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Thread: Stages of Duality in the Alpha Dyads

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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    Default Stages of Duality in the Alpha Dyads

    In this thread, there was an interesting discussion on the stages that Duality goes through, and I'm interested in looking at it from a specifically Alpha angle. For those of you who have had experience with some or all of these stages of Dualization, in what order did they play out, and in what way? I'm curious if there's any consistent pattern for the different types and dual pairs, as the article suggests. I'm especially interested in getting an ESE perspective on this, if there happens to be any of them hanging around here, say after having returned from a long absence...

    I'll post my own (somewhat limited) experiences below.

    Quote Originally Posted by G. Shulman View Post
    Socionics researchers studying the development of dual relations found it had eight common stages.

    Not always occurring in the same order depending on the Quadra and which dual pair.

    As not to be confused with the way other relationships develop, refer to these common characteristics.

    It is especially important because the dual contact is worthwhile.

    So be attentive to it.





    1. The sensing a necessity to meet again. You notice this afterwards, after your first contact. It is something unconscious, perceptive and mysterious. An inevitable feeling as if you need to meet this person again. Unexpectedly, they attached to something within you. Suddenly you begin to understand that you really need to see this person. If you do something, your thoughts are about this person.



    2. A Persons who for the first time in their life finds themselves in dual contact tries to remember: “Where could have we meet with before?!” (Of course, it is uselessly). Nevertheless, both are sure they have known each other for many years.



    3. The sensation of safety appears for both duals. You observe this sensation and you cannot mix it with something up. A sensation of amazing and undisturbed composure describes this. It happens in the moment, a forming of common atmosphere; it can be easy felt, you intuitively know.



    4. Both duals begin to feel simultaneously and equally the “impossibility” to be separated even for short time. It is very an exact and very real sensation of dual contact.



    5. Both duals feel something like an internal joy, that fills up the soul. The smile on your face appears like a quiet happy smile of conciliation and rest.

    The joy as behavior reaction is one of most accurate characteristic of dual dyad. This joy can appear without any certain reason. (Duals can laugh even without any certain reason just looking to each other. This joy arises like from sub consciousness – J.S.)



    6. Little by little, both duals begin to feel, the need for maximum and close contact. If persons are not married, then it’s a good start for relations. If both duals have their own families, it is hard to keep their families. It is interesting that it is just natural evolution of the situation. It happens spontaneously like a “matter-of-course”…



    7. The leveling of dual energy. This phenomenon appears almost immediately. The duals should just to be together, just to seat close by, sometimes even without touching each other. The maximum term for leveling of dual energy – 40 minutes (it is a result of investigation) and after that duals renew their energy. It does not depend on the depth of the “energy hole”.



    8. This is most interesting stage. Duals cannot describe their feelings. You feel so comfortable, so at ease, it is as if you feel nothing at all…Sometimes it is impossible to notice the presence of your dual. Sometimes you completely forget about your dual all, then suddenly you see your dual!!! (How could I forget about them???)
    For my part, I've known at least four ESEs with whom I've experienced at least a few of these stages of Duality: a choir instructor of mine, an aunt, a former co-worker, and a girl from church. For whatever reason, they're all female. Perhaps attraction plays a role, even in cases where there is clearly no possibility of or desire for a pairing? I've also known some other ESEs with whom I've never been close enough to experience any of these stages.

    In my experience, from a distance the ESE appears admirable and fun, but too busy and popular to pay any attention to me. After interacting a bit, however, the first stage to appear is Stage 3 -- a strange feeling of safety, like this person is "on my side". I feel like I know and understand this person in a way that nobody else seems to. I've never had the "Where do I know you from" feeling of confusion that Stage 2 describes, but there is this peculiar feeling of understanding -- like I can just glance at this person and know what she's thinking, or if she's struggling to explain something, I immediately understand and can finish explaining for her. There's this subtle "us against the world" feeling, well before the relationship is remotely close enough to warrant it.

    The next stage to appear, I think, is Stage 7, the leveling of Dual energy. This seems to happen after somewhat longer periods of one-on-one or mostly one-on-one interaction, say 5-10 minutes or more. It's this relaxed feeling of calmness and stillness, where I no longer feel internally stretched and drained from the stress of social interaction and Super-Ego-related worry. I feel stronger and more able to take on the world.

    This is followed naturally by Stage 5, the feeling of internal joy. I've reached this stage with only two of the four ESEs under consideration. It's pretty great. I've been known to dance a jig afterwards.

    Somewhere in there, Stage 1 occurs -- the sensation of a necessity to meet again. It's subtle at first, but it grows stronger and stronger, until eventually, at some point after the internal joy thing, it turns into Stage 4, the feeling of the "impossibility" of being separated even for a short time. I've experienced this with only one ESE, and it's been quite unpleasant, as the feeling of separation being impossible even for a short time does not actually prevent separation, even for a long time. Also, despite what the article says, it seems that this "impossibility" is not necessarily simultaneous or equal in both duals. Ah, woe is me.

    I haven't really experienced stages 6 or 8 in any significant way, so far.

    So yeah, I'm particularly interested in how ESEs experience all this, since as an LII I find it nearly impossible to tell what other people are really feeling. I'm also interested in how ILE and SEI experiences compare -- while there's obviously a personal element to my interest in all this, I am also genuinely interested in the underlying mechanisms. So what say you?
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Creepy-male

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    "Duality sounds strangely like love."

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    Executor MatthewZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian View Post
    "Duality sounds strangely like love."
    Because I have a fetish for all things converse, inverse, and contrapositive:

    "Love sounds strangely like duality."

