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Thread: Another reason for my typing: INFj-ESTp conflict relations

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    Default Another reason for my typing: INFj-ESTp conflict relations

    This strikes me as one of the more obvious 'proofs' that I am INFj.

    (Also, SLE friend JWC3 has asked for more specific insights into moi, so here we go).



    Here follow my thoughts on SLEs.




    True to socionic form, my relationships with SLEs have indeed typically been ones of "Conflict".


    Now let me immediately clarify that I do NOT hate SLEs!! (Omg, there's that EII compulsion "not to offend anyone" - more proof! Heavens above.)




    The conflicts in question have ranged from mild bemusement to extreme irritation and psychological/emotional/physical damage. This has largely depended on the SLE and his level of maturity and self-control. (I've known younger SLEs who showed much more self-control than older ones.)


    Experiences with them in school were particularly traumatic. As a young EII I was hardly equipped to deal with their as-yet unbridled power. Even worse was that my parents forced me to play team sports that were naturally populated by a slew of aggressive, SLE jock types. Needless to say I did not fit in, and these were very miserable and humiliating times for me.


    Of course, today I fully accept them for who they are and try to give them the space to be such. On some level I do admire their obvious strength and tenacity, and they can be hella funny when they're feeling gregarious, but in 1-on-1 close contact I still find them very intimidating!


    Face-to-face, the sheer force of their personality quickly overpowers me, awakens all my worst insecurities, and it usually doesn't take long before I'm scrambling for the nearest / quickest / politest way out of the situation.


    Also (and I admit I may be generalising too much here) in my experience they seem to require almost constant attention and stimulation which I simply cannot provide...




    In contact with them, the typical order of events is this:

    Initially my compels me to adapt myself to their needs and expectations, attempting to make the encounter as pleasant for them as possible at my own expense. This requires a suppression of which is difficult and psychologically painful to sustain. I tend to feel somewhat fake when I'm around them. I feel like I need to put on a show of bravado just to keep up with them in conversation and maintain their respect and attention.

    Inevitably I become exhausted within minutes and must find some way to exit the situation without raising too much suspicion as to the real reason, which they would perceive as weakness. This puzzles them, because they thought the conversation was going great, oblivious to my unseen efforts. Consequently they perceive me then as simply being rude and unsociable, and tend to lose whatever initial interest they had in me.

    And this failure on my part to create or sustain a peaceful, harmonious, beneficial relation with them is internalised and brooded over for any length of time depending on the magnitude of the failure.





    (Of course, today I am able to simply pin it down to socionic differences and not beat myself up for not being "good enough", but this was not always the case).




    Even in face-to-face contact with sweet, helpful, well-meaning SLEs, I always feel a lingering dread that they might snap at any moment if they perceive that their efforts are not being properly recognised and appreciated, or if they've been wronged or challenged in some way.


    This is due to some very bad experiences I've had with (suspected) SLEs throughtout my life.


    (Long anecdotes below, feel free to skip)

    Quote Originally Posted by Shagbag
    One such experience happened about 6 years ago with an SLE colleague. We were both working at the same restaurant, and one night he was so busy that he neglected to perform several of his duties. My naturally compelled me to step in and do these things for him without being asked, thinking he would be grateful for the help.

    Instead, when he later found out that I had "done his job for him", he became physically violent, suddenly and unexpectedly, grabbing me by the shirt and almost beating the crap out of me (thankfully the manager arrived on the scene just in time to stop him). He had apparently felt threatened by what he perceived were my attempts to "steal his job".

    This incident was extremely traumatic for me and took me a long time to get over psychologically. I drove myself crazy playing the scenario back in my mind over and over, analysing every detail leading up to the event, considering all the things I should have done and said to avoid this catastrophe. Even thinking back to it now makes me shudder.


    Quote Originally Posted by Shagbag
    Another bad experience happened about 4 years ago when I moved to London. My SLE uncle in London offered me a room in his apartment to help me get on my feet, which I gratefully accepted at the time. Not having seen him for years, I couldn't remember what he was like in person, so I had no idea what I was getting myself into. Only when I arrived did the problems start.

    He was hyperactive and aggressive in the extreme. Almost every conversation we had was a scathing commentary on my lack of initiative, my lack of balls, my "laziness", my need to grow a f*ing spine and "be a man". Omg, every day was a nightmare. I would utterly dread coming home from work at night and having to deal with him.

