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Thread: Rational/Irrational dichotomy and a very essential inquiry

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    Default Rational/Irrational dichotomy and a very essential inquiry

    Is the distinction between said dichotomies actual? As currently articulated, or at least as what would be indicated by the traditional definitions of said dichotomies, I can only conceive of perception as a sub-classification of judgement, as all perceptions involve a judgement of some sort. Thus, it is blatantly obvious to me that said definitions need significant elaboration so as to make the dichotomy cohere in a sensible manner. Can someone clarify?
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    I can only conceive of perception as a sub-classification of judgement, as all perceptions involve a judgement of some sort.
    I can understand why you might think that one can be sure of that. But I'm not sure of it myself. What do you mean when you say that "all perceptions involve a judgement of some sort"?. What is meant by judgement here?

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    To make a conclusion of some sort on the qualities of something.

    And if you are to attempt to define perception as something that merely involves the apprehension of particular qualities of an object, then one comes into direct contradiction with the definition of particular functions, as each perceptive function is described in such a way that indicates it judges the qualities in some way.

    I think perhaps we've come into contact with a rather devious translation mishap brought about by the popularization of the MBTI-like acronym within the Socionic realm. It still begs the question as to what the J/P---irrational/rational---dichotomy is.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic
    To make a conclusion of some sort on the qualities of something.

    And if you are to attempt to define perception as something that merely involves the apprehension of particular qualities of an object, then one comes into direct contradiction with the definition of particular functions, as each perceptive function is described in such a way that indicates it judges the qualities in some way.
    I don't think so. Perceiving functions really don't "label" things like judging functions. The difference is that judgement is more of a concious thought... more specific. Judgement reduces matters to numbers, words and letters. Peception is unaware of these things. It's wholly "visusal"; no words.

    I think that's one of the differences.
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    If there are multiple difference, then, how useful is it to treat J/P as a singular dichotomy whilst ignoring its constituent dichotomies?

    "I don't think so. Perceiving functions really don't "label" things like judging functions"

    There is an implicit labelling, however.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic
    If there are multiple difference, then, how useful is it to treat J/P as a singular dichotomy whilst ignoring its constituent dichotomies?
    I guess because all the differneces you could tie together?

    For example, there is a difference between the accepting/producing sides of judgers and perceivers. Perceivers life "rythm" is based more on taking in things through perception, while they turn on their judging side only sporadically when they need it to put things together. Judgers I think have more of a sequential and "rational" rythm, and perception only comes on when they need to explore the tangents or something (not quite sure how it works for a judger though, so don't crucify me).

    BUT, that doesn't seem to contradict with the first thing I said. They could very well go together.

    "I don't think so. Perceiving functions really don't "label" things like judging functions"

    There is an implicit labelling, however.
    True... but I guess that's the distinction that has to be made.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    "For example, there is a difference between the accepting/producing sides of judgers and perceivers. Perceivers life "rythm" is base more on taking in things through perception, while they turn on their judging side only sporadically when they need it to put things together. Judgers I think have more of a sequential and "rational" rythm, and perception only comes on when they need to explore the tangents or something (not quite sure how it works for a judger though, so don't crucify me). "

    That's more of an effect of a particular polarity of the J/P dichotomy, rather than properties which form J/P dichotomy itself.

    "True... but I guess that's the distinction that has to be made."

    Then we can conclude that a facet of the J/P dichtomy is the implicit judgement of objects at one end of the spectrum and the explicit judgement of objects at the other?
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    i think rocky is misunderstanding what you mean by "label." you mean things like white vs. green or round vs. square or soft vs. hard no? in such a case Si/e would be the ultimate "judging" function

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    That's precisely what I mean.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic
    That's more of an effect of a particular polarity of the J/P dichotomy, rather than properties which form J/P dichotomy itself.
    ... an example of how Judgers can be too wordy.

    Then we can conclude that a facet of the J/P dichtomy is the implicit judgement of objects at one end of the spectrum and the explicit judgement of objects at the other?
    Sure.