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    Snomunegot munenori2's Avatar
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    Crap, I think I met a dual . I randomly met her last thursday when she popped into the office and automatically liked the girl. My SLE/EIE/ESE/whatever friend invited her to a party and at first she was kind of reluctant since she doesn't drink anymore since she got AP about a year back. Then I was all, "Aw, you could still come and hang out though. It'll be fun!" and we sort of made full on eye contact and something inexplicable twisted inside (like omg this girl is not like every other girl I've met) and she grinned, shrugged in an over the top way and said maybe. I wasn't holding my breath since she had a bf.

    And she SHOWED, sans boyfriend. I almost spat beer when she walked through the door. Honestly though lol, I immediately went into shy mode, but we kept making eye contact and I was reasonably not sober so I said fuck it and plopped next to her and made retarded small talk. Stupid things like, "So where do you work? I haven't seen you around before" which was deep down my way of trying to figure out a way to see her again. She kept getting annoyed that her friend was texting her to make sure she wasn't "making bad decisions" *exaggerated wink at me* and I just shrugged, smiled, and said it was awesome to have friends that look out for you. At about that point I got drafted into a flip cup game and by the time it was over she was nowhere to be seen. That was when some kind of hilarious guy I work with told me my girl left and I was all, "Who? You mean A" and he retorted "Yeeeeeep".

    Then apparently I did more drunk texting than I thought because my friend that threw the party was telling me today that I sent him something along the lines of "idc if she has a bf, A was banging. She's got that sexy librarian thing going on".
    Moonlight will fall
    Winter will end
    Harvest will come
    Your heart will mend

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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MatthewZ View Post
    Because I have a fetish for all things converse, inverse, and contrapositive:

    "Love sounds strangely like duality."
    This.

    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    Crap, I think I met a dual . I randomly met her last thursday when she popped into the office and automatically liked the girl. My SLE/EIE/ESE/whatever friend invited her to a party and at first she was kind of reluctant since she doesn't drink anymore since she got AP about a year back. Then I was all, "Aw, you could still come and hang out though. It'll be fun!" and we sort of made full on eye contact and something inexplicable twisted inside (like omg this girl is not like every other girl I've met) and she grinned, shrugged in an over the top way and said maybe. I wasn't holding my breath since she had a bf.

    And she SHOWED, sans boyfriend. I almost spat beer when she walked through the door. Honestly though lol, I immediately went into shy mode, but we kept making eye contact and I was reasonably not sober so I said fuck it and plopped next to her and made retarded small talk. Stupid things like, "So where do you work? I haven't seen you around before" which was deep down my way of trying to figure out a way to see her again. She kept getting annoyed that her friend was texting her to make sure she wasn't "making bad decisions" *exaggerated wink at me* and I just shrugged, smiled, and said it was awesome to have friends that look out for you. At about that point I got drafted into a flip cup game and by the time it was over she was nowhere to be seen. That was when some kind of hilarious guy I work with told me my girl left and I was all, "Who? You mean A" and he retorted "Yeeeeeep".

    Then apparently I did more drunk texting than I thought because my friend that threw the party was telling me today that I sent him something along the lines of "idc if she has a bf, A was banging. She's got that sexy librarian thing going on".
    So which, if any, of the stages there would you say you experienced? It rather sounds like you're already experiencing Stage 1...
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Fabelie's Avatar
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    These stages of duality almost seem too good to be true. :\ I'm not sure how I feel about this. hmm.
    *insert witty comment here*

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    constant change electric sheep's Avatar
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    I know the first stage really well. It seems to take a bit of intervention or a bit of luck to get past that. Without it, there's just a really loose bond between us that really is there, but it's like every brief contact we have with each other, it's there, it's fantastic, and then it's gone.
    The saddest ESFj

    ...

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    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fabelie View Post
    These stages of duality almost seem too good to be true. :\ I'm not sure how I feel about this. hmm.
    Well, it is too good to be true insofar as this doesn't actually happen with most duals. But it does accurately describe a potential development of very very good (ideal?) human relationships, which is most easily (only?) achieved in dual pairs. But no, this isn't going to just magically happen with the first person you find that's the right type, nor is it going to happen immediately; you may know the person, you may even be friends, for a long time before any of the real fireworks happen, and if/when they do, there's no real explanation for why it especially clicks with one dual and not the other. Duality is more of a necessary than a sufficient condition for the sort of relationship described, or, more accurately, duality is one of the factors that makes it especially likely that such a relationship will be achieved, but not the only factor by any means.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

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    Snomunegot munenori2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    So which, if any, of the stages there would you say you experienced? It rather sounds like you're already experiencing Stage 1...
    1, 3, 5 and a bit of 2.
    Moonlight will fall
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    Harvest will come
    Your heart will mend

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    I agree with everyone who says it takes work just like every other relationship. Although, with the right dual the work is rather pleasant. I'm not speaking from experience though.
    You can do anything with a bayonet except sit on it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    I'm not speaking from experience though.
    Damnit, jxrtes! You better, dude.
    Moonlight will fall
    Winter will end
    Harvest will come
    Your heart will mend

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    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    Damnit, jxrtes! You better, dude.
    Nah! I'm not very much into commitment or any of that fancy relationship stuff.
    You can do anything with a bayonet except sit on it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    Nah! I'm not very much into commitment or any of that fancy relationship stuff.
    Buuuuuulllshit
    Moonlight will fall
    Winter will end
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    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    Buuuuuulllshit
    ts true. Fi PoLR. I just snatch and run.
    You can do anything with a bayonet except sit on it.

