INFps & ENFjs, and the need to appear intellectual and cultured

[discojoe]

I have noticed for some time that Beta NFs often exhibit a need to portray themselves as cultured, intellectual, and mathematically/logically adept.

How is this explained in terms of Socionics? Is it that these particular traits are viewed by society as important aspects of power and prestige? If so, is this basically a manifestation of the absence of their duals?

My personal view toward intellectualism, etc., is that most of the kind of information that intellectuals absorb (esoteric literature and miscellaneous trivia about art and architecture) isn't actually useful in any practical way, and that the time it takes to learn all of it would be better spent mastering key career skills. It seems like you could spend several lifetimes trying to craft a hyper-intellectual persona, and unless you know for certain that you will be in positions where it is important to be seen as knowledgeable about these intellectual topics, it would be a more productive use of time to limit such learning to either useful things or things that you are genuinely interested in.

For example, I have several books on things like language, history, mythology, war, science, physics, and I've even got a big fat Shakespeare. But though I find most of that stuff very interesting, I only read it when I've not got school reading or when I'm not reading some bullshit about economics. I don't really care if someone start quoting Wordsworth and I can't identify it, because it has nothing to do with me or my core interests.

So is this how a Beta ST might direct a Beta NF into putting more focus into their subconscious ST power questing?

[silverchris9]

I suppose I try to appear intellectual. But mostly it's because I really enjoy literature, and it really makes my life better. It gives me words for things I didn't understand before. It helps me organize/make sense of my experience. It gives me pleasure to relate abstract concepts to one another. It's fun. So I guess I'm saying that I do limit the reading to things I'm genuinely interested in. Are there beta NFs who don't? (I mean, I'm sure there are, but is obsessing over intellectual things you don't actually enjoy a disproportionately beta NF trait? I don't think so.)

Also, have you memorized any Wordsworth? I promise, learning poetry is totally worth it. It doesn't serve any practical purpose, but, like Richard Rorty (I think) said, it's like having more close friends. It just makes your life better.

So while there maybe be some power seeking in my intellectual facade, the reason I do the reading has nothing to do with power seeking and everything to do with actually enjoying the stuff. I do like to compete in intellectual things, but that's because I like to compete period, but I can't compete in actual athletic things, because I suck at sports. I am, however, awfully good at thinking, which makes thinking a better field for competition (for me) than most (all?) other things. And I do love a good (non-physical) fight.

Also... ewwww, key career skills. Blech. Are you sure you don't want to go back to gamma? They love career skills in gamma.

[xixi]

My personal view toward intellectualism, etc., is that most of the kind of information that intellectuals absorb (esoteric literature and miscellaneous trivia about art and architecture) isn't actually useful in any practical way, and that the time it takes to learn all of it would be better spent mastering key career skills.

Pursuit of knowledge in an esoteric area of study, with practical implementation as a distant or non-existent consideration, is more of a nerd thing than an intellectual thing.

Intellectuals are interested in ideas for their potential to change the world (and ideas do change the world). Throughout human history, art, literature, and design (including architecture) have been used as vehicles for new, 'groundbreaking' ideas.

[discojoe]

What means "key career skills?" Stuff to make you better suited for a job? Uggh. Discojoe, I have some books for you to read in your spare time. Read anything by John Taylor Gatto, but particularly "Weapons of Mass Instruction," read Lemony Snicket's series of children's books (no reason in particular for these, I just like them,) and read "Possum Living" by Dolly Freed. Throw in some Rand if you'd like, but I think Thomas Sowell is killing your mind.

By "key career skills" I mean the skills that make you good at the main thing or things that you do. It is probably easier to shun such a concept when you live far away from civilization. However, the practicality and benefits of it are irrefutable.

I am not discounting the value of curiosity and imagination. The point of what I was saying was that I think Beta NFs sometimes put too much focus into the appearance of being intellectual without much regard for whether or not what they are learning adds much to their prestige/power/.

[Gilly]

The ones who win are the ones who merge their intellectual/personal pursuits with practical applications.

[discojoe]

The ones who win are the ones who merge their intellectual/personal pursuits with practical applications.

I agree. I don't think you should put a lot of time into your work if it is something you hate. So I guess I am basically saying what you said, only in several paragraphs.