    For example, I know takes thigs in as more of "symbols" and takes things in as more of "impressions". INxP might have his judgement affected if the symbol is strong enough and becaomes personal to him. One of my Dad's symbols is being Jewish. Whenever he hears of a Jewish athlete, comedian, etc... it is important to him that they are Jewish. This has always annoyed me. ISxP on the other hand views individual people/things as good/evil. We may start to avoid someone, or turn them into more of a hero, but only after personal experience. But as Jung said, that they appear this way never enters our minds. It just "is".

    I would imagine this is different from the Judging funcitons.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vague
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    i think rocky is misunderstanding what you mean by "label." you mean things like white vs. green or round vs. square or soft vs. hard no? in such a case Si/e would be the ultimate "judging" function
    True, but as I said before, I considered a "label" words, numbers, or letters.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vague
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    a label is a label whether or not it is mediated

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    Then let's call it "concious" and "visual".
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    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    "... an example of how Judgers can be too wordy. Razz "

    No, you see, it's a very essentail issue as we are attempting to "tie all" of the facets of the J/P dichotomy together so as to arrive with something that's not a mere congolmeration of other dichotomies but is significant in somehow.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic
    "... an example of how Judgers can be too wordy. Razz "

    No, you see, it's a very essentail issue as we are attempting to "tie all" of the facets of the J/P dichotomy together so as to arrive with something that's not a mere congolmeration of other dichotomies but is significant in somehow.
    Ok, then just accept the BrainTyping view of where Judgement and Perception come from.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Then let's call it "concious" and "visual".
    freaking judgers

    the lines between the two are very blurry is what MS is saying

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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic
    An extreme Perceiving type will seem like they always have to fall back on their perception AND this means that they may seem like fumbling morons who can't bring things together in a consistant stream of thought. They may be more like, "Huh... what? What does that mean?" etc...

    An extreme Judging type will fall back on their Judging side which will make them seem like they can't accept anything outside of their perfect system. We called this INxJ syndrome with Hugo, but it applies to all Judgers. They may be more like, "the lines between the two are very blurry is what MS is saying."

    But in order to solve complex problems you brain is firing off both the judging and perceiving sides at the same time. This is why people who demonstrate stong J and P and go back and forth between the two may seem more intelligent or get more done then people who become lazy and fall to only one side.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vague
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    Ok? That doesn't really explain why one should treat it its facets as a congolmerate rather than viewing them as individual dichotomies. Simplicity for simplicity's sake is nonsensical.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    Are you propsing a new letter?
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    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    I'm proposing the deconstruction of the J/P dichotomy into its constituents.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    Hold on.

    I'll give my attempt later.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    Edited for gayness.
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    So a "rational function" is, what? A function that explicitly labels items?
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    Edited for gayness.
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    Default J/P Dichotomy Explained

    Do you think the generalization:
    Rational types verbal thinkers vs Irrational types visual/non-verbal thinkers holds water?

    Or what about the most basic difference in relationships?
    Rational types: I love You today, tomorrow and the day after tomorrow?
    Irrational type: I truly love You. Oops, sorry not anymore - but hey - tomorrow is another day...
    "Arnie is strong, rightfully angry and wants to kill somebody."
    martin_g_karlsson


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    "....err, maybe not, my bad...."

    So the J/P dichotomy just represents the use of one of a set of four functions from a greater set of eight?

    "Rational types verbal thinkers vs Irrational types visual/non-verbal thinkers holds water? "

    No.

    "Or what about the most basic difference in relationships?
    Rational types: I love You today, tomorrow and the day after tomorrow?
    Irrational type: I truly love You. Oops, sorry not anymore - but hey - tomorrow is another day..."

    No.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    Judging types are driven by things they can reduce to words, letters, and numbers. As Pedro said, it is "meditated"; verbal conciousness. Often times words are heard and understood, but visual quality given to any object is pushed aside to the secondary.

    What we are doing right now is "judgement" because we have already formulated opinions, made a clear decision on it, and are transforming that into understandable written form; words. This is why I have said in the past that people on boards like these tend to be a bit more reactive, emotional, and critical than in real life. We are using the judging side of our personality here.

    Judgement places actual, measurable value to things.

    It is more quantitiative as opposed to qualitative.

    Also, because they are governed more by meditated conciousness (or whatever you want to call it), their actions are seen as more "rational"; reasoning comes first. "I know".

