VI my mother (AGAIN)

[VixenDogFox]

So last year, when I used to post a ton, I asked people to VI my mom. But I never got too much or conclusive response that I recall and recently her type has been questioned. I think she is likely INFj. But she could be something else. I don't think she is ENFj... but I guess it's possible.

My dad is probably ESTp, so she might be a beta type. On the other hand, it's very likely they're mismatched as far as quadra goes. Please think of all the options. I know you will...

Also, please feel free to ask any relevant questions about her personality.

Here are a BUNCH of photos, in an attempt to get a really great VI:

[Morcheeba]

Your mom looks ENFj to me.

[Park]

Conflictors? Supervisors? Hmm...

[Morcheeba]

Can someone please describe first hand what an Ni-ENFj is like versus an Fe-ENFj? Just curious. My mom is painfully shy... Also, those of you who ascribe to the DCNH subtypes, please describe those ENFj subtypes. I mean, in real life, day to day terms. There seem to be a lot of ENFj's here, so I'm hoping to get first hand accounts.

One more thing: if my mom is EIE and I am ESE, would it make sense for me to have the experience wherein everytime I tell my mom I want to do something, I feel somewhat shot down? She is pretty supportive of ideas, but when I actually go to DO something, she really doesn't seem to like it. Also, I'm a songwriter, and everyone else in my life gives me more positive feedback than her... she seems not so into my stuff (except a small percentage) and tends not to hide this fact. Does that stuff point to EIE?

ENFj-fe subs. can almost appear like ESFj's... more bubbly, welcoming. ENFj-ni subs are more caustic, can appear like INTp's at first.

[Park]

The male there (my brother) is Ne-ENTp.

Yeah, I remember. He looks ILE > IEE and she looks XSI > XIE > I dunno... Ni-ENFj might work given your description.

[Morcheeba]

Parkster, how are we conflictors, but the same enneagram type?

[Morcheeba]

But INFj descriptions fit well, too...

Does your mom seem more open with her opinions, or more closed off, tight lipped? That would be a key difference. I work with an INFj and I don't think we're that similar but I guess I can see where there would be some confusion.

[Morcheeba]

One thing that could be either INFj or ENFj (I guess?) is the way her moods spread incredibly easily... in other words, she makes you feel just what she is feeling, even if she doesn't complain or open her mouth (though she always has acknowledged a tendency to complain).

She is very creative and artistic but always put her needs at the bottom, and because of this was always very frustrated and took it out on my dad through moods and dark depression which he would feel the brunt of.

This sounds like .

She describes herself, when prodded by me, as someone with a very rich internal life and says she wishes she could just lie around and dream all day. She always told us wonderful stories as we fell asleep.

[Krig the Viking]

My impression from the pictures, before I read Morcheeba's opinion, was of IEI. The only picture that looks very extraverted to me is the fourth one, in the restaurant. The others look pretty introverted, particularly the first, third, and eighth ones.

But yeah, I do agree, given the evidence you've presented so far, that Beta NF seems more likely than Delta NF.

Let's see... IEI would make her your ILE brother's Mirage, and your Supervisor. EIE would make her your ILE brother's Beneficiary, and your Kindred. I think your experience of feeling "shot down" all the time makes better sense with Supervision than Kindred. Plus, in my opinion Mirage makes more sense for your brother's relationship with her than does Benefit. In my own life, I've found it difficult to confide in my Beneficiaries, even when I'm close to them, but confiding in Mirage types is much easier.

If your mom is IEI, then she would be Duality with your SLE brother, and Super-Ego with your SLI brother. Contrast that with Activation with your SLE brother, and Conflict with your SLI brother. Which fits better?

Which brings up a good point -- does your mom get along better with your SLI brother, or your SLE brother? If those two brothers are accurately typed, there should be a significant difference in her relationships with them, depending on whether she's Delta NF or Beta NF.