[marooned]

It could have to do with wanting to be taken seriously in society (social survival). Being "cultured" and "intellectual" allows one to pass in a variety of social circles and be generally accepted and respected in them.

[Gilly]

I agree. I don't think you should put a lot of time into your work if it is something you hate. So I guess I am basically saying what you said, only in several paragraphs.

Yeah...I mean, from a purely concrete standpoint, essentially Beta STs help to invest Beta NFs developed personal interests, which are typically humanistic or psychological (or both) in nature, into more practical outlets, while Beta NFs help Beta STs to find deeper insight and personal significance in what they do with themselves, as well as taking care of the interpersonal side of business.

[Gilly]

It could have to do with wanting to be taken seriously in society (social survival). Being "cultured" and "intellectual" allows one to pass in a variety of social circles and be generally accepted and respected in them.

Being taken seriously is a theme I have noticed in many Beta NFs, especially those whose primary enneagram types are in the image triad. This was one of the biggest things that bugged me about my dad growing up; I never felt like he took me seriously. I've noticed it as a big theme in, for example, Eminem, IEI-Fe 4w3 sx/so: he talks about playing the "court jester," "hiding behind the tears of a clown," and other examples of doing goofy shit to get attention but internally resenting himself because he feels he is not considered significant.

[discojoe]

I suppose I try to appear intellectual. But mostly it's because I really enjoy literature, and it really makes my life better. It gives me words for things I didn't understand before. It helps me organize/make sense of my experience. It gives me pleasure to relate abstract concepts to one another. It's fun. So I guess I'm saying that I do limit the reading to things I'm genuinely interested in. Are there beta NFs who don't? (I mean, I'm sure there are, but is obsessing over intellectual things you don't actually enjoy a disproportionately beta NF trait? I don't think so.)

Also, have you memorized any Wordsworth? I promise, learning poetry is totally worth it. It doesn't serve any practical purpose, but, like Richard Rorty (I think) said, it's like having more close friends. It just makes your life better.

So while there maybe be some power seeking in my intellectual facade, the reason I do the reading has nothing to do with power seeking and everything to do with actually enjoying the stuff. I do like to compete in intellectual things, but that's because I like to compete period, but I can't compete in actual athletic things, because I suck at sports. I am, however, awfully good at thinking, which makes thinking a better field for competition (for me) than most (all?) other things. And I do love a good (non-physical) fight.

Also... ewwww, key career skills. Blech. Are you sure you don't want to go back to gamma? They love career skills in gamma.

The only poem I have memorized is "The Conquerer Worm" because I thought it sounded cool in high school. I guess if you want to be a writer it makes sense to read that stuff.

[FDG]

By "key career skills" I mean the skills that make you good at the main thing or things that you do. It is probably easier to shun such a concept when you live far away from civilization. However, the practicality and benefits of it are irrefutable.

I am not discounting the value of curiosity and imagination. The point of what I was saying was that I think Beta NFs sometimes put too much focus into the appearance of being intellectual without much regard for whether or not what they are learning adds much to their prestige/power/.

It might be argued that one really important career skill is the ability to impress the right person at the right time. A high degree of intellectual sophistication might do the trick, sometimes better than competence. It's not a method I favor and/or I feel like I'm good at, but I must recognize its practicality.

[Gilly]

Appropriate self-promotion leads to promotions :wink:

[discojoe]

It might be argued that one really important career skill is the ability to impress the right person at the right time. A high degree of intellectual sophistication might do the trick, sometimes better than competence. It's not a method I favor and/or I feel like I'm good at, but I must recognize its practicality.

^Beta ST pretending to be Gamma NT.

[Gilly]

No, more like person who has a sense of a basic business/career-oriented mindset. To exclude or disregard self-presentation would be a fatal mistake.

[redbaron]

I guess if you want to be a writer it makes sense to read that stuff.

If you want to be HUMAN it makes sense to read that stuff. There is nothing better than literature and poetry to reveal the human condition, suffering, emotions, purpose and meaning.

screw the idea of career skills.

[Gilly]

screw the idea of career skills.

And how do you make a living?

[redbaron]

And how do you make a living?

I knew it would come to that. well, you marry an attorney, that's what. Um actually right now I'm earning money with my textile art, but yes that would not be enough to support a big family. My point being however that ignoring the literature IN LIEU OF career skills isn't great either. I think you need both. I'm a huge advocate of a liberal arts education before grad school or whatever.

