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Thread: Fidelity

  1. #1
    Creepy-Cyclops

    Default Fidelity

    What are your views on cheating on your partner or spouse?

    I've noticed so many people who go behind their partners back, yet it seems from talking to people that everyone says it's wrong.

    Anyway, this conversation came up at work today and it was interesting to see what people had to say.

    For myself, i've seen plenty people go behind their partners backs. I've also been with a few married woman when I was younger. My attitude at the time was that it was them who were doing something wrong, not me - as i'm the single one - and it may as well be me who's getting some action rather than some other guy.

    However, seeing so many things clouds my trust on the issue of fidelity, and surely with so many people 'two timing' or just one night stands, and so many people saying they don't, that there's got to be lying somewhere!

    I thought later today that maybe it was like golf courses. Some people become a member of a golf course and play on it forever, some people are regulars on their golf course, occasionally fancy a bit of variety, then the change of golf course makes them appreciate their old faithful so they go back to it again, remembering why they liked it so much. Some people don't play on the one course at all, but are forever changing.

    So I thought that golf courses could represent people attitudes to monogomy.

    Would anyone else here go behind their partners/husbands/wifes back? Have you done before? And what is your general thoughts on the matter?

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    Are you asking in terms of quadra behavior?

    I will speak for myself as EII and say, that depends. I would say, that as a general rule, I am very loyal and committed. I don't cheat under any circumstance; I will break up instead. I want a relationship to be honest and legitimate, but on the other hand, I know my best match is anything but the one woman kind of guy. So, I suppose I am the best match for them, because I am the most “forgiving” and “understanding” of all the types and I understand that their brain is not wired like my brain…ESTj are very hedonistic, to a fault or not of their own; but, we are human. If I am going to be in a long terms relationship with them, I want to try to be more understanding, while they should grab that hedonic horse by the horns and control their instinctive drive.

    It's a compromise.
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 02-24-2010 at 06:32 PM.

  3. #3
    Creepy-Cyclops

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    Maritsa, please don't contribute to this thread, I really want to hear some sensible measured answers. Seriously, please don't post at least for a while, i'd hate to see this thread ruined, thanks.

    To everyone else, i'm not quite convinced this should be type related, hence - is it type related. I'm more interested in your honest views and answers on the subject.

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    What was wrong with Maritsas response?

    I don't think cheating is type related. I think there's a bigger problem abouts.
    "Those who make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities..."

    - Voltaire

  5. #5
    Creepy-Cyclops

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    Quote Originally Posted by LokiVanguard View Post
    What was wrong with Maritsas response?
    I think she might have edited it or something, so it's not as bad now. It's probably the socionic thing that concerns me - ie she'd "squeeze" herself to fit into what she's read about a dual. I'd rather hear peoples own opinons on the subject, who they are not what the theory is meant to do and such.

    Fair enough though, i'll respond to it, after all it's better and i'm maybe being too critical or suspecting the worst, lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33
    I will speak for myself as EII and say, that depends. I would say, that as a general rule, I am very loyal and committed. I want a relationship to be honest and legitimate, but on the other hand, I know my best match is anything but the one woman kind of guy. So, I suppose I am the best match for them, because I am the most “forgiving” and “understanding” of all the types and I understand that their brain is not wired like my brain…ESTj are very hedonistic, to a fault or not of their own; but, we are human. If I am going to be in a long terms relationship with them, I want to try to be more understanding, while they should grab that hedonic horse by the horns and control their instinctive drive.

    It's a compromise.
    Would you yourself cheat, or have you done? You are prepared to date or marry someone who is a cheater, even if you didn't know about socionics?

    Quote Originally Posted by LokiVanguard
    I don't think cheating is type related. I think there's a bigger problem abouts.
    Yeah, perhaps I should have put it in anything goes, i'd rather not really associate it with some gibberish socionic explanation, suppose I could've misjudged the subheading.

    Maybe the thread should be moved after all.

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    Do you think it has something to do with western society and what it demands from males?

    It'd be interesting to know from a non US point of view.
    "Those who make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities..."

    - Voltaire

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Would you yourself cheat, or have you done? You are prepared to date or marry someone who is a cheater, even if you didn't know about socionics?

    Maybe the thread should be moved after all.
    I did not edit anything to fit neither myself nor what I have read of my dual, but you can assume or suggest whatever you would like.

    I have never cheated and I never will. I am not sure if I am prepared to date or marry someone who is a cheater, even if I didn't know about socionics; I would say no, that I am not prepared, I want an honest and legitimate relationship and one that is full of values, morals, integrity. I don't want to assume that my husband will ever cheat on me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LokiVanguard View Post
    Do you think it has something to do with western society and what it demands from males?