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    I had words here once, but I didn't feed them Khola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fabelie View Post
    These stages of duality almost seem too good to be true. :\ I'm not sure how I feel about this. hmm.
    I agree, it sounds like grandiose idealism to me.
    Hello, my name is Bee. Pleased to meet you .



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    Quote Originally Posted by Khola View Post
    I agree, it sounds like grandiose idealism to me.
    I've been through this, and not even with a Dual.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian View Post
    I've been through this, and not even with a Dual.
    You also saw a UFO though.
    "Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubicon View Post
    You also saw a UFO though.
    lol.
    *insert witty comment here*

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    I could probably shoehorn my experiences to fit these stages, but I'd rather not.

    I'm short on time but I'll try to be as detailed as I can in the few minutes I have to spare.

    Let me start with the most significant dualization experiences I've had. First, there was the ESE from high school. It was so strange - we hung out in totally different cliques, me with the chess club (mainly ILIs, who beat me silly, one other LII guy) and her with her cheerleader friends but I felt like it was her and I against the world, we didn't speak much, but when we did, it seemed like we didn't have to. We understood each other in a way that felt like we had known each other for years - a lifetime even. She'd generally avoid speaking to me when her friends were around - they didn't like me much - but if I got her alone we'd sort of go into this bubble, not allowing anyone else into it.

    I eventually fell in love with her but didn't realise it. Weird, huh? In my mind we were too different, and I was expecting to end up with another introvert. Everyone else on the other hand noticed. They kept on making comments on how "playful" we were in each other's company (which strangely seemed to be PolR based, she'd pretend to be very Se and I'd pretend to be very Ni, which annoyed her, which I found really amusing.) Only after consistent comments from random people I saw that it was only me who hadn't realized the feelings I had for her yet.

    Gilly mentioned somewhere that Fe dual-seeking sometimes manifests itself by mimicking the behaviors of the Fe ego - that I can relate to. I often shocked myself picking up some of her mannerisms.

    Secondly, I have a cousin who is ESE, Fe subtype. This will probably be most useful to the other LIIs. I don't see her too often, but now that I'm all clued up on socionics, I take every meeting with her as another opportunity to understand duality a little more. She has similar dreams and ambitions to me, which is awesome, I often consider everyone else's ideals to be incredibly silly. We walked around in a shopping center once (she dragged me there) and she decided she was going to talk about some relationship issues she was having. To cut a long story short, she would spit out the details of random events and then just stop and stare at me. I assumed she wanted me to pat here on the back and say, there there, you'll be okay. I mean, it's what she usually does when I behave in an emo way so I assumed she wanted the same thing, only to realize after reading some posts on this forum that it was probably her Ti-seeking trying to get me to make sense of her situation for her.

    Another thing she does: if we're at a party, I generally move away from the crowd to a spot which is more quiet, and I put my earphones on and listen to my metal (I hate the rap rubbish they usually seem to play around here) but she will come find me and drag me back into everyone else's company, where the Fe is at. She can't stand the feeling that I'm being left out.

    She seems to have this freaky understanding of how my mind works. For example, she'd invite me to some sort of shared recreational activity. My focus will always be on the "point" of the activity. For example, knitting. I'd say, but winter is so far away. She won't try to rationalize why we need to knit anyway, she gets that i'm not seeing that it is more about the social interaction than the activity itself, and she will point this out.

    That's all for now, I'll come and be analytical later.
    LII

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    constant change electric sheep's Avatar
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    Zed, you're such a nice guy and I hate to call you out like this, but you're SEI.

    You're confusing your intelligence and your lack of social grace for something that's type related. You're shy, you're nice, you're smart, but you're no LII.
    The saddest ESFj

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    Quote Originally Posted by electric sheep View Post
    Zed, you're such a nice guy and I hate to call you out like this, but you're SEI.

    You're confusing your intelligence and your lack of social grace for something that's type related. You're shy, you're nice, you're smart, but you're no LII.
    This completely spoils the cathartic moment I was having whilst reading his post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by electric sheep View Post
    Zed, you're such a nice guy and I hate to call you out like this, but you're SEI.

    You're confusing your intelligence and your lack of social grace for something that's type related. You're shy, you're nice, you're smart, but you're no LII.
    Hehe. I don't mind. I was going to start a thread but I thought I should post more before asking for opinions.

    I am still quite sure I'm LII though - the things that make me doubt can easily be explained away, but I'll see what the rest of you have to say first.
    LII

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zed View Post
    Gilly mentioned somewhere that Fe dual-seeking sometimes manifests itself by mimicking the behaviors of the Fe ego - that I can relate to. I often shocked myself picking up some of her mannerisms.
    That's probably true of all dual dyads.

    Oh, and welcome.
    You can do anything with a bayonet except sit on it.

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    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    That's probably true of all dual dyads.

    Oh, and welcome.
    I was just about to say, whatever, I never act Se, but then I thought about it, and actually it is true to a small degree, insofar as Se egos free me to be a little more self-asserting and outwardly "strong," apply the force of my personality (more an Fe thing, perhaps, but I dunno, I associate certain uses with Se), etc. Also, Se egos always like it when I do something impressive that implies some sort of strong capability or something, which does in some way imply power, perhaps. But then I was thinking that you shouldn't act too Se, because then it could be all clash of wills-y, and the beauty of the SLE-IEI duality is that there isn't a clash of wills, there's one strong volitional force and another that sort of unconsciously or subtly influences things in a way that somehow remains passive while being active somehow kinda? Yeah, it's really cool.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

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    constant change electric sheep's Avatar
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    Though your story is very sweet and I liked it a lot, there are a few issues I have. The problem is that in some cases it can be very difficult to tell the difference between LII or SEI. I also think that SEIs are among the most vulnerable to stereotyping because they don't always speak up for themselves, and usually it's the "all knowing" NTs that more or less dictate what the SFs are, based on their unquestionable observations.