[Beautiful sky]

Rick,

Many English versions of Socionics descriptions are incorrect. ISTp's have very high and varried emotions, display of emotions doesn't make a person an F type. INFj's suppress their emotions within them; you can't see their emotions unless they are experiencing something very traumatic and at such a high level that they will let one out, whereas ISTp's are emotionally sensitive and therefore mistyped. Fi is ethics of relationships not emotions. Emotions is better association of Fe, however induction of emotions from others, display of emotions, and emotional affirmation are all different categories. Dual pair ESTj and INFj work in conjunction to one another in this manner: ESTj don't display outer emotions (that's why they look "cold"), INFj suppress expression of outer emotions, dual pairs are a whole because INFj "feel" (remember what I said about this "feeling" as an extra sensory perception that we have not yet figured out or measured and I think it's either associated with chemicals of energy)the inner emotions of ESTj (without any outer display) and respond.

[Beautiful sky]

I'm starting to think my little brother is LSI now... but I dunno.
My mom and he get along very well. She knows just how to handle him.
I don't think my parents are duals either (which they would be if she were IEI). Also, when I'm around IEI's, I go into comedian mode, trying to charm them. But that doesn't happen around her. It's more like we misunderstand each other all the time.

So my guesses with the help of everybody and my own thoughts (this likely doesn't matter to you but it's just my way of clarifying it in my own mind):

Mom - ENFj normalizing
Dad - ESTp harmonizing
oldest brother (half) you don't know about - LIE possibly
blond older brother - ISTp (yes, I'm coming around to it... not sure though)
other brother - Ne-ENTp
little brother - ISTj
Me - ESFj harmonizing

Interestingly, I've always felt connected to my dad (more than my mom) and we are both harmonizing subtypes...

Your brother's might also be ISTp, and that may be why your mom knows how to "handle" them.

[Brilliand]

One more thing: if my mom is EIE and I am ESE, would it make sense for me to have the experience wherein everytime I tell my mom I want to do something, I feel somewhat shot down? She is pretty supportive of ideas, but when I actually go to DO something, she really doesn't seem to like it.

This sounds like her disliking your creative function, so yeah, EIE would make sense.

[Beautiful sky]

This sounds like her disliking your creative function, so yeah, EIE would make sense.

ESE and SLI make good friends, but that doesn't mean their values are the same and actions are included in the things that make sense for one type and don't for another; quadra specific values is the best explanation of this conflict.

[Marie84]

Mom - ENFj normalizing

blond older brother - ISTp (yes, I'm coming around to it... not sure though)

Do you notice any tension/communication issues between your mom and (possible) SLI brother?

[implied]

wow, she's really pretty. she reminds me a little of my own mom but i think my own mom is ENFj.

[redbaron]

Is that your dad in the blue shirt that says "yosemite" from 2005?

[redbaron]

Yep, that's him!

hot!

[redbaron]

Thanks. And he's your dual. Haha...

I know it!! and your description of him was awesome too.

[Krig the Viking]

Okay, so, I find when you've got a bunch of people like this, it's often helpful to look at the relationships involved and see if a pattern emerges. My Role Fi feels like it might normally be considered a little weird that I've carefully compiled all the relevant relationship-related information about a complete stranger's family and compiled it all into a relationship map, but this is for Science!

The relevant quotes:

John-Malia, John-Ezra

As an ESFj, I'm pretty clearly his Supervisor, and he has a great deal of difficulty dealing with our ESTp brother.

John-Danny

Does the [ENTp brother's] relationship with his "SLI" brother feel more like semi-duality, or say, supervision?

I'd say semi-duality. They were a pair growing up but occasionally had big blowups. Plus, I feel strongly that I'm the SLI's supervisor. I have to like back off from that behavior I notice it so much.

Danny-Mom

These two have had a smooth and easy relationship from the beginning on. I don't think I've EVER once seen them in conflict. My brother calls my mom every day (or more) and is happily married, so that's saying a lot. My brother always confided in my mom his deepest thoughts, feelings, and secrets.

I don't think they're duals. I don't know what relations they share exactly, but I'm having a hard time thinking Conflictors. Supervisors? MAYBE.

Ezra-Mom, Ezra Dad

My mom and Ezra (see above) experience some tension because he can be so cold and quick with words if it's a matter of business as to offend her at times though she does put up with it for a time. Ezra always looked up to my dad and tried to be just like him...

