselves in drugs or fantasy lands or depressions, focusing on their own comfort or a fixation, as a coping mechanism or otherwise. I've seen EIIs have unhealthy attitudes towards sex, people, drugs, addictions, etc.
    Just because you do those things that doesn't mean you are unethical towards other human beings; you are only doing them for your self and not hurting others. If we realize we hurt others by our actions those things would weigh heavily on our hearts and we would strive to make things better. So what if we have physical incapacitations of any sort, depression is not easy to deal with. What we take upon our selves as a moral responsibility to others is a lot to for any one person to take up at any time.

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    I'm compelled to 'take shots' at her all the time because it's sort of nonstop baloney, but whatever.

    As for the brownies, yeah, you might be right.
    The robotic nature, though, it's strange. "Here, I made you brownies, because it's what EIIs do". :-/

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    Just because you do those things that doesn't mean you are unethical towards other human beings; you are only doing them for your self and not hurting others.
    Hmmm, I sort of felt like contributing to conversation for some reason.

    Do you really think it is simple as that? Doing those things can for instance have an adverse affect on friends, family, even partner, people who care about you and all that.

    I'm not convinced it's as easy as you portray here, perhaps?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu
    I'm compelled to 'take shots' at her all the time because it's sort of nonstop baloney, but whatever.
    Yeah, kinda like that myself, it's a strange one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu
    As for the brownies, yeah, you might be right.
    The robotic nature, though, it's strange. "Here, I made you brownies, because it's what EIIs do". :-/
    Yeah, I think that's the thing where it appears to me that she's got these really simple ideas of what types do so that means she (or others) do them.

    Robotic nature of it, sort of like the replica .... ever seen for instance the "Buffy-bot" from Buffy the Vampire slayer?

    Hmmm, maybe over time we'll get somewhere, strange situation and all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Hmmm, I sort of felt like contributing to conversation for some reason.

    Do you really think it is simple as that? Doing those things can for instance have an adverse affect on friends, family, even partner, people who care about you and all that.

    I'm not convinced it's as easy as you portray here, perhaps?
    I know that when I isolate myself when I am in depression, I hurt my mom, because she wants to see me, to talk to me and to be a part of my life; but, I feel like I will make it worse for myself not to shut myself out for a while; then, when I have gotten over the worst of the deal, I take her flowers and give her a lot of loving attention. People who know us understand this about us and take steps to help us. They, like our duals, protect us from excessive chores that cause the cycle in the first place.

    Delta men

    ISTp don't do many chores and are not too demanding so they free us up from excessive chores. Activity because of limited chores and not a shield from user people.
    ESTj rationally organize and eliminate excessive chores and make sure people who use us are not allowed to do so. Dual because they are a shield.

  32. #32
    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    Closest thing to an immoral INFj that I've come across was Morgan Freeman in some of his darker roles. He has played a violent criminal at one point and maffia godfather at another.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu
    Here, I made you brownies, because it's what EIIs do
    I'll make you some brownies Ryu.


    (I've never made a brownie in my life, but apparently this is a hidden skill of mine, hidden even to me. One could almost say I don't know my own strength....)

    EII - Ne
    5w6 sp/so/sx

  34. #34
    Trevor's Avatar
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    Him: Lupino



    The clip title translation: I've slept with hundred of women while in highschool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Labcoat
    Closest thing to an immoral INFj that I've come across was Morgan Freeman in some of his darker roles.
    I'm still bummed that he didn't get the oscar. I mean.....Nelson Mandela, come on guys..... how was that not oscar worthy?

    EII - Ne
    5w6 sp/so/sx

  36. #36
    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shagbag The Wizard View Post
    I'm still bummed that he didn't get the oscar. I mean.....Nelson Mandela, come on guys..... how was that not oscar worthy?
    He's not INFj. We don't advocate violence.

  37. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops
    Robotic nature of it, sort of like the replica .... ever seen for instance the "Buffy-bot" from Buffy the Vampire slayer?
    Has anyone considered the possibility that Maritsa is in fact some kind of bot/worm/malware, programmed specifically to seek out keywords in these threads and dump related text from various online sources.

    EII - Ne
    5w6 sp/so/sx

  38. #38
    Breaking stereotypes Suz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    You mean like how Joey from friends found his identical hand twin in Vegas?


    exactly. I fail to see the relevance of Maritsa's statement. The twin from Rwanda can be IEI too. . .so
    Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx

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    aka Slacker Slacker's Avatar
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    When people are immoral or unethical or mean, they use their strong functions. EIIs use Fi, so they can threaten relationship status unless people do what they want, often from what I've seen by using guilt. Also, I've seen them be very passive aggressive, which I think is a reaction to very weak Se.

    People of all types have the potential to be good or bad.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

  40. #40
    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mariella View Post
    When people are immoral or unethical or mean, they use their strong functions. EIIs use Fi, so they can threaten relationship status unless people do what they want, often from what I've seen by using guilt. Also, I've seen them be very passive aggressive, which I think is a reaction to very weak Se.

    People of all types have the potential to be good or bad.
    No, we don't ever ask people to do what we want, unless we are dating someone who doesn't have an education; in that case we nag them to get one. INTp use guilt, I never do.

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