    Anyway, SEIs are really hard to pin down, so I'll do my best. (it's even difficult for an SEI)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zed View Post
    I could probably shoehorn my experiences to fit these stages, but I'd rather not.

    I'm short on time but I'll try to be as detailed as I can in the few minutes I have to spare.

    Let me start with the most significant dualization experiences I've had. First, there was the ESE from high school. It was so strange - we hung out in totally different cliques, me with the chess club (mainly ILIs, who beat me silly, one other LII guy) and her with her cheerleader friends but I felt like it was her and I against the world, we didn't speak much, but when we did, it seemed like we didn't have to. We understood each other in a way that felt like we had known each other for years - a lifetime even. She'd generally avoid speaking to me when her friends were around - they didn't like me much - but if I got her alone we'd sort of go into this bubble, not allowing anyone else into it.
    I don't think ESEs are like this. They always seem to be so proud of who they're dating. ILEs have a much looser definition of relationships and are much more likely to do something like what you describe. ILEs lack the confidence in their relationship that ESEs just ooze, and you don't pressure them to demonstrate it--thus this completes the dualization. Take VixenFoxDog for example. She's always singing her dual's praises, right? Your girl is different though.

    I eventually fell in love with her but didn't realise it. Weird, huh? In my mind we were too different, and I was expecting to end up with another introvert. Everyone else on the other hand noticed. They kept on making comments on how "playful" we were in each other's company (which strangely seemed to be PolR based, she'd pretend to be very Se and I'd pretend to be very Ni, which annoyed her, which I found really amusing.) Only after consistent comments from random people I saw that it was only me who hadn't realized the feelings I had for her yet.
    The polr is a blind spot. I think that if someone jokes about it, you probably wont "get" it and if you have to think about it, then you aren't being dualized. That's not my point though--this love formed very organically almost without any sort of turning point where you knew "ok now we are in love". Again, there's no pressure, no expectations, just a "flow". That would put you in irrational territory. LIIs need to know where their relationships stand, and ESEs are the ones that give them constant status reports. If you had any expectations like that, I'm starting to think that girl would have run off, scared of being stuck in a committment. (that's what I'm starting to notice with my relationships anyway, ILEs get spooked when you try to get a committment out of them)

    Gilly mentioned somewhere that Fe dual-seeking sometimes manifests itself by mimicking the behaviors of the Fe ego - that I can relate to. I often shocked myself picking up some of her mannerisms.
    ILEs look very closely for emotional cues from you. They rely on your rich vocabulary of facial expressions because it puts them at ease. LIIs don't really mirror their ESE duals as much. They remain fairly unexpressive, but somehow the ESE has the confidence that they are still hitting all the right notes with them. ILEs, on the other hand, need constant feedback that they are doing everything right. It's like your quiet way of controlling the mood and you're doing it with Si. Having that uber-expressive face is more helpful than you might be aware of. When someone is talking to you, they see immediately if they're being understood, or if you get the joke, or if they just offended you, or whatever. ESEs don't really need that, although everyone appreciates it to some degree. I remember I had this one ESE teacher that said my constant feedback actually made her nervous. So maybe LIIs need constant verbal assurance while ILEs need constant nonverbal assurance.

    Whenever I'm around my dual, I'm relaxed enough to where I can start speaking my mind and making jokes that I know he/she wont be judgemental of. I've said it many times: Bad jokes are funny too.


    Secondly, I have a cousin who is ESE, Fe subtype. This will probably be most useful to the other LIIs. I don't see her too often, but now that I'm all clued up on socionics, I take every meeting with her as another opportunity to understand duality a little more. She has similar dreams and ambitions to me, which is awesome, I often consider everyone else's ideals to be incredibly silly. We walked around in a shopping center once (she dragged me there) and she decided she was going to talk about some relationship issues she was having. To cut a long story short, she would spit out the details of random events and then just stop and stare at me. I assumed she wanted me to pat here on the back and say, there there, you'll be okay. I mean, it's what she usually does when I behave in an emo way so I assumed she wanted the same thing, only to realize after reading some posts on this forum that it was probably her Ti-seeking trying to get me to make sense of her situation for her.
    Another thing she does: if we're at a party, I generally move away from the crowd to a spot which is more quiet, and I put my earphones on and listen to my metal (I hate the rap rubbish they usually seem to play around here) but she will come find me and drag me back into everyone else's company, where the Fe is at. She can't stand the feeling that I'm being left out.

    She seems to have this freaky understanding of how my mind works. For example, she'd invite me to some sort of shared recreational activity. My focus will always be on the "point" of the activity. For example, knitting. I'd say, but winter is so far away. She won't try to rationalize why we need to knit anyway, she gets that i'm not seeing that it is more about the social interaction than the activity itself, and she will point this out.

    she seems more like an ESE, but it doesn't seem like duality either. It seems like she's focused on being social while you just want to have fun (competitions can be fun too) and she's not helping you, she's correcting you. Compare this to the other girl that would avoid talking to you when she was around her friends, your cousin doesn't seem as content to leave you on the sidelines while she socializes. You sound like you want to sit down and tune everything out because you don't like the music, not because you feel awkward or anything like that. You could say that's putting preference for Si over Fe.