Malia-Mom

One more thing: if my mom is EIE and I am ESE, would it make sense for me to have the experience wherein everytime I tell my mom I want to do something, I feel somewhat shot down? She is pretty supportive of ideas, but when I actually go to DO something, she really doesn't seem to like it. Also, I'm a songwriter, and everyone else in my life gives me more positive feedback than her... she seems not so into my stuff (except a small percentage) and tends not to hide this fact. Does that stuff point to EIE?

Hmm... fascinating. I guess our terrible friction growing up makes sense if she's EIE (I had an EIE boyfriend and we fought incessantly -- mainly he would criticize me and I would rebel). We have lovely conversations and fun together now but we can set each other off SO easily. We fought badly when I was a teen.

I admire her so much and think she is really the most wonderful lady, and always have been frustrated the way we experience conflict...

Huh. A lot to think about. Interesting if I have Beta parents! No wonder my ENTp brother and I always felt like black sheep.

John-Mom

If you're talking about John (see above), then not really. He tends to get emotional when he's frustrated and she deals with him with patience and tact and is really good with him. He always talks to her and shares things (I say "always" meaning more than he shares things with others -- although he does tend to share things with me, too, but it's taken a long time for me to learn how not to set him off whereas my mom always knew how to handle him).

Mom-Dad

She is very creative and artistic but always put her needs at the bottom, and because of this was always very frustrated and took it out on my dad through moods and dark depression which he would feel the brunt of.

My dad is probably ESTp, so she might be a beta type. On the other hand, it's very likely they're mismatched as far as quadra goes. Please think of all the options. I know you will...

Mom-John, Mom-Dad, Malia-Dad

I'm starting to think my little brother is LSI now... but I dunno.
My mom and he get along very well. She knows just how to handle him.
I don't think my parents are duals either (which they would be if she were IEI). Also, when I'm around IEI's, I go into comedian mode, trying to charm them. But that doesn't happen around her. It's more like we misunderstand each other all the time.

[...]

Interestingly, I've always felt connected to my dad (more than my mom) and we are both harmonizing subtypes...

So here is the resulting map, based on the above quotes:

Does this look right?

To complete the map, how are relations between John and his dad, Danny and his dad, Danny and Ezra, and you and Ezra?

The next stage would be to plug in types and see how well the resulting intertype relations map matches this map.

[Brilliand]

Does this look right?

To complete the map, how are relations between John and his dad, Danny and his dad, Danny and Ezra, and you and Ezra?

The next stage would be to plug in types and see how well the resulting intertype relations map matches this map.

I'll go ahead with this. From this graph, we can conclude that:

• Ezra and John are in opposite quadras
• Dad and Ezra are in the same quadra
• Mom and John are in the same quadra

Hence:

• Ezra is ESTp
• John is ISTp
• Mom is INFj or ENFp

Of INFj and ENFp, which gets along better with ILEs than with ESEs? That would be ENFp.

• Ezra is ESTp
• John is ISTp
• Mom is ENFp

My original intention was to criticize this graph by finding a contradiction, but I couldn't find one (in fact there was exactly one solution). So... maybe this method is good. I'll withhold judgment for now. Note: I used Model A without DCNH here. I'm not sure whether DCNH is capable of changing matters or not...

[Krig the Viking]

I'll go ahead with this. From this graph, we can conclude that:

• Ezra and John are in opposite quadras
• Dad and Ezra are in the same quadra
• Mom and John are in the same quadra

Hence:

• Ezra is ESTp
• John is ISTp
• Mom is INFj or ENFp

Of INFj and ENFp, which gets along better with ILEs than with ESEs? That would be ENFp.

• Ezra is ESTp
• John is ISTp
• Mom is ENFp

My original intention was to criticize this graph by finding a contradiction, but I couldn't find one (in fact there was exactly one solution). So... maybe this method is good. I'll withhold judgment for now. Note: I used Model A without DCNH here. I'm not sure whether DCNH is capable of changing matters or not...

