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Thread: I've been doing some thinking today

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    Default I've been doing some thinking today

    And this rang especially true for me (via wikisocion):

    Beta romantic relationships tend to start from intense exchanges of emotions, either of a playful, aggressive sort, or of a more "tormented" sort based on personal images of special meaning, "romantic" in a 19th-century sense. The two sorts merge together to make Beta the quadra most inclined towards "romantic courtship" in the everyday sense of the term. A relationship is felt to be "lacking" if not accompanied by intense demonstrations of emotions. Romantic relationships are also held together by a sense of common goals and purpose, and of the other person as the best partner towards achieving them. Betas are the most intense of all quadras in terms of exchanges of emotional and sensual interplay.
    Especially the bolded part. Don't hate me for questioning my type again, please. I'm actually willing to listen this time if proper reasons are given as to why I might belong here. I mean, for example...the extreme lack of the above bolded part is pretty much ruining my current relationship. I know it's regarded as 'wrong' to go by type descriptions, but LSI doesn't fit me at all so that's why I've considered it an impossibility to belong here but have been a little more open to it being a possiblity lately due to me identifying so much with the above quote. If LSI weren't my type, what else would be? This is so annoying.

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    Hmm... I don't know. I kind of feel ambivalent about it. What stuck out to me though was the last sentence:

    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129 View Post
    Betas are the most intense of all quadras in terms of exchanges of emotional and sensual interplay.
    The bolded part in particular. I don't think I 'd ever mind intensity in that area.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Can you describe what you mean by intense demonstrations of emotion? Because I find that rings true for both LSI and SLI in their own way. I don't want to plant suggestions in your head in examining the difference so it would be awesome to hear it from your perspective. Specific examples or just kind of qualifying/quantifying it generally would be equally useful. Whatever you prefer.

    Hope I can help!
    ILE
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    Very busy with work. Only kind of around.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parkster View Post
    Hmm... I don't know. I kind of feel ambivalent about it. What stuck out to me though was the last sentence:


    The bolded part in particular. I don't think I 'd ever mind intensity in that area.
    A lot of people probobly wouldn't but when I look at past relationships, they've all ended because there was a complete lack of the mentioned emotional intensity. I mean...I can't handle it. It was always myself who seemed to be the more "intense" one and the one who needed more outward demonstrations than they could give.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vero View Post
    Can you describe what you mean by intense demonstrations of emotion? Because I find that rings true for both LSI and SLI in their own way. I don't want to plant suggestions in your head in examining the difference so it would be awesome to hear it from your perspective. Specific examples or just kind of qualifying/quantifying it generally would be equally useful. Whatever you prefer.

    Hope I can help!
    Well basically what I said to Parkster. I've refrained from debating my type because it's intimidating that I don't know nearly as much as most of you know about socionics. I can explain it in really simple terms, I'm not sure if it'll help.

    I basically mean that if there is no outward demonstration of emotion or verbal reassurance as to how they feel about me, it's basically not going to go anywhere and it's pointless to try and salvage things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129 View Post
    A lot of people probobly wouldn't but when I look at past relationships, they've all ended because there was a complete lack of the mentioned emotional intensity. I mean...I can't handle it. It was always myself who seemed to be the more "intense" one and the one who needed more outward demonstrations than they could give.
    I am the same way, but I'm not exactly sure if "emotions" are the focus of the intensity I project and am looking for. I think it's more about maximizing sensuality, positive energy and optimism; or just keeping things alive and interesting. But yeah, I guess emotions have their part here, too, in the sense that they evoke and stimulate this intensity.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129 View Post
    I basically mean that if there is no outward demonstration of emotion or verbal reassurance as to how they feel about me, it's basically not going to go anywhere and it's pointless to try and salvage things.
    I don't think I need direct verbal reassurance, but I do need to know these things (and have them visible through communication, though not just verbal). But if there's a significant lack of demonstration, I feel like I have to "assume" how things stand, and I always assume they are bad, or that there's nothing there.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parkster View Post
    I don't think I need direct verbal reassurance, but I do need to know these things (and have them visible through communication, though not just verbal). But if there's a significant lack of demonstration, I feel like I have to "assume" how things stand, and I always assume they are bad, or that there's nothing there.
    Maybe this is an E6 thing.