    That's all for now, I'll come and be analytical later.
    ok hopefully some of that made sense
    The saddest ESFj

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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    electric sheep, as much as I respect you, I think you're a little off base here. I see no reason to doubt Zed's LII-ness; my own impression of him so far is H-LII.

    Quote Originally Posted by electric sheep View Post
    I don't think ESEs are like this. They always seem to be so proud of who they're dating. ILEs have a much looser definition of relationships and are much more likely to do something like what you describe. ILEs lack the confidence in their relationship that ESEs just ooze, and you don't pressure them to demonstrate it--thus this completes the dualization. Take VixenFoxDog for example. She's always singing her dual's praises, right? Your girl is different though.
    Not all ESEs are as confident as they may seem, especially in a high school setting. They can sometimes be too concerned about the opinions of people who don't matter, as in the case Zed describes. My own experience mirrors his -- it can be hard to get an ESE's attention when there are too many other people around, especially if those people are more outgoing than you are.

    Quote Originally Posted by electric sheep View Post
    The polr is a blind spot. I think that if someone jokes about it, you probably wont "get" it and if you have to think about it, then you aren't being dualized. That's not my point though--this love formed very organically almost without any sort of turning point where you knew "ok now we are in love". Again, there's no pressure, no expectations, just a "flow". That would put you in irrational territory. LIIs need to know where their relationships stand, and ESEs are the ones that give them constant status reports. If you had any expectations like that, I'm starting to think that girl would have run off, scared of being stuck in a committment. (that's what I'm starting to notice with my relationships anyway, ILEs get spooked when you try to get a committment out of them)
    The Demonstrative function is known for being the function people joke around with and don't take very seriously. This is what Zed is describing. It particularly sounds like H-LII and C-ESE, who focus more on Ni and Se respectively than other subtypes do.

    Unless I misinterperet Zed's story, the relationship never progressed far enough for the "status reports" thing to become an issue. Irrational subtypes would be somewhat less rigid about that sort of thing, anyway (although it would still be an issue).

    Quote Originally Posted by electric sheep View Post
    ILEs look very closely for emotional cues from you. They rely on your rich vocabulary of facial expressions because it puts them at ease. LIIs don't really mirror their ESE duals as much. They remain fairly unexpressive, but somehow the ESE has the confidence that they are still hitting all the right notes with them. ILEs, on the other hand, need constant feedback that they are doing everything right. It's like your quiet way of controlling the mood and you're doing it with Si. Having that uber-expressive face is more helpful than you might be aware of. When someone is talking to you, they see immediately if they're being understood, or if you get the joke, or if they just offended you, or whatever. ESEs don't really need that, although everyone appreciates it to some degree. I remember I had this one ESE teacher that said my constant feedback actually made her nervous. So maybe LIIs need constant verbal assurance while ILEs need constant nonverbal assurance.

    Whenever I'm around my dual, I'm relaxed enough to where I can start speaking my mind and making jokes that I know he/she wont be judgemental of. I've said it many times: Bad jokes are funny too.
    My ESE choir teacher says that people are always surprised when she tells them how lively and boisterous her LII husband is when they're at home. One of the best parts of ESE-LII duality, for the LII, is that the ESE so expertly creates a positive Fe atmosphere, that the LII finally feels free to express his weak and vulnerable Fe that he normally hides from the world. Some LIIs, of course, show more Fe than others.

    Quote Originally Posted by electric sheep View Post
    she seems more like an ESE, but it doesn't seem like duality either. It seems like she's focused on being social while you just want to have fun (competitions can be fun too) and she's not helping you, she's correcting you. Compare this to the other girl that would avoid talking to you when she was around her friends, your cousin doesn't seem as content to leave you on the sidelines while she socializes. You sound like you want to sit down and tune everything out because you don't like the music, not because you feel awkward or anything like that. You could say that's putting preference for Si over Fe.
    I'd say that Zed's cousin sounds more like a D-ESE, the stereotypical "controlling" ESE. If Zed is in fact an Irrational subtype, that might explain why it sounds like she's correcting him more than is usual in Duality. The level of instinctive understanding Zed describes does seem consistent with Duality, to me.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    constant change electric sheep's Avatar
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    subtypes are a crutch

    To engage you in a purely logical debate would inevitably fail on my part, so I'll just appeal to common sense. If he is H-LII like you say, why could he not argue for himself? Why does he need an "identical" like you making these arguments for him? Don't you have faith in his understanding of socionics? Does he have faith in his own understanding of socionics? I hope you're not providing a cover for his weak Ti, because that would interfere with our understanding of zed's type, unless you already have your mind made up, in which case you have ceased to be objective and you've ruined the process.
    Last edited by electric sheep; 03-13-2010 at 10:09 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    That's probably true of all dual dyads.

    Oh, and welcome.
    Thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by electric sheep View Post
    subtypes are a crutch

    To engage you in a purely logical debate would inevitably fail on my part, so I'll just appeal to common sense. If he is H-LII like you say, why could he not argue for himself? Why does he need an "identical" like you making these arguments for him? Don't you have faith in his understanding of socionics? Does he have faith in his own understanding of socionics? I hope you're not providing a cover for his weak Ti, because that would interfere with our understanding of zed's type, unless you already have your mind made up, in which case you have ceased to be objective and you've ruined the process.


    I don't know the subject matter well enough to be debating it, I wouldn't say I have weak Ti. I'm not as educated as some of the other LII here, but that's a case of nature versus nurture.