    Some nights he would get drunk and become even more impossible to deal with. He would often play juvenile pranks (the shaving cream / toothpaste variety), and deliberately keep me awake all night because he thought it would be hilarious if I went for days without sleep. He was immune to any appeals to empathy, which were abruptly met with irritation, criticism or indifference.

    Well, finally I did manage to find another place, but that was 7 months of pure hell and depression that have left lasting psychological craters.


    Those are just a few.

    Maybe I've just been unlucky with SLE contacts so far and need to be exposed to some "good" ones to neutralise the fears I've acquired over the years.

    Or maybe we just need to give each other a wide berth?? lol



    Input welcome.
    Corrections welcome.
    Comments welcome.

    And yes, SLEs welcome.



    (JWC3, get in here, I know you want to.) :wink:

    EII - Ne
    5w6 sp/so/sx

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    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
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    Your post has so many colors and changes of font size.

    All those people you had to deal with sound like jackasses, not SLEs. Granted, they could be SLE jackasses. Bravado is not so much necessary with SLEs. You just have to have somewhat of a spine and plenty of Ni. I don't understand why an SLE would freak out about somebody being lazy though, because everyone knows that IEIs are incredibly lazy. But then again, often we hate in conflictors traits that are superficially similar to those that we find endearing in duals, and so it may be possible to describe both the desirable and the undesirable trait with the same word.

    I am generally skeptical of typing based on "the jocks were mean to me in high school" because the jocks were mean to everyone in high school, (that is, the conflict is generally more of an E/I or S/N thing than anything else), but it seems like you're talking about SLEs, I guess. Although I would probably have similar complaints about LSEs. I think.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9
    Your post has so many colors and changes of font size.
    Just breaking up the text to make it a bit easier on the eyes.

    Anyway.

    Yeah, you're right, there's no way of knowing how many of the jocks were SLEs, but surely a good number of them. Definitely SEEs and LSEs in there too, if I start to really think about it.

    One of them I am practically certain was an LSE. This is so funny, he was always "macho" around the other jocks, but then he would come to me after class humbly asking for help with things he hadn't understood in class. In those moments he was really sweet and endearing, lolll.

    Omg, I had such a crush on him, come to think of it....


    Ok, moving right along. *snaps out of it*

    EII - Ne
    5w6 sp/so/sx

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    Well, I think you've just known some shitty SLEs. I have too, especially when I was younger and growing up in a very rural, poor area. Some guys were brutes - I guess because their families were rough. Also back then I didn't really use any Fe at all. I was very shy and quiet and didn't know how to respond to their provocations, which of course just egged them on since they found someone to mess with. Mostly what pissed me off about them is that they instantly judged me without having one conversation with me, and THEN ranted about how I was judgmental. There's the pot calling the kettle black. What they mean is: I don't respond to Se, and I don't use Fe. Therefore, that makes me judgmental.

    But the ones I meet now are pretty good guys. We usually work well together too. Some of the ones I meet are very fun-loving, energetic, and laid-back, others look like they'd be at home on a battlefield ordering troops around.

    Anyway, I think being an IEE makes a big difference in working with SLEs. My best friend still works with my old boss, and every once in a while he'll go on a rant against her lack of sensuality, lack of a spine, and overly cautious nature... to someone looking for Fe, I'm sure she seems cold. You can't tell her moods much at all. She'll say "I'm in a such a bad mood today," and up until that point I had no idea she was under the weather. And yes, she's overly cautious, even for me. lol

    Overall their working relationship is okay, since they're both out of the office a great deal and have independence. He's a nice guy, but he makes too many assumptions about her character because he can't understand her. His business partner is IEI, and I think she tempers him a bit.

    It's kind of weird how the conflictor relationship is coming out now that she's worked there a very long time and she's an "equal," not an intern anymore. The other day he yelled at her on the phone because he called with a question about the documents, and she didn't understand what he was asking for. So she tried to answer his question, and he said, "Stop trying to be smart!" (as in smart-ass) and belittled her in front of the client. So she just flat-out said, "X, I'm being serious. I'm trying to answer the question, but I don't understand what you're looking for." He hadn't had much sleep, which I think influenced it. He doesn't usually lose his temper like that.