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    In what way does LSI not fit?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129 View Post
    If LSI weren't my type, what else would be?
    I have a very strong opinion of your type. But it would help if you would make a list of forumites you've noticed and for each denote your perception: Same quadra as you, neighboring quadra, opposite quadra. Also whether you'd consider them identicals or any other socionics relation.
    I can take the info as PM if you're shy about making it public, and just post the conclusion.
    Greetings, ragnar
    ILI knowledge-seeker

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    I don't think i'd describe my relationships as having intense demonstrations of emotions, infact, if i've showed these in a relationship, i've felt a bit "bad" about it, like it's wrong and not my normal behaviour.

    But, these wikisocion quotes, I think a person could read them and analyse them till the cows come home and even be in worse position. Maybe you just like emotional displays as a personality trait of sorts, so it's not type related in your case. Of course, maybe you are LSI.

    If I think of something to add to typing you, I will.


    The bolded part:

    Beta romantic relationships tend to start from intense exchanges of emotions, either of a playful, aggressive sort, or of a more "tormented" sort based on personal images of special meaning, "romantic" in a 19th-century sense. The two sorts merge together to make Beta the quadra most inclined towards "romantic courtship" in the everyday sense of the term. A relationship is felt to be "lacking" if not accompanied by intense demonstrations of emotions. Romantic relationships are also held together by a sense of common goals and purpose, and of the other person as the best partner towards achieving them. Betas are the most intense of all quadras in terms of exchanges of emotional and sensual interplay.
    Is that part I can relate to, but, common goals sounds like something that will come up at some point in just about any relationship.

    But I have to say overall, that I don't relate to it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129 View Post
    And this rang especially true for me (via wikisocion):

    Especially the bolded part.
    Jesus christ, well we know for certain you aren't SLI now.

    Don't hate me for questioning my type again, please. I'm actually willing to listen this time if proper reasons are given as to why I might belong here. I mean, for example...the extreme lack of the above bolded part is pretty much ruining my current relationship. I know it's regarded as 'wrong' to go by type descriptions, but LSI doesn't fit me at all so that's why I've considered it an impossibility to belong here but have been a little more open to it being a possiblity lately due to me identifying so much with the above quote. If LSI weren't my type, what else would be? This is so annoying.
    I suppose you could be one of the Beta Irrationals. I would lean ST>NF for you generally, so perhaps SLE-Ti?

    I think if you've been in Delta this long, you probably need to do some more research in the realm of the functions/IM elements; I think that might help clear up the fact that you seem to be operating on stereotypical misconceptions of what the types are like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Jesus christ, well we know for certain you aren't SLI now.



    I suppose you could be one of the Beta Irrationals. I would lean ST>NF for you generally, so perhaps SLE-Ti?

    I think if you've been in Delta this long, you probably need to do some more research in the realm of the functions/IM elements; I think that might help clear up the fact that you seem to be operating on stereotypical misconceptions of what the types are like.
    Nah. Jessica is ISTp (SLI). Hey, it's not easy, but it is the best type. You hang in there Jessica. We are good at most things, just not this.
    ISTp
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    Enneagram 5 with a side of wings.

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    Did you read what she posted? She's not a fucking Delta. Beta? Probably. Gamma? Conceivable. But not Delta.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Did you read what she posted? She's not a fucking Delta. Beta? Probably. Gamma? Conceivable. But not Delta.
    Jessica is in a bad place today. She is SLI. We are not without emotions.
    ISTp
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    Enneagram 5 with a side of wings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129 View Post
    This is so annoying.
    Well let me bust this myth:

    YOU DON'T NEED TO HAVE Fe IN YOUR EGO TO BE EMOTIONAL.

    It's like saying, you can't think if you aren't an Thinking type.

    I recently dumped an ENFP friend of mine because of his constant emotional upset. My mom met him once, and she said, wow is that a sensitive person. I personally think he's some kind of borderliner. Perfect if you want an emotional rollercoaster as a boyfriend.