[discojoe]

I knew it would come to that. well, you marry an attorney, that's what. Um actually right now I'm earning money with my textile art, but yes that would not be enough to support a big family. My point being however that ignoring the literature IN LIEU OF career skills isn't great either. I think you need both. I'm a huge advocate of a liberal arts education before grad school or whatever.

The problem is that in many liberal arts programs you learn jack shit about history and economics, and they pretty much lie to you about American history.

[discojoe]

Beta NFs help Beta STs to find deeper insight and personal significance in what they do with themselves, as well as taking care of the interpersonal side of business.

I frequently get into depressed stupors from which I can only escape by listening to emotional music or being in an active environment where something interesting is being discussed. Or by taking speed.

[redbaron]

The problem is that in many liberal arts programs you learn jack shit about history and economics, and they pretty much lie to you about American history.

probably right. but I don't care as much about history and econ so it works for me. haha

[discojoe]

No, more like person who has a sense of a basic business/career-oriented mindset. To exclude or disregard self-presentation would be a fatal mistake.

I meant that what he said sounded Beta ST.

[JuJu]

And how do you make a living?

EIEs, I think, are generally more pragmatic and practical than IEIs.

It's a theme I've heard time and time again in biographies of people of both types--EIEs (like ******, for example,) are characterized over and over as, essentially, pragmatic and practical, whereas IEIs...

I don't mean this to offend IEIs or prop-up EIEs... It's just something I've noticed, and it's (vaguely) relevant.

[ScarlettLux]

EIEs, I think, are generally more pragmatic and practical than IEIs.

It's a theme I've heard time and time again in biographies of people of both types--EIEs (like ******, for example,) are characterized over and over as, essentially, pragmatic and practical, whereas IEIs...

I don't mean this to offend IEIs or prop-up EIEs... It's just something I've noticed, and it's (vaguely) relevant.

Uh yeah, Exxj temperament, Se hidden agenda + Te Role, no shit.

[redbaron]

EIEs, I think, are generally more pragmatic and practical than IEIs.

It's a theme I've heard time and time again in biographies of people of both types--EIEs (like ******, for example,) are characterized over and over as, essentially, pragmatic and practical, whereas IEIs...

I don't mean this to offend IEIs or prop-up EIEs... It's just something I've noticed, and it's (vaguely) relevant.

yeah yeah, we know...

[FDG]

^Beta ST pretending to be Gamma NT.

That wouldn't really impact the truthfulness of what I said, even if unfair/suboptimal. I was being descriptive, not normative.

[munenori2]

If you want to be HUMAN it makes sense to read that stuff. There is nothing better than literature and poetry to reveal the human condition, suffering, emotions, purpose and meaning.

screw the idea of career skills.

I like. Though I like to think I'm physical enough to do pretty much anything hands-on. I want to be both philosopher and badass.

ETA: economics is boring as shit.

[crazedrat]

I think we genuinely enjoy it. Knowledge can give you a feeling of power. You can often times gain power in social situations through citing higher knowledge.

[Gilly]

I think we genuinely enjoy it. Knowledge can give you a feeling of power.

lol, one time my IEI-Fe friend and I got into a debate abut this with this SLI-Si dude who worked with us, along with his ESI-Se buddy. We were trying to explain to him why we read shit like Nietzsche; these two guys were both body builders, so I made the analogy of accumulating knowledge being like accumulating muscle, in that it gives you a sense of power. I told him, in so many words, that, just as he likes the feeling of being to pick someone up and throw them around, I enjoyed being able to talk circles around animalistic dipshits; I probably used too many big words, because he proceeded to get extremely insecure, grab me by the shirt, and throw me up against the prep table before seeing me remain completely calm and realizing in a moment that if he did anything he would be not only out of a job, but also in the hole however much I could wring out of his muscle-bound ass in a lawsuit. He got this really conflicted, cogs-grinding-to-a-screeching-halt look on his face, then put me down and went back to making a sandwich as my friend and I snickered and I walked away. It was awesome.