    Sooo yeah. Good thing they're pretty autonomous at this point. Back in the day, though, he was all about her. He totally adored her for about 2 years. Then socionics struck again! Their working relationship isn't terrible, though. She gets more pissed off at our SEE friend, who cuts her off mid-sentence quite frequently and can be pushy with her opinions.
    IEE

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    On the other hand, what things do you most like about your dual? Or, what qualities would you most like in a dual?
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    But then again, often we hate in conflictors traits that are superficially similar to those that we find endearing in duals, and so it may be possible to describe both the desirable and the undesirable trait with the same word.
    I'm of the opinion that these traits we pick up on as things we dislike are often just anchors for the fact that we dislike them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shagbag The Wizard View Post
    Just breaking up the text to make it a bit easier on the eyes.
    I don't think that you achieved this goal... I'd suggest doing this by separating the text (mainly with headings, perhaps with whitespace too), but leaving text that is equally important looking the same, so as not to confuse use with these strong marks of difference (which are somewhat like rebooting your computer every time you want to open a different program).



    LII-Ne

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    I'm of the opinion that these traits we pick up on as things we dislike are often just anchors for the fact that we dislike them.
    Hmmm... that's interesting. Very interesting in fact. Sort of trying to localize the fact that we just don't get along in some particular trait. Interesting thought. But surely when we dislike someone, we dislike something about them? Or is it just the conflictor vibe?
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

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    The Soul Happy-er JWC3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    On the other hand, what things do you most like about your dual? Or, what qualities would you most like in a dual?
    +1

    What's your ideal partner. Explain that to us.

    After that, let's hear about someone you greatly admire and why.
    Easy Day

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    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    Hmmm... that's interesting. Very interesting in fact. Sort of trying to localize the fact that we just don't get along in some particular trait. Interesting thought. But surely when we dislike someone, we dislike something about them? Or is it just the conflictor vibe?
    Yeah, something like the conflictor vibe or their , maybe even something that we still haven't named even with Socionics - something that we can't single out, so we pick something else.



    LII-Ne

    "Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
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    My biggest problem with this thread is that we have no reason to believe your typings of other SLEs, and there is nothing to suggest that SLE is your conflictor, per se; at best it describes some sort of negative relationship with them that doesn't necessarily have to be conflict.
    Stan is not my real name.

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    We also have no good reason not to believe him, and I don't see anything particularly inconsistent with INFj.
    INTp

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    The Soul Happy-er JWC3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedratXII View Post
    We also have no good reason not to believe him, and I don't see anything particularly inconsistent with INFj.
    Oh for sure, but I'm going to go ahead and take my time to think before I outright accept some one else's truth.
    Easy Day

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    *I believe you are INFJ* :-)

    Besides the fact that this post made me feel sad in some ways (thinking about your past trials with other people)... I'm glad/respect that you've withstood those times that were hurtful or upsetting to you.

    I think it is very difficult for an FiNe to be surrounded by constant steams of Se (this is an understatement). You've been brave!

    Ok, here are my other opinions/questions for you:

    Quote Originally Posted by Shagbag The Wizard View Post
    (Omg, there's that EII compulsion "not to offend anyone" - more proof! Heavens above.)
    yes, the phrase "not to offend anyone" is VERY infj :-)


    Quote Originally Posted by Shagbag The Wizard View Post
    conflicts in question have ranged from mild bemusement to extreme irritation and psychological/emotional/physical damage.
    This makes me sad...but also makes me think that you've been in extended duress periods in your life that have somewhat affected your true, core type of INFJ (I got the feeling -right away from your VI post- that you might have been through a lot of emotional crap in the past already but your actual statemets help make things clearer)

    I'm sorry for that "damage" :-(


    Quote Originally Posted by Shagbag The Wizard View Post
    Experiences with them in school were particularly traumatic. As a young EII I was hardly equipped to deal with their as-yet unbridled power. Even worse was that my parents forced me to play team sports that were naturally populated by a slew of aggressive, SLE jock types. Needless to say I did not fit in, and these were very miserable and humiliating times for me.
    These are other words/phrases standing out for me: "traumatic," "parents forced me," "aggressive," "miserable and humiliating times"

    First off, these are major indications of pressure on your more mellow Fi core nature... I'm sorry for that (not being mushy...just empathizing/caring)

    I would be interested to know what your family background is? Which quadra or function was dominant in your family? -- the word "forced" sounds Se associated--

    Do you know your parents type? Do you think that you felt fully safe/valued as a delta type (or more importantly Fi dominant) in your family?

    I'm not dissing beta or gamma quadra because there are Se types there, I'm just curious.