    SLI's can be very emotional on the inside.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobo View Post
    Maybe this is an E6 thing.
    I'm not a 6.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Well, I'm not going to say yay or nay on your type. But if you're not happy in your current relationship, pleasepleaseplease don't get married thinking it might go away on its own. If you are SLI, it's illusionary, and the description of "a relationship that promises much but never delivers" is precisely what I feel for ILIs. It seems close but at the same time feels like you never truly connect. My dad is ILI, so I have 30 years' worth of analyzing this. Trust me, not gonna change.

    Once upon a time, I thought I needed a more demonstrative relationship as well - when I was with my SLI ex - but it was really the fact that we had different lifestyles and friend groups, and I was feeling insecure. I met another SLI and found that the demonstrative stuff didn't matter at all with him because we had been friends for so long and had a really great connection. Those things that I thought were important didn't matter because our friendship was so good.

    So it's possible that it's not necessarily strong emotions that need to be demonstrated, but you're feeling the gulf that exists between yourself and your SO.

    Or you could be LSI.

    Just some food for thought. Be careful of pegging your type to a lack of something in your relationship. Sometimes it IS because of differences in type, sometimes it's due to other factors. Those things can happen even in duality.

    Anyway, I would encourage you to read about the functions and really try to get to the bottom of them.
    IEE

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    I think tiny_dancer makes good points above. Aside from that I'll go ahead and throw in my two cents to say that I think Jessica129 is SLI.

    Passion =/= Fe, and passion-valuing =/= Fe-valuing.

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    so, I don't really have an opinion on Jessica's type but, as far as ISTps and emotions, I think they do like clear demonstrations of Fi. Things that tell them they are in a relationship, wanted, appreciated, cared about, admired, etc. That can come across in many ways, actions, expressions, jokes, words, etc.

    As for intensity...

    In Beta (and please realize this is my own limited take on this -- not some universal truth) they'd be said with a lot of intricate language, powerfully spoken, declarations, in a moving sort of intense way. For instance, some ENFjs I've known make me want to call in a film crew to document their relationships because you could basically throw it onto a movie screen and it'd be fascinating. And it'd probably sell well at the theatres too.

    In Delta it'd be less intense, and would make more of a light indy film that may bore people a bit, and probably wouldn't be a blockbuster. However, I know I have definite "moments" of intensity that I sometimes regret, but usually don't. I might throw an occasional tantrum if something really bothers me, or perhaps a late night drunken call saying "I looooovee you!!! I've lost my pillow. where did it gooooo!?" I also will be intense here and there if I feel something Fi is on the line. I want to clear things up and make sure the relationship is strong. But most of the time, I'm pretty boring-ish and non-intense and don't talk directly about feelings. I even cringe trying to respond to facebook posts because it can be hard to use the right amount of Fe.

    But, I do think SLIs like Fe directed at them in a positive way because it clearly says "I like you!" And it's hard for them to read that otherwise. They also like Fi directed at them in a clear way.

    So, something like, clearing up whether you're exclusive, or changing your facebook status, etc,., I think they really like.

    Any positive emotions they can understand, they will like. So I can see the confusion. I don't think this helped clear it up though!
    Hi! I'm an ENFP. :-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by tiny_dancer View Post
    Well, I'm not going to say yay or nay on your type. But if you're not happy in your current relationship, pleasepleaseplease don't get married thinking it might go away on its own. If you are SLI, it's illusionary, and the description of "a relationship that promises much but never delivers" is precisely what I feel for ILIs. It seems close but at the same time feels like you never truly connect. My dad is ILI, so I have 30 years' worth of analyzing this. Trust me, not gonna change.
    Great point. Socionics isn't another bullshit psychology theory invented by some guys on the net. Probably the best sociological system there is, marriage isn't bullshit either, you should consider Socionics in marriage.
    (D)IEE~FI-(C)SLE~Ni E-5w4(Sp/Sx)/7w8(So/Sp)/9w1(sp/sx)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    1)
    A girl who I want to date, asks me: well first tell me how tall you are?
    My reply: well I will answer that, if you first tell me how much you weigh!