[crazedrat]

yeah SLIs always have that attitude like they're ready to kick your ass. I can see an SLI doing something like that to impress an ENFp. This one time in highschool an SLI who I'd never met was persistently taunting me in front of a girl he was with and trying to look like a badass. So I walked away calmly like I usually do, ..(even though I was actually very pissed off) and went into the cafeteria with my ISFp friend. But I could still hear him taunting me from the other room saying that I was a fag or something, and his girlfriend looking on in admiration. At that point I realized if I actually did attack him.. I mean full out attack like a rabid animal, that wasn't what he wanted at all. It was all a persona for him. So anyway I walked right up to him and punched him as hard as I could twice on the bone right below his eye and he sprinted about 20 feet away and turned around scared shitless, then his girlfriend started trying to defend him calling me a "crazy man". It was really hilarious. But yeah I think alot of the shit they do is for show.

[JuJu]

Uh yeah, Exxj temperament, Se hidden agenda + Te Role, no shit.

"Uh yeah," so you made it to ESTp... Great, you're Se ego, "no shit..." (If I remember correctly someone told you that last year... Oh yeah, me.)

I wonder if you'll magically become less obnoxious when you realize that you're ESFp... One can only hope.

[JuJu]

yeah SLIs always have that attitude like they're ready to kick your ass. I can see an SLI doing something like that to impress an ENFp. This one time in highschool an SLI who I'd never met was persistently taunting me in front of a girl he was with and trying to look like a badass. So I walked away calmly like I usually do, ..(even though I was actually very pissed off) and went into the cafeteria with my ISFp friend. But I could still hear him taunting me from the other room saying that I was a fag or something, and his girlfriend looking on in admiration. At that point I realized if I actually did attack him.. I mean full out attack like a rabid animal, that wasn't what he wanted at all. It was all a persona for him. So anyway I walked right up to him and punched him as hard as I could twice on the bone right below his eye and he sprinted about 20 feet away and turned around scared shitless, then his girlfriend started trying to defend him calling me a "crazy man". It was really hilarious. But yeah I think alot of the shit they do is for show.

Where are all these tough guy SLIs..? I've never met one like this... Are you sure they're not LSIs..?

The only tough guy SLI I can even think of is Charles Bronson--and he'd just kick your ass, say nothing, and move on.

[Jarno]

Where are all these tough guy SLIs..? I've never met one like this... Are you sure they're not LSIs..?

The only tough guy SLI I can even think of is Charles Bronson--and he'd just kick your ass, say nothing, and move on.

SLI (especially the Te subtype) can be very tough indeed. I bet you see enough of them among fighters/criminals/green barets etc.

[strrrng]

Uh yeah, Exxj temperament, Se hidden agenda + Te Role, no shit.

They're especially practical when a Te HA is present.

[crazedrat]

it is possible he was LSE. LSI is a definite no. SLI is still my suspicion. I actually know quite a few tough guy SLIs, I think it's sort of a stereotype for them..

[strrrng]

Most of the tough delta ST males I've observed/encountered, have generally been either strong, silent types or pompous machismos. The latter is more populated with LSEs. SLIs are an ideal assassin type.

[discojoe]

LSEs are one of the most intolerably annoying types (to me ). The way they jostle you is just harassing, and they always have misplaced confidence in stupid, unimportant bullshit. Good grocery store managers, though.

[Gilly]

LSEs are one of the most intolerably annoying types (to me ). The way they jostle you is just harassing, and they always have misplaced confidence in stupid, unimportant bullshit.

lol, this is so true...

Good grocery store managers, though.

Useful idiots...evolution put them here for a reason.

[crazedrat]

there's this ESTj 40 year old dude working at the subway in our school cafeteria. So i went up there and said "ham, pepperoni, salami" and he got all annoyed and was like ... "Okay would you like anything else on your BMT". It was so retarded. But i didn't say anything slightly sarcastic and condescending to him back, like I usually would. I knew socionics was a factor, so I just observed the situation and thought to myself. He was probably making tons of judgments on the shity grey sweater I was wearing or the fact I havent shaved. Probably sees me as not contributing to the system which he's working overtime for, thus partly responsible for enslaving him to his fate of making sandwiches. I bet every salami he puts onto a sandwich is a salami of resentment.

[discojoe]

OK, I just bought a book of W.H. Auden poetry. This better be good you fuckers.

[crazedrat]

you aren't ISTj. you are ISFj.