    It'd be interesting to know from a non US point of view.
    Yes, partly I do; western society makes it ok for men to do whatever they want without the emotional consideration of their partner. In the US, men generally marry a lot older and fool around a lot longer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    Yes, partly I do; western society makes it ok for men to do whatever they want without the emotional consideration of their partner.
    Nah, that's not generally true.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Nah, that's not generally true.
    Ok, then I really want to meet a dual who doesn't fit in with what I have said and so far, I have been dating for three years.

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    My tendency is to think of cheating as an absolutely horrible thing to do to someone else. Although I can't really say "I would never" about anything in the sense that there are a lot of impossible realities that could exist wherein who knows what I would do, I pretty much feel that I would never do that to anyone, and I'm so careful about who I would end up with anyway and so solely focused only on the one relationship that it just seems really unlikely that this would ever become an issue with me and I would be pretty darn picky that whoever I'm with is the same way (knock on wood), otherwise I am really much better off alone. I would have trouble respecting anyone who is a known cheater or who has been with a cheater (as part of who they are), and although this feels like a tight standard, I am aware that things change so of course there are certain special circumstances where my standards may be gradually washed aside. I basically don't have any respect for people who cheat because they obviously don't give a shit about how much they are hurting the one they are cheating on (though there are open relationships where it's really not "cheating" anymore and that is of course different), well in a lot of cases, which may mean they're not very loving people in general who hurt/betray others close to them and do not care. I could not at all respect someone like that. I don't know what I would do if someone were to cheat on me, but I feel that although I can forgive, I don't know if I can forget and the resentment might eat away at me such that I become distant and cold. I'd probably feel a lot of conflicting feelings over it but I don't know if the resentment would ever go away.

  12. #12
    Creepy-Cyclops

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    Quote Originally Posted by LokiVanguard View Post
    Do you think it has something to do with western society and what it demands from males?

    It'd be interesting to know from a non US point of view.
    I've wondered if monogamy is the other way round, an affect of Christianisation and Western society.

    Before Western society which the basics were founded by the roman empire, and before christianity, celtic people were quite free with themselves.

    Here's a quote from wiki were a Roman was commenting on the sexual freedom of the Celts, in this case the Scottish (which is the Caledonian) in about 40AD:

    ...a very witty remark is reported to have been made by the wife of Argentocoxus, a Caledonian, to Julia Augusta. When the empress was jesting with her, after the treaty, about the free intercourse of her sex with men in Britain, she replied: "We fulfill the demands of nature in a much better way than do you Roman women; for we consort openly with the best men, whereas you let yourselves be debauched in secret by the vilest." Such was the retort of the British woman.
    —Cassius Dio

    History also seems to be ripe with important men, warlords etc having several wives or concubines. So maybe we aren't necessarily programmed for monogamy, which can cause issues.

    I think perhaps the difference today is that people say to their partners that they are going to be faithful, and if they're not - then they are lying, and perhaps the lie is more fundamental than the act.

    But then, i'm pretty sure that there's a lot of liars out there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    Ok, then I really want to meet a dual who doesn't fit in with what I have said and so far, I have been dating for three years.
    Well, I can't speak for your dual, of course. Although, I know one ESTj guy that has a long-term girlfriend, and it doesn't look like he's cheating on her. So there's hope for you, I believe.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    I think cheating is a horrible thing to do to anyone. I've never cheated and don't plan on it. It really hurts a person deeply.

    Relationships are what make us happiest in life, regardless of what marketing tells us. I don't think it's the money, it's the bonds we have. (relationships ones, not government bonds

    I think people choose to stay together (without cheating) because they recognize they are happier together and would lose more by cheating/messing up their relationship, than what they lose by staying.

    So, a few missed opportunities for something short-term in exchange for endless opportunities for good things with that one person.

    Cyclops, golf courses? Really? No! It's not like a golf membership. Lifetieme love is that bonded kind that's meant to last. It's not about discounts, etc.

    Though I don't know if the theory that says some people are genetically more/less monogamous is true.

    Still, cheating is bad. Even if the circumstances seem "ok" or whatever, it's degrading yourself to even be a part of it. Integrity is doing the right thing even when it's easier not to.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jewels View Post
    I don't think it's the money, it's the bonds we have. (relationships ones, not government bonds
    ahahah i loved this line
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    What are your views on cheating on your partner or spouse?

    I've noticed so many people who go behind their partners back, yet it seems from talking to people that everyone says it's wrong.

    So I thought that golf courses could represent people attitudes to monogomy.