    I'm going to guess at why you're so intent on typing me an SEI. You think I'm far too nice and ethically focused to be an LII. You don't see much Ti in my posts. You should remember I haven't been here all that long. I also avoid being overly formal, my prose could give you the wrong idea. Your conclusions are the result, it seems, of confirmation bias.

    I am embarrassingly nicer on this forum than I would be on any other, but I would say that's mainly because of context. Kam was incredibly friendly to me when I first arrived, and so were many other forum members. I reciprocated. Usually, I'm as AR as Ayn Rand (but not as AR as labcoat. )

    We both agree that I am Alpha. I am not ENTP: I notice the other ILE here think in a similar way to me, but they seem to be walking in reverse: they use their Ti to support their Ne, while I am the opposite. I am not ESE, my Ni is just too strong. What's left is SEI and LII. I'm going to use the same reasoning as before and say that I'm too adept at using Te, even if it means little to me, to be an SEI. I am going by the descriptions of these ellements as they are described on wikisocion and Socionics.com. If I am wrong, then those sites are as well.
    Last edited by Zed; 03-13-2010 at 06:44 PM.
    LII

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    constant change electric sheep's Avatar
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    ok I'm going to pull the experience card and say that I've been around longer, and you know we have a lot of the same experiences. I'm convinced we are identicals and you should be too. You see, it's not just your type I'm debating, it's my own. It took me a long time to figure out I wasn't LII and I suppose it's folly to expect you to get it in such a short amount of time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zed View Post
    I don't know the subject matter well enough to be debating it, I wouldn't say I have weak Ti. I'm not as educated as some of the other LII here, but that's a case of nature versus nurture.

    I'm going to guess at why you're so intent on typing me an SEI. You think I'm far too nice and ethically focused to be an LII. You don't see much Ti in my posts. You should remember I haven't been here all that long. I also avoid being overly formal, my prose could give you the wrong idea. Your conclusions are the result, it seems, of confirmation bias.
    Guessing my motives. Yes, I do that a lot when I'm arguing with people too, and you're wrong in this case. I would say this is a case of using SiFe in a debate because you're addressing my feelings rather than my thoughts. Of course, it doesn't work very well because like I've already told Krig, I wont engage him logically. All I can really say is "you made some good points" and leave it alone.

    You avoid being formal. There is a problem with this. LIIs are almost always formal. Look at krig, huginn, labcoat, et al. They are extremely formal in their posts. You don't have the same rigid thinking as they do, or at least you act like you don't.


    I am embarrassingly nicer on this forum than I would be on any other, but I would say that's mainly because of context. Kam was incredibly friendly to me when I first arrived, and so were many other forum members. I reciprocated. Usually, I'm as AR as Ayn Rand (but not as AR as labcoat. )
    Reciprocating like this could mean different things. What I'm getting from this is that you can be either nice or mean depending on the general emotional climate. You have been well received here and you're nice in return. So would you say you have a good grasp of the emotional climate? You must have one in order to respond properly. It seems like you don't need a lot of guidance because you are able to grasp how you are expected to act based on the way people act towards you. Do you think that's weak Fe or strong Fe? When you say you're usually AR (I'm assuming that relates to some kind of social ineptitude) it could just be because you are just responding to a different emotional climate. There could be all kinds of reasons why you act differently under different circumstances.

    We both agree that I am Alpha. I am not ENTP: I notice the other ILE here think in a similar way to me, but they seem to be walking in reverse: they use their Ti to support their Ne, while I am the opposite.
    Essentially we are our duals turned inside out. If you take out the jargon you used, you could see that you also described duality. When we talk about mirror relations, we emphasize different aspects of the same things. Like when it's you and your cousin together, you don't see the point in the activity (maybe a bit of Ip/Si laziness in there), but she said the point of the activity was just to socialize (Fe emphasis). That's a mirror disagreement imo. You aren't seeing eye to eye in a sense, like you do with ILEs. An ILE probably wouldn't want to participate in something that was "just to socialize" either.

    I am not ESE, my Ni is just too strong. What's left is SEI and LII. I'm going to use the same reasoning as before and say that I'm too adept at using Te, even if it means little to me, to be an SEI. I am going by the descriptions of these ellements as they are described on wikisocion and Socionics.com. If I am wrong, then those sites are as well.
    Well it's certainly possible that they are wrong, or maybe you're focusing on the wrong things. It's hard to find a good description of Te polr and there have been many attempts on this forum to make one, but it's really an elusive concept. It's possible that your strong Si grants you a certain resourcefulness that can be misinterpreted as strong Te. My interpretation of Te as polr went something like this:
    Can tolerate a nice, yet incompetent person, but never a rude, yet skillful one. Unable to see people as resources to be managed. Does not value efficiency at the cost of humanity. Does not always choose sources of information wisely, as ISFps are always willing to listen, and will not disregard someone known to be untrustworthy. Easily becomes overwhelmed when many, seemingly unrelated, facts are present.
    It's not the best, I'll give you that, but it at least half works. Maybe you should take a shot at how your role/polr functions express themselves.

    Well I hope I reached you in some way. What I've said might not mesh well with what you've read on other websites or with what the people here will say, and I completely understand if you choose to go with them over me, but I trust my own experience more than those websites or the NTs who claim to know what SEIs are like.
    The saddest ESFj

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    1. The sensing a necessity to meet again. You notice this afterwards, after your first contact. It is something unconscious, perceptive and mysterious. An inevitable feeling as if you need to meet this person again. Unexpectedly, they attached to something within you. Suddenly you begin to understand that you really need to see this person. If you do something, your thoughts are about this person.