    2)
    A girl I was dating said she was oh so great at sex etc, but she didn't do blowjobs.
    My reply: Oh I'm really romantic etc, I just will never take you out to dinner.

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    Not LSI, mainly because George doesn't need the encouragement.

    I've always thought that we physically look similar, though.

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    We do need our polr taken care of, I think. Just not overtly expressed; you need it done sort of subtly, unconsciously, in the way that the dual deals with that function.

    I would agree that desire for passion doesn't have to = Fe-valuing. I mean, yes, if you want a relationship of grand and dramatic passion, then, yes, that points to beta; but if you just want a relationship where you don't feel like you care more than the other person, that you're more emotionally invested than the other person, that's entirely in keeping with your current self-typing.

    Blockbuster movie vs. indie movie is a good description actually. For instance, Titanic (as much as I hate that movie) is a huge massive explosion of romanticness, and I don't just mean when he's about to die and all that business. I mean when he paints her naked for instance. That's an intense, emotionally fraught/powerful moment. By contrast, there's Away We Go, which is still a very emotional movie, but which packs a different kind of emotional punch. It's not as dramatic and grande. It's more about humans learning how to get on in the world and get a little bit of happiness. You know, the beauty of the practical. Betas are more likely to go in for overwhelming, epic spectacles of outpouring passion and thunder crashing on the heath. Showing up at your apartment drenched it rain, begging to be let in, then sitting on your couch in tense, fraught silence before the tension overwhelms both of you and you have violent, passionate, knock-stuff-off-your-coffee-table sex.

    What I mean is, betas like the big, splashy moments, what people used to call the sublime. We live for those moments and pursue them in various ways, even if just by listening to loud music (but more than loud music, romantic music, in the 19th century sense; not pleasant music, but music where there is a huge buildup of tension and a dramatic release).

    Deltas still want clear expressions of romantic interest. Everybody wants to feel loved, feel like there's something in them that their romantic partner values (that is eros after all, finding something desirable in the beloved). But their demonstrations of passion (Fe) are more like great wellings-up of feeling (Fi) which are felt moreso than manifested. They are more satisfied by more subtle things. "Buy me a rose/on the way home from work/open the door for me, what could it hurt?" is a delta sentiment (not saying it applies to you in particular, but in general). Those sorts of things indicate a bond, indicate effort, indicate that the other person cares. That's the sort of demonstrations of passion deltas tend to prefer: something that assures them that the other person is in the relationship to the same degree that they are.

    Betas want (what seems to us like) more than that. "Buy me a rose on the way home from work" doesn't cut it. That's not dramatic enough. We want something with more panache, more flair, more fire. Dramatic tension, all that. I get the feeling that deltas, especially SLIs like to keep tension to a minimum.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129 View Post
    And this rang especially true for me (via wikisocion):

    Especially the bolded part. Don't hate me for questioning my type again, please. I'm actually willing to listen this time if proper reasons are given as to why I might belong here. I mean, for example...the extreme lack of the above bolded part is pretty much ruining my current relationship. I know it's regarded as 'wrong' to go by type descriptions, but LSI doesn't fit me at all so that's why I've considered it an impossibility to belong here but have been a little more open to it being a possiblity lately due to me identifying so much with the above quote. If LSI weren't my type, what else would be? This is so annoying.
    Well that quote there is pretty much a good sign that a) you're Fe valuing and b) you're sure as shit not Fe PoLR.

    Anything else you want to share?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    I recently dumped an ENFP friend of mine because of his constant emotional upset. My mom met him once, and she said, wow is that a sensitive person. I personally think he's some kind of borderliner. Perfect if you want an emotional rollercoaster as a boyfriend.
    You're a woman?

    SLI's can be very emotional on the inside.
    So? She wants outward displays of emotion. How is that Fe PoLR at all?

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    jarno is girl?

    But yeah, basically Fe-PoLRs need outward expression, but it must be rooted in Fi. Fe is just a means in the case of serious irrationals.
    3w4-5w6-9w8

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azeroffs View Post
    jarno is girl?