Awesome, those were my own leanings as well. I was actually quite surprised to see such a clear pattern emerging when I started putting the web together -- at this point it really looks like a Beta/Delta clash, with the Alphas in the middle/on the sidelines. The only difference here is that I arrived at the hypothesis of Malia's mom being IEE by reasoning that her descriptions of her parents' relationship didn't sound quite as openly clashing as a Conflict relationship, hence Super-Ego.

But I'm still interested to see if the remaining relationships have any effect on the web, and get Malia's (VixenDog's? DogFox's? VixenDogFox's?) feedback in general. I wouldn't want to call this any sort of final conclusion just yet.

[Marie84]

So here is the resulting map, based on the above quotes:

You are such an LII

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[munenori2]

Your mom looks like a major J to me. By that, I mean appraising, critical, high expectations, conclusive, judgemental, aiming for precision, directional, focused, and fond of ambitious goings-on.

I have not read this thread nor will I. So there!

[Krig the Viking]

I had more charts all ready to post, but then the power went out and I lost them. They were so intricate and beautiful, that it will take a while before I can find the heart to start re-creating them.

Always save your open files, people!

You are such an LII

Haha, I know, right? I'm afraid it's incurable.

[silverchris9]

I had more charts all ready to post, but then the power went out and I lost them. They were so intricate and beautiful, that it will take a while before I can find the heart to start re-creating them.

Lo siento mucho. Your charts before were impressive, and kind of awesome.

Based on everything you've posted, the typings in the last post seem correct. I would vote EIE over IEI for your mom except that you said she was painfully shy... I think EIE works though. If your mom isn't EIE, then INFj is also possible. There was one pic of her where I got a delta vibe. But one would think there would be more evidence of a conflictor relationship between one's parents...?

[sarinana]

actually your mom in some pictures VIs like my mom. but my mom is strictly logical type. Also shy, doesn't like to dress too brightly and doesn't like giving positive feedback to anybody. I am sure she is from Ne quadra. Either LSE or LII. it's hard for me to decide if being a neat freak is Si ego or Si seeking.

[Beautiful sky]

I am back to thinking my mom is LII. We had a long talk today, and I went over her VI carefully again.

She feels like my dad (SLE) has never understood her, they constantly have conflict unless they are VERY careful about it, and she says she knows deep down they are NOT compatible and never were. They have always fought and at times terribly, and now that they've been together for 35+ years they have learned to accept it. They handle the incompatibility because they do love one another, and spend relatively little time actually together. My mom's best friend is probably her mirror, and she gets to feel more or less understood by her, and I think that helps my mom not go crazy being married to her conflictor.

I'm sorry sweety, it's okay, it just wasn't meant to be...but I would encourage you looking into your mom being an ISTp

[Beautiful sky]

Umm... according to your methodology, she is INFj.

I - Uncomfortable and often unfocused or TOO focused (like she is straining) in photos
N - Eyes move independently of each other
F - Rounded forehead
J - Neck cranes forward even when standing straight

Didn't you get my pictures?

I would like you to please post a current side picture of your mom shoulder's up and relatively close, hair back thanks.

[Krig the Viking]

Okay, so, procrastination and laziness kept me down for a few weeks, but I finally got around to reconstructing those diagrams I made and lost. I'm quite happy with them, personally.

First, here is the completed version of the relationship map I posted earlier:



This is to provide a baseline for comparison. Relationships described as being stronger and closer are depicted as shorter, thicker lines. Relationships described as being weaker and more distant have longer, thinner lines. From this, an overall picture of the group dynamics emerges.

And finally, I mapped out three variations of the specific types and inter-type relationships for each family member, as follows:

Figure 1: Malia's mom is SLI, John is SLI.
Figure 2: Malia's mom is EII, John is SLI.
Figure 3: Malia's mom is EIE, John is LSI.



As you can see, Figure 1 most closely matches the initial baseline map, and is therefore most likely to be correct. Figure 2 is relatively close to the baseline map, but there are some discrepancies -- the Supervision relationship between Malia's mom and Danny seems too distant for the comfortable relationship Malia describes, and the Conflict relationship between Malia's mom and Malia's Dad & Ezra seems like it would be more open conflict and arguing than the lower-level tension Malia describes.

And finally, Figure 3 does not resemble the baseline map at all, and is unlikely to be correct.