    Any type might feel stifled or unvalued if they are growing up surrounded by people that are dominnant in only one conflicting quadrant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shagbag The Wizard View Post
    Of course, today I fully accept them for who they are and try to give them the space to be such. On some level I do admire their obvious strength and tenacity, and they can be hella funny when they're feeling gregarious, but in 1-on-1 close contact I still find them very intimidating!
    Being conciliatory, gracious, accepting of differences -- that is very INFJ

    Quote Originally Posted by Shagbag The Wizard View Post
    compels me to adapt myself to their needs and expectations, attempting to make the encounter as pleasant for them as possible at my own expense. This requires a suppression of which is difficult and psychologically painful to sustain. I tend to feel somewhat fake when I'm around them. I feel like I need to put on a show of bravado just to keep up with them in conversation and maintain their respect and attention.
    Here are some other words & phrases that stand out for me:
    "adapt myself to their needs," "pleasant for them as possible at my own expense," "suppression of Fi," "psychologically painful," "need to put on a show of Se bravado."

    believe it or not, I totally understand were you are coming from -- it sounds so painful to listen to these descriptions -- as you twist & turn through your *true nature* to survive in your environment-

    I understand how the Se bravado can manifest (as a last ditch protection) in conflicting, stressful situations -- I think the Polr rises up like a flaming phoenix, sometimes, to lash out when too much presssure is exerted by outside environment -- I also think that if the toxic environment is sustained as a stressor ... your primary function can be masked (in an illusory way) by the teriary and Polr fighting back to protect you in difficult times.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shagbag The Wizard View Post
    And this failure on my part to create or sustain a peaceful, harmonious, beneficial relation with them is internalised and brooded over for any length of time depending on the magnitude of the failure.
    Yep, this also sounds very typical INFJ -- Hey dude! Don't fall for the stupid massochist lable applied to INFJs inaccurately..... your pain & *emotional self-responsibilty*.... means you *care*!!!.. and I wish you to not be so hard on yourself...but EII often wrack themselves over the coals for self mistakes or even when other people have been jackasses...but INFJ...is always wondering, "What did --I-- do wrong!?" even when everyone around them is efficiently/practically acting in self-interest/ self-preservation -- INFJ is often just pondering their own mistakes... Well don't fall for the sanctimoniousness or guilt-trips by those who think you are weak or silly for being caring/pluming the internal soul/ or worrying about other people's feelings --good for you that you give shit!! -- loves that! :-)


    Quote Originally Posted by Shagbag The Wizard View Post
    (Of course, today I am able to simply pin it down to socionic differences and not beat myself up for not being "good enough", but this was not always the case).
    Cool dude! awsome! --

    Course, you will meet people in socionics or anywhere IRL (and even part of your quadra) that don't believe in you or will not be supportive or fair --

    Sometimes people are just being emotinally irrational, sometimes they don't *see" what is right in front of them, and sometimes people are smart but angry bigots.

    I would recommend relying on Ti more to help you out when people are just being emotionally bias or pressuring or bigoted jerks --

    I think that most INFJ's are yearning for social/cultural truth-seeking

    That often means not being popular or "approved of" by groups but I would say *fuck peer pressure* -- and follow your true, internal signal :-)

    Thanks for your thread, I'm not quite brave enough to do it myself-

    I hope to soon

    and ..glad to hear your voice! :-)

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    This is how an EII looks and talks like:

    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Solidad, you ARE EII. Very much so.

    Shagbad... I'm not so sure about you, mister. Question(s): in your natural state, if there were no inhibitions and you could be fully completely, 100% yourself, would you still be worried about not offending people? Do you see not offending people as a means to an end or as a good in itself? Why don't you like offending people?

    Yeah, something like the conflictor vibe or their , maybe even something that we still haven't named even with Socionics - something that we can't single out, so we pick something else.
    I agree, in part. I think that there are things that we genuinely conflict with our conflictors on, generally ways of thinking about the same topic, but yeah, I think a lot of the behavioral things that we complain about vis a vis conflictors are just sort of things to hang the irritation on.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

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    The Soul Happy-er JWC3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solidad View Post
    I would recommend relying on Ti more to help you out when people are just being emotionally bias or pressuring or bigoted jerks --
    I'm going to go ahead and assume you mean to tell shagbag to try to put his head above his heart and not get caught up in his own emotional world, when presented with outside pressure, by remembering that it wasn't actually his fault.