    2. A Persons who for the first time in their life finds themselves in dual contact tries to remember: “Where could have we meet with before?!” (Of course, it is uselessly). Nevertheless, both are sure they have known each other for many years.

    3. The sensation of safety appears for both duals. You observe this sensation and you cannot mix it with something up. A sensation of amazing and undisturbed composure describes this. It happens in the moment, a forming of common atmosphere; it can be easy felt, you intuitively know.
    I think we got a taste of this.

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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timeless View Post
    Hmm. Reading that, I'm wondering if the speed at which relationships develop varies between types. I know another ILE-SEI couple who also say that things developed very quickly between them. If there's no correlation to types, then I wonder factors do influence this...
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    Crap, I think I met a dual . I randomly met her last thursday when she popped into the office and automatically liked the girl. My SLE/EIE/ESE/whatever friend invited her to a party and at first she was kind of reluctant since she doesn't drink anymore since she got AP about a year back. Then I was all, "Aw, you could still come and hang out though. It'll be fun!" and we sort of made full on eye contact and something inexplicable twisted inside (like omg this girl is not like every other girl I've met) and she grinned, shrugged in an over the top way and said maybe. I wasn't holding my breath since she had a bf.

    And she SHOWED, sans boyfriend. I almost spat beer when she walked through the door. Honestly though lol, I immediately went into shy mode, but we kept making eye contact and I was reasonably not sober so I said fuck it and plopped next to her and made retarded small talk. Stupid things like, "So where do you work? I haven't seen you around before" which was deep down my way of trying to figure out a way to see her again. She kept getting annoyed that her friend was texting her to make sure she wasn't "making bad decisions" *exaggerated wink at me* and I just shrugged, smiled, and said it was awesome to have friends that look out for you. At about that point I got drafted into a flip cup game and by the time it was over she was nowhere to be seen. That was when some kind of hilarious guy I work with told me my girl left and I was all, "Who? You mean A" and he retorted "Yeeeeeep".

    Then apparently I did more drunk texting than I thought because my friend that threw the party was telling me today that I sent him something along the lines of "idc if she has a bf, A was banging. She's got that sexy librarian thing going on".
    schweeet! now, about this girl. happened?

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    Hmm. Reading that, I'm wondering if the speed at which relationships develop varies between types. I know another ILE-SEI couple who also say that things developed very quickly between them. If there's no correlation to types, then I wonder factors do influence this...
    How fast was it the couple you know? For us, I'd say we spent about an hour together since we first met there, and during that we got really comfortable with each other. After that she had to go—that was the worst part—then the rest of the stuff happened.

    That's an interesting point though; maybe a group of open-minded types are more likely to bypass (or simply being aware of) "social and societal conditioning," "rules of dating," and all of that stuff while more types are inclined to follow (or simply being unaware of) and stick through them. I guess with that said, one group can probably be "speedier" and one can be "slower" in that respect. What types exactly? I don't know, I'm still learning Socionics.

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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timeless View Post
    How fast was it the couple you know? For us, I'd say we spent about an hour together since we first met there, and during that we got really comfortable with each other. After that she had to go—that was the worst part—then the rest of the stuff happened.

    That's an interesting point though; maybe a group of open-minded types are more likely to bypass (or simply being aware of) "social and societal conditioning," "rules of dating," and all of that stuff while more types are inclined to follow (or simply being unaware of) and stick through them. I guess with that said, one group can probably be "speedier" and one can be "slower" in that respect. What types exactly? I don't know, I'm still learning Socionics.
    It wasn't quite that fast for them -- a couple of weeks, I think, until they were headlong in a serious relationship. Having thought about it some more, I think cultural factors, as well as personal history, play a pretty major role. If you've been hurt in the past in relationships, for example, you're going to be slower to open up. And if you have little to no experience with members of your dual type, it may take longer to realize what you've found, especially if you're unfamiliar with socionics. Plus, the conditions have to be right -- one-on-one communication for a significant length of time, to give the Duality time to do its thing.

    Still, even given all that, I have an intuitive feeling that Irrational types would tend to form relationships quicker. However, there's not really any way to substantiate that without a big survey.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    "Information without energy is useless" Nowisthetime's Avatar
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    Some of my experiences with ILE women, in the beginning of acquaintance, no particular order:

    - I'm able to look her in the eyes for longer times without having to look away or feeling awkward.

    - Silence doesn't feel awkward. This can be dangerous in the beginning, if I fail to show my interest because I simply feel so much at ease.

    - Generally, silence and talking alternate each other in a smooth way. The conversation takes care of itself.

    -Sitting face to face drinking coffee etc. with close distance works well. I've sometimes been surprised by this.

    - I can get frustrated if people talk too much. It's like I get drained from having to listen to them. But I usually don't have this problem with a talkative dual. Even though the topic doesn't always interest me, I'll still gladly listen to her.

    - Age doesn't seem to matter that much. I have experienced the above with women who are a lot older than me. (50-80).

    EDIT: I have never had an ILE gf. Just some random people I've met: from school, work, relatives, friends of friends, some blind dates.

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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinocchio View Post
    So far, the only weird thing in the beginning was that I enjoyed looking at her, but immediately after I was looking in other direction her image was disappearing instantly, I was trying to remember her face and body but I could not. This annoyed me because the times I could not see her - work, etc - I had the constant feeling that nothing was real. Neither to this day I can't visualize her real image, apart from pictures, but not the real one.
    This happens to me, too. Actually, I think I tend to forget everybody's faces; it's just that I actually care about remembering the face of my dual, and get distressed/annoyed when I can't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nowisthetime View Post
    Some of my experiences with ILE women, in the beginning of acquaintance, no particular order:

    - I'm able to look her in the eyes for longer times without having to look away or feeling awkward.