    Perceivers put more of a "picture" or visualization onto something before understanding or recognizing the words. Words go more unheard until afterwords.

    "I don't know". Perceivers may be seen as more impulsive or unstructured because their actions don't seem to make sense. Because they lack concious thought, they only follow what they "feel". Whatever they feel like doing, their reasoning (judgement) follows that perception (perception holds the hand of judgment).

    So, Judgers have their perception defined by whatever judgement says. Perceivers have their judgement defined by whatever perception says.

    Also, as stated above, extreme reliance on judgement may mean that divergent perception is put off to the point of not seeing anything outside of the most rational decision. If it is quantified, then it is. Heavy perception may mean that the person does not "put things together"; convergance. Thought becomes unintelligable. Things only have qualified value, but no real measurable value. Labels connected to judgment are not comprehended.

    Solving problems requires the use of both perception and judgment, but the difference is what is most recognizable to start off with and what has to be flexed.

    ... see I can be J too...
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    Quote Originally Posted by vague
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    vision is media as well, duh. don't be silly

    /irritated

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    I think as long as Socionics keeps trying to stratify individual differences in perception instead of more socially-based differences, then it is a lost cause. Socionics seems to me more of a model of different ways of philosophical thinking than a model of something more useful.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    you also forgot that judgers are more picky and need a precise solution
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    Quote Originally Posted by vague
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    Well, it's not like I really wanted to sustain a debate. I just wanted to add my little comment and run away like the P type that I am. :wink:
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    vision is media as well, duh. don't be silly

    /irritated
    OK, fine... but can you still see the difference? Do you understand what I was talking about with this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Solving problems requires the use of both perception and judgment, but the difference is what is most recognizable to start off with and what has to be flexed.
    If you do, then I think that is a good base for J/P.


    *still ignoring the INTP*
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    "Judging types are driven by things they can reduce to words, letters, and numbers. As Pedro said, it is "meditated"; verbal conciousness. Often times words are heard and understood, but visual quality given to any object is pushed aside to the secondary. "

    How can you really say that, though? Perhaps the person is a visual thinker and symbolizes judgements with thought ala Theodosis(supposedly)?

    "What we are doing right now is "judgement" because we have already formulated opinions, made a clear decision on it, and are transforming that into understandable written form; words. This is why I have said in the past that people on boards like these tend to be a bit more reactive, emotional, and critical than in real life. We are using the judging side of our personality here. "

    Again, this tells me nothing of what perception is, as what you are attempting to convey as the J/P I am currently contesting on above grounds.

    "
    PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 11:20 pm Post subject:
    Judging types are driven by things they can reduce to words, letters, and numbers. As Pedro said, it is "meditated"; verbal conciousness. Often times words are heard and understood, but visual quality given to any object is pushed aside to the secondary.

    What we are doing right now is "judgement" because we have already formulated opinions, made a clear decision on it, and are transforming that into understandable written form; words. This is why I have said in the past that people on boards like these tend to be a bit more reactive, emotional, and critical than in real life. We are using the judging side of our personality here.

    "Judgement places actual, measurable value to things.

    It is more quantitiative as opposed to qualitative. "

    You've never heard of qualitative judgements? I think this is a fairly bad identifier.

    "Also, because they are governed more by meditated conciousness (or whatever you want to call it), their actions are seen as more "rational"; reasoning comes first. "I know". "

    This is hard to justify with the above in question.

    And, yeah, I have basically the same resposne to the rest of your post.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    you also forgot that judgers are more picky and need a precise solution
    why are you quoting me saying something i did not say?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    OK, fine... but can you still see the difference? Do you understand what I was talking about with this?
    I understand, yes. I am saying you are wrong. To put it in terminology you may be more comfortable with, if a P and a J type look at the same thing a reaction happens in their brain that 'interprets' the image. EVEN IF this occured in some word-symbol part of the brain in J types the image would not be more mediated than a similar process occuring in the "sensation" parts of a P brain. Of course this is all hogwash and I am using it only in an analogous sense.

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    ... so I guess this shows how INTJs make me look stupid when I try and write things down.

    But I have an example.