    Or something along those lines.
    Easy Day

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    ....
    Last edited by anou; 02-13-2010 at 12:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedratXII View Post
    We also have no good reason not to believe him, and I don't see anything particularly inconsistent with INFj.
    I have plenty of reason not to believe him. I think his overall obnoxious demeanor and pomposity, along with his complete disregard for whom he offends seems very beta. And even though he proclaims to have SLE as his conflictor, he's been getting along pretty well with SLEs and other betas on this forum.
    Stan is not my real name.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stanprollyright View Post
    I have plenty of reason not to believe him. I think his overall obnoxious demeanor and pomposity, along with his complete disregard for whom he offends seems very beta. And even though he proclaims to have SLE as his conflictor, he's been getting along pretty well with SLEs and other betas on this forum.
    True... but he could just be a nice, socially-comfortable person. And I really do want him to be an EII (even though I'm not sold yet) because he seems like a cool person and delta needs more cool people (not that you existing deltas aren't cool...). On the other hand, he seems awfully Fe for a delta... (sorry to talk about you in the third person shagbad).

    Also, shagbad, I'm IEI and I do the whole don't-want-to-offend-people thing. But I grew up around a *lot* of deltas, so that has a lot to do with it.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

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    silverchris9:

    !Yes! I am VERY EII -- heh, heh (a blessing & a curse) :wink:

    Also, love the following:

    "I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong."

    beautiful..with a subtle sharp edge...

    made me feel thankful & peaceful for a moment (in an overall horrible, stress-filled day)

    -------

    JWC3:

    Yes! You are receiving... the *overall* message I am sending

    I'm in my thirties now... so I've been using Ti a LOT more (tapping into my tertiary function) -- it really does help quite a bit to separate the wheat from the chaff in life... (or to be crude: the bullshit from the bull)

    When exaggerated or malicious Fi or Fe or SE or Si or Ne or Ni ---is being thrown at you from all directions (in a manipulative manner)... Welp??? who knows what the hell is real sometimes?

    I've been in situations in life in which I feel like I'm the lead character on the "Truman Show"

    Ti is often my savior as I get older --

    I actually believe that one can learn a lot from their conflictor
    (which is basically their opposite reflection)

    of course, conflictors need space -- ha, ha -- but the learning potential is there in fundamental ways ..

    ----

    stanprollyright:

    Quote Originally Posted by stanprollyright View Post
    I think his overall obnoxious demeanor and pomposity, along with his complete disregard for whom he offends seems very beta.
    IMHO.. these may be extreme (unfair) stereotypes of Beta --

    First off, what is considered "obnoxious" is subjective (by individual & quadra)

    "pomposity" might be expressed in any individual (depending on multiple factors)

    "complete disregard" is an absolute phrase and therefore most-likely invalid

    ---

    One of my friends is IEI subtype NI....he has a very mellow, accepting, sweet heart - understanding, a great listener, a larger sense of the world, with a subtle but dark quirky/ironic sense of humor -- nothing like what you are describing above for Beta-

    I think that quadra preference because of comfort & affiliation is healthy but that quadra prejudice is not.

  21. #21
    crazedrat's Avatar
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    conflictors are not opposites. duals are opposites
    INTp

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    Solidad's Avatar
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    crazedratXII, I meant opposite within the 1st four functions of the mental ring.

    EII - Fi Ne Ti Se ----> inverse is -----> Se Ti Ne Fi - SLE

    I just think there are things to learn from types that are our reflection (or opposite) in the ego & super-ego block.

    I don't think that conflictors will get on well for long periods of time in close proximity (of any relationship) but I also think that, rather than just primarily recoiling or demonizing a conflictor,... that there are also things to learn & be respectful of.

    A conflictor teaches me about my weaknesses & prejudices - something that is difficult for me to look at but ...nonetheless, in my opinion.. valid.

    I appreciated your post. It helped me to clarify. I really DO have a problem with Te (presenting information in a thorough but efficient manner).

    I'm working on it, though ;-)

  23. #23
    Creepy-Cyclops

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    I think you are probably an EII, but definately a gay.

  24. #24

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    LOL @Cyclops, that was awesome, I nearly spewed.

    Curious to know what seems DEFINITELY gay in my posts, though, LOLOL.


    Anyway.


    Hi guys, thanks for all the great feedback! Have to leave work now, but will be back with replies tomorrow.

    Until then, have a good one.



    (Think I need to do a new thread on my parents too, who I've already typed and confirmed, which will may help to explain why some of my "weaker" EII functions seem unusually strong.)

    EII - Ne
    5w6 sp/so/sx

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    What do you think of the beta and delta descriptions? It seems unlikely that you would be conflicted between merry/serious, and two opposing quadras. I'm not even sure how this happens.