    - Silence doesn't feel awkward. This can be dangerous in the beginning, if I fail to show my interest because I simply feel so much at ease.

    - Generally, silence and talking alternate each other in a smooth way. The conversation takes care of itself.

    -Sitting face to face drinking coffee etc. with close distance works well. I've sometimes been surprised by this.

    - I can get frustrated if people talk too much. It's like I get drained from having to listen to them. But I usually don't have this problem with a talkative dual. Even though the topic doesn't always interest me, I'll still gladly listen to her.
    I've experienced the bolded ones as well. Especially the last one. I can remember thinking to myself "I don't actually care about anything she's saying. And yet, I could sit here forever and just listen."
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Default dysfunctional duality - fatal attraction

    duality can be a life altering experience in a most positive way but depending on prior experiences, even duals can screw it up - a shared experience in my own estimation. What is meant by these words is if you have had a number of bad experiences prior to meeting your dual well that can distrubt and prevent duality manifesting into a loving relationship. On this forum the stages of duality is listed but on another website, wikisocionics, they mention that duals need to break through psychological barriers in order for duality to occur. In other words even if your dual is asking for your hand in marriage or simply to go on a date but you have prior psychological issues like commitment or intimacy issues then your likely to respond based more on psychological problems you have with yourself than based on psychological compatibility with your dual.

    What I'm talking about is subconsciously choosing the same type of person for dating and thereby predetermining the end result of the relationship. Here are a few common examples:

    A women who frequently dates assholes and then she questions her selection in men "why do I always attract assholes?". My opinion is she's subconsciously drawn to dating assholes because she has more success in terms of attracting them from the rest of the bunch. Admittedly 'asshole' is a emotionally loaded term but I do believe there is truth behind my opinion. Its as if you gave her a selection of fifty men to choose from and they were dressed and groomed all the same with differences in only their personality, she would subconsciously choose an insensitive, promiscuous, unfaithful man. That only begs the question why such men find her attractive? Perhaps she is immature, weak, shallow, dull, etc. Basically a certain type of man finds her attractive but not necessarily for the right reasons.

    Men do the same thing. I've fallen for women who are popular and to be honest with myself - I'm unpopular. This is not so much a case of psychological issues as it is with self-esteem. There is a sense of opposites attracting but in the end the result is the relationship crumbles (that is with my dual). Why? The choice being made is keeping social status determines more than individual preference. The upside to being unpopular is that I'm usually right about things because I'm not influenced by popular opinion nor have an agenda to push.

    One last example is a domineering woman who attracts weak willed, timid and emotionally vulnerable men. The woman will continually arouse such men because there is a certain degree of attraction in terms of sexual instict but as a matter of love and duality - no.

    I can cite other examples but instead I'll give counter-examples of duality being ineffectual. Just because she's your dual does not mean she likes you! Just because she's your dual does not mean she will appreciate you for who you really are. Just because she's you dual does not mean she will change her behaviour like become a better person. Just because she's your dual does not mean its meant to be. Just because she's your dual does not mean she can help you become a better person. Just because she's your dual does not mean the relationship has a better chance of survival. Just because she's your dual does not mean she will find you more attractive than other men. Just because she's your dual does not mean that will alter her choice in dating men. Get the drift?! I know from experience. INTJ - intuitive subtype.

    oh in case your wondering: Just because she's your dual sensory subtype does not change a thing if she is the ethical subtype.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chip View Post
    A women who frequently dates assholes and then she questions her selection in men "why do I always attract assholes?". My opinion is she's subconsciously drawn to dating assholes because she has more success in terms of attracting them from the rest of the bunch. Admittedly 'asshole' is a emotionally loaded term but I do believe there is truth behind my opinion. Its as if you gave her a selection of fifty men to choose from and they were dressed and groomed all the same with differences in only their personality, she would subconsciously choose an insensitive, promiscuous, unfaithful man. That only begs the question why such men find her attractive? Perhaps she is immature, weak, shallow, dull, etc. Basically a certain type of man finds her attractive but not necessarily for the right reasons.
    Vicitim

    Quote Originally Posted by chip View Post
    Men do the same thing. I've fallen for women who are popular and to be honest with myself - I'm unpopular. This is not so much a case of psychological issues as it is with self-esteem. There is a sense of opposites attracting but in the end the result is the relationship crumbles (that is with my dual). Why? The choice being made is keeping social status determines more than individual preference. The upside to being unpopular is that I'm usually right about things because I'm not influenced by popular opinion nor have an agenda to push.
    Introvert

    Quote Originally Posted by chip View Post
    One last example is a domineering woman who attracts weak willed, timid and emotionally vulnerable men. The woman will continually arouse such men because there is a certain degree of attraction in terms of sexual instict but as a matter of love and duality - no.
    Aggressor

    Quote Originally Posted by chip View Post
    I can cite other examples but instead I'll give counter-examples of duality being ineffectual. Just because she's your dual does not mean she likes you! Just because she's your dual does not mean she will appreciate you for who you really are. Just because she's you dual does not mean she will change her behaviour like become a better person. Just because she's your dual does not mean its meant to be. Just because she's your dual does not mean she can help you become a better person. Just because she's your dual does not mean the relationship has a better chance of survival. Just because she's your dual does not mean she will find you more attractive than other men. Just because she's your dual does not mean that will alter her choice in dating men. Get the drift?! I know from experience. INTJ - intuitive subtype.
    Bitterness.

    BAM!
    ILI (FINAL ANSWER)

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