    Imagine you were giving directions to someone, they have to turn onto a highway and then find an exit. For argument sake let's say that the first exit that comes up is 8E and the second is 8W. Now, if it were someone like my J Mom was giving directions, she would say take "8W", but if you asked her, she would be unsure of whether that was the first or second one that comes up. I would say take the "second" one, but be unsure of what the exit was called.

    Do you see how this relates? Would you argue against this J/P distinction?

    I am under the impression that the number or word label comes secondary for the P type whereas the picture comes secondary for the J type. The P type must have a picture before he understands the quantified label and the J type must have number before he sees the picture.
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

  38. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic
    "Judging types are driven by things they can reduce to words, letters, and numbers. As Pedro said, it is "meditated"; verbal conciousness. Often times words are heard and understood, but visual quality given to any object is pushed aside to the secondary. "

    How can you really say that, though? Perhaps the person is a visual thinker and symbolizes judgements with thought ala Theodosis(supposedly)?
    ... does it not describe you?

    "What we are doing right now is "judgement" because we have already formulated opinions, made a clear decision on it, and are transforming that into understandable written form; words. This is why I have said in the past that people on boards like these tend to be a bit more reactive, emotional, and critical than in real life. We are using the judging side of our personality here. "

    Again, this tells me nothing of what perception is, as what you are attempting to convey as the J/P I am currently contesting on above grounds.
    So we are in perceiving mode even on the forum? Are we not more critical here then we would be if we were relaxing on a beach?

    "Judgement places actual, measurable value to things.

    It is more quantitiative as opposed to qualitative. "

    You've never heard of qualitative judgements? I think this is a fairly bad identifier.
    Does this have to do with socionics judgment?

    "Also, because they are governed more by meditated conciousness (or whatever you want to call it), their actions are seen as more "rational"; reasoning comes first. "I know". "

    This is hard to justify with the above in question.
    Hard to justify does not mean that it's not true.
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    ... so I guess this shows how INTJs make me look stupid when I try and write things down.

    But I have an example.

    Imagine you were giving directions to someone, they have to turn onto a highway and then find an exit. For argument sake let's say that the first exit that comes up is 8E and the second is 8W. Now, if it were someone like my J Mom was giving directions, she would say take "8W", but if you asked her, she would be unsure of whether that was the first or second one that comes up. I would say take the "second" one, but be unsure of what the exit was called.

    Do you see how this relates? Would you argue against this J/P distinction?

    I am under the impression that the number or word label comes secondary for the P type whereas the picture comes secondary for the J type. The P type must have a picture before he understands the quantified label and the J type must have number before he sees the picture.
    I do not think this has anything to do with type, hence nothing to do with J/P. It really has something to do with the communication skills and knowledge. In a given area, those that are more knowledgeable and more confident of their knowlege are more likely to state both the name and related information (such as which coming first in this example). Those that are not as knowledgeable or confident will not be able to recite as much, and the specific knowledge that a person cites depends on how the knowledge was acquired. In this were me, if I looked at the map, I would most likely remember the name of the exit. However, if I was driven there before and was a passenger admiring (or even daydreaming) the highway, I would probably remember the exit in terms of the orientation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    you also forgot that judgers are more picky and need a precise solution
    why are you quoting me saying something i did not say?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    OK, fine... but can you still see the difference? Do you understand what I was talking about with this?
    I understand, yes. I am saying you are wrong. To put it in terminology you may be more comfortable with, if a P and a J type look at the same thing a reaction happens in their brain that 'interprets' the image. EVEN IF this occured in some word-symbol part of the brain in J types the image would not be more mediated than a similar process occuring in the "sensation" parts of a P brain. Of course this is all hogwash and I am using it only in an analogous sense.
    ....

    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    Why is Cone an INTP?

    I dunno maybe he isn't, but he is not INTJ. He doesn't start with hypotheticals and go to conclusions based upon those hypotheticals but he starts at OBSERVATIONS and notices incosistencies within the observations and then makes logical statements about why such and such an observation cannot be a correct observation (ie questions the observational premise not the theorhetical per se). I on the other hand relate hypothetical statements to one another and say "this is what should be observed if the premises are true." He is TP not TJ.
    Isn't that what I have been saying?
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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