    When I was a socionics noob I thought I was an ESI just due to misunderstanding the theory and Si. Do you actually know what Fi/Ni do? How they manifest? That might be a dumb question, but something good to think about.

    Delta and Beta are just simply extremely different when it comes to how they come off... it shouldn't be hard to discern between the two. Have you read Gilly's thread on quadra progression? The zillion other quadra threads here?
    SEE-Fi 9w8 sx/sp

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    Solidad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    I think you are probably an EII, but definately a gay.
    I actually get a feeling that wizard is somewhere in the grey area of the Kinsey scale.

    Alfred Kinsey and the Kinsey Scale: Sexual Orientation and the Grey Area Between Gay and Straight

    ((**sorry for the oprah stuff included in the former article...she annoys the hell out of me [hello? massive narcissist/ god complex???...plus I think she is mentally-messed up INFJ to boot] but that is my subjective, prejudiced statement to throw in the mix...trying to be honest at least**))

    ....anyway, my opinion about you shagbag....is that you are not clearly gay or straight......but It is not really any big woop-de-woop for me since I feel that the majority of people fall somewhere in the grey area of this kinsey scale (myself included)-

    I don't really believe that most people are 100% gay or straight, though that is the social/cultural pressure for a norm. (AND yes...I believe *some* people are 100% in the sexual orientation polar extremes...but that reality doesn't negate the rest of people in a more ambiguous, sliding-scale, sexual orientation identification along the kinsey scale)

    Anyway, I know there is a LOT of tribal pressure to pick one category of sexual orientation (black/white box over another) .... but I don't think it is true on a majority level (even if people are afraid to acknowledge their sexual orientation complexity) publicly.

    For me, it is about T vs. F attraction -- rather than body parts

    ha, ha...unless an F can have the T-mojo...then cool baby!

    and also, shagbag -- I do NOT get an impression that you r "flaming"

    :-)

  27. #27

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    Well, I guess I would say I'm somewhere between a 5 - predominantly homosexual and 6 - completely homosexual. The thought of sex with a woman is almost entirely repulsive to me, lol.

    Having said that, I'm definitely not a raging queen. Most people have no idea I'm gay.


    But anyway, we are straying off topic, lol. Back to SLEs.

    EII - Ne
    5w6 sp/so/sx

  28. #28

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    Hi everyone, thanks for being patient. I don't have internet access at home right now, and sometimes the internet at work goes off for days. Seems to be working today, though.


    So.


    I appreciate everyone's input and will try to give a reply to everyone.




    Firstly, @tiny_dancer: Don't have much to say, except I read your post with great interest and appreciation. I can definitely relate to most of it.


    I will say that at this point I have typed most of the people I work with (they've been very accommodating of my new obsession, lol). Doesn't seem like there are any SLEs among us. (Turns out we have more ESEs than any other type - they really are a versatile bunch, lol).


    Think I'll do a more in-depth thread about this soon...

    EII - Ne
    5w6 sp/so/sx

  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand
    I don't think that you achieved this goal... I'd suggest doing this by separating the text (mainly with headings, perhaps with whitespace too), but leaving text that is equally important looking the same, so as not to confuse use with these strong marks of difference (which are somewhat like rebooting your computer every time you want to open a different program).



    OWNAGE, ladies and gentlemen.


    (Fine, fine, thank you, I will take your points under advisement for next time. *3rd function grumbling in resentment* )


    1-0

    EII - Ne
    5w6 sp/so/sx

  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand
    I'm of the opinion that these traits we pick up on as things we dislike are often just anchors for the fact that we dislike them.

    This sounds good in theory, except for the insurmountable fact that I don't dislike anyone.

    * smacked the fuck back down by *

    *crowd goes wild*


    1-1


    EII - Ne
    5w6 sp/so/sx

  31. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by stanprollyright
    My biggest problem with this thread is that we have no reason to believe your typings of other SLEs,


    You should really see the movie Doubt.





    Quote Originally Posted by stan
    and there is nothing to suggest that SLE is your
    conflictor, per se

    Quite right, these were clearly relations of duality.





    Quote Originally Posted by stan
    at best it describes some sort of negative relationship with
    them that doesn't necessarily have to be conflict.

    Yes, ofc that is possible. All typings are pure conjecture unless otherwise confirmed by proper testing and analysis.


    Call me naive but I do think "bad", out-of-control SLEs are probably the easiest people to type, as the dominant in its unrestrained form seems so obvious and overpowering, at least to someone with as vulnerable function.