[Beautiful sky]

Malia,

Would you be able to describe, not in socionics terms, how you "supervise" your mom please...Thank you.

Those are great diagrams, I wish I could do that.

[Krig the Viking]

Those are great diagrams, I wish I could do that.

I use a program called VUE (Visual Understanding Environment). It's extremely handy for these kinds of diagrams.

[Krig the Viking]

Incredible Krig!

Figure 1 seems incredibly accurate. I just love the way the figures clearly represent everything so as to make everything easy to understand.

Thank you for putting so much time and energy into this. Somehow, creative things LII's do are always just what should have been done, from my perspective.

Well done!!!

Excellent. Maritsa's SLI typing of your mom was brilliant, because it resolved a lot of the problems I had been having the first time. I love it when everything just "clicks".

A good friend of mine is in the same situation, Supervising her mother. She's IEE, and her mom is ESI. It worked out a little differently with her, though -- instead of constantly clashing, in her teens my friend just kind of assumed the role of "parent" in the family. Her mom would constantly go to her for advice, to the point that my friend would even tell her mom that the punishment she was being given for whatever infraction wasn't strong enough, and she needed to be grounded for longer. Needless to say, this put my friend under a lot of stress, having to both raise herself and parent her own mother.

[Park]

You guys are in(s)ane.

[Krig the Viking]

For instance, I used to get mad at my mom for not caring what time I came home or giving me a curfew. At fifteen, I once left for three days and stayed with friends as an experiment, and when I got home, my mom didn't even ask me where I'd been. This upset me enormously.

Yes, exactly, that's the exact sort of thing my IEE friend was complaining about.

I think supervision relations can slightly vary from types to types though as you illustrate... interesting to hear an example of IEE/ESI supervision, which I've never heard much about.

I haven't encountered IEE/ESI Supervision anywhere else, either -- I don't know a lot of Gammas. I suspect subtypes play a pretty big role in how well Supervision works. I'm pretty good friends with this particular IEE, but others I don't always get along with as well. My boss is IEE -- that's an interesting work relationship!

You guys are in(s)ane.

Okay, "insane" I can accept, but "inane"? You wound me, sir!

[Blaze]

wow. what a cool thread. great diagrams krig.

vixendogfox, to answer your thread question about VI, at first blush and not having read through the whole thread, your mother VI's as IEI. introverted and ethical. she reminds me of infpman, definitely seems introverted and ethical, creative.

ok now i have to contemplate krig's charts.

[Blaze]

ok so i didn't read each and every post here with intense concentration, but a couple of thoughts.

VDF: i think your parents are duals. your dad really looks to be SLE, esp in that one picture. the earliest picture from the 70's he looked more ILE but as he's aged, he clearly seems SLE. they've been married 35 years? wow. they have to have basic compatibility. modern marriages don't last that long without some basic compatibility. your mother looks almost exactly like a female IEI i know (and don't love, unfortunately). to me, she seems introverted. she's into playing guitar (looks exactly like infpman in the way he concentrates when he plays guitar). she has the Ni gaze. the relation between your mother and your ILE brother seems really good, even from the pictures. ILE-IEI is a pretty good relation, overall. you report some chafing with your mother....supervision is the first thing that comes to mind.

side notes about marital relations: i live in Divorce World and have talked to tons of divorced people. so while i don't have a research quality sample size, i've got lots of anecdotal observations, which perhaps could be added on by people here. noted that benefit marriages tend to last around 25 years. supervision marriages/relations last around 20 years. i was with my lookalike for about 15. conflict marriages are full of constant strife and seem to end at the 7 year or 11 year mark, or even earlier.

i've noticed that when logicals get married, the marriage ends sooner than when two ethicals get married. ethicals find a way to make the relationship work for longer. the frustration ethicals have is being able to get things done to one or both partner's satisfaction. the problem with logicals getting married is that no one really knows how to take care of the relationship adequately, that's why these relations end earlier.

remember: duals are fundamentally pretty different people. as far as IEI-SLE duality, there's lots of push and pull there. my ex, SLE, and his new wife, IEI, are in a constant state of this. even though they got married last fall, already they are separated. they still see each other on weekends, though. i think this dual pair gives each other a lot of shit and there's an element of struggle built into the relationship.