    Would anyone else here go behind their partners/husbands/wifes back? Have you done before? And what is your general thoughts on the matter?

    Everyone says that smoking is wrong, yet there are so many smokers out there.. and i'm pretty sure that every smoker knows that it is bad for their health. so don't trust what people say, it's what they do that counts.

    personally i would not cheat on my partner, if i ever feel like cheating i would take it as a sign that the relationship has "died out" and simply break up... and then go nuts. but i could never forgive if my partner would cheat on me. and i mean never.. that is the worst thing that someone could do to me.

    and i would never want someone who i am together with, and care for, to feel this way.

    anyway, i was thinking if it could be socionics related.. maybe it depends on temperaments? if EP (ILE, SLE, SEE, and IEE) are more likely to do as they please in the very moment.. but that is just a thought
    LIE

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Nah, that's not generally true.
    I would say its not totally untrue. There is a double standard for sexuality. If men sleep with a lot of women they are cool but if women sleep with a lot of men they are considered a whore.

    I would never cheat or help someone else cheat. I would rather break up or divorce. I don't know if I could be with someone who cheated on me. It would be very difficult and I would probably have an extremely difficult time trusting them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bardia View Post
    I would say its not totally untrue. There is a double standard for sexuality. If men sleep with a lot of women they are cool but if women sleep with a lot of men they are considered a whore.
    I have discussed this topic recently with an SEE girl. The truth is quite simple - it's biology. Forgive me if I sound rough here. No man would wish for a coocoo's egg in his nest. His female, his children and his genes must win. That's why a woman cannot cheat on a man.

    But why can a man cheat on women? To spread his genes! It is a double standard, indeed. For the people who are stuck somewhere between animals and humas level of development, I say.

    And for those who are more humane there is another standard - family. Supporting and nourishing new generations that stem from you.

    I have never cheated nor am I planning on cheating. And if I don't feel enough commitment to get married and fully devote myself, I won't. I'm such a hardass in these matters .

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldj View Post
    I have discussed this topic recently with an SEE girl. The truth is quite simple - it's biology. Forgive me if I sound rough here. No man would wish for a coocoo's egg in his nest. His female, his children and his genes must win. That's why a woman cannot cheat on a man.

    But why can a man cheat on women? To spread his genes! It is a double standard, indeed. For the people who are stuck somewhere between animals and humas level of development, I say.

    And for those who are more humane there is another standard - family. Supporting and nourishing new generations that stem from you.

    I have never cheated nor am I planning on cheating. And if I don't feel enough commitment to get married and fully devote myself, I won't. I'm such a hardass in these matters .
    No, that's BS...Men don't cheat to spread their seed, they cheat to have fun.
    They don't look to get another girl pregnant, they just want to f...around. They probably love their families very much and don't want to compromise that most of the time.

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    Neither do women lay coocoo's eggs in their family nests...

    What I meant is that men are biologically programmed to spread seemen and have more children. It's their instinct - their sex drive pushes them to f... around even though it doesn't bring children. We are animals in fact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldj View Post
    Neither do women lay coocoo's eggs in their family nests...

    What I meant is that men are biologically programmed to spread seemen and have more children. It's their instinct - their sex drive pushes them to f... around even though it doesn't bring children. We are animals in fact.
    I love how that is a winning argument about infadelity...I don't buy it. I think they just want to be pleased physically and have taste for different looking women, I don't think they would have kids with just any one. What happened to the possibility of human pair bonding? Ever think that can exist?

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    Yes I do and I explain that later in my first message in this topic (about family and commitment).

    I'm not justifying men - I'm just telling that we are animals. Highly developed, yet still driven by basic instincts at our core. I'm merely explaining the reasons behind infidelity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldj View Post
    Yes I do and I explain that later in my first message in this topic (about family and commitment).

    I'm not justifying men - I'm just telling that we are animals. Highly developed, yet still driven by basic instincts at our core.
    Well here's a little logic, STOP driving yourself with instinct. Get out of your head and follow someone else's lead.

    Where can I find the about family and commitment threat?

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldj View Post
    Yes I do and I explain that later in my first message in this topic (about family and commitment).

    I'm not justifying men - I'm just telling that we are animals. Highly developed, yet still driven by basic instincts at our core.
    It appears that our existential beliefs are at odds. I believe us to be more than just animals so I don't really see that as a valid argument/excuse.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    Well here's a little logic, STOP driving yourself with instinct. Get out of your head and follow someone else's lead.
    You may say - stop drinking, stop having sex, stop doing this and that. Fast.

    I say - realize your needs and live your life accordingly. That will spare trouble for others and you shall be happy by being honest with yourself and others.