    EII - Ne
    5w6 sp/so/sx

  32. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by JWC3
    Oh for sure, but I'm going to go ahead and take my time to think before I
    outright accept some one else's truth.

    J, you are wise beyond your type.

    EII - Ne
    5w6 sp/so/sx

  33. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Solidad
    *I believe you are INFJ* :-)

    Takes one to know one! :wink:





    Quote Originally Posted by Solidad
    I'm sorry for that "damage" :-(


    Please, don't be!

    In retrospect, I regret nothing.

    Without the bad there is no good. This is the nature of the universe. Destruction is merely a form of creation.





    Quote Originally Posted by Sol
    makes me think that you've been in extended
    duress periods in your life that have somewhat affected your true, core type of
    INFJ

    Yes, been through some extremely rough patches. Was forced to adopt/develop behaviours to compensate for weaknesses in those areas, which is, again, another reason people are not buying the INFj thing just yet. As we peel through the layers it may become clearer.





    Quote Originally Posted by Sol
    First off, these are major indications of pressure on your more mellow Fi core
    nature... I'm sorry for that (not being mushy...just empathizing/caring)
    Needless to say, this recognition is greatly appreciated.




    Quote Originally Posted by Sol
    I would be interested to know what your family background is? Which quadra or
    function was dominant in your family? -- the word "forced" sounds Se
    associated--
    Will do a thread on this soon, including parents' types. You are right about the Se influence from the family! Had a lot of that thrown in my face from birth.





    Quote Originally Posted by Sol
    it sounds so
    painful to listen to these descriptions -- as you twist & turn through your *true
    nature* to survive in your environment-

    Although, the twisting & turning is, in a sense, our true nature, as it is our leading that compels us to act this way (which is not to say it's easy......as you know, the energy requirement is often enormous, especially in cases of )

    EII - Ne
    5w6 sp/so/sx

  34. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol
    I understand how the Se bravado can manifest (as a last ditch protection) in
    conflicting, stressful situations -- I think the Polr rises up like a flaming
    phoenix, sometimes, to lash out when too much presssure is exerted by outside
    environment

    Yes!!! This is absolutely true!!

    Wow.



    In situations where I've been forced to suppress my leading for extended periods, the eventual result was a sudden explosion of completely irrational and reckless behaviour.

    This has happened to me twice during two major life events / periods of extended suppression (I'm talking months of continued, forced suppression).

    Eventually I just totally snapped, and experienced a complete personality reversal, which was temporary but devastating.


    In fact, these events may have permanently altered (strengthened??) my function to a certain degree, which may partly explain why some people are getting Beta vibes.



    I can say with certainty that those difficult experiences were life-changing. They taught me to be much more aggressive and assertive in stating my position and fighting for what I believe in.

    But, here's the kicker. My ALWAYS tells me when this assertion is appropriate or not. It will never let me use in a way that deliberately hurts anyone or endangers my agenda (except in those two instances where I snapped, in which case went out the window completely).





    Quote Originally Posted by Sol
    Well don't fall for the sanctimoniousness or
    guilt-trips by those who think you are weak or silly for being caring/pluming the
    internal soul/ or worrying about other people's feelings

    Lol, yeah, this used to be a problem when I was younger, not so much anymore, now that I understand that this is just my "thang" and simply needs to be accepted for what it is.

    EII - Ne
    5w6 sp/so/sx

  35. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverchris
    Why don't you
    like offending people?

    Hmm........offending is probably not the best word. In fact, I don't mind offending people per se, provided that this is done in order to achieve some higher ethical purpose and make what I believe to be some kind of moral point.

    For example, for Halloween two years ago I dressed up in a catholic monk costume and plastered anti-prop 8 stickers all over myself, then walked through parts of LA, making an obvious statement. A bunch of people hated it, but this was precisely the point.

    (Actually, this was not my idea, it was my IEI ex and his IEI friend who came up with the whole crazy thing, I was kind of dragged along but happy to be part of it, lol.)


    I will not offend people for the mere sake of being offensive or shocking, which strikes me as stupid.

    EII - Ne
    5w6 sp/so/sx

  36. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stan
    I think his overall obnoxious
    demeanor and pomposity, along with his complete disregard for whom he
    offends seems very beta.

    ....he proclaims in a completely obnoxious and pompous tone.


    Seems like the only person being offended here is you?


    Stan, I'm not disregarding you, just pulling your leg every now and then.
    I do value your input, in case there was any Doubt about that.



    What you perceive as pomposity is just me trying to explain myself as clearly as possible.