to an alpha, who looks for more harmony, this looks like an unacceptable level of conflict, but it's not really conflict in the beta sense. it's life in the beta sense. think of Tony Soprano and his wife: classic SLE-IEI.

i've observed how SLE and EII interact and trust me it's like oil and water. the repulsion is totally apparant and immediate. even i, a relational retard, can see it. my father is EII...trust me....SLE and EII speak totally different languages. they can't understand each other in the least. when i was married to SLE, i used to just watch and listen to my ex and my dad....i would understand both of them but neither of them had any idea of what the other was talking about.

typing your family members is really hard i've noticed. it's like the one time that it's better to have them take a test. you're usually too embedded in the communication/relational dynamics to be able to see type. and, at this site, sometimes we overanalyze, forgetting that type tends to be pretty obvious after only a few interactions.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Creepy-sarahdxwrappd]

IEE/ESI supervision is awful. my mom is an IEE..she's not practical at all, so it's merely a guess, but she's very "spiritual"/penecoastal christian and an idealist, she's loud, obnoxious, and most of her activies surround church and prayer groups of some kind. I'm fairly sure I'm an ESI...and my dad is an SLI. Apparently my parents are duals, have been married for 24 years, will never divorce because of religious reasons...and they both are insane, especially together. In my view my parents relationship is one-sided...my mom nags, my dad's lazy after work, they have their seperate lives. They've definitly had their rough patches, but right now they are doing good again.

I've never really meshed well with either of them. They see me as being too stubborn, to against authority (i really am though, i hate being told what to do by anyone I do not respect), and hate that i'm agnostic. My mom is always on my case. ALWAYS. Everything I do, according to her is done incorrectly. Every choice I make...is wrong. I'm in a good mood until she walks in the house and starts nagging, and then I reply vicously just to get her to leave me alone. As a kid I used to follow her around, wanting to to be her little helper...now I barely talk to her. I don't respect her nor want her advice unless I'm extremely down..but her advice is always rediculous and religious and never helps. my parents fluctuated with being extremely strict to not caring to being strict again, it gives me whiplash, and i never know what to expect from them sometimes.
At first I thought I was the supervisor in my relations with her, because when I reply viciously her feelings get hurt and at that point I don't care...but I never feel compelled to tell her all of her faults until she points out mine, I'm content leaving her alone, while she feels the need to always correct me. it's so annoying.

[Creepy-sarahdxwrappd]

EDIT:
...yeah, I'm rethinking my family member's types. it's a helluva lot harder than on paper.

my mom's gotta be an NF..she cleans alot, but is so impractical it blows my mind sometimes. She's not extremely reflective except on spiritual matters..she's easily taken advantage of, especially by ministries begging for money. she's extremely sensitive to any type of criticism, especially when anyone questions her intelligence (she dropped out of school very young). She's so friendly and open to strangers it's almost embarassing, but her face is always serious. She's not very graceful. However, she's not extremely affectionate either.. may just be her upbringing tho. She loves to be teased and we get along better when i use more "T" (dunno if i use Ti or Te..). she and i have constant misunderstandings: she thinks i'm a coldhearted bitch, i think she's stupid, yet she nags me all the time over not doing things properly (i'm efficent..she's a perfectionist, but in a strange "only my way is perfect" way..it's odd and she sucks at explaining herself and just becomes flabbergasted and screams because she said so) and she's a tattletale to my dad about everything..he definitly makes all the decisions and they both hide things from eachother. maybe EIE..maybe. yeah, come to think of it, she's always behaved like an adolescent..like she's never has nor ever will grow up..so does my dad!

my dad..i'm leaning towards LSI, he and my mom have similiar life views but are largely opposites. he's very serious and then will randomly goof off..particularly trying to embarass me at opportune moments..kinda funny and annoying at the same time; he's still not very laidback like my SLI brother, who could care less about anything outside his immediate interests. i like my brother, but he says i annoy him constantly...my sister's definitly LSE..and she's happily married to an EII guy. we get along...until she screws me over.

...so, that's my attempt.