    @ Bardia - well, when I say that we are animals, I'm pointing at a biological fact. Anthopologists and evolutionists would tell you the same reasons of infidelity. Yet my view is much broader than that and I'm not willing to unfold it yet. Understanding the very basics of our nature helps me tolerating how wicked we are sometimes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldj View Post
    You may say - stop drinking, stop having sex, stop doing this and that. Fast.

    I say - realize your needs and live your life accordingly. That will spare trouble for others and you shall be happy by being honest with yourself and others.
    I know what my needs are; but, what are the needs of my dual? Shouldn't we discuss that and come to an agreement? But, if they aren't willing to discuss it then I might as well have never had a dual.

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    Quote Originally Posted by somavision View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bardia View Post
    I would say its not totally untrue. There is a double standard for sexuality. If men sleep with a lot of women they are cool but if women sleep with a lot of men they are considered a whore.
    However, men that sleep with a lot of women while married/engaged aren't considered "cool", at least around here. I supposed that was the context Maritsa was referring to.

    But why can a man cheat on women? To spread his genes! It is a double standard, indeed. For the people who are stuck somewhere between animals and humas level of development, I say.
    Just about the worst possible thing could happen to a cheating man is getting the girl-woman pregnant. Perhaps you're referring to uncoscious drives, but in that case it's not a falsifiable proposition. I'm with Maritsa on this, cheating is mostly done to have "fun" or "variety".
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    Under the perspective of Koldj's argument, it isn't a matter of what's right but of which strategy will win. The argument goes that getting lots of women pregnant wins... however, birth control, abortion etc. throw quite a spanner in the works. Who's having all the children under these circumstances? Not the person trying to straddle the fence between two strategies! In conclusion, I suggest that trying to be monogamous and polygamous at the same time (i.e. cheating) is clearly erroneous.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    Under the perspective of Koldj's argument, it isn't a matter of what's right but of which strategy will win.
    Yeah, there's the so-called r-K theory, where "Ks" are those more invested in a small number of offspring, r the opposite -> r/K selection theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

    Humans are the most r-selected animal. Now, probably the argument could be carried forward either way: since we are the most K-selected already, a strategy on the r-most boundary of the K-selection will be the most successful; or, because K-selection has been shown to be successful, then the most K-selected humans will be the most evolutionarily successful.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Yeah, there's the so-called r-K theory, where "Ks" are those more invested in a small number of offspring, r the opposite -> r/K selection theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

    Humans are the most r-selected animal. Now, probably the argument could be carried forward either way: since we are the most K-selected already, a strategy on the r-most boundary of the K-selection will be the most successful; or, because K-selection has been shown to be successful, then the most K-selected humans will be the most evolutionarily successful.
    So far, that relates with P types...if you look at the ratio of the population breakdown; either J's started with fewer people or did not procreate with the same ferver so to say as P types.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    So far, that relates with P types...if you look at the ratio of the population breakdown; either J's started with fewer people or did not procreate with the same ferver so to say as P types.
    That's not really true in my observations, Maritsa. Js and Ps are roughly the same % of the population. Moreover, there hasn't been one validated study that managed to show how humans consistently differ in r-K strategy; it's to be used for inter-species comparison, not intra-species.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    That's not really true in my observations, Maritsa. Js and Ps are roughly the same % of the population. Moreover, there hasn't been one validated study that managed to show how humans consistently differ in r-K strategy; it's to be used for inter-species comparison, not intra-species.
    But what if throughout time we incorporated and have become intra...may be just as short as 5 thousand years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    But what if throughout time we incorporated and have become intra...may be just as short as 5 thousand years.
    Then there would be an higher percentage of perceiving types among the population, wouldn't it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Then there would be an higher percentage of perceiving types among the population, wouldn't it?
    Yes, and that is what I am saying has happened.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    Yes, and that is what I am saying has happened.
    Do you have any survey to back up the fact that P types are a very large percentage of our society? I mean, it just doesn't seem like it's true, from my experience.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Do you have any survey to back up the fact that P types are a very large percentage of our society?
    What kind of survey would you like? Of what population would be the best representative? (of LA, of a nation?) By observation, the number is outstandingly disproportionate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    What kind of survey would you like? Of what population would be the best representative? (of LA, of a nation?) By observation, the number is outstandingly disproportionate.
    Just one, it's not like I need to write an academic paper about it, I just want to see if there's at least one place where that's true
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Just one, it's not like I need to write an academic paper about it, I just want to see if there's at least one place where that's true
    Alright, I have an interesting idea...we could train the census people to type VI of J and P; if I present my suggestion to the city council maybe I could get an approval, that is a project that I may need to work on along with my masters.

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