    EII - Ne
    5w6 sp/so/sx

  37. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stan
    And even though he proclaims to have SLE as his
    conflictor, he's been getting along pretty well with SLEs and other betas on this
    forum.

    I have a lot of Betas in my life. I've learned how to get along with them without getting my knickers in a knot, lol.

    EII - Ne
    5w6 sp/so/sx

  38. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverchris9
    On the other hand, he seems awfully Fe for a delta... (sorry to
    talk about you in the third person shagbad).

    No problem. I have a lot of IEIs and ESEs in my life, which could explain things a bit.

    Proficiency in should not raise too many suspicions, the important thing is that it ultimately serves purposes. As a lecturer, I have learned to use somewhat as a tool for capturing and holding peoples' attention, which has kind of spilled over into other areas of my life a bit. I'm not as inhibited now as I was growing up.

    does tend to exhaust me a bit after a while.

    EII - Ne
    5w6 sp/so/sx

  39. #39

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    @Ryu and JW:

    I will need to give the dual thing some thought and get back to you.

    As for role models, Jeremy Irons has always been someone I've admired, long before I even knew about socionics. He has a grace and eloquence that I find inspiring. I thought he was awesome in the Time Machine and Man in the Iron Mask to name a few. (Eragon and D&D sucked, ofc, but not because of him).

    EII - Ne
    5w6 sp/so/sx

  40. #40
    Creepy-Cyclops

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Solidad View Post
    I actually get a feeling that wizard is somewhere in the grey area of the Kinsey scale.

    Alfred Kinsey and the Kinsey Scale: Sexual Orientation and the Grey Area Between Gay and Straight
    Well, homosexuality was encouraged among the Spartans for instance, but, as I understand it, it was encouraged more for bonding among the men and that they were away from the women folk so much.

    Most people fall in the middle? I suppose it's possible, but, I personally think that most people (ie not the bisexuals) and that is majority of people, prefer one sex over the other.

    For example, on a night out, there are plenty of girls that catch my eye, but I don't notice the guys or just think they're in the way if they happen to be too good looking haha.


    Quote Originally Posted by Shagbag The Wizard View Post
    LOL @Cyclops, that was awesome, I nearly spewed.

    Curious to know what seems DEFINITELY gay in my posts, though, LOLOL.
    Haha, dunno, you seem very out there, i'll maybe try and look through the posts later to see if I can quantify it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shagbag The Wizard
    Hmm........offending is probably not the best word. In fact, I don't mind offending people per se, provided that this is done in order to achieve some higher ethical purpose and make what I believe to be some kind of moral point.

    For example, for Halloween two years ago I dressed up in a catholic monk costume and plastered anti-prop 8 stickers all over myself, then walked through parts of LA, making an obvious statement. A bunch of people hated it, but this was precisely the point.
    Could you elaborate on what higher ethical purpose you achieved by your example.

    It's interesting, with my INFj friend (male), if he tried to dress up like that, i'd find it extremely bizarre and attention seeking (it would to me seem uncomfortable for an INFj, and an ISTp for that matter to attract so much attention to themselves). However, I could imagine some ENFp's I know *maybe* pulling off a stunt like that.

    So i'm also curious, are you really a real person? There's been a spate of one persons creating multiple accounts recently. If you are a real person, the picture you posted of yourself, you may recall I said you look like a chef. What came to mind was Gary Rhodes, who's a chef and appears to be ENFp.

    Perhaps you're ENFp, or of course some other type?

    Oh, to sort of confirm something I mentioned at the start of this post, although it's a later example, this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Shagbag the Wizard
    For example, for Halloween two years ago I dressed up in a catholic monk costume and plastered anti-prop 8 stickers all over myself, then walked through parts of LA, making an obvious statement. A bunch of people hated it, but this was precisely the point.
    To me hardly sounds like straight male behaviour, not likely behaviour ime unless they are gay or high attention seeking. As a side note, whether that sort of behaviour is related to gay men being more comfortable with themselves in comparison to straight men, or if it's actually some biological trigger involved in the differences in behaviour... I suspect it's a bit of both.

    I suppose a straight male ENFp could be more likely to do that, at a stretch and maybe somewhere in the middle of that scale posted earlier........

    But, also, you live in SA? You're moving to ... somewhere else, you've been to LA, and you are a ... teacher... I think you said? (maybe not), you sure do get around, in general and especially for an INFj ime of them. Interesting, even with type aside.

    Oh yeah, the name you chose, it's pretty gay.

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