    But yeah, basically Fe-PoLRs need outward expression, but it must be rooted in Fi. Fe is just a means in the case of serious irrationals.
    No come on now, that's bollocks.

    What she has just said is that she feels affinity with the Aggressor/Victim dynamic. Don't try to rationalise it. Accept that she likes Fe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Accept that she likes Fe.
    I refuse.. lol idk.. maybe.

    Really though, I think it needs more explanation. Just liking expression of emotion doesn't quite cut it. Fe is more than that. I also find xEEs to be quite expressive so...
    It's funny how people are selective of whether or not something is indicative of type. If someone said they liked efficiency no one would say 'Oh, you're Te valuing then.' If you want to base her typing on other factors, then I have nothing to say either way.
    Last edited by Azeroffs; 02-11-2010 at 04:25 AM.
    3w4-5w6-9w8

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    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    For instance, Titanic (as much as I hate that movie)
    HA--I thought I was the only one in the world who hated that movie.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thePirate View Post
    stuff
    Hmm... I don't know Jessica(therestofherusername) very well, but I think I will have to rely on my old standby defense of "words are confusing; people are complex". That is, while, yes, the quotation in the OP does indicate Fe seeking, it could very well be that the kind of behavior that the author intended the words to refer to could be a different kind of behavior than what she is envisioning or what she would enjoy. So I don't think we should dismiss the possibility of her being delta out of hand. If indeed she is beta and has thought she is delta for a long time, as gilly said, there is probably some serious confusion about the functions going on. It is at least as likely jessica(therestofherusername) is applying a description normally applied to Fe to something else as that she has vastly misunderstood many of the information elements.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

  31. #31
    jessica129's Avatar
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    I'm so confused, make it stop.

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    You're a Beta. Stop being confused about it.

  33. #33
    Snomunegot munenori2's Avatar
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    Well the first thing I would do is not worry about some ridiculous ass letters re: your self identity. If you're doing what feels right, there's no problem. If you're not, hit up home base, relax, and everything will be alright.
    Moonlight will fall
    Winter will end
    Harvest will come
    Your heart will mend

  34. #34
    Creepy-Pied Piper

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    Removed at User Request

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    well.. i myself was completely convinced i was INTp. and now look at me. such a mind blower..
    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    Well let me bust this myth:

    YOU DON'T NEED TO HAVE Fe IN YOUR EGO TO BE EMOTIONAL.

    It's like saying, you can't think if you aren't an Thinking type.

    I recently dumped an ENFP friend of mine because of his constant emotional upset. My mom met him once, and she said, wow is that a sensitive person. I personally think he's some kind of borderliner. Perfect if you want an emotional rollercoaster as a boyfriend.

    SLI's can be very emotional on the inside.
    so you are gay? or are you a woman? i thought you were a man..
    there's one more person on the gay list.
    INTp

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    Well the first thing I would do is not worry about some ridiculous ass letters re: your self identity. If you're doing what feels right, there's no problem. If you're not, hit up home base, relax, and everything will be alright.
    Yeah, I know...it's just...ARGH. It's like this stupid neverending cycle that deep down i know it doesn't mean anything because I am who I am but then oh look...I get bored and read these stupid descriptions and think maybe there's some truth to it. B&D put it really well in one of his posts that summed it all up...where is that post..

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    ragnar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129 View Post
    I'm so confused, make it stop.
    Am I right in classifying this as a Fe non-native Fe game?
    Greetings, ragnar
    ILI knowledge-seeker

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinocchio View Post
    Never saw LSIs and SLIs behaving like "hey guys wake up *slap|slap*" aka BOLD PANIC SPREE!

    My opinion is SLE.
    lol. SLE made a million times more sense than LSI but we won't even go there.

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    LOL, why not??
    IEI-Fe 4w3

  40. #40
    without the nose Cyrano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129 View Post
    I'm so confused, make it stop.
    Breathe Jessica breathe. It's going to be OK.
    ISTp
    SLI

    Enneagram 5 with a